It looks like that genuine "Apollo" capsule never was in space.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Recently, an honest and good-natured RE'er, namely frenat, most kindly provided me with a detailed image of a genuine "Apollo" flown capsule. Just look at those nice stainless steel handles, attached by some rivets or screws. They are good and reliable, no doubt. I have similar in my bathroom.

Now look here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_entry
It says:
"a spacecraft entering the atmosphere at 7.8 km/s would experience a peak shock layer temperature of 7,800 K."
Which is, if I'm not mistaken, 7800-273 = 7,527 C.

Now look here:
http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=103
It says:
Melting temperature ranges for stainless steels...
And gives a table with the highest range at 1,530 C

I digged the Net, and they believe that boiling temperature range for stainless steel is about 3,000 C. Check it yourself.

Thus, it seems very likely that if this Apollo capsule were in space, then during the atmospheric entry those nice stainless-steel handles would be instantly melted or even evaporized, and blown away by the refreshing wind at 7,800 m/s or so, with the temperature around 7,500 C. Then, the hot plasma with such extreme temperature would get into the "spaceship" through the holes in the body of the "spaceship", needed to attach the handles with the rivets or screws. So, the "crew" would likely arrive back to Earth in the form of ashes.

Anyway, there would be no handles on the body of the "spaceship".

Conclusion: based on what I see, this "Apollo capsule" most likely has never been to space.

Thank you for your attention.

Dixi.

You should have  looked up how the heat shield works, before jumping to false conclusions.

On the same page he quoted the temperature there is this quote

If the reentry vehicle is made blunt, air cannot "get out of the way" quickly enough, and acts as an air cushion to push the shock wave and heated shock layer forward (away from the vehicle). Since most of the hot gases are no longer in direct contact with the vehicle, the heat energy would stay in the shocked gas and simply move around the vehicle to later dissipate into the atmosphere.

So the space craft does not come in direct contact with air that temp.  But that would have required him to read.

You should have  looked up how the heat shield works, before jumping to false conclusions.

Dear Sir,

May I ask you, where is the heat shield on those nice bright handles?
 

I see none.

So, please enlighten me, what protected the handles during the atmospheric entry?

 

So, please enlighten me, what protected the handles during the atmospheric entry?

The bow shock.

7.8km/s without spinning, now that's what I call awesome.

7.8km/s without spinning, now that's what I call awesome.

Clearly you're the expert, so maybe you can just explain the aerodynamics for us!
In the meantime :
Unmanned re-entry vehicles (eg ballistic missiles) can be spin stabilised, but a manned obviously cannot have a rapid spin!

from: https://www.quora.com/During-ballistic-re-entry-why-does-a-space-capsule-or-MIRV-rotate-on-its-axis
Lift Control
The Apollo capsules did not actively spin, but they were rolled to adjust the lift on the capsule.  The center of mass was not at the geometric center, so rolling the vehicle a little would change the lift vector

]

Apollo Command Module
flying at a high angle of attack for
lifting entry, artistic rendition.

Dear rabinoz and markjo,

Thank you very much for your contribution. As you can see yourself, the "Apollo Command Module" is "flying at a high angle of attack for lifting entry", essentially making markjo's remark irrevelant. That extremely hot flame is obviously covering the body of the "spaceship", exactly at the location of the handles.

If I'm not mistaken, 7,800 K is much hotter then the Sun (6000 K, according to RET), and 7800 m/s is 7800/330 =23,6 times faster than sound. 24M!!!

Now, let's have a closer look at the picture:

Do you see the handles?
  

Hi Humble Scientist,

You raise an interesting point,   where did the handles go,   I've seen pictures of the Apollo Command Module with and without handles,  the pictures without handles,  show what looks like attachment points for a handle.   

I suspect the handles are only fitted for ground operations,  and removed for flight purposes.

It will be interesting to see if anyone knows the full story.

A quick look at Apollo recovery pictures,  I see some without handles,  others not so clear,  none clearly showing handles that I could see. 

