Plastic RF Filters are possible - proof to Rayzor

Rayzor pretty much called me a liar when I mention plastic RF Filters in one of our debates. I think he said something about rolling all over the floor while laughing and he even called me a clown. Well this one article proves him wrong. In fact it is exactly the way I explained it to him.

Web site:
http://www.cybershieldinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/rfmicrowavehousingapplicationnote.pdf


 RF Filter Housing - Plated Plastic
Problem Current RF Filter Housings are manufactured by die casting and/or machining aluminum to the final dimensions, then applying Silver plating. The excessive cost to die cast and machine the aluminum housings has caused RF Filter OEM’s to evaluate lower cost injection molded and plated housings. Cybershield Solution Cybershield has teamed with SABIC Plastics to develop an injection molded plastic and plated RF Filter Housing. SABIC Plastics has developed Ultem 3452, which has outstanding dimensional stability needed to mold to the precise dimensions required for the RF Filter Housing. Other plastic resins may also be
suitable for RF Filter applications, including Polycarbonate, Liquid Crystal Polymer to name a few. Cybershield applies All-Over Copper electroless plating, which is subsequently Silver plated to provide identical electrical properties as machined aluminum. Based on evaluations to date, plated plastic RF Filter Housings offer >20% cost reduction compared to aluminum and are approximately 40% lighter.

Rayzor pretty much called me a liar when I mention plastic RF Filters in one of our debates. I think he said something about rolling all over the floor while laughing and he even called me a clown. Well this one article proves him wrong. In fact it is exactly the way I explained it to him.

Web site:
http://www.cybershieldinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/rfmicrowavehousingapplicationnote.pdf


 RF Filter Housing - Plated Plastic
Problem Current RF Filter Housings are manufactured by die casting and/or machining aluminum to the final dimensions, then applying Silver plating. The excessive cost to die cast and machine the aluminum housings has caused RF Filter OEM’s to evaluate lower cost injection molded and plated housings. Cybershield Solution Cybershield has teamed with SABIC Plastics to develop an injection molded plastic and plated RF Filter Housing. SABIC Plastics has developed Ultem 3452, which has outstanding dimensional stability needed to mold to the precise dimensions required for the RF Filter Housing. Other plastic resins may also be
suitable for RF Filter applications, including Polycarbonate, Liquid Crystal Polymer to name a few. Cybershield applies All-Over Copper electroless plating, which is subsequently Silver plated to provide identical electrical properties as machined aluminum. Based on evaluations to date, plated plastic RF Filter Housings offer >20% cost reduction compared to aluminum and are approximately 40% lighter.

These RF filters are not solely plastic.  They are plated with copper and silver. Pertinent information bolded in your own quote.  Learn to comprehend what you are reading before trying to call someone out.

Quote from: Yendor on August 11, 2015, 12:25:33 PM

Rayzor pretty much called me a liar when I mention plastic RF Filters in one of our debates. I think he said something about rolling all over the floor while laughing and he even called me a clown. Well this one article proves him wrong. In fact it is exactly the way I explained it to him.

Web site:
http://www.cybershieldinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/rfmicrowavehousingapplicationnote.pdf


 RF Filter Housing - Plated Plastic
Problem Current RF Filter Housings are manufactured by die casting and/or machining aluminum to the final dimensions, then applying Silver plating. The excessive cost to die cast and machine the aluminum housings has caused RF Filter OEM’s to evaluate lower cost injection molded and plated housings. Cybershield Solution Cybershield has teamed with SABIC Plastics to develop an injection molded plastic and plated RF Filter Housing. SABIC Plastics has developed Ultem 3452, which has outstanding dimensional stability needed to mold to the precise dimensions required for the RF Filter Housing. Other plastic resins may also be
suitable for RF Filter applications, including Polycarbonate, Liquid Crystal Polymer to name a few. Cybershield applies All-Over Copper electroless plating, which is subsequently Silver plated to provide identical electrical properties as machined aluminum. Based on evaluations to date, plated plastic RF Filter Housings offer >20% cost reduction compared to aluminum and are approximately 40% lighter.

These RF filters are not solely plastic.  They are plated with copper and silver. Pertinent information bolded in your own quote.  Learn to comprehend what you are reading before trying to call someone out.

That is where you are wrong. You should get the whole picture before you open your mouth. Like I said above, "In fact it is exactly the way I explained it to him." I told him they were plated, I even told him wave guides can be made the same way. I also asked him if he had ever heard of skin effect before. I couldn't have explained it any better. He simply thinks RF filters have to be made of a metallic material to work. It seems to me you may think the same thing.

BJ1234, Just so you don't think I'm lying, here is the exchange from him and me. I'll underline my statements to him so you can see with your own eyes.

