Hurricane tracks

Quote from: rottingroom on August 27, 2013, 03:29:55 PM

Quote from: Ævan on August 27, 2013, 03:27:05 PM

Quote from: Rama Set on August 27, 2013, 03:22:12 PM

Quote from: Ævan on August 27, 2013, 03:08:31 PM

Hurricanes are not coming across the Soutern Atlantic from Africa, where all the criteria are met. Round Earth theory shudders to a halt.

It's like you ignored everything rottingroom wrote.

No I read it. I'm also well educated in climatology. I was not satisfied with the answer.

Quote from: rottingroom on August 27, 2013, 03:25:31 PM

Quote from: Ævan on August 27, 2013, 03:08:31 PM

Hurricanes are not coming across the Soutern Atlantic from Africa, where all the criteria are met. Round Earth theory shudders to a halt.

What? The water isn't warm enough guy. It may be warm and shallow enough over by Africa but then it has cross the freaking ocean. Just stay on topic.

No, why are the hurricanes not forming over Africa and coming across the ocean in the southern hemisphere?

Hurricanes form over water. For someone well educated in climatology it sure doesn't show. I'm an Aerographer's Mate for the US Navy. My job is Meteorology and Oceanography. I spend all day dealing with satellites and weather balloons. Just stop.

If you look at your own maps you ignorant idiot, you will see that hurricanes form from hot continental air that is subsequently driven over an ocean. No ocean is warm enough to create a hurricane by itself. 

Warm continental air will create a land breeze. That's about it. Once again this is about the tracks and why they would do this on a flat earth model. Still have not seen one explanation. Just nit picking over the picture.

I want to know on a round earth, why hurricanes do not occur in the Southern Atlantic. Something about your map/theory is wrong.

I want to know on a round earth, why hurricanes do not occur in the Southern Atlantic. Something about your map/theory is wrong.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+hurricanes+do+not+occur+in+the+Southern+Atlantic

Here's one answer from about 30 seconds of research:

"They do but not very often. There are three requirements for the formation of tropical revolving storms. They cannot form within 5° of the equator; there must be a pre-existing low pressure system; and the sea surface temperature must be above 26°C. It is this last that causes the problem.

If you look at the areas where these storms form most frequently - the South China Sea and the Caribbean Sea and the other areas like the seas around Australia and the northern Indian ocean, they are all large shallow seas with land or islands in close proximity. The sea surface reaches 26° easily. In the south Atlantic there is very little between the coast of South America and the coast of Africa. It is deep ocean that is on the move. The sea surface temperature seldom reaches 26°C and when it does, it doesn't stay there long enough for a storm to generate.

The warm seas provide the fuel for the system. Evaporation from the sea puts water vapor into the air which condenses as cloud and releases latent heat in doing so. It is the latent heat that fuels the hurricane. If the seas are not warm enough, there is insufficient fuel to get the system going."

World temperature maps suggest something is wrong with your maps or your theory. Why are hurricanes not hitting Brazil?

Quote from: Ævan on August 28, 2013, 12:37:50 PM

I want to know on a round earth, why hurricanes do not occur in the Southern Atlantic. Something about your map/theory is wrong.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+hurricanes+do+not+occur+in+the+Southern+Atlantic

Here's one answer from about 30 seconds of research:

"They do but not very often. There are three requirements for the formation of tropical revolving storms. They cannot form within 5° of the equator; there must be a pre-existing low pressure system; and the sea surface temperature must be above 26°C. It is this last that causes the problem.

If you look at the areas where these storms form most frequently - the South China Sea and the Caribbean Sea and the other areas like the seas around Australia and the northern Indian ocean, they are all large shallow seas with land or islands in close proximity. The sea surface reaches 26° easily. In the south Atlantic there is very little between the coast of South America and the coast of Africa. It is deep ocean that is on the move. The sea surface temperature seldom reaches 26°C and when it does, it doesn't stay there long enough for a storm to generate.

The warm seas provide the fuel for the system. Evaporation from the sea puts water vapor into the air which condenses as cloud and releases latent heat in doing so. It is the latent heat that fuels the hurricane. If the seas are not warm enough, there is insufficient fuel to get the system going."

Is it even debatable as to where hurricanes go and where they come from. Why is this guy asking such dumb questions that detract from the relevance of the thread. As I said, he is attempting to  derail it.

World temperature maps suggest something is wrong with your maps or your theory. Why are hurricanes not hitting Brazil?

What? I don't dispute the map you are posting. What theory? Are the tracks of hurricanes controversial?

Is it even debatable as to where hurricanes go and where they come from. Why is this guy asking such dumb questions that detract from the relevance of the thread. As I said, he is attempting to  derail it.