Apollo Command Module
flying at a high angle of attack for
lifting entry, artistic rendition.

Dear rabinoz and markjo,

Thank you very much for your contribution. As you can see yourself, the "Apollo Command Module" is "flying at a high angle of attack for lifting entry", essentially making markjo's remark irrevelant. That extremely hot flame is obviously covering the body of the "spaceship", exactly at the location of the handles.

If I'm not mistaken, 7,800 K is much hotter then the Sun (6000 K, according to RET), and 7800 m/s is 7800/330 =23,6 times faster than sound. 24M!!!

Now, let's have a closer look at the picture:

Do you see the handles?
  

I see an "artistic rendition" (you even posted that it was yourself), not a picture of the capsule, that you are for some strange reason looking for handles on and also for some strange reason thinking it depicts exactly how the air moves around the capsule.  Markjo earlier posted a picture from a wind tunnel showing how the air moves around the capsule at high speeds.  Apparently you ignored that because it doesn't fit your world view?

I see an "artistic rendition" (you even posted that it was yourself), not a picture of the capsule, that you are for some strange reason looking for handles on and also for some strange reason thinking it depicts exactly how the air moves around the capsule.  Markjo earlier posted a picture from a wind tunnel showing how the air moves around the capsule at high speeds.  Apparently you ignored that because it doesn't fit your world view?

Dear frenat,
Initially, I borrowed the picture from your own post, here:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=65578.msg1751966#msg1751966

If you think the picture is irrevelant, why did you post it?
 

Quote from: frenat on January 24, 2016, 05:52:32 AM

I see an "artistic rendition" (you even posted that it was yourself), not a picture of the capsule, that you are for some strange reason looking for handles on and also for some strange reason thinking it depicts exactly how the air moves around the capsule.  Markjo earlier posted a picture from a wind tunnel showing how the air moves around the capsule at high speeds.  Apparently you ignored that because it doesn't fit your world view?

Dear frenat,
Initially, I borrowed the picture from your own post, here:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=65578.msg1751966#msg1751966

If you think the picture is irrevelant, why did you post it?
 

That is Rabinoz's post, not mine.  Please learn to read.  And it STILL says artistic rendition.  So the question STILL remains why you think it should show all details like handles or get exactly right how the air flows around the capsule.  And there is STILL the issue of the wind tunnel photo posted by Markjo that shows the bow shock does not come into contact with the craft and the description I posted from YOUR source that describes how and why the bow shock does not come into contact with the capsule.

Quote from: Humble_Scientist on January 24, 2016, 06:35:23 AM

Quote from: frenat on January 24, 2016, 05:52:32 AM

I see an "artistic rendition" (you even posted that it was yourself), not a picture of the capsule, that you are for some strange reason looking for handles on and also for some strange reason thinking it depicts exactly how the air moves around the capsule.  Markjo earlier posted a picture from a wind tunnel showing how the air moves around the capsule at high speeds.  Apparently you ignored that because it doesn't fit your world view?

Dear frenat,
Initially, I borrowed the picture from your own post, here:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=65578.msg1751966#msg1751966

If you think the picture is irrevelant, why did you post it?
 

That is Rabinoz's post, not mine.  Please learn to read.  And it STILL says artistic rendition.  So the question STILL remains why you think it should show all details like handles or get exactly right how the air flows around the capsule.  And there is STILL the issue of the wind tunnel photo posted by Markjo that shows the bow shock does not come into contact with the craft and the description I posted from YOUR source that describes how and why the bow shock does not come into contact with the capsule.

Oops, sorry. My mistake. But it was a good post, anyway. And the picture is good. And I've already answered that Markjo's picture is less relevant, and why. Now

"Please learn to read."
 

Quote from: frenat on January 24, 2016, 07:04:15 AM

Quote from: Humble_Scientist on January 24, 2016, 06:35:23 AM

Quote from: frenat on January 24, 2016, 05:52:32 AM

I see an "artistic rendition" (you even posted that it was yourself), not a picture of the capsule, that you are for some strange reason looking for handles on and also for some strange reason thinking it depicts exactly how the air moves around the capsule.  Markjo earlier posted a picture from a wind tunnel showing how the air moves around the capsule at high speeds.  Apparently you ignored that because it doesn't fit your world view?