Quote from: Rayzor on August 09, 2015, 04:41:47 PM

Quote from: Yendor on August 09, 2015, 01:07:19 PM

If I said an  antenna can pick up sounds like a microphone, I was wrong for saying that. I don't remember saying it, but that's beside the point. Antennas do NOT pick up sound like a microphone, period. Microphones produce vibrations the same as a speaker, they work the same. The mechanics or how they are made may be different, but the end result is the same. An antenna picks up frequency waves. All antennas are made to receive or transmit waves of certain frequencies.

Anytime something vibrates friction is produced and when friction is produced a sound is made. If the sound is in the audible frequency range then a person can hear it. Any frequency can move things if they are connected to something that can vibrate, like a speaker for example. The speaker moves the molecules in the atmosphere, thus causing other things to move also.
audible frequencies are no more pressure waves then light is. They are both vibrations at just different frequencies. Why can't you see that?

I'm not blindly following someone anymore then you following the bow tie wearing professors in the college you went to.

The audible frequency can be transmitted just like so called radio waves.

You crack me up.   You seriously think you could hear  10 Khz radio waves?    what about  60 Hz radio waves.    Can you make an LC oscillator for audio for me?     ROTFLMAO!!!   

Plastic non conductive antennas and rf filters were your design speciality were they.    You are a real clown.

Any just in case you are going to deny saying it.  Here is your quote

Quote

from: Yendor on August 08, 2015, 11:54:54 PM
Rayzor,
You accused me of being a troll a while back and I admitted I was trolling you just for fun. But now I have to accuse you of being a troll so why don't you just come out and admit it?

When you say, "Sound travels at the speed of sound,   light travels at the speed of light,   neither depends on frequency" you have to know that is just wrong. Have you never heard of cycles per second? Do you not realize everything vibrates a certain frequency and yes audio and light have a much different frequency. It just so happens we can hear the frequency of sound only because the power that generated it is high enough for us to hear it. Light is the same way.

Also you stated, "Radio waves can induce electric currents in antennas,   sound waves cannot"
You know that is not true. The frequency of the oscillator and the power in the final stage of the Tx connects to the antenna. Then current travels through the antenna and radiates out of the antenna. If the Tx is designed for audio frequencies everything works the same. Theoretically any frequency can be transmitted out of an antenna. But, it has to be a frequency of some sort. You can't transmit anything unless it oscillates at a frequency.

Rayzor, I'm not going to resort to calling names to you, that is simply below me. People who call other people names only do it when they know they can't win a debate or argument.

Your question - You seriously think you could hear  10 Khz radio waves?    what about  60 Hz radio waves.

My answer - Yes you can. Have you never heard of the U.S. Navy's ELF communication program? They communicate with subs. The frequencies are from 40 - 80 Hz.

Your question - Can you make an LC oscillator for audio for me?
My answer - Of course I can if the coils and caps that size were commercially available? What is so hard about that.

Your question - Plastic non conductive antennas and rf filters were your design speciality were they
My answer - I never mentioned antennas. Have you never heard of electroplating? Many filters are made of plastic then electroplated to form a metallic surface inside the filter. That same process can be used for wave guides also. You have heard of skin effect haven't you.[/u] 

You should think a little deeper before you start calling someone a clown. Although I'm not offended, I just thought you were above name calling after I admitted I was trolling you at first.

Do you have anymore questions about any statement I mentioned?

Once again, you are not understanding what was written. Your reading comprehension lacks severely.
Rayzor was asking you about non-conductive antenna and RF filters.  You then went on and gave an example of a plastic RF filter that is electroplated with copper and silver.  Which, to me, supports his claim that non-conductive antenna and RF filters are not available.  Unless you are claiming that copper and silver are non-conductive.

Sorry Rodney,  when you are in a hole you need to stop digging it deeper.   

Here is the follow up post, 

Your question - Plastic non conductive antennas and rf filters were your design speciality were they
 
My answer - I never mentioned antennas. Have you never heard of electroplating? Many filters are made of plastic then electroplated to form a metallic surface inside the filter. That same process can be used for wave guides also. You have heard of skin effect haven't you.

What do you understand by the words NON CONDUCTIVE.      Show me a working,  plastic, non-conductive rf filter or antenna.

EM fields can't induce currents in non-conductive materials,  so a large flat nylon sheet is not going to work as a radio antenna but it will vibrate just fine when it receives sound waves.   Sound and Light are not the same.

I know you understand,  so stop pretending you don't.   

Can't admit when you are wrong can you?

Your quote:
What do you understand by the words NON CONDUCTIVE.      Show me a working,  plastic, non-conductive rf filter or antenna.
 
I answered by mentioning TVI filters and they could be made on fiberglass G10 material or phenolic material.

Well Rayzor, here is proof that what I said is true. You don't need a metallic enclosure for some RF filters to work. This filter looks like it is made on copper clad G10 fiberglass board. Incidentally, the copper is only there to solder the components to. In fact these types of RF filters can be made without any substrate or enclosure at all. I believe you can say this would be a non conductive working RF filter. Do you need me to show you more or is one enough? I'm surprised you didn't know some RF filters can be made like this. Go figure.