You cannot say, "Here is our theory (which I can't explain). Now please explain yours."

Quote from: Ævan on August 28, 2013, 12:49:56 PM

World temperature maps suggest something is wrong with your maps or your theory. Why are hurricanes not hitting Brazil?

What? I don't dispute the map you are posting. What theory? Are the tracks of hurricanes controversial?

Why no hurricanes hitting Brazil? The earth is a ball. You are claiming these patterns are driven by Coriolis. So why is Coriolis not driving hurricanes from Africa into Brazil? The conditions are perfect. Coriolis should take them that way. Why is it not working?

My answer is that you are wrong about earth being a spinning ball.

Quote from: rottingroom on August 28, 2013, 12:51:14 PM

Is it even debatable as to where hurricanes go and where they come from. Why is this guy asking such dumb questions that detract from the relevance of the thread. As I said, he is attempting to  derail it.

You cannot say, "Here is our theory (which I can't explain). Now please explain yours."

Quote from: rottingroom on August 28, 2013, 12:52:38 PM

Quote from: Ævan on August 28, 2013, 12:49:56 PM

World temperature maps suggest something is wrong with your maps or your theory. Why are hurricanes not hitting Brazil?

What? I don't dispute the map you are posting. What theory? Are the tracks of hurricanes controversial?

Why no hurricanes hitting Brazil? The earth is a ball. You are claiming these patterns are driven my Coriolis. So why is Coriolis not driving hurricanes from Africa into Brazil? The conditions are perfect. Coriolis should take them that way. Why is it not working?

My answer is that you are wrong about earth being a spinning ball.

24C is 75F, you need water to be 80F for a hurricane to generate. So the areas on your map that show red areas do not specifically correlate to water being hot enough for genesis. Also the areas near Africa shown in red are within about 5 degrees of the Equator which is, again... a place where genesis cannot occur. Now go away.

Edit: typo... water needs to be 80F not 80C... obviously.

Your map actually drives my point home more than it helps you.

24C is 75F, you need water to be 80F for a hurricane to generate. So the areas on your map that show red areas do not specifically correlate to water being hot enough for genesis. Also the areas near Africa shown in red are within about 5 degrees of the Equator which is, again... a place where genesis cannot occur. Now go away.

Edit: typo... water needs to be 80F not 80C... obviously.

> means more than. Not equal to. Let me give you another map. This one is from NASA so you'll enjoy this.


Same bit of water is more than 28 degrees centigrade which is 82.4 degees farenheit. Hot enough for hurricanes. I'll also draw your attention to the fact that these are AVERAGE sea temperatures and that it gets very much hotter in the summer (our winter).

So, why no hurricanes in Brazil?

Your map actually drives my point home more than it helps you.

You only think that because you don't understand it.

It is too close to the equator.

It is too close to the equator.

The location of Sao Paulo is 23° 32' 0" S / 46° 37' 0" W.

It only needs to be 5°S. Its 18 degrees further than that. Its not too close to the equator.

Why no hurricanes hitting Brazil? The earth is a ball. You are claiming these patterns are driven by Coriolis. So why is Coriolis not driving hurricanes from Africa into Brazil? The conditions are perfect. Coriolis should take them that way. Why is it not working?

My answer is that you are wrong about earth being a spinning ball.

You apparently ignored my previous answer, so I'll iterate.

Three things are required for a hurricane to form: the first being that it's not within 5 degrees of the equator; the second being a low-pressure system; the third being water warmer than 26 degrees.

Places that see the most hurricanes are where the ocean is pretty shallow, such as the Caribbean Sea, allowing the water to more easily reach the required temperature. The Atlantic Ocean between South America and Africa isn't shallow, and is thus usually colder than the Caribbean.

Brazil is also close to the equator, as are the parts of Africa that might get the required conditions for hurricanes. But hurricanes can't form close to the equator, so there wouldn't be any hurricanes to transfer from Africa to South America.

Third, I'm not sure how often the central Atlantic gets low-pressure systems in which hurricanes could form. So even if the other two conditions were met, evidence goes to show that there just isn't any low-pressure system available.

Quote from: Ævan on August 28, 2013, 12:55:32 PM

Why no hurricanes hitting Brazil? The earth is a ball. You are claiming these patterns are driven by Coriolis. So why is Coriolis not driving hurricanes from Africa into Brazil? The conditions are perfect. Coriolis should take them that way. Why is it not working?

My answer is that you are wrong about earth being a spinning ball.

You apparently ignored my previous answer, so I'll iterate.

No, I read it, you must have missed my reply. I'll reiterate.

Three things are required for a hurricane to form: the first being that it's not within 5 degrees of the equator [check]; the second being a low-pressure system[check] ; the third being water warmer than 26 degrees.[check]

You're move.

