Flight Paths

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robintex

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #180 on: February 16, 2014, 05:16:31 PM »
The flight paths are displayed on a flat map.  The Earth could be any shape and this flat map is just a convenience, so it really is not proof one way or the other for the shape of the Earth.  We are just supposed to take their word that the flat map represents a round world.  Do you see my point now?

Just a few passing remarks before shutting down for the night.:

1.On any other place than this forum it would be "common knowledge" that all flat maps are made from various projections of a globe - or in the Flat Earth reference a "Round Earth." Depending on how many "9's" you put after the   decimal point you put after it 99.99999999999 % of the world knows this to be true. There is no question of the accuracy of flight paths in the real world.For example, FAA Sectional Charts are made from segments from a Round Earth and are limited in area to minimize any distortion.

2. For example.:How could you possibly make an accurate map of a flight path in the southern hemisphere from the so-called "Unipolar Flat Earth Map ?" Or for that matter the "Bi Polar" or "Antarctica as a Continent" map ? If you were to make a Sectional Chart for flight paths in Australia from the flat earth map of the world  for example it would have all the distortions as in the flat earth map of the world.

3.Can you explain why the so-called Flat Earth Map is or is not simply a map made by one method of a projection from a gobe or "Round Earth ?"

4.jroa : By your signature line would that be inferring that the mentality level of Flat Earthers is second grade level ?

My apologies for intruding on this website. My excuse is that I am simply too much of a realist who works in the real world.

jroa If you ever get around to it, could you at least give me an answer to my question #4 ?

Answers to numbers 1, 2 and 3 would also be appreciated. ::)
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

?

jtlondon83

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #181 on: February 16, 2014, 05:22:15 PM »
A flat map of a flat earth would have no distortions. Unfortunately, all flat maps have some level of distortion. The good ones (intended for navigation) will have information on them indicating the most accurate (undistorted) part of the map. Why would this be so if the earth were flat?

Also, I posted the following in another thread, but it might be more appropriately placed here. I would like to see your response.

I don't remember ever seeing a globe in the cockpit of an airplane...

We've been here before, many times.

I just pulled out a WAC* that I had lying about and checked to see what area it covered. It covers an area ~570km by ~440km. Now, go get a globe, mark out an area 570km by 440km, and tell me how much it deviates from 'flat'. Not much you say? That's why flat maps are okay for navigation on a spherical earth.

* World Aeronautical Chart, specifically number 3357. These charts are used by pilots flying VFR (visual flight rules) to plan trips and to navigate. They work. They work exceptionally well. They are slightly distorted at the edges though, due to the fact that they are a flat representation of a round surface, but because they only cover a small area (by design), the distortions are not severe enough to cause problems.

In another thread, alfa156melb said that pilots do not fly VFR, they only fly IFR.  Are you now saying he is wrong? 

What information do you think those |instruments are using to provide guidance? The same information that the pilot would use if he was flying VFR, obviously - the data about what's really out there.

You're like a bloody object lesson in logical fallacy mate, this has to be a joke or else I don't understand how you've managed to survive this long, I really don't

Ere is your flat earth map again:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Flat_earth.png

Measure the distance between two major cities in North America and Northern Europe on both maps then we'll look up how long a flight takes between them and the we'll use that INFORMATION to make a JUDGEMENT about which one is accurate and what that might mean in terms of this 'debate'.

Alternatively, don't do it and I'll assume that's a tacit acceptance that you are not confident in what the result will do for you r'argument'.

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Scintific Method

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #182 on: February 16, 2014, 05:28:30 PM »
A flat map of a flat earth would have no distortions. Unfortunately, all flat maps have some level of distortion. The good ones (intended for navigation) will have information on them indicating the most accurate (undistorted) part of the map. Why would this be so if the earth were flat?

Also, I posted the following in another thread, but it might be more appropriately placed here. I would like to see your response.