This should be a lesson to you, Do a little research before you start calling people clowns. No one likes being called something they are not. I've never done that to you, why do it to me?

Can't admit when you are wrong can you?

Your quote:
What do you understand by the words NON CONDUCTIVE.      Show me a working,  plastic, non-conductive rf filter or antenna.
 
I answered by mentioning TVI filters and they could be made on fiberglass G10 material or phenolic material.

Well Rayzor, here is proof that what I said is true. You don't need a metallic enclosure for some RF filters to work. This filter looks like it is made on copper clad G10 fiberglass board. Incidentally, the copper is only there to solder the components to. In fact these types of RF filters can be made without any substrate or enclosure at all. I believe you can say this would be a non conductive working RF filter. Do you need me to show you more or is one enough? I'm surprised you didn't know some RF filters can be made like this. Go figure.



This should be a lesson to you, Do a little research before you start calling people clowns. No one likes being called something they are not. I've never done that to you, why do it to me?

I think copper conducts and is a metal. I may be wrong but if you want to act like septic you can have some of the scorn he so justly draws on himself.

Incidentally, the copper is only there to solder the components to.

Which explains the scratched paths through the copper plating, oh wait.
If this is what "going basic" does to people we're going to need a lot more caretaker facilities before it is adopted by the general public.
Since it is just like going commando I suggest you put that pair of undies back on your head before the rest leaks out.

Quote from: Yendor on August 12, 2015, 07:24:33 AM

Incidentally, the copper is only there to solder the components to.

Which explains the scratched paths through the copper plating, oh wait.
If this is what "going basic" does to people we're going to need a lot more caretaker facilities before it is adopted by the general public.
Since it is just like going commando I suggest you put that pair of undies back on your head before the rest leaks out.

Saying what you said just displays you ignorance about RF filters or any other electronic device. As I said, "the copper is there to allow the components to be soldered to." Do you know what components are? Surely, even with your glazed over eyes, you can see if the copper is not scored, (removed down to the actual fiberglass), the  the components would short out. The coil would no longer be a coil and the resistor would no longer be a resistor. The components would all be shorted out. Even the coaxial cable would be shorted out. Please, someone with a little electronic knowledge help this poor guy out.

Can't admit when you are wrong can you?

Your quote:
What do you understand by the words NON CONDUCTIVE.      Show me a working,  plastic, non-conductive rf filter or antenna.
 
I answered by mentioning TVI filters and they could be made on fiberglass G10 material or phenolic material.

Well Rayzor, here is proof that what I said is true. You don't need a metallic enclosure for some RF filters to work. This filter looks like it is made on copper clad G10 fiberglass board. Incidentally, the copper is only there to solder the components to.

Oh. Dear. God!

Here's your original picture:



Are you saying that if you also scored the copper where the two added lines are in the picture below, that it would work exactly the same?



Better yet, if you removed all the copper except where the solder is, would it work exactly the same? 

How about if you removed all the copper and just glued the components to the fiberglass board, using non-conductive glue, keeping the same arrangement (i.e. none of the components touch each other or the cables)? Would it still work?

In fact these types of RF filters can be made without any substrate or enclosure at all. I believe you can say this would be a non conductive working RF filter.

I don't believe you can say that at all (well, you can say it, but you'd be wrong). Why do you believe that's a non-conductive RF filter? I see lots of conductive material there.

Do you need me to show you more or is one enough?

We haven't seen one yet. Can you show an actual example of a working RF filter made entirely of non-conductive materials?

I'm surprised you didn't know some RF filters can be made like this. Go figure.

This should be a lesson to you, Do a little research before you start calling people clowns. No one likes being called something they are not. I've never done that to you, why do it to me?

The reason why you get called a clown is because you're acting like one, either intentionally or inadvertently.  You claim to have worked professionally in electronics, then make statements like "the copper is only there to solder the components to". You're either clowning around intentionally, playing dumb, or know so little about what you claim to have made a career of that you're making a fool of yourself pretending to know something.

Mik

Quote from: Yendor on August 12, 2015, 07:24:33 AM

Can't admit when you are wrong can you?

Your quote:
What do you understand by the words NON CONDUCTIVE.      Show me a working,  plastic, non-conductive rf filter or antenna.
 
I answered by mentioning TVI filters and they could be made on fiberglass G10 material or phenolic material.

Well Rayzor, here is proof that what I said is true. You don't need a metallic enclosure for some RF filters to work. This filter looks like it is made on copper clad G10 fiberglass board. Incidentally, the copper is only there to solder the components to.

Oh. Dear. God!

Here's your original picture:



Are you saying that if you also scored the copper where the two added lines are in the picture below, that it would work exactly the same?



Better yet, if you removed all the copper except where the solder is, would it work exactly the same? 

How about if you removed all the copper and just glued the components to the fiberglass board, using non-conductive glue, keeping the same arrangement (i.e. none of the components touch each other or the cables)? Would it still work?

