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God does not exist

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BOGWarrior89

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God does not exist
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2006, 06:27:59 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
thanks for your rather infurating presumption of my ignorance.


You are assuming that that was my presumption; it is wrong.  I merely want you to re-examine them, perhaps in a different light/from a different viewpoint.

Quote from: "Erasmus"
My understanding of those theorems is that they put limits on what can be proved.


Ok, you've got it, but I'd like to change one thing: the limits that the place are based on the introduction of new laws; good ol' Godel said that one branch of Mathematics, all by itself, cannot prove all the theorems in it; one must incorporate another branch if that is to be done, but that branch cannot prove all of it's theorems, and another branch must be brought in/made up to cover for the new uncertainty.

Quote from: "Erasmus"
You brought up Godel seemingly, to me, to imply that mathematical proofs are not really proofs, but merely reflect the consensus of mathematicians.  It's quite clear that that's not what Godel's theorems are about.


I brought up Godel because the basic, lay-man's definition for his theorems is that you cannot prove all the theorems in a branch of mathematics, no matter how hard you tried.

Quote from: "Erasmus"
What is your interpretation of the theorems?


My presumption about this statement is that you are angrily awaiting my response.  I feel uneasy.
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Kryptid

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God does not exist
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2006, 06:31:57 PM »
Quote
But God can't be contradictory to any conceivable scientific evidence. Does that make it rational to believe in?

I wasn't referencing the belief in some god. I was referencing the simple existence of a god; known to us or otherwise. My point was that a "scientific perspective" doesn't really say anything about the existence/nonexistence of a god.
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 want a Flat-Earther to PM me, and tell me why they believe Samuel Rowbotham in the first place. If a Flat-Earther requires proof in order to believe something, then why do they believe this man, even though he provided no proof himself?
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Erasmus

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God does not exist
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2006, 06:49:41 PM »
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
I brought up Godel because the basic, lay-man's definition for his theorems is that you cannot prove all the theorems in a branch of mathematics, no matter how hard you tried.


If you stay within that system, sure, but nothing requires you to stay within that system.  Furthermore, this in no way denigrates the usefulness or truth of any existing theorems that have been proved.

At no point do mathematicians need to rely on anybody's opinion of the truth of any theorems.
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BOGWarrior89

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God does not exist
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2006, 06:53:10 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
I brought up Godel because the basic, lay-man's definition for his theorems is that you cannot prove all the theorems in a branch of mathematics, no matter how hard you tried.


If you stay within that system, sure, but nothing requires you to stay within that system.  Furthermore, this in no way denigrates the usefulness or truth of any existing theorems that have been proved.

At no point do mathematicians need to rely on anybody's opinion of the truth of any theorems.


You need to understand that, at one time, the "truth" of today was the opinion of one person.
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Erasmus

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God does not exist
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2006, 07:45:02 PM »
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
You need to understand that, at one time, the "truth" of today was the opinion of one person.


Including mathematical truth?  I believe that the beginning of this tangent was somebody (possibly you) claiming something along those lines and somebody else (possibly me) pointing out that mathematical truths are an exception.  We have thus run one full lap in this discussion.

Anyway I'm not really ready to accept the suggestion that at some point in history the number 2 did not satisfy the definition of an even number, or that any other nowadays-accepted mathematical truths were at some point a matter of opinion.

Can you give an example of a mathematical truth that at some point was merely opinion, and not actually true?

Or, can you clarify by saying something like, "I mean to contrast between 'true' and 'proven'.  In the past, many true statements were believed true but were as yet unproven."  Is that what you mean?
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BOGWarrior89

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God does not exist
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2006, 08:08:50 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
You need to understand that, at one time, the "truth" of today was the opinion of one person.


Including mathematical truth?  I believe that the beginning of this tangent was somebody (possibly you) claiming something along those lines and somebody else (possibly me) pointing out that mathematical truths are an exception.  We have thus run one full lap in this discussion.

Anyway I'm not really ready to accept the suggestion that at some point in history the number 2 did not satisfy the definition of an even number, or that any other nowadays-accepted mathematical truths were at some point a matter of opinion.

