Flight Paths

Ok, so I get it now.  Government workers never make mistakes, right?

Eh?  What are you talking about now?  Have you posted on the wrong thread?

With all of the "Scientific Proofs" that have fallen to the wayside over the past hundreds of years, how can you say with absolute certainty that these people are not simply mistaken?

I agree that numerous, presupposed scientific theories were subsequently disproved at a later period in time, but that's precisely how science works, and precisely why its 21st-century tenets are so accurate.  We've spoken about the classic example of "phlogiston" before as an example.

Science begins with a hypothesis, which is replicated and tested exhaustively.  If it' snot falsified, then it becomes a theory (such as electromagnetism or gravity or hydraulics).

I'd say all these pilots and flight controllers aren't collectively mistaken about basic flight paths, navigational instrumentation, electronics, trigonometry, radar vectoring and geography simply because the odds would have to be—literally—in the billions to one ratio.  There are currently more than 617,000 registered pilots in the US, and more than 15,000 air traffic controllers in the US.

Could they all be misinformed without realising it?  I don't think so.
 

And a ship or a plane follows a constant bearing along that arc, although obviously it crosses each meridian at a different physical angle: no turning left and no turning right.  Many flat earthers will tell you erroneously that the ship or plane is physically "turning slightly" all the time. 

The vessel/aircraft is either going straight or curving and the captain/pilot would know.  It's well known that the Mercator map was "developed for navigational purposes, has often been used in world maps where other projections would have been more appropriate. This problem has long been recognized even outside professional circles. For example a 1943 New York Times editorial states: The time has come to discard [the Mercator] for something that represents the continents and directions less deceptively... " - Wikipedia
So, if the map is deceptive, the globe is too and therefore, so is the Great Circle navigation.

The explanation is Relativity. Time moves at different speeds depending on where it is in reference to the center of the great disc. The flight is straight but the path looks curved RELATIVE to the FE, which is moving at different speeds THROUGH TIME in different locations. This movement through time explains the illusion of a RE-style rotation (the icy wall moves faster than the interior, creating the illusion of movement through space).

So, if the map is deceptive, the globe is too and therefore, so is the Great Circle navigation.

lol

The whole point of the critisism is that the Mercator distorts the continents shape and size because it is a projection of a 3D sphere onto a 2D rectangle.

If the earth were flat, then you wouldn't even need a projection - it would work in 2D with no distortion.

Do you seriously think that flight paths for internation airlines and shipping plan their routes via a Mercator projection? 

Quote from: EarthIsASpaceship on February 13, 2014, 06:46:11 PM

So, if the map is deceptive, the globe is too and therefore, so is the Great Circle navigation.

lol

The whole point of the critisism is that the Mercator distorts the continents shape and size because it is a projection of a 3D sphere onto a 2D rectangle.

If the earth were flat, then you wouldn't even need a projection - it would work in 2D with no distortion.

Do you seriously think that flight paths for internation airlines and shipping plan their routes via a Mercator projection?

The Mercator is a navigators map as it always keeps the lines of latitude and longitude exactly proportional to each other. As long as you remember that 9 Degrees is 5% of 180D on a Mercator map it will suit compass navigators better then any other map.

The Mercator map is the most popular because it's the most practical map to follow for air, sea and land compass navigation which is why many GPS systems are still programmed to follow Mercator map projections. However saying that it is true to it's goal it's also true that it does distort the perception of all landmasses in relation to the physical size of humans.

So Earth is a globe, or actually a perfect sphere that we live inside of and it's concave in shape and the celestial sphere is inside the Earth.

(This guys half nuts but his animations and explanations are pretty good)
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Quote from: jroa on February 12, 2014, 09:29:18 AM

With all of the "Scientific Proofs" that have fallen to the wayside over the past hundreds of years, how can you say with absolute certainty that these people are not simply mistaken?

I agree that numerous, presupposed scientific theories were subsequently disproved at a later period in time, but that's precisely how science works, and precisely why its 21st-century tenets are so accurate.  We've spoken about the classic example of "phlogiston" before as an example.