Dear frenat,
Initially, I borrowed the picture from your own post, here:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=65578.msg1751966#msg1751966

If you think the picture is irrevelant, why did you post it?
 

That is Rabinoz's post, not mine.  Please learn to read.  And it STILL says artistic rendition.  So the question STILL remains why you think it should show all details like handles or get exactly right how the air flows around the capsule.  And there is STILL the issue of the wind tunnel photo posted by Markjo that shows the bow shock does not come into contact with the craft and the description I posted from YOUR source that describes how and why the bow shock does not come into contact with the capsule.

Oops, sorry. My mistake. But it was a good post, anyway. And the picture is good. And I've already answered that Markjo's picture is less relevant, and why. Now

And that is your problem.  Markjo's post show reality.  The picture you reposted is still an artistic rendition that you were asking where the handles were and assuming its depiction of the bow shock was more realistic. 

"Please learn to read."
 

You first.  I'm not the one making judgments based on something an artist drew.  You've been shown why the temperatures in the bow shock do not come in contact with the craft and discarded that info in favor of a pretty picture.

And that is your problem.  Markjo's post show reality.  The picture you reposted is still an artistic rendition that you were asking where the handles were and assuming its depiction of the bow shock was more realistic. 

Quote from: Humble_Scientist on January 24, 2016, 10:52:46 AM

"Please learn to read."
 

You first.  I'm not the one making judgments based on something an artist drew.  You've been shown why the temperatures in the bow shock do not come in contact with the craft and discarded that info in favor of a pretty picture.

Dear frenat,

Why don't you ask Markjo himself what his picture shows? And what are the temperatures?

On the contrary, that Wiki article gives you the details, including the temperature that the spaceship has to endure. It says that the spaceship returning to Earth would enter the atmosphere at certain angle (as opposed to Markjo's picture, which seems to show some test), and shows (just look at the picture) that the spaceship does contact the hot air. That is why they apply the shield, by the way.

Think about that. If, as you wrote, "the temperatures in the bow shock do not come in contact with the craft", there would be no need for the heat shield, correct?

Yes, the picture's an artistic rendition, so what? Or do you think Wikipedia posts false pictures?
 

Go to this website to see a picture of Apollo 9 capsule being lifted out of the water onto a ship. The picture has a small green box you can move around to see a magnified view of the capsule. It clearly shows the handles attached.
http://fineartamerica.com/featured/the-apollo-9-command-module-is-hoisted-stocktrek-images.html 

Go to this website to see a picture of Apollo 9 capsule being lifted out of the water onto a ship. The picture has a small green box you can move around to see a magnified view of the capsule. It clearly shows the handles attached.
http://fineartamerica.com/featured/the-apollo-9-command-module-is-hoisted-stocktrek-images.html 

I see no handles on the scorched side of the craft. only on the un-scorched side, I wonder why that might be??

Quote from: Yendor on January 24, 2016, 01:09:33 PM

Go to this website to see a picture of Apollo 9 capsule being lifted out of the water onto a ship. The picture has a small green box you can move around to see a magnified view of the capsule. It clearly shows the handles attached.
http://fineartamerica.com/featured/the-apollo-9-command-module-is-hoisted-stocktrek-images.html 

I see no handles on the scorched side of the craft. only on the un-scorched side, I wonder why that might be??

Okay, here is apollo 13, is this look scorched enough to you?

Please don't intentionally post miniature models and then claim they are real. That is dishonest.

It looks like a model to me, a good one, but the lack of details on the upper part and in general the colors and the metallic finish does seem to belong to a model rather than to the real thing

Quote from: frenat on January 24, 2016, 10:59:44 AM

And that is your problem.  Markjo's post show reality.  The picture you reposted is still an artistic rendition that you were asking where the handles were and assuming its depiction of the bow shock was more realistic. 