Can you give an example of a mathematical truth that at some point was merely opinion, and not actually true?

Or, can you clarify by saying something like, "I mean to contrast between 'true' and 'proven'.  In the past, many true statements were believed true but were as yet unproven."  Is that what you mean?


The number zero is an excellent case.
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Erasmus

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God does not exist
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2006, 08:18:13 PM »
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
The number zero is an excellent case.


The number zero isn't a statement.  I'll make a statement out of it for you, one which I suspect will touch on the issue you have in mind: "Zero is a number."  Ah, but you see, now you are equivocating on "number".  Given a consistent and definition of the concept "number" it should be quite straightforward to determine whether zero is a number, and thus the numberhood of zero is a mathematical truth or falsehood.  If you are insisting on a definition of "number" that is not quite appropriately worked out, it is possible that the question of the numberhood of zero is undecidable, in which case it is not a matter of opinion; it is merely undecidable.

Do you have any other examples?  Specifically, do you have some examples that do not boil down to nit-picking over definitions?
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gogeta2478

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God does not exist
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2006, 09:27:52 PM »
show me pictures of soldiers gaurding the ice wall. Also show me an arial photo showing that the ice wall is circular. Show me evidence of a conspiracy, wait, there is no evidence because information never leaked, meaning the conspiracy is made up by flat earthers. They came up with a conspiracy to fit their FE theory. THEY came up with it. How about you guys get someone to on the inside? its called a mole. Very simple concept. How about you guys get  some of your people in government instead of squabbling on online forums you old people. Youll die knowing that the only thing you accomplished was an online argument with a college kid who was probly high most of the time.
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s the earth really flat?
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, maybe go fcuk yourself.
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TheEngineer

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God does not exist
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2006, 09:29:07 PM »
How about making posts that are on topic?
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"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson
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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2006, 12:52:28 PM »
Quote from: "Kryptid"
As stated before, there's the question of "what made God?", but there's also the question of "what caused the Big Bang?" Somewhere down the line, surely, there must have been some "first event".


Is it really necessary for there to be one? Can you create a proof that shows a first event is required?

Quote from: "Kryptid"
The fact that anything exists at all is mind-boggling. Why isn't there just nothing?


That is an excellent question. I have asked it many times, as has Stephen Hawking:

"Why does the Universe go through all the trouble of existing?"
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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2006, 12:55:00 PM »
Quote from: "CrimsonKing"
No, it also doesnt make it irrational.  It makes it a matter of insanity.
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Kryptid

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God does not exist
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2006, 01:31:10 PM »
Quote
Is it really necessary for there to be one?

We can't proove if there's a necessity for a god or not, since we can't (yet, if ever) fathom the workings of creation itself. Really, I'm just saying that since science has nothing to say about a god, then it can't be use as a grounds to say that the idea of a god is ridiculous.

Quote
Can you create a proof that shows a first event is required?

No. I was only using my limited human logic to deduce that there probably was some first event, since the idea of an infinite string of events extending indefinitely into the past makes no sense to me. Of course, things beyond human comprehension are possible.

Quote
That is an excellent question. I have asked it many times, as has Stephen Hawking:

"Why does the Universe go through all the trouble of existing?"

That's exactly the phrase I was thinking of when I typed that.
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 want a Flat-Earther to PM me, and tell me why they believe Samuel Rowbotham in the first place. If a Flat-Earther requires proof in order to believe something, then why do they believe this man, even though he provided no proof himself?
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CrimsonKing

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God does not exist
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2006, 02:31:56 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Quote from: "CrimsonKing"
No, it also doesnt make it irrational.  It makes it a matter of insanity.


first of all, you need to write that you changed the quote, in order to not misrepresent me.

Second of all, how does believing in something larger than yourself that you can never have proof for or against make something insane.  I'm pretty sure that is as close to the operative definition of faith as one could get.
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Knight

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God does not exist
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2006, 02:42:49 PM »
Quote from: "Kryptid"
I was only using my limited human logic to deduce that there probably was some first event, since the idea of an infinite string of events extending indefinitely into the past makes no sense to me.