Science begins with a hypothesis, which is replicated and tested exhaustively.  If it' snot falsified, then it becomes a theory (such as electromagnetism or gravity or hydraulics).

I'd say all these pilots and flight controllers aren't collectively mistaken about basic flight paths, navigational instrumentation, electronics, trigonometry, radar vectoring and geography simply because the odds would have to be—literally—in the billions to one ratio.  There are currently more than 617,000 registered pilots in the US, and more than 15,000 air traffic controllers in the US.

Could they all be misinformed without realising it?  I don't think so.

There are also the engineers and technicians who design , manfacture , repair and maintain all those navigation aids, radars and computers involved in flight paths who would also be misinformed without realising it ? I don't have the exact figures on hand but there would be an additional several thousands involved. Or maybe they are just another segment of the vast RE Conspiracy ? They design, build and maintain those systems according to the - as the FE's call it - "The Round Earth /Theory/ Conspiracy" ? I don't think so. LOL. The system does work. Admittedly there are problems when one part of the complex fails, but that is rare.

Sculeus - Where is the moon and sun inside this sphere that we live on? Scale diagram with only essential lines preffered.

There are also the engineers and technicians who design , manfacture , repair and maintain all those navigation aids, radars and computers involved in flight paths who would also be misinformed without realising it ? I don't have the exact figures on hand but there would be an additional several thousands involved. Or maybe they are just another segment of the vast RE Conspiracy ? They design, build and maintain those systems according to the - as the FE's call it - "The Round Earth /Theory/ Conspiracy" ? I don't think so. LOL. The system does work. Admittedly there are problems when one part of the complex fails, but that is rare.

Those engineers and technicians know what they have read in text books.  They have no reason to question what they have been taught. 

In the middle ages, physicians were taught to leach or let the blood in order to cure illness.  Today we laugh at those practices, but in those days, there was no reason for the physicians to question the practices. 

You do not know any engineers who do query everything.  It is you who cannot explain why we do not see a rising horizon, satellites, Voyager spacecraft, a map of the earth etc.

You do not know any engineers who do query everything.  It is you who cannot explain why we do not see a rising horizon, satellites, Voyager spacecraft, a map of the earth etc.

Good job moving the goal posts, once again.  Every time you get backed into a corner, you completely change the subject.  I am temped to start issuing you with warnings. 

Good job moving the goal posts, once again.  Every time you get backed into a corner, you completely change the subject.  I am temped to start issuing you with warnings.

like comparing engineers being unwitting members of a conspiracy with doctors historicaly using leeches until a better technique was found? The blood letting for health benefits model didnt work so was improved upon. The round earth model works, and is yet to be improved upon. In the slightest. By anyone.

Good job moving the goal posts, once again.  Every time you get backed into a corner, you completely change the subject.  I am temped to start issuing you with warnings.

All point to the requirement for an agreed map of a flat earth with verified distances between a number of places such as Falklands/Perth, Russia/Alaska etc.

Why does this not exist?

Quote from: jroa on February 14, 2014, 10:41:05 AM

Good job moving the goal posts, once again.  Every time you get backed into a corner, you completely change the subject.  I am temped to start issuing you with warnings.

like comparing engineers being unwitting members of a conspiracy with doctors historicaly using leeches until a better technique was found? The blood letting for health benefits model didnt work so was improved upon. The round earth model works, and is yet to be improved upon. In the slightest. By anyone.

My analogy is sound.  People believe what they are taught in school, whether or it not it is true.  It does not matter if it works or not, the person believes it works and makes reality work around it. 

Quote from: jroa on February 14, 2014, 10:41:05 AM

Good job moving the goal posts, once again.  Every time you get backed into a corner, you completely change the subject.  I am temped to start issuing you with warnings.

All point to the requirement for an agreed map of a flat earth with verified distances between a number of places such as Falklands/Perth, Russia/Alaska etc.

Why does this not exist?

Ok, you go make a map and make sure that all of the distances are absolutely correct.  And, I don't mean just get the distances off of the internet. 