I don't remember ever seeing a globe in the cockpit of an airplane...

We've been here before, many times.

I just pulled out a WAC* that I had lying about and checked to see what area it covered. It covers an area ~570km by ~440km. Now, go get a globe, mark out an area 570km by 440km, and tell me how much it deviates from 'flat'. Not much you say? That's why flat maps are okay for navigation on a spherical earth.

* World Aeronautical Chart, specifically number 3357. These charts are used by pilots flying VFR (visual flight rules) to plan trips and to navigate. They work. They work exceptionally well. They are slightly distorted at the edges though, due to the fact that they are a flat representation of a round surface, but because they only cover a small area (by design), the distortions are not severe enough to cause problems.

In another thread, alfa156melb said that pilots do not fly VFR, they only fly IFR.  Are you now saying he is wrong?

Commercial airlines typically fly IFR because of the altitude at which they fly. Private pilots can fly IFR if they are rated for it, otherwise they must fly VFR. Recreational pilots, such as myself, must fly day VFR only. In the context of alfa156melb's post, he is correct, as he was referring to commercial airline pilots. If you read my post (above), you will see that I refer to "pilots flying VFR", being a subset of all pilots.

Now, would you like to actually address the point?
Quote from: jtelroy
...the FE'ers still found a way to deny it. Not with counter arguments. Not with proof of any kind. By simply denying it.

"Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt."

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jtlondon83

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #183 on: February 16, 2014, 05:31:11 PM »
A flat map of a flat earth would have no distortions. Unfortunately, all flat maps have some level of distortion. The good ones (intended for navigation) will have information on them indicating the most accurate (undistorted) part of the map. Why would this be so if the earth were flat?

Also, I posted the following in another thread, but it might be more appropriately placed here. I would like to see your response.

I don't remember ever seeing a globe in the cockpit of an airplane...

We've been here before, many times.

I just pulled out a WAC* that I had lying about and checked to see what area it covered. It covers an area ~570km by ~440km. Now, go get a globe, mark out an area 570km by 440km, and tell me how much it deviates from 'flat'. Not much you say? That's why flat maps are okay for navigation on a spherical earth.

* World Aeronautical Chart, specifically number 3357. These charts are used by pilots flying VFR (visual flight rules) to plan trips and to navigate. They work. They work exceptionally well. They are slightly distorted at the edges though, due to the fact that they are a flat representation of a round surface, but because they only cover a small area (by design), the distortions are not severe enough to cause problems.

In another thread, alfa156melb said that pilots do not fly VFR, they only fly IFR.  Are you now saying he is wrong?

Commercial airlines typically fly IFR because of the altitude at which they fly. Private pilots can fly IFR if they are rated for it, otherwise they must fly VFR. Recreational pilots, such as myself, must fly day VFR only. In the context of alfa156melb's post, he is correct, as he was referring to commercial airline pilots. If you read my post (above), you will see that I refer to "pilots flying VFR", being a subset of all pilots.

Now, would you like to actually address the point?

I can tell you now that no, no he will not be addressing the point

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robintex

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #184 on: February 16, 2014, 05:32:47 PM »
A flat map of a flat earth would have no distortions. Unfortunately, all flat maps have some level of distortion. The good ones (intended for navigation) will have information on them indicating the most accurate (undistorted) part of the map. Why would this be so if the earth were flat?

Also, I posted the following in another thread, but it might be more appropriately placed here. I would like to see your response.

I don't remember ever seeing a globe in the cockpit of an airplane...

We've been here before, many times.

I just pulled out a WAC* that I had lying about and checked to see what area it covered. It covers an area ~570km by ~440km. Now, go get a globe, mark out an area 570km by 440km, and tell me how much it deviates from 'flat'. Not much you say? That's why flat maps are okay for navigation on a spherical earth.