Quote

In fact these types of RF filters can be made without any substrate or enclosure at all. I believe you can say this would be a non conductive working RF filter.

I don't believe you can say that at all (well, you can say it, but you'd be wrong). Why do you believe that's a non-conductive RF filter? I see lots of conductive material there.

Quote

Do you need me to show you more or is one enough?

We haven't seen one yet. Can you show an actual example of a working RF filter made entirely of non-conductive materials?

Quote

I'm surprised you didn't know some RF filters can be made like this. Go figure.

This should be a lesson to you, Do a little research before you start calling people clowns. No one likes being called something they are not. I've never done that to you, why do it to me?

The reason why you get called a clown is because you're acting like one, either intentionally or inadvertently.  You claim to have worked professionally in electronics, then make statements like "the copper is only there to solder the components to". You're either clowning around intentionally, playing dumb, or know so little about what you claim to have made a career of that you're making a fool of yourself pretending to know something.

Mikey T. PLease help me. I know you something about electronics. I'm totally shocked By the ignorance of Alpha20mega. I thought he knew more than this.

Of course it won't work if you cut the board like you've shown. You have literally removed the input  and output cables from the circuit. How dumb can you get. Unless...you are trolling me.
So, what is it are you trolling me or are you really that dumb?

And yes, you can remove all the copper except where you need the components connecting to the rest of the circuit. Have you never built a pc board using copper clad G10 fiberglass or phenolic? I thought you knew everything.

Here is a pic of a TVI filter with the components soldered just to the coaxial cable

Here is a pic of a TVI filter with the components soldered just to the coaxial cable

the copper is only there to solder the components to. In fact these types of RF filters can be made without any substrate or enclosure at all. I believe you can say this would be a non conductive working RF filter.

Show an example of a non-conductive RF filter.

Of course it won't work if you cut the board like you've shown. You have literally removed the input  and output cables from the circuit. How dumb can you get. Unless...you are trolling me.
So, what is it are you trolling me or are you really that dumb?

I'm trying to understand what you meant by "Incidentally, the copper is only there to solder the components to."

If its only purpose is to give you a place to solder, then the extra cuts wouldn't matter, since there's still plenty of copper to solder to.

But apparently, that's not the only reason for the copper, since now you say "Of course it won't work if you cut the board like you've shown. You have literally removed the input  and output cables from the circuit." Meaning that the copper is also providing a conductive path between the cables and the components.

So which is it?

And yes, you can remove all the copper except where you need the components connecting to the rest of the circuit.

That's not what I asked. I asked about removing all the copper except where the solder is. Obviously, that's going to be the same as the previous answer: if the parts aren't connected by a conductive path, it won't work. So, again, the copper must not be providing only a place to solder; it's also providing part of the circuit.

Have you never built a pc board using copper clad G10 fiberglass or phenolic?

Yes, I have, but, out of curiosity, why do you keep mentioning the nonconductive board material? Are you trying to look like you know something?

I thought you knew everything.

Nope. Never claimed to, either. Sorry to disappoint.

Here is a pic of a TVI filter with the components soldered just to the coaxial cable

OK. That looks like a filter of some kind made from copper wire inductors and variable caps, all connected together and to coaxial cables by soldering to copper wire, metal terminal strips, and solder lugs (these last two are probably tinned steel).

Is the material the whole thing is attached to aluminum? It's kind of hard to tell, but the coax shields being connected to it, and nothing else, suggests that it's a conductive material of some sort. The barrier between the two sides also suggests that it's a conductor, too, since it is apparently designed to shield one side of the circuit from the other; there would be no point in having it at all, with the need to drill a hole in it to pass the copper conductor from one side to the other, unless the barrier material was conductive.

When are you going to show a picture of a non conductive working RF filter? Was this supposed to be an example? You do know that copper wire and tinned steel are conductors, don't you? So is aluminum.

Seriously, do you have any idea what you're talking about? If you're just pulling our leg, don't get so offended by being called a clown.

Can't admit when you are wrong can you?

Your quote:
What do you understand by the words NON CONDUCTIVE.      Show me a working,  plastic, non-conductive rf filter or antenna.
 
I answered by mentioning TVI filters and they could be made on fiberglass G10 material or phenolic material.

Well Rayzor, here is proof that what I said is true. You don't need a metallic enclosure for some RF filters to work. This filter looks like it is made on copper clad G10 fiberglass board. Incidentally, the copper is only there to solder the components to. In fact these types of RF filters can be made without any substrate or enclosure at all. I believe you can say this would be a non conductive working RF filter. Do you need me to show you more or is one enough? I'm surprised you didn't know some RF filters can be made like this. Go figure.



This should be a lesson to you, Do a little research before you start calling people clowns. No one likes being called something they are not. I've never done that to you, why do it to me?