Quote from: Alex Tomasovich on August 28, 2013, 01:17:21 PM

Quote from: Ævan on August 28, 2013, 12:55:32 PM

Why no hurricanes hitting Brazil? The earth is a ball. You are claiming these patterns are driven by Coriolis. So why is Coriolis not driving hurricanes from Africa into Brazil? The conditions are perfect. Coriolis should take them that way. Why is it not working?

My answer is that you are wrong about earth being a spinning ball.

You apparently ignored my previous answer, so I'll iterate.

No, I read it, you must have missed my reply. I'll reiterate.

Quote from: Alex Tomasovich on August 28, 2013, 01:17:21 PM

Three things are required for a hurricane to form: the first being that it's not within 5 degrees of the equator [check]; the second being a low-pressure system[check] ; the third being water warmer than 26 degrees.[check]

You're move.

You make very good points but it seems cyclone formation is not dependent only on those three criteria. I found this after a short search:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Atlantic_tropical_cyclone

Food for thought.

Specifics aside about whether he makes good points or not I'm not sure what he is getting at.Is there a dispute about where hurricanes start and the tracks they make? Doesn't this map show generally what hurricanes do? Why are we arguing about hurricane criteria? These points are irrelevant.

Specifics aside about whether he makes good points or not I'm not sure what he is getting at.Is there a dispute about where hurricanes start and the tracks they make? Doesn't this map show generally what hurricanes do? Why are we arguing about hurricane criteria? These points are irrelevant.

Sorry for feeding him. I thought if I pointed out there was more to it than his reductionist posting that he might go away. I hope someone attempts to address your post soon.

So, why no hurricanes in Brazil?

Wind shear.
http://www.wunderground.com/education/shear.asp

In his classic 1968 paper, "Global View of the Origin of Tropical Disturbances and Storms", Dr. Gray writes:

    "In the SW Atlantic and central Pacific, where tropical storms do not occur, the observed climatological tropospheric wind shear is large (i.e., 20-40 kt). This is believed to be the major inhibitor to development in these areas. Large vertical wind shears do not allow for area concentration of the tropospheric distributed cumulonimbus condensation. Large shears produce a large ventilation of heat away from the developing disturbance. The condensation heat released by the cumulus to the upper troposphere is adverted in a different direction relative to the released heat at lower levels. Concentration of heat through the entire troposphere becomes more difficult.

Ævan

If your well educated in climatology you should know that you can't use that to say your an expert in Meteorology which is the actual field that relates to the study of hurricanes.

Assuming you know something about the weather can you explain how any atmospheric circulation is possible on a flat earth experiencing universal acceleration??

As has been pointed out hurricanes are low pressure areas that are moving through the atmosphere.

An upward accelerating earth would cause a pressure wave, effectively pinning all air to it in continuous high pressure.

The fact the atmosphere circulates at all is strong evidence to disprove universal acceleration.

Ævan

If your well educated in climatology you should know that you can't use that to say your an expert in Meteorology which is the actual field that relates to the study of hurricanes.

I have studied Meteorology (climatology being a sub-section that I excelled in). I actually got 97% in my commercial pilot exam in Meteorology. I also studied it at college. I was very good at it.

Assuming you know something about the weather can you explain how any atmospheric circulation is possible on a flat earth experiencing universal acceleration??

Are you suggesting you need Coriolis to have weather? This is silly. Weather is generated by moisture in the atmosphere, heat and pressure changes. None of which need a whirling spinning ball.

As has been pointed out hurricanes are low pressure areas that are moving through the atmosphere.

An upward accelerating earth would cause a pressure wave, effectively pinning all air to it in continuous high pressure.

Please study Einstein's equivalence principle. An acceleration upwards would no more create high pressure than gravity would by pulling air down. You are making wild and unsupported claims and destroying the credibility of your argument.

The fact the atmosphere circulates at all is strong evidence to disprove universal acceleration.

No. the atmosphere circulates because we have a diurnal cycle and some bits are hotter than other bits. I haven't needed any of my meteorology education up to this point because you are struggling with the basic principles of how weather systems work.

Well it appears this has been completely derailed. Zero attempts at explaining why hurricanes produce these tracks on a flat earth. Just some guy trying to talk about what causes hurricanes for some reason.

Well it appears this has been completely derailed. Zero attempts at explaining why hurricanes produce these tracks on a flat earth. Just some guy trying to talk about what causes hurricanes for some reason.

Thork does that. He derailed a question about the differences in constellations in the two hemispheres by complaining about the naming convention for the constellations.  It's pretty poor behavior.