The idea of "creation out of nothing" seems equally as absurd.  This is a question that can never be answered, in my opinion.
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ooyakasha!
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duh
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2006, 03:15:10 PM »
Come on friends, lets end this arguement. God doesnt exist. But, Flying Spaghetti Monster does. He is all that is holy and italian. Do not doubt him
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dysfunction

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God does not exist
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2006, 03:24:57 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Quote from: "CrimsonKing"
No, it also doesnt make it irrational.  It makes it a matter of insanity.


Can't you just drop it?
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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2006, 03:34:05 PM »
Quote from: "CrimsonKing"
Second of all, how does believing in something larger than yourself that you can never have proof for or against make something insane.  I'm pretty sure that is as close to the operative definition of faith as one could get.


Why would you believe in something you have no proof for? No logical reasons exist so is it...

Fancy, stupidity, insanity?
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BOGWarrior89

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God does not exist
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2006, 03:40:19 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
The number zero is an excellent case.


The number zero isn't a statement.  I'll make a statement out of it for you, one which I suspect will touch on the issue you have in mind: "Zero is a number."  Ah, but you see, now you are equivocating on "number".  Given a consistent and definition of the concept "number" it should be quite straightforward to determine whether zero is a number, and thus the numberhood of zero is a mathematical truth or falsehood.  If you are insisting on a definition of "number" that is not quite appropriately worked out, it is possible that the question of the numberhood of zero is undecidable, in which case it is not a matter of opinion; it is merely undecidable.

Do you have any other examples?  Specifically, do you have some examples that do not boil down to nit-picking over definitions?


You are a fool for believing in absolutes.
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Knight

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God does not exist
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2006, 03:44:50 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Why would you believe in something you have no proof for? No logical reasons exist so is it...

Fancy, stupidity, insanity?


Ubuntu, you have always seemed like a strict materialist to me.  You believe that atoms exist in a completely mechanistic framework and that they have followed the rules of physics and have yielded everything we see today based on cause and effect relations.  Let me ask you, do you believe that things (atoms) exist independent of our thinking about them?  That is, do you believe we are conscious entities within the material universe that exists, or do you believe that the the material is dependent upon our consciousness?
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ooyakasha!
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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2006, 03:49:02 PM »
Quote from: "dysfunction"
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Quote from: "CrimsonKing"
No, it also doesnt make it irrational.  It makes it a matter of insanity.


Can't you just drop it?


If I trumpeted that Elvis would come back from the dead in the next 60 years and again revolutionize the world of rock and roll, or that the Earth is flat, how would you react, or rather, most people? But if you are a politician in America, and you don't believe Jesus will be incarnated -- even possibly in your own lifetime -- it could be a detriment to your getting elected.
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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2006, 04:06:51 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
Ubuntu, you have always seemed like a strict materialist to me.  You believe that atoms exist in a completely mechanistic framework and that they have followed the rules of physics and have yielded everything we see today based on cause and effect relations.  Let me ask you, do you believe that things (atoms) exist independent of our thinking about them?  That is, do you believe we are conscious entities within the material universe that exists, or do you believe that the the material is dependent upon our consciousness?


This may be a bad example, because I see no acceptable definition of what "existence" is. No definition is definitive (or even universally accepted). Whenever existence is discussed in length, it almost always boils down to "I can see it and touch it." What is it to exist? It doesn't even seem to make much sense.

I believe the brain gives rise to consciousness (or rather that this is the probability).
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Erasmus

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God does not exist
« Reply #51 on: November 06, 2006, 04:56:27 PM »
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
You are a fool for believing in absolutes.


So, you're saying you don't have any other examples?

Look, I've been through the whole social-construction-of-reality thing and while I admit its usefulness on some level, metaphysically it's just nonsense.  Either that, or solipsism is true.... no, still just nonsense.
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Rossk #5!!

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God does not exist
« Reply #52 on: November 06, 2006, 04:56:33 PM »
I can easily prove that God exists in two ways.