See the four quadrants on the copper board there.  It is not just for soldering.  They are in fact nodes.  Connections.  The reason it is scored is so you do have a break so your signal, aka current, flows thee way you want it to.  What you have here is a low pass filter for both directions.  Here I tried to do a quick circuit schematic using a terrible online tool, but it sorta worked.  The inductors are air inductors that have been hand made, so I do not have the technical specs for them.  But from the look of the resistor is looks like a 41 ohm.


There is most definitely a conductive path for the current.  Sorry there Yendor, wrong again. 
What a low pass filter does for any of those interested, is that it will dump the unwanted higher frequency signals in the form of DC to ground (its being attenuated).  In this case, the shielding of the coaxial cable.  Basically it cuts off anything higher than you want and lets everything below that pass through.  Hence the RL style circuit here.  If you flip the inputs to where the signal and the ground are flipped on both sides you have a high pass filter without changing the circuit any further, just a fun little tidbit there.  Alpha's change to the circuit would basically be like cutting the cables in half, no pathway means no current flow.

If I knew what the specs were on the inductors there I could  tell you what frequency would be the cutoff for attenuation. 
F_c = R/(2*pi*L)
F_c is the cutoff frequency
R is the resistance
L is the inductance

Quick look at it I would guess it was 4 turns, 1/4 inch diameter with a length of 1/2 inch.  That would give it.
L= (d^2 * n^2)/(18d+40l)
L is the inductance
d is the coil diameter
n is the number of turns
l is the length of the coil

L = 0.04082 uH

So using that this low pass filter would cut off anything above 159,856,753.22 Hz  so roughly a 160 MHz low pass filter.

Hi Mikey,    I agree with you that it's a high pass filter,  but the circuit as shown doesn't make sense,  There is no signal path?   maybe it's partially assembled,  or perhaps bits on the other side of the board we can't see. 
Those large copper areas might even be capacitive coupling to the bottom of the board?   Or maybe it's just a high pass LC pi filter, and they haven't soldered the Cap as yet.

I admit to being lazy these days,  something like that,  I would sweep it,  and look at the output with the spectrum analyser,  that way you pick up all the little resonances and unwanted stray capacitances. 

Back to Sound versus Light.   I'm close to giving up on Yendor,   but I'm a sucker for punishment.   So let's try again.

Yendor says  Sound and Light are the same just different frequencies.   Since we agreed that light and radio are both EM waves,  and we also agree that radio waves can induce currents in a conductor.

My argument is simple.   Sound waves cannot induce currents in a conductor like EM waves can.   You cannot make an antenna or filter out of non conductive plastics.   It will vibrate quite nicely with sound,  like a bit nylon sheet would vibrate with sound,  but radio waves won't affect it at all. 

Secondly,  Yendor says the speed of sound varies with frequency,  presumably this is to explain the difference between the speed of sound and speed of light.   Again this is just complete rubbish,  a 1 Khz audio tone has exactly the same speed as a 10 Khz audio tone.   You can hear both of these sounds.    A 1Khz radio signal or a 10Khz radio signal cannot be heard by normal humans.

So Yendor,  continue to be a clown?  or not,   you choose.

PS..   Mystery solved.  This makes sense now.   This is the bottom of the board,  those copper areas are capacitors.   So contrary to Yendor's statement,  they can't be removed.



And the circuit.

Hi Mikey,    I agree with you that it's a high pass filter,  but the circuit as shown doesn't make sense,  There is no signal path?   maybe it's partially assembled,  or perhaps bits on the other side of the board we can't see. 
Those large copper areas might even be capacitive coupling to the bottom of the board?   Or maybe it's just a high pass LC pi filter, and they haven't soldered the Cap as yet.

I admit to being lazy these days,  something like that,  I would sweep it,  and look at the output with the spectrum analyser,  that way you pick up all the little resonances and unwanted stray capacitances. 

Back to Sound versus Light.   I'm close to giving up on Yendor,   but I'm a sucker for punishment.   So let's try again.

Yendor says  Sound and Light are the same just different frequencies.   Since we agreed that light and radio are both EM waves,  and we also agree that radio waves can induce currents in a conductor.

My argument is simple.   Sound waves cannot induce currents in a conductor like EM waves can.   You cannot make an antenna or filter out of non conductive plastics.   It will vibrate quite nicely with sound,  like a bit nylon sheet would vibrate with sound,  but radio waves won't affect it at all. 

Secondly,  Yendor says the speed of sound varies with frequency,  presumably this is to explain the difference between the speed of sound and speed of light.   Again this is just complete rubbish,  a 1 Khz audio tone has exactly the same speed as a 10 Khz audio tone.   You can hear both of these sounds.    A 1Khz radio signal or a 10Khz radio signal cannot be heard by normal humans.

So Yendor,  continue to be a clown?  or not,   you choose.

PS..   Mystery solved.  This makes sense now.   This is the bottom of the board,  those copper areas are capacitors.   So contrary to Yendor's statement,  they can't be removed.



And the circuit.

High pass filter, can I see sound now.