Quote from: Humble_Scientist on January 24, 2016, 10:52:46 AM

"Please learn to read."
 

You first.  I'm not the one making judgments based on something an artist drew.  You've been shown why the temperatures in the bow shock do not come in contact with the craft and discarded that info in favor of a pretty picture.

Dear frenat,

Why don't you ask Markjo himself what his picture shows? And what are the temperatures?

the post shows a self described artistic rendition.  Do you know what those words mean or are you just trolling at this point?

On the contrary, that Wiki article gives you the details, including the temperature that the spaceship has to endure. It says that the spaceship returning to Earth would enter the atmosphere at certain angle (as opposed to Markjo's picture, which seems to show some test), and shows (just look at the picture) that the spaceship does contact the hot air. That is why they apply the shield, by the way.

That SAME reference says the bow shock does not contact the craft.  YOUR reference.  Perhaps YOU should have read it before posting it.

Think about that. If, as you wrote, "the temperatures in the bow shock do not come in contact with the craft", there would be no need for the heat shield, correct?

AGAIN, read YOUR reference.  It explains this and all you're doing is showing you haven't read your own reference.

Yes, the picture's an artistic rendition, so what? Or do you think Wikipedia posts false pictures?
 

do you know what an artist is?  Are you sure the artist knew the exact angle that should be depicted?  Or exactly how the bow shock would look?  On the other hand you have an ACTUAL picture from a wind tunnel showing ow the bow shock forms and how the air moves around the craft and have chosen to ignore it.  That says more about you than anything else.

Quote from: getrealzommb on January 24, 2016, 01:16:09 PM

Quote from: Yendor on January 24, 2016, 01:09:33 PM

Go to this website to see a picture of Apollo 9 capsule being lifted out of the water onto a ship. The picture has a small green box you can move around to see a magnified view of the capsule. It clearly shows the handles attached.
http://fineartamerica.com/featured/the-apollo-9-command-module-is-hoisted-stocktrek-images.html 

I see no handles on the scorched side of the craft. only on the un-scorched side, I wonder why that might be??

Okay, here is apollo 13, is this look scorched enough to you?

That is a miniature. The original version of the pic is here
http://universalentertainment.tumblr.com/post/25170935865/apollo-13-1995-miniature-command-module-this

you can easily find pages where images can be found if you are using Chrome.  Just right click on the image and select "Search Google for image".  I assume you were unaware it was a miniature when you posted it but I could be wrong.

Quote from: getrealzommb on January 24, 2016, 01:16:09 PM

Quote from: Yendor on January 24, 2016, 01:09:33 PM

Go to this website to see a picture of Apollo 9 capsule being lifted out of the water onto a ship. The picture has a small green box you can move around to see a magnified view of the capsule. It clearly shows the handles attached.
http://fineartamerica.com/featured/the-apollo-9-command-module-is-hoisted-stocktrek-images.html 

I see no handles on the scorched side of the craft. only on the un-scorched side, I wonder why that might be??

Okay, here is apollo 13, is this look scorched enough to you?

Nice model. Rodney (yendor) why are you posting fakes? why are you being deceptive??? you deliberately lie to us!
I suspect you are a shill!

yendor's creadibility is now not ZERO!

On the real thing.....re entry is survivable, testimony to 7 years of research and development of the heat shield and aerodynamics. Some humans are very clever, some not so..


http://www.astronautix.com/craft/csmhield.htm

Quote from: Humble_Scientist on January 24, 2016, 05:11:48 AM Quote from: Humble_Scientist Dear rabinoz and markjo, Thank you very much for your contribution. As you can see yourself, the "Apollo Command Module" is "flying at a high angle of attack for lifting entry", essentially making markjo's remark irrevelant. That extremely hot flame is obviously covering the body of the "spaceship", exactly at the location of the handles. If I'm not mistaken, 7,800 K is much hotter then the Sun (6000 K, according to RET), and 7800 m/s is 7800/330 =23,6 times faster than sound. 24M!!! Far from "essentially making markjo's remark irrevelant.", just see later how his remarks were extremely relevant!