1.  The Bible.
2.  Your existence, my existence, etc.
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the earth is a friggin sphere.
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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2006, 05:11:23 PM »
Quote from: "Rossk #5!!"
I can easily prove that God exists in two ways.

1.  The Bible.
2.  Your existence, my existence, etc.


1. Not proof - writing something does not make it true. Example:

This is the truth of the Creator of the Universe. It is inerrable. Monkies don't exist. This is the truth.

2. Non-sequitor.

Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
You are a fool for believing in absolutes.


So, you're saying you don't have any other examples?


Erasmus, he has seen he is wrong and resorted to attacks. Or just trolling.
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Erasmus

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God does not exist
« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2006, 05:23:07 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Erasmus, he has seen he is wrong and resorted to attacks. Or just trolling.


Well you know, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt... if he needs more time to look up examples or whatever.
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jaybird39

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God does not exist
« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2006, 05:26:01 PM »
Quote from: "Cheech6"
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Really?  When?


1492. thats when....


hey dude, wrong answer, People have known the shape of the earth long before columbus's time.

And no I am not saying flat earth anything. Study your history. Only commoners thought that the earth was flat. Anyone with serious education knew otherwise.
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dysfunction

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God does not exist
« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2006, 07:09:50 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Quote from: "dysfunction"
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Quote from: "CrimsonKing"
No, it also doesnt make it irrational.  It makes it a matter of insanity.


Can't you just drop it?


If I trumpeted that Elvis would come back from the dead in the next 60 years and again revolutionize the world of rock and roll, or that the Earth is flat, how would you react, or rather, most people? But if you are a politician in America, and you don't believe Jesus will be incarnated -- even possibly in your own lifetime -- it could be a detriment to your getting elected.


Look, you know I agree with you, but you, CK, and I have hashed this out a dozen times already. Let it go.
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Mephistopheles

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God does not exist
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2006, 07:27:59 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Quote from: "CrimsonKing"
Second of all, how does believing in something larger than yourself that you can never have proof for or against make something insane.  I'm pretty sure that is as close to the operative definition of faith as one could get.


Why would you believe in something you have no proof for? No logical reasons exist so is it...

Fancy, stupidity, insanity?


Why do you persist?  Your religion bashing is bordering on irritating.
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"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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BOGWarrior89

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  • We are as one.
God does not exist
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2006, 07:36:12 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
You are a fool for believing in absolutes.


So, you're saying you don't have any other examples?


Erasmus, he has seen he is wrong and resorted to attacks. Or just trolling.


Wrong isn't absolute.  Different people define what's "wrong" differently.
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beast

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God does not exist
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2006, 07:57:29 PM »
This is a little off topic but I meet with mormons once a week to discuss religion :).  It is very fun - I enjoy the debates a lot.  Of course they've made no progress at all.

However I have agreed to pray every day and ask God if he exists and if the gospels (including the book of Mormon) are true.

It's a bit of a logical fallacy because they say that people have done this for up to 8 years every day before they got an answer.  So the way I see it there are three possibilities.

1.  God does not exist and I will never get an answer or I will end up convincing myself of a false answer.

2.  God does exist and will answer me telling me this is true.

3.  God does exist but the gospels are false and that's what he'll tell me.

I think we can discount the third.  If we assume that I won't convince myself of something that is false then there are two options - either God exists and will answer my prayers or he doesn't exist and so obviously won't.  The problem is that he may take years to answer my prayers and there is a good chance I won't keep praying every day if that's the case.  If God actually exists and wants me to be a believer then he will be prompt.  But anyway - it's a logical fallacy because there is really only one definite answer I can get which is that God exists.  If he doesn't exist I'll never get an answer and if I give up they'll just say I needed to keep praying.

However I have nothing to lose so I'm going to give it a go anyway.  I'll keep you informed as to my results :)

Of course it is very tempting to tell the mormons that I had an amazing vision and that God came down and spoke to me and told me that all the religions are wrong and then to make my own religion up - like Joseph Smith - the founder of the Mormon church did.  :D  But I don't think I'd be able to keep a straight face.
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