Well that is an interesting method of using a double sided copper blank circuit board as a capacitor.  Works in theory, gets around needing more capacitors too.  The air inductors alone were impressive to me in the DIY notion of circuits.  I like thinking out of the box for solutions and this example is one of those outside the box designs.  Yep with the board/capacitor on the back side you make a RLC high pass filter instead of what I thought was a RL low pass filter.  Also after searching for the image since Rayzor found the underside of the board, I realize that the resistor wasn't yellow brown black (curse my work monitor, it sucks), but yellow violet green.  So a 4.7 M ohm resistor.

Here is the project site for anyone interested.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rg4wpw/filters.html

BTW I hope you were not pawning that off as one of your projects there Yendor.  I do not think you were.

From the thread about sight 'n' sound in the discussion forum:

I know what you guys mean. I'm going at it with a bunch on the general forum  right now. For a bunch of people who claim they know everything about everything, i'm discovering they know nothing about electronics.

Oh, the irony.

Well Rayzor, here is proof that what I said is true. You don't need a metallic enclosure for some RF filters to work. This filter looks like it is made on copper clad G10 fiberglass board. Incidentally, the copper is only there to solder the components to. In fact these types of RF filters can be made without any substrate or enclosure at all. I believe you can say this would be a non conductive working RF filter. Do you need me to show you more or is one enough? I'm surprised you didn't know some RF filters can be made like this. Go figure.

Quote from: Alpha2Omega on August 12, 2015, 01:30:32 PM

Are you saying that if you also scored the copper where the two added lines are in the picture below, that it would work exactly the same?

Of course it won't work if you cut the board like you've shown. You have literally removed the input  and output cables from the circuit.

So the copper is not only there to solder the components to. It also provides the conductive path to connect the components to the cables. Oops...

Quote

Better yet, if you removed all the copper except where the solder is, would it work exactly the same? 

And yes, you can remove all the copper except where you need the components connecting to the rest of the circuit.

PS..   Mystery solved.  This makes sense now.   This is the bottom of the board,  those copper areas are capacitors.   So contrary to Yendor's statement,  they can't be removed.

So, not only is the copper needed to conduct electricity, it's also the plates of some capacitors that are part of the circuit. Double oops...

I show them proof with pictures and the still they don't grasp it. They all try to gang up and come up with dumb reasons why I'm wrong.

Where is this proof you keep harping about? You keep saying that RF filters don't need conductive parts, then try to prove it by showing pictures of RF filters made with mostly copper conductors. Hello, Yendor? Do you know what conductive means? You've only shown evidence that you don't know what it means.

They like calling names and trying to humiliate people, but that to me is just a sign of weakness.

You mean like this:

Now I believe the REers are not so smart after all. They seem not to use their brain much and they only know what we were all taught in school.
...
God help us if all the physicists are dumb as these guys.

How dumb can you get. Unless...you are trolling me.
So, what is it are you trolling me or are you really that dumb?
...
I thought you knew everything.

Weak.

Quote from: Alpha2Omega on August 12, 2015, 01:30:32 PM

Are you saying that if you also scored the copper where the two added lines are in the picture below, that it would work exactly the same?

Of course it won't work if you cut the board like you've shown. You have literally removed the input  and output cables from the circuit.

Um...   Yendor fails again,   All that Alpha2Omega has done is to insert series capacitance to both signal and ground paths.   

For someone who pretends to understand RF,  Yendor sure is a dumbass clown.    Then he complains that no-one understands his version of electronics,  I wonder why that is?

Miley T., I believe that is a high pass filter, not a low pass.  Also, while the copper will act as capacitors, I believe the effects in this circuit would be negligible.  I believe the primary purpose for the copper is purely mechanical, and and that the filter would work about the same with or without the capacitance.

Miley T., I believe that is a high pass filter, not a low pass.  Also, while the copper will act as capacitors, I believe the effects in this circuit would be negligible.  I believe the primary purpose for the copper is purely mechanical, and and that the filter would work about the same with or without the capacitance.

Good shit jora, can't be stuffed doing the sums but you are about right. Now do I get a flat cookie with acid in it so I can see sound one more time pretty please.

Okay, I admit you need the copper clad to form capacitors on this particular filter. I truthfully did not see the copper on the other side. And jroa is mostly correct, the copper provides an easy way to attach the components together. I've done it a lot of times. However, This whole argument started when I said you cam make RF filters out of plastic and then electroplate them to provide the shielding and grounding you need for most RF filters. That seemed to really tickle Alpha because he called me a clown and started rolling in the floor. I also told him some filter do not even require an enclosure to work and I mentioned TVI filters can be made on copper clad fiberglass or phenolic boards. Again he began to insult me. I know TVI filters can work the way i described because I personally have built them. In this post I showed him a company making RF filters out of plastic and then electroplating them just the way I told alpha you could do. I also showed him a TVI filter that was made on copper clad fiberglass material. I also showed him a TVI filter made with the components soldered together hanging in mid air. So I stick to my claims because I provided proof to what I said. I rest my case.