Quote from: glokta on February 14, 2014, 10:50:30 AM

Quote from: jroa on February 14, 2014, 10:41:05 AM

Good job moving the goal posts, once again.  Every time you get backed into a corner, you completely change the subject.  I am temped to start issuing you with warnings.

like comparing engineers being unwitting members of a conspiracy with doctors historicaly using leeches until a better technique was found? The blood letting for health benefits model didnt work so was improved upon. The round earth model works, and is yet to be improved upon. In the slightest. By anyone.

My analogy is sound.  People believe what they are taught in school, whether or it not it is true.  It does not matter if it works or not, the person believes it works and makes reality work around it.

People leave school and go to university and then into research. They are encouraged to 'think out of the box'.

Quote from: glokta on February 14, 2014, 10:50:30 AM

Quote from: jroa on February 14, 2014, 10:41:05 AM

Good job moving the goal posts, once again.  Every time you get backed into a corner, you completely change the subject.  I am temped to start issuing you with warnings.

like comparing engineers being unwitting members of a conspiracy with doctors historicaly using leeches until a better technique was found? The blood letting for health benefits model didnt work so was improved upon. The round earth model works, and is yet to be improved upon. In the slightest. By anyone.

My analogy is sound.  People believe what they are taught in school, whether or it not it is true.  It does not matter if it works or not, the person believes it works and makes reality work around it.

but it does matter if it works or not. That is how we progress by constantly learning and improving. No one still believes blood letting is a benefit. That would be like still believing the world is flat.

For many, many centuries, blood letting was considered to work.  Did it actually work?  Probably not, but that did not stop it from being taught at Universities across the civilized world.  Were the physicians lying or were they in a conspiracy when they practiced this?  No, they were just taught that it was true in school and so thought that it was a fact. 

For many, many centuries, blood letting was considered to work.  Did it actually work?  Probably not, but that did not stop it from being taught at Universities across the civilized world.  Were the physicians lying or were they in a conspiracy when they practiced this?  No, they were just taught that it was true in school and so thought that it was a fact.

and went on to improve upon it... Nothing has improved upon the round earth theory. Even sceptimatic getting his crayons out and tracing a globe..

Those engineers and technicians know what they have read in text books.

Engineers do what works.  The transponders on board the planes work.

Exactly what part of the system do you think is broken exactly?  The flight tracking systems are used millions of times a day without hitch.  Yet you suggest a systematic error in them which should cause the the whole system to break completely.  Yet it doesn't.....

I am not saying that flight tracking systems don't work.  I am simply questioning the exact place that these systems put the flights. 

I am not saying that flight tracking systems don't work.  I am simply questioning the exact place that these systems put the flights.

These sentences appear to contradict each other, though you are typically vague.

So, in an attempt to nail down jelly: Why are you "questioning the exact place that these systems put the flights."?  Have you found a particular problem?

I could project the positions of the air craft onto a cube.  Does that mean that the Earth is a cube?  I don't think so. 

Sorry for being vague, if I was.  I am not doing it on purpose.  I will try not to be in the future. 

I could project the positions of the air craft onto a cube.  Does that mean that the Earth is a cube?  I don't think so. 

Sorry for being vague, if I was.  I am not doing it on purpose.  I will try not to be in the future.

I have a sat nav that shows my position to within a few feet on a map wherever it can see a few satellites.

If we sit inside a 8000 mile earth how does that explain satellites 22000 miles above earth?

Quote from: jroa on February 14, 2014, 11:15:32 AM

I am not saying that flight tracking systems don't work.  I am simply questioning the exact place that these systems put the flights.

These sentences appear to contradict each other, though you are typically vague.

So, in an attempt to nail down jelly: Why are you "questioning the exact place that these systems put the flights."?  Have you found a particular problem?

i have a theory of my own: "when faced with something i cannot understand, rather than accept my lack of intelligence, if i dismiss it all as a great conspiracy i can claim superior intellect and put myself above all the indoctrinated imbeciles! I win with no need for self improvement!" I have tested this theory against various posts on this forum and I think it is sound.