Apollo Command Module flying at a high angle of attack for lifting entry, artistic rendition.

You claim "'flying at a high angle of attack for lifting entry', essentially making markjo's remark irrevelant. That extremely hot flame is obviously covering the body of the "spaceship", exactly at the location of the handles." If you had noted the image on the right of the airflow around a capsule shaped test object, you would have noted the shock wave extending out fro the heat shield.  The highest temperature air and heat shield fragments are diverted away from the vehicle! You might have noted the wording in the reference (from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_entry) "For example, a spacecraft entering the atmosphere at 7.8 km/s would experience a peak shock layer temperature of 7,800 K." Nowhere does it say that any part of the module reaches 7,800 K.

The bow shock.

Now, let's have a closer look at the picture: - - - - - Let's not bother wasting more space - - - - - Do you see the handles?

No, I don't see any handles!  So what? That picture is just an artist's rendition, intended only to give an idea of the attitude of the module during re-entry.

Maybe you should read the whole of the reference you have been getting your shocking information - the bit on Thermal protection systems might be educational.


Look there are far more expert people around in this topic than you (a self proclaimed  "Humble_Scientist" and I, who claim no special expertise in these matters).

I think you can rest assured that if NASA was trying to fool you they would be much more convincing!  You people claim they have so many billions to spend.  If that if really is the case I am sure that they could easily fool you.  You have been so utterly negligent on so many points that it is getting beyond a joke! 
While it's a lot of money the proposed 2016 budget figure for NASA is $US19.3 Billion, which is about 7% of the total science budget.  For comparison that proposed 2016 budget figure for defense is $US585 Billion out of a total budget of around $US3,500 Billion.

A little word of advice: Stop cluttering up your posts with massive images that simply cannot fit on anyone's screen (sorry, my monitor is only 1920x1280 and not 3840×2160 or 7680×4320) - it is just useless and makes your posts so hard to read!

Quote from: Yendor on January 24, 2016, 02:04:50 PM

Quote from: getrealzommb on January 24, 2016, 01:16:09 PM

Quote from: Yendor on January 24, 2016, 01:09:33 PM

Go to this website to see a picture of Apollo 9 capsule being lifted out of the water onto a ship. The picture has a small green box you can move around to see a magnified view of the capsule. It clearly shows the handles attached.
http://fineartamerica.com/featured/the-apollo-9-command-module-is-hoisted-stocktrek-images.html 

I see no handles on the scorched side of the craft. only on the un-scorched side, I wonder why that might be??

Okay, here is apollo 13, is this look scorched enough to you?

That is a miniature. The original version of the pic is here
http://universalentertainment.tumblr.com/post/25170935865/apollo-13-1995-miniature-command-module-this

you can easily find pages where images can be found if you are using Chrome.  Just right click on the image and select "Search Google for image".  I assume you were unaware it was a miniature when you posted it but I could be wrong.

I apologize, In my haste I didn't read it, I just saw the pic and posted it. However, This is a pic of Apollo 7 for real. You have to admit that this capsule does not look like it just entered the earth's atmosphere. They must have painted it before this picture was taken . It doesn't even have the rubber raft around it to keep it from sinking.

Quote from: frenat on January 24, 2016, 02:18:36 PM

Quote from: Yendor on January 24, 2016, 02:04:50 PM

Quote from: getrealzommb on January 24, 2016, 01:16:09 PM

Quote from: Yendor on January 24, 2016, 01:09:33 PM

Go to this website to see a picture of Apollo 9 capsule being lifted out of the water onto a ship. The picture has a small green box you can move around to see a magnified view of the capsule. It clearly shows the handles attached.
http://fineartamerica.com/featured/the-apollo-9-command-module-is-hoisted-stocktrek-images.html 

I see no handles on the scorched side of the craft. only on the un-scorched side, I wonder why that might be??

Okay, here is apollo 13, is this look scorched enough to you?