* World Aeronautical Chart, specifically number 3357. These charts are used by pilots flying VFR (visual flight rules) to plan trips and to navigate. They work. They work exceptionally well. They are slightly distorted at the edges though, due to the fact that they are a flat representation of a round surface, but because they only cover a small area (by design), the distortions are not severe enough to cause problems.

"Sectional Charts" in the USA  are in the same manner as the World Aernautical Chart . They also cover a small  enough area so that there is relatively little distortion. The question that an aviator would have to carry a globe is just another inane FE fantasy. And it all goes back to the source- the globe from which these maps were map.

Ifjroa can explain how accurate Sectional Charts could be made from the Flat Earth Map of Australia I would be interested in hearing it.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 05:55:43 PM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

*

Son of Orospu

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #185 on: February 16, 2014, 05:37:42 PM »
The flight paths are displayed on a flat map.  The Earth could be any shape and this flat map is just a convenience, so it really is not proof one way or the other for the shape of the Earth.  We are just supposed to take their word that the flat map represents a round world.  Do you see my point now?

Just a few passing remarks before shutting down for the night.:

1.On any other place than this forum it would be "common knowledge" that all flat maps are made from various projections of a globe - or in the Flat Earth reference a "Round Earth." Depending on how many "9's" you put after the   decimal point you put after it 99.99999999999 % of the world knows this to be true. There is no question of the accuracy of flight paths in the real world.For example, FAA Sectional Charts are made from segments from a Round Earth and are limited in area to minimize any distortion.

2. For example.:How could you possibly make an accurate map of a flight path in the southern hemisphere from the so-called "Unipolar Flat Earth Map ?" Or for that matter the "Bi Polar" or "Antarctica as a Continent" map ? If you were to make a Sectional Chart for flight paths in Australia from the flat earth map of the world  for example it would have all the distortions as in the flat earth map of the world.

3.Can you explain why the so-called Flat Earth Map is or is not simply a map made by one method of a projection from a gobe or "Round Earth ?"

4.jroa : By your signature line would that be inferring that the mentality level of Flat Earthers is second grade level ?

My apologies for intruding on this website. My excuse is that I am simply too much of a realist who works in the real world.

jroa If you ever get around to it, could you at least give me an answer to my question #4 ?

Answers to numbers 1, 2 and 3 would also be appreciated. ::)

Googleotomy, I suppose it is not a good signature, seeing as the meaning is not self evident.  However, it is meant to be a light hearted signature, not a serious one.

The reasons I believed it to be humorous are the following:
     1.  The signature offers a matter-of-fact answer without any substantiating proof, which is something that RE'ers often claim FE'ers are guilty of.
     2.  It is written in a condescending manner, treating the reader as if he/she is in second grade or just a child.
     3.  It is a parody on the childhood indoctrination that is sometimes claimed about RE'ers.  In other words, children believe what they are taught in school without questioning it and grow up to be adults who then believe it is all indisputable facts. 

When I think of a better signature, I will change it.

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alfa156melb

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #186 on: February 16, 2014, 05:40:55 PM »
A flat map of a flat earth would have no distortions. Unfortunately, all flat maps have some level of distortion. The good ones (intended for navigation) will have information on them indicating the most accurate (undistorted) part of the map. Why would this be so if the earth were flat?

Also, I posted the following in another thread, but it might be more appropriately placed here. I would like to see your response.

I don't remember ever seeing a globe in the cockpit of an airplane...

We've been here before, many times.

I just pulled out a WAC* that I had lying about and checked to see what area it covered. It covers an area ~570km by ~440km. Now, go get a globe, mark out an area 570km by 440km, and tell me how much it deviates from 'flat'. Not much you say? That's why flat maps are okay for navigation on a spherical earth.

* World Aeronautical Chart, specifically number 3357. These charts are used by pilots flying VFR (visual flight rules) to plan trips and to navigate. They work. They work exceptionally well. They are slightly distorted at the edges though, due to the fact that they are a flat representation of a round surface, but because they only cover a small area (by design), the distortions are not severe enough to cause problems.