Well it appears this has been completely derailed. Zero attempts at explaining why hurricanes produce these tracks on a flat earth. Just some guy trying to talk about what causes hurricanes for some reason.

Hurricanes follow the trade winds. Did you mean to make a thread about trade winds on a flat earth?

Your clumsy attempt to 'prove Coriolis' missed the mark because you didn't know enough about the example you picked.

Quote from: rottingroom on August 29, 2013, 03:06:28 PM

Well it appears this has been completely derailed. Zero attempts at explaining why hurricanes produce these tracks on a flat earth. Just some guy trying to talk about what causes hurricanes for some reason.

Hurricanes follow the trade winds. Did you mean to make a thread about trade winds on a flat earth?

Your clumsy attempt to 'prove Coriolis' missed the mark because you didn't know enough about the example you picked.

Which begs the question: Why do the trade winds follow the course they do?  Here's a hint: It's the same cause.

Quote from: Ævan on August 29, 2013, 03:19:47 PM

Quote from: rottingroom on August 29, 2013, 03:06:28 PM

Well it appears this has been completely derailed. Zero attempts at explaining why hurricanes produce these tracks on a flat earth. Just some guy trying to talk about what causes hurricanes for some reason.

Hurricanes follow the trade winds. Did you mean to make a thread about trade winds on a flat earth?

Your clumsy attempt to 'prove Coriolis' missed the mark because you didn't know enough about the example you picked.

Which begs the question: Why do the trade winds follow the course they do?  Here's a hint: It's the same cause.

Make a new thread. This one is about hurricanes.

Quote from: Rama Set on August 29, 2013, 03:24:27 PM

Quote from: Ævan on August 29, 2013, 03:19:47 PM

Quote from: rottingroom on August 29, 2013, 03:06:28 PM

Well it appears this has been completely derailed. Zero attempts at explaining why hurricanes produce these tracks on a flat earth. Just some guy trying to talk about what causes hurricanes for some reason.

Hurricanes follow the trade winds. Did you mean to make a thread about trade winds on a flat earth?

Your clumsy attempt to 'prove Coriolis' missed the mark because you didn't know enough about the example you picked.

Which begs the question: Why do the trade winds follow the course they do?  Here's a hint: It's the same cause.

Make a new thread. This one is about hurricanes.

Congratulations on lawyering your way out of a meaningful reply.

Quote from: rottingroom on August 29, 2013, 03:06:28 PM

Well it appears this has been completely derailed. Zero attempts at explaining why hurricanes produce these tracks on a flat earth. Just some guy trying to talk about what causes hurricanes for some reason.

Hurricanes follow the trade winds. Did you mean to make a thread about trade winds on a flat earth?

Your clumsy attempt to 'prove Coriolis' missed the mark because you didn't know enough about the example you picked.

Are you going to keep dodging everything that comes your way? I did not set out to prove Coriolis. The picture in the op shows the basic tracks of hurricanes. This is a depiction of recorded data. You don't have to believe in Coriolis to accept that these tracks are real. Can you just leave the thread, you are not contributing a thing okay Mr. I got a 97% in school and nobody gives a shit.

Quote from: Rama Set on August 29, 2013, 03:24:27 PM

Quote from: Ævan on August 29, 2013, 03:19:47 PM

Quote from: rottingroom on August 29, 2013, 03:06:28 PM

Well it appears this has been completely derailed. Zero attempts at explaining why hurricanes produce these tracks on a flat earth. Just some guy trying to talk about what causes hurricanes for some reason.

Hurricanes follow the trade winds. Did you mean to make a thread about trade winds on a flat earth?

Your clumsy attempt to 'prove Coriolis' missed the mark because you didn't know enough about the example you picked.

Which begs the question: Why do the trade winds follow the course they do?  Here's a hint: It's the same cause.

Make a new thread. This one is about hurricanes.

No this thread is not about hurricanes. It is about hurricane tracks. You have devolved this thread into being about hurricanes and gotten everyone to talk about hurricane criteria which for maybe 5th time, is irrelevant to the thread. You say hurricanes follow trade winds... That's relevant! So his question was completely on topic unlike all of your contentions.

Well it appears this has been completely derailed. Zero attempts at explaining why hurricanes produce these tracks on a flat earth. Just some guy trying to talk about what causes hurricanes for some reason.

I did try to offer explanations.  Take your fingers out of your ears and at least acknowledge that you got answers, even if you do not like the answers you got.

Recap, and attempt to pull the thread back on-topic:

rottingroom: Can a flat earther explain these tracks of hurricanes? This artist mock-up shows 170 hurricane tracks. Why would they behave this way on a flat earth?

jroa: It probably has to do with the air and sea currents near the equator.  The Moon and Sun may play a role in the way that hurricanes move as well.