Hurricane tracks

I am not trying to derail this thread, but since it is dead anyway, I want to ask our RE brothers to try a thought exercise.  Imagine that you are an FE'er and give your best explanation for the OP.  This is just an exercise in free thought.

Recap, and attempt to pull the thread back on-topic:

rottingroom: Can a flat earther explain these tracks of hurricanes? This artist mock-up shows 170 hurricane tracks. Why would they behave this way on a flat earth?

jroa: It probably has to do with the air and sea currents near the equator.  The Moon and Sun may play a role in the way that hurricanes move as well.

Right yes and I responded to that. That is when I brought up the coriolis. Jroa brought air and sea currents so I brought up what causes (or at least plays a major part) in those. So I appreciate that jroa did attempt to add something. It wasn't that I didn't like his answer, it just didn't say much. Hurricane tracks caused by winds and seas? Well like you said, it begs the question, "what causes those?"

I am not trying to derail this thread, but since it is dead anyway, I want to ask our RE brothers to try a thought exercise.  Imagine that you are an FE'er and give your best explanation for the OP.  This is just an exercise in free thought.

Well to be honest that's what makes it a good topic in favor of round earthers. Cause on a flat earth it makes no sense. Its pretty darn good proof that something like the coriolis is happening and that the earth is spinning. So if I was a flat earther I would probably just say, "what the hell was I thinking? A flat earth.... Really?"

Quote from: jroa on August 29, 2013, 04:54:25 PM

I am not trying to derail this thread, but since it is dead anyway, I want to ask our RE brothers to try a thought exercise.  Imagine that you are an FE'er and give your best explanation for the OP.  This is just an exercise in free thought.

Well to be honest that's what makes it a good topic in favor of round earthers. Cause on a flat earth it makes no sense. Its pretty darn good proof that something like the coriolis is happening and that the earth is spinning. So if I was a flat earther I would probably just say, "what the hell was I thinking? A flat earth.... Really?"

That is the best you can come up with?  You seem to be too lazy to try to come up with an original idea.  Seriously, please give it a try.

I am not trying to derail this thread, but since it is dead anyway, I want to ask our RE brothers to try a thought exercise.  Imagine that you are an FE'er and give your best explanation for the OP.  This is just an exercise in free thought.

I would probably just make something up involving aether or whatever.

Quote from: jroa on August 29, 2013, 04:54:25 PM

I am not trying to derail this thread, but since it is dead anyway, I want to ask our RE brothers to try a thought exercise.  Imagine that you are an FE'er and give your best explanation for the OP.  This is just an exercise in free thought.

I would probably just make something up involving aether or whatever.

That is very interesting.  Please elaborate on this theory. 

Well does it make sense? The flat earth models with Antarctica as the ice wall give the equator no significance. There is nothing special about it at all. So how would you explain currents and winds going in opposite directions at that exact point? You would have to come up with something silly like UA or moonshrimp or bendy light or a spotlight sun or an ice dome. Its just nonsense and I really think that you know it.

Well does it make sense? The flat earth models with Antarctica as the ice wall give the equator no significance. There is nothing special about it at all. So how would you explain currents and winds going in opposite directions at that exact point? You would have to come up with something silly like UA or moonshrimp or bendy light or a spotlight sun or an ice dome. Its just nonsense and I really think that you know it.

I said I was proposing a thought experiment.  I just want to see what kind of answers RE'ers can come up with.  They don't have to 100% accurate.  Just, for one post, put yourself inside a FE mind and come up with something new.

Quote from: rottingroom on August 29, 2013, 04:59:05 PM

Quote from: jroa on August 29, 2013, 04:54:25 PM

I am not trying to derail this thread, but since it is dead anyway, I want to ask our RE brothers to try a thought exercise.  Imagine that you are an FE'er and give your best explanation for the OP.  This is just an exercise in free thought.

Well to be honest that's what makes it a good topic in favor of round earthers. Cause on a flat earth it makes no sense. Its pretty darn good proof that something like the coriolis is happening and that the earth is spinning. So if I was a flat earther I would probably just say, "what the hell was I thinking? A flat earth.... Really?"

That is the best you can come up with?  You seem to be too lazy to try to come up with an original idea.  Seriously, please give it a try.

Okay, I'll try to be as zetetic as possible.