In another thread, alfa156melb said that pilots do not fly VFR, they only fly IFR.  Are you now saying he is wrong?

No i did not say that.

I said, Commercial flights use IFR.. in fact I should have been more specific - any operation that requires a flight to fly in Class A airspace must fly IFR. Class A airspace in the States is airspace over 18,000 feet.

Although there are some commercial flights that would fly VFR, they are limited.. an example might be photographic flights, surveys, joy flights.  Very small scale pax operations.. some of the twin engine flights out to the desert here..

So, as you would expect any flights that cruise over 18,000 feet, most airlines for example, are IFR.

Private pilots on the other hand most of them are not IFR rated and mostly fly planes that are not IFR approved.. some do, some dont..  most PPL's (private pilots) are only single engine VFR approved.. so most private flights are VFR. Although a PPL can get and IFR rating and can fly IFR if they so choose - expensive to keep current though. I let my IFR go for that reason.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 05:43:59 PM by alfa156melb »

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jtlondon83

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #187 on: February 16, 2014, 05:46:47 PM »

     3.  It is a parody on the childhood indoctrination that is sometimes claimed about RE'ers.  In other words, children believe what they are taught in school without questioning it and grow up to be adults who then believe it is all indisputable facts. 


That would be some kids of course, not all. You can't really generalise about every human ever now can you.

Assuming that the information that is taught in schools gis subject to some sort of scrutiny and oversight, which is clearly is in the Developed World at least, then it could be said to be a better source than wherever you're getting your information from (WHICH WE STILL HAVEN'T SEEN IN ANY FORM WHATSOEVER BY THE WAY) given that it's the best possible answer available at any moment, as i'm sure you are aware that is the basis for most human knowledge.

Also, last time - facts are not disputable, that's why they're called facts. Theories are disputable

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alfa156melb

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #188 on: February 16, 2014, 05:48:44 PM »

     3.  It is a parody on the childhood indoctrination that is sometimes claimed about RE'ers.  In other words, children believe what they are taught in school without questioning it and grow up to be adults who then believe it is all indisputable facts. 


That would be some kids of course, not all. You can't really generalise about every human ever now can you.

Assuming that the information that is taught in schools gis subject to some sort of scrutiny and oversight, which is clearly is in the Developed World at least, then it could be said to be a better source than wherever you're getting your information from (WHICH WE STILL HAVEN'T SEEN IN ANY FORM WHATSOEVER BY THE WAY) given that it's the best possible answer available at any moment, as i'm sure you are aware that is the basis for most human knowledge.

Also, last time - facts are not disputable, that's why they're called facts. Theories are disputable

if we're talking about the US education system then he may well be right! lol it is pretty lackluster.

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robintex

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #189 on: February 16, 2014, 06:56:06 PM »
The flight paths are displayed on a flat map.  The Earth could be any shape and this flat map is just a convenience, so it really is not proof one way or the other for the shape of the Earth.  We are just supposed to take their word that the flat map represents a round world.  Do you see my point now?

Just a few passing remarks before shutting down for the night.:

1.On any other place than this forum it would be "common knowledge" that all flat maps are made from various projections of a globe - or in the Flat Earth reference a "Round Earth." Depending on how many "9's" you put after the   decimal point you put after it 99.99999999999 % of the world knows this to be true. There is no question of the accuracy of flight paths in the real world.For example, FAA Sectional Charts are made from segments from a Round Earth and are limited in area to minimize any distortion.

2. For example.:How could you possibly make an accurate map of a flight path in the southern hemisphere from the so-called "Unipolar Flat Earth Map ?" Or for that matter the "Bi Polar" or "Antarctica as a Continent" map ? If you were to make a Sectional Chart for flight paths in Australia from the flat earth map of the world  for example it would have all the distortions as in the flat earth map of the world.