Okay, I admit you need the copper clad to form capacitors on this particular filter. I truthfully did not see the copper on the other side. And jroa is mostly correct, the copper provides an easy way to attach the components together. I've done it a lot of times. However, This whole argument started when I said you cam make RF filters out of plastic and then electroplate them to provide the shielding and grounding you need for most RF filters. That seemed to really tickle Alpha because he called me a clown and started rolling in the floor. I also told him some filter do not even require an enclosure to work and I mentioned TVI filters can be made on copper clad fiberglass or phenolic boards. Again he began to insult me. I know TVI filters can work the way i described because I personally have built them. In this post I showed him a company making RF filters out of plastic and then electroplating them just the way I told alpha you could do. I also showed him a TVI filter that was made on copper clad fiberglass material. I also showed him a TVI filter made with the components soldered together hanging in mid air. So I stick to my claims because I provided proof to what I said. I rest my case.

It was me that called you a clown.    Let's get back to WHY,  I raised the issue of non-conductive plastic antennas and filters  in the first place.   

You said that Sound and Light are the same just different frequencies.   

When pressed on the matter you agreed that light and radio are both EM waves,  and, when pressed further you also agreed that radio waves can induce currents in a conductor. 

However,  Sound waves cannot induce currents in a conductor like EM waves can.   You cannot make an antenna or filter out of non conductive plastics.   It will vibrate quite nicely with sound,  like a bit nylon sheet would vibrate with sound,  but radio waves won't affect it at all.    That's when you went off track with electroplated plastics,  missing the point all together.  Probably deliberate trolling?

Secondly,  You say the speed of sound varies with frequency,  presumably this is to explain the difference between the speed of sound and speed of light.   Again this is just complete rubbish,  a 1 Khz audio tone has exactly the same speed as a 10 Khz audio tone.    A 1Khz radio signal or a 10Khz radio signal cannot be heard by normal humans,   You claimed that can hear both of these sounds. 

So Yendor,  continue to be a clown?  or not,   you choose.

Okay, I admit you need the copper clad to form capacitors on this particular filter. I truthfully did not see the copper on the other side. And jroa is mostly correct, the copper provides an easy way to attach the components together. I've done it a lot of times. However, This whole argument started when I said you cam make RF filters out of plastic and then electroplate them to provide the shielding and grounding you need for most RF filters. That seemed to really tickle Alpha because he called me a clown and started rolling in the floor. I also told him some filter do not even require an enclosure to work and I mentioned TVI filters can be made on copper clad fiberglass or phenolic boards. Again he began to insult me. I know TVI filters can work the way i described because I personally have built them. In this post I showed him a company making RF filters out of plastic and then electroplating them just the way I told alpha you could do. I also showed him a TVI filter that was made on copper clad fiberglass material. I also showed him a TVI filter made with the components soldered together hanging in mid air. So I stick to my claims because I provided proof to what I said. I rest my case.

Listen to the screen.

Quote from: Yendor on August 13, 2015, 06:30:16 AM

Okay, I admit you need the copper clad to form capacitors on this particular filter. I truthfully did not see the copper on the other side. And jroa is mostly correct, the copper provides an easy way to attach the components together. I've done it a lot of times. However, This whole argument started when I said you cam make RF filters out of plastic and then electroplate them to provide the shielding and grounding you need for most RF filters. That seemed to really tickle Alpha because he called me a clown and started rolling in the floor. I also told him some filter do not even require an enclosure to work and I mentioned TVI filters can be made on copper clad fiberglass or phenolic boards. Again he began to insult me. I know TVI filters can work the way i described because I personally have built them. In this post I showed him a company making RF filters out of plastic and then electroplating them just the way I told alpha you could do. I also showed him a TVI filter that was made on copper clad fiberglass material. I also showed him a TVI filter made with the components soldered together hanging in mid air. So I stick to my claims because I provided proof to what I said. I rest my case.

It was me that called you a clown.    Let's get back to WHY,  I raised the issue of non-conductive plastic antennas and filters  in the first place.   

You said that Sound and Light are the same just different frequencies.   

When pressed on the matter you agreed that light and radio are both EM waves,  and, when pressed further you also agreed that radio waves can induce currents in a conductor. 

However,  Sound waves cannot induce currents in a conductor like EM waves can.   You cannot make an antenna or filter out of non conductive plastics.   It will vibrate quite nicely with sound,  like a bit nylon sheet would vibrate with sound,  but radio waves won't affect it at all.    That's when you went off track with electroplated plastics,  missing the point all together.  Probably deliberate trolling?

Secondly,  You say the speed of sound varies with frequency,  presumably this is to explain the difference between the speed of sound and speed of light.   Again this is just complete rubbish,  a 1 Khz audio tone has exactly the same speed as a 10 Khz audio tone.    A 1Khz radio signal or a 10Khz radio signal cannot be heard by normal humans,   You claimed that can hear both of these sounds. 

So Yendor,  continue to be a clown?  or not,   you choose.