That is a miniature. The original version of the pic is here
http://universalentertainment.tumblr.com/post/25170935865/apollo-13-1995-miniature-command-module-this

you can easily find pages where images can be found if you are using Chrome.  Just right click on the image and select "Search Google for image".  I assume you were unaware it was a miniature when you posted it but I could be wrong.

I apologize, In my haste I didn't read it, I just saw the pic and posted it. However, This is a pic of Apollo 7 for real. You have to admit that this capsule does not look like it just entered the earth's atmosphere. They must have painted it before this picture was taken . It doesn't even have the rubber raft around it to keep it from sinking.

I'm not doing too good tonight. Now I just found out the pic is a training exercise. I give up for tonight, I'm going to go eat dinner. Sorry for my mistakes, you guys win.

Quote from: frenat on January 24, 2016, 02:18:36 PM

Quote from: Yendor on January 24, 2016, 02:04:50 PM

Quote from: getrealzommb on January 24, 2016, 01:16:09 PM

Quote from: Yendor on January 24, 2016, 01:09:33 PM

Go to this website to see a picture of Apollo 9 capsule being lifted out of the water onto a ship. The picture has a small green box you can move around to see a magnified view of the capsule. It clearly shows the handles attached.
http://fineartamerica.com/featured/the-apollo-9-command-module-is-hoisted-stocktrek-images.html 

 http://www.astronautix.com/craft/csmhield.htm
I see no handles on the scorched side of the craft. only on the un-scorched side, I wonder why that might be??

Okay, here is apollo 13, is this look scorched enough to you?

That is a miniature. The original version of the pic is here
http://universalentertainment.tumblr.com/post/25170935865/apollo-13-1995-miniature-command-module-this

you can easily find pages where images can be found if you are using Chrome.  Just right click on the image and select "Search Google for image".  I assume you were unaware it was a miniature when you posted it but I could be wrong.

I apologize, In my haste I didn't read it, I just saw the pic and posted it. However, This is a pic of Apollo 7 for real. You have to admit that this capsule does not look like it just entered the earth's atmosphere. They must have painted it before this picture was taken . It doesn't even have the rubber raft around it to keep it from sinking.

Are you sure it has been to space If it has that is a huge testament to the design of the damn thing.

A little word of advice: Stop cluttering up your posts with massive images that simply cannot fit on anyone's screen (sorry, my monitor is only 1920x1280 and not 3840×2160 or 7680×4320) - it is just useless and makes your posts so hard to read!

Dear rabinoz,

As indicated at the very beginning of this topic, that great picture was kindly provided to me by frenat. Thus, you've just proven that you do not read this thread and/or do not understand its topic.


If my posts are so hard for you to read, just do not read them.

"there are far more expert people around in this topic than you"
What a capital idea.

So, dear experts, what're the temperatures at the locations of those handles during the atmospheric entry?

Is it possible that those shiny stainless steel handles, after atmospheric entry and landing, are still bright, shiny and show no signs of strong heating?

Quote from: rabinoz on January 24, 2016, 02:41:11 PM

A little word of advice: Stop cluttering up your posts with massive images that simply cannot fit on anyone's screen (sorry, my monitor is only 1920x1280 and not 3840×2160 or 7680×4320) - it is just useless and makes your posts so hard to read!

Dear rabinoz,

As indicated at the very beginning of this topic, that great picture was kindly provided to me by frenat. Thus, you've just proven that you do not read this thread and/or do not understand its topic.


If my posts are so hard for you to read, just do not read them.

"there are far more expert people around in this topic than you"
What a capital idea.

So, dear experts, what're the temperatures at the locations of those handles during the atmospheric entry?

Is it possible that those shiny stainless steel handles, after atmospheric entry and landing, are still bright, shiny and show no signs of strong heating?

YOU DONT NEED TO USE MASSIVE TEXTS AND IMAGES, WE ARE NOT BLIND

When you post an image, put .....   width=500 in the code

Example:
 [ img width=500 then the close square bracket ]image address [/img then close square bracket ]