3.Can you explain why the so-called Flat Earth Map is or is not simply a map made by one method of a projection from a gobe or "Round Earth ?"

4.jroa : By your signature line would that be inferring that the mentality level of Flat Earthers is second grade level ?

My apologies for intruding on this website. My excuse is that I am simply too much of a realist who works in the real world.

jroa If you ever get around to it, could you at least give me an answer to my question #4 ?

Answers to numbers 1, 2 and 3 would also be appreciated. ::)

Googleotomy, I suppose it is not a good signature, seeing as the meaning is not self evident.  However, it is meant to be a light hearted signature, not a serious one.

The reasons I believed it to be humorous are the following:
     1.  The signature offers a matter-of-fact answer without any substantiating proof, which is something that RE'ers often claim FE'ers are guilty of.
     2.  It is written in a condescending manner, treating the reader as if he/she is in second grade or just a child.
     3.  It is a parody on the childhood indoctrination that is sometimes claimed about RE'ers.  In other words, children believe what they are taught in school without questioning it and grow up to be adults who then believe it is all indisputable facts. 

When I think of a better signature, I will change it.

It was intended to be humorous. It is becoming increasingly impossible  to visit this website with a straight face. But your efforts are nonetheless appreciated.

I know you will consider this off topic. But if you had studied French or Spanish in school without questioning it and grow  up to be an adult would you then believe it is all indisputable facts ? If you were to have studied math in school and later engineering would you grow up to be an adult and then believe it is all indisputable facts. That is how it works in the real world. And that is why we Round Earthers manage to keep things going. And we do have facts and evidence.....and a map...And FE's have none of them .

And keep coming back .See the first part of my signature......BTW & FWIW It was intended to be humorous, too. LOL.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 07:13:29 PM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

?

inquisitive

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #190 on: February 17, 2014, 02:01:52 PM »
Please confirm the flight path from the Falklands to Australia with details of any countries passed over, plus the actual distance, on a flat earth.

Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #191 on: February 17, 2014, 02:29:12 PM »

Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #192 on: February 17, 2014, 02:36:26 PM »
Please confirm the flight path from the Falklands to Australia with details of any countries passed over, plus the actual distance, on a flat earth.
It's no different.  Just look at the FE map and you can clearly see it flies over the ocean.

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inquisitive

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #193 on: February 17, 2014, 02:38:48 PM »
Just found this on Youtube:
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">
Flightradar relies on people with home receivers, not many in the artic!  Receiver has a range of about 60 miles.

Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #194 on: February 17, 2014, 02:49:06 PM »
Flightradar relies on people with home receivers, not many in the artic!  Receiver has a range of about 60 miles.
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

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inquisitive

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #195 on: February 17, 2014, 02:56:50 PM »
Please confirm the flight path from the Falklands to Australia with details of any countries passed over, plus the actual distance, on a flat earth.
It's no different.  Just look at the FE map and you can clearly see it flies over the ocean.
Which one and via the north pole?

Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #196 on: February 17, 2014, 03:05:04 PM »
The one shown on this site.  No, not over the Pole.  South West.

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inquisitive

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #197 on: February 17, 2014, 03:17:04 PM »
The one shown on this site.  No, not over the Pole.  South West.
Where, what is the distance?

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alfa156melb

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #198 on: February 17, 2014, 03:20:10 PM »
Just found this on Youtube:
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

The only thing funnier than that igornat rant, is someone buying it. It comes as no suprise that it is EarthIsASpaceship.

So I decided to reply to that fool, here's what I said:

OK, another ignorant flat earther..  For a start, commercial jets avoid the poles for one reason - SAFETY.  if they have to ditch, the last thing they want is for the passengers to all die of exposure within a minute or two of the emergency landing.

Heavy jets land on Antarctica all the time. The fuel does not freeze, wiki (as usual) is wrong.  Military jets also use different grade fuel, less flammable, lower freezing point.