Rayzor,
Okay, you are the culprit who started calling me a clown. Does that make you feel good about yourself? I don't know where you are getting all this stuff that i'm supposed to have said, but I don't remember saying a lot of it. Maybe I did, I'm not going to take the time to go back and see. Let's just say for now I must have had a senior moment when I said it. You know I'm not a young man any longer, It's like my son's girl friend says, you are an old man.

Let's get down to it and let's try and straighten this mess out.

Quote from you:
 You said that Sound and Light are the same just different frequencies.

My answer:
 I swear I don't remember saying this. No, sound waves and light waves are not the same. I believe audible  frequency waves, (20Hz to 20KHz) can be EM waves the same as light waves and or radio waves. I used the example of the Navy's ELF program, (Extremely Low Frequency, 40Hz to 80Hz). The reason being is because the Navy can transmit EM waves to submarines under water at this frequency, which incidentally falls in the audible frequency range. 

Quote from you:
When pressed on the matter you agreed that light and radio are both EM waves,  and, when pressed further you also agreed that radio waves can induce currents in a conductor.

My answer:
Yes agree. radio waves are EM waves and most definitely can induce current in a conductor.

Quote from you:
However,  Sound waves cannot induce currents in a conductor like EM waves can.   You cannot make an antenna or filter out of non conductive plastics.   It will vibrate quite nicely with sound,  like a bit nylon sheet would vibrate with sound,  but radio waves won't affect it at all.    That's when you went off track with electroplated plastics,  missing the point all together.  Probably deliberate trolling?

My answer:
Sorry you felt that way, I was certainly not trying to be a troll. When it comes to electronics i'm very serious. Very true, sound waves cannot induce currents in a conductor Like EM waves can. However, like I said above, audible frequency waves, (20Hz to 20KHz), can induce currents in a conductor. Yes you can make a RF filter out of non conductive material like plastic. You have to electroplate to to make it conductive. I showed you where they were doing it now. Of course it will vibrate with sound. sound is produced because air molecules vibrate or move and with enough air force most anything will vibrate or move. I don't remember you mentioning antennas. Again, plastic antennas do not work because antennas need to be made of a conductive material. As a side bar, antennas can be made out of non conductive material as long as they are electroplated or have an embedded conductor inside or wrapped with a conductive material, usually copper wire.

Quote from you:
Secondly,  You say the speed of sound varies with frequency,  presumably this is to explain the difference between the speed of sound and speed of light.   Again this is just complete rubbish,  a 1 Khz audio tone has exactly the same speed as a 10 Khz audio tone.    A 1Khz radio signal or a 10Khz radio signal cannot be heard by normal humans,   You claimed that can hear both of these sounds. 

My answer:
I don't ever remember making this statement. As far as I know and I've never heard different, the speed of sound doesn't vary with frequency. Again, I do not remember saying any of this. I agree with you on what you say. I can't hear any sound, outside the human frequency range, (20Hz to 20Kz) and I can only hear that when it is compressed coming from a speaker of some sort and only if enough air force makes it loud enough for me to hear. Certainly not by an antenna. I'm not a radio receiver. I hope my answers clear this matter up. If there is something else you think I'm a clown over, please bring it up.

Miley T., I believe that is a high pass filter, not a low pass.  Also, while the copper will act as capacitors, I believe the effects in this circuit would be negligible.  I believe the primary purpose for the copper is purely mechanical, and and that the filter would work about the same with or without the capacitance.

I have bolded the corection and reasons for my mistake earlier.  I guess you are still only scanning over my posts as they are too much for you to actually read.

Well that is an interesting method of using a double sided copper blank circuit board as a capacitor.  Works in theory, gets around needing more capacitors too.  The air inductors alone were impressive to me in the DIY notion of circuits.  I like thinking out of the box for solutions and this example is one of those outside the box designs.  Yep with the board/capacitor on the back side you make a RLC high pass filter instead of what I thought was a RL low pass filter. Also after searching for the image since Rayzor found the underside of the board, I realize that the resistor wasn't yellow brown black (curse my work monitor, it sucks), but yellow violet green.  So a 4.7 M ohm resistor.

Here is the project site for anyone interested.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rg4wpw/filters.html

The two plates of copper separated by a non conductive material will act as a capacitor.  In fact that is how many are made.  One charge can build up on one plate which will cause a basically equal and opposite charge to build up on the other.

Quote from you:
 You said that Sound and Light are the same just different frequencies.

My answer:
 I swear I don't remember saying this. No, sound waves and light waves are not the same. I believe audible  frequency waves, (20Hz to 20KHz) can be EM waves the same as light waves and or radio waves. .....

Let me stop you right there.  You are again misunderstanding the terminology.  An audible wave is the range of the vibration frequency spectrum that can be heard.  It is NOT EM radiation.  Honestly, I was beginning to question my original assessment of your claimed qualifications to talk about electronics and engineering, yet almost every few posts you remind me of why I got upset before.