Quote from: jroa on February 14, 2014, 11:23:45 AM

I could project the positions of the air craft onto a cube.  Does that mean that the Earth is a cube?  I don't think so. 

Sorry for being vague, if I was.  I am not doing it on purpose.  I will try not to be in the future.

I have a sat nav that shows my position to within a few feet on a map wherever it can see a few satellites.

If we sit inside a 8000 mile earth how does that explain satellites 22000 miles above earth?

My cell phone will tell me where I am, even with the GPS turned off.  This does not prove anything about whether or not there are satellites magically floating in the sky, now does it? 

Quote from: inquisitive on February 14, 2014, 11:42:39 AM

Quote from: jroa on February 14, 2014, 11:23:45 AM

I could project the positions of the air craft onto a cube.  Does that mean that the Earth is a cube?  I don't think so. 

Sorry for being vague, if I was.  I am not doing it on purpose.  I will try not to be in the future.

I have a sat nav that shows my position to within a few feet on a map wherever it can see a few satellites.

If we sit inside a 8000 mile earth how does that explain satellites 22000 miles above earth?

My cell phone will tell me where I am, even with the GPS turned off.  This does not prove anything about whether or not there are satellites magically floating in the sky, now does it?

turn your gps off then go for a walk. Now tell me if your phone can tell you your location to within 10 feet and your altitude. Spoiler alert - it cant.

Quote from: inquisitive on February 14, 2014, 11:42:39 AM

Quote from: jroa on February 14, 2014, 11:23:45 AM

I could project the positions of the air craft onto a cube.  Does that mean that the Earth is a cube?  I don't think so. 

Sorry for being vague, if I was.  I am not doing it on purpose.  I will try not to be in the future.

I have a sat nav that shows my position to within a few feet on a map wherever it can see a few satellites.

If we sit inside a 8000 mile earth how does that explain satellites 22000 miles above earth?

My cell phone will tell me where I am, even with the GPS turned off.  This does not prove anything about whether or not there are satellites magically floating in the sky, now does it?

What make/model is it?  Where there is no mobile coverage the GPS tells you where you are?

So, again, how does satellte tv work for south facing dishes on the south coast?

Quote from: jroa on February 14, 2014, 11:46:39 AM

Quote from: inquisitive on February 14, 2014, 11:42:39 AM

Quote from: jroa on February 14, 2014, 11:23:45 AM

I could project the positions of the air craft onto a cube.  Does that mean that the Earth is a cube?  I don't think so. 

Sorry for being vague, if I was.  I am not doing it on purpose.  I will try not to be in the future.

I have a sat nav that shows my position to within a few feet on a map wherever it can see a few satellites.

If we sit inside a 8000 mile earth how does that explain satellites 22000 miles above earth?

My cell phone will tell me where I am, even with the GPS turned off.  This does not prove anything about whether or not there are satellites magically floating in the sky, now does it?

turn your gps off then go for a walk. Now tell me if your phone can tell you your location to within 10 feet and your altitude. Spoiler alert - it cant.

The point is that satellites are not required in order to find one's position.  Can we agree on this? 

Quote from: jroa on February 14, 2014, 11:46:39 AM

Quote from: inquisitive on February 14, 2014, 11:42:39 AM

Quote from: jroa on February 14, 2014, 11:23:45 AM

I could project the positions of the air craft onto a cube.  Does that mean that the Earth is a cube?  I don't think so. 

Sorry for being vague, if I was.  I am not doing it on purpose.  I will try not to be in the future.

I have a sat nav that shows my position to within a few feet on a map wherever it can see a few satellites.

If we sit inside a 8000 mile earth how does that explain satellites 22000 miles above earth?

My cell phone will tell me where I am, even with the GPS turned off.  This does not prove anything about whether or not there are satellites magically floating in the sky, now does it?

What make/model is it?  Where there is no mobile coverage the GPS tells you where you are?

So, again, how does satellte tv work for south facing dishes on the south coast?

Once again, stop derailing.  It is against the rules.

8. Low-content Posting/Derailment
Do not make spammy, non-contributive or low-quality posts, or derail threads by deliberately dragging discussion away from the original topic.