GPS works perfectly over the poles, compass do not. Other nav aids like VOR, NDB etc, do work.  Heavy Jets use electronic navigation aids, compass is secondary to GPS, VOR, NDB, Inertial Nav and others. Poles, no poles - makes no difference.  A compass in a plane these days is only ever used to cross check other instruments accuracy.. some directional indicators on small planes lose their position of a while and have to readjusted using the compass. not the case for a heavy jet though.

You commented that they cannot be within 3 hours of a landing strip over some oceans - absolute rubbish.At altitude, they cruise at 530knots, assuming there is no wind (for the sake of argument) that is a ground speed (based on a 32,000ft cruise altitude) of - 870knots (1,611kph!). So they have to be within 3 hours (not sure of that's true actually) of a landing strip - at 1,611kph, thats within 4,833km of an airport at all times... I think you'll find that covers all allocated flight corridors.

And finally, the only flights that Flightradare24 show are those with the latest transponders fitted.. there are literally hundreds of flights flying around the Artic, some right up to and over the North Pole, but they are generally much smaller, as the communities there are small, so the number of people on board the aircraft are small.

I wonder how much it must hurt you to live within that tiny brain of yours.

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alfa156melb

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #199 on: February 17, 2014, 03:22:04 PM »
Just found this on Youtube:
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">
Flightradar relies on people with home receivers, not many in the artic!  Receiver has a range of about 60 miles.

No it relies on the aircraft having the latest Transponder fitted which broadcasts data that the website can feed from..  that's all.

ADS-B transponders...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_dependent_surveillance-broadcast

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alfa156melb

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #200 on: February 17, 2014, 03:24:06 PM »
Flightradar relies on people with home receivers, not many in the artic!  Receiver has a range of about 60 miles.
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

As you can see, there are some flights over the north.. and you can also see Africa is empty.. for the same reasons Antarctica is.. safety.  The last thing you wanna do is crash in remote locations like those..

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inquisitive

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #201 on: February 17, 2014, 03:30:18 PM »
Just found this on Youtube:
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">
Flightradar relies on people with home receivers, not many in the artic!  Receiver has a range of about 60 miles.

No it relies on the aircraft having the latest Transponder fitted which broadcasts data that the website can feed from..  that's all.

ADS-B transponders...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_dependent_surveillance-broadcast
Majority of receivers are volunteers and their map shows where there are gaps in coverage.

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alfa156melb

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #202 on: February 17, 2014, 03:43:12 PM »
There are no 'volunteers' - the feed is taken from the FAA..

Flightradar24 is a flight tracker that shows live air traffic from around the world. Flightradar24 combines data from several data sources including ADS-B, MLAT and FAA. The ADS-B, MLAT and FAA data is aggregated together with schedule and flight status data from airlines and airports to create a unique flight tracking experience on www.flightradar24.com and in Flightradar24 apps. - Flightradar24 FAQ.

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inquisitive

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #203 on: February 17, 2014, 03:47:19 PM »
There are no 'volunteers' - the feed is taken from the FAA..

Flightradar24 is a flight tracker that shows live air traffic from around the world. Flightradar24 combines data from several data sources including ADS-B, MLAT and FAA. The ADS-B, MLAT and FAA data is aggregated together with schedule and flight status data from airlines and airports to create a unique flight tracking experience on www.flightradar24.com and in Flightradar24 apps. - Flightradar24 FAQ.
I have a ADS-B receiver that can be constructed for ~$20 and could feed flightradar.

http://www.flightradar24.com/how-it-works

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alfa156melb

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #204 on: February 17, 2014, 03:49:47 PM »
ohh. sorry im misunderstood you.. yeah ok..

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inquisitive

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #205 on: February 17, 2014, 04:22:16 PM »
The one shown on this site.  No, not over the Pole.  South West.
Where, what is the distance?
Link to map and distance please.