I see that hurricanes tend to travel westward until they turn away from the equator. Then they invariably head eastward. This matches the general wind patterns, which makes a lot of sense (a storm driven by wind? Who knew?!)

It begs the question of wind patterns, though. It seems as winds travel away from the equator they head east, and if they're moving away form the poles they head west. Now, air tends to flow from high-pressure to low-pressure, meaning the winds should be traveling from the poles (cold = higher pressure) to the equator (hot = lower pressure), which we see they do. But then the air warms and goes back up and probably heads back to the poles.

But this doesn't explain why they go west coming form the poles and east going to them.

But looking at these wind current maps, it's almost as if there's some kind of inertia happening. Like, maybe the poles are moving westward, and as the wind travels south it keeps this westward velocity, dragging it west. And the air from the equator, heading north, is lagging behind the poles, so it heads east.

No, but the poles are stationary. We know that because the stars don't move very much in those areas. What if it's the other way around--the equator's moving east. The hot air moving north from the equator overshoots the poles and is directed east, and air coming from the poles lags behind, heading west.

But on a flat Earth, that would mean air going south from the equator would also be directed west, as lands south of the equator are moving even faster. It almost looks like the south pole is also stationary, as the fast equatorial winds are carried ahead of the land.

But what shape can have two stationary places with a belt that moves relatively quickly? It's almost as if this happens on a rotating sphere!

Okay I got it. Maybe the equator on a flat earth is like a drain. The earth swallows the oceans up and then it gets drained out the bottom of the earth. Then the water turns to ice and joins the ice dome. The icy dome on top releases water back onto the earth in the form of precipitation and the water it precipitates is replaced by drained water from the ocean. Is that nonsensical enough for you?

Firstly on topic:

The reason these tracks are so long is because they seem to track the whole system from start to finish. This means beyond their classification as a hurricane which it may only be for a small part of its entire life span.  See below and note where the warnings are. The system continues well inland and probably beyond the track shown, but its then only a low pressure system.

http://www.stormtracker.noaa.gov/stormtracker-frances-demo.htm



Secondly:

Quote from: danger2007 on August 29, 2013, 11:36:09 AM

Ævan

If your well educated in climatology you should know that you can't use that to say your an expert in Meteorology which is the actual field that relates to the study of hurricanes.

I have studied Meteorology (climatology being a sub-section that I excelled in). I actually got 97% in my commercial pilot exam in Meteorology. I also studied it at college. I was very good at it.

Quote from: danger2007 on August 29, 2013, 11:36:09 AM

Assuming you know something about the weather can you explain how any atmospheric circulation is possible on a flat earth experiencing universal acceleration??

Are you suggesting you need Coriolis to have weather? This is silly. Weather is generated by moisture in the atmosphere, heat and pressure changes. None of which need a whirling spinning ball.

Quote from: danger2007 on August 29, 2013, 11:36:09 AM

As has been pointed out hurricanes are low pressure areas that are moving through the atmosphere.

An upward accelerating earth would cause a pressure wave, effectively pinning all air to it in continuous high pressure.

Please study Einstein's equivalence principle. An acceleration upwards would no more create high pressure than gravity would by pulling air down. You are making wild and unsupported claims and destroying the credibility of your argument.

Quote from: danger2007 on August 29, 2013, 11:36:09 AM

The fact the atmosphere circulates at all is strong evidence to disprove universal acceleration.

No. the atmosphere circulates because we have a diurnal cycle and some bits are hotter than other bits. I haven't needed any of my meteorology education up to this point because you are struggling with the basic principles of how weather systems work.

IF you're a commercial airline pilot can you provide some answers to this thread please your the perfect person to answer.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,59549.0.html#.UiDzTDbvvO1

For a start climatology is not a subsection of meteorology they are both separate areas of atmospheric study and whilst related, climatology is not a subsection. This is silly of you to suggest. Let me define climatology:

cli·ma·tol·o·gy  [klahy-muh-tol-uh-jee]  Show IPA
noun
the science that deals with the phenomena of climates or climatic conditions.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/climatology

Weather, eg Meteorology relates and has an input into climate but is not all of it. Climate is the long term average of weather for an area. It does not require an in depth knowledge of hurricane formation.

Coriolis is what causes the weather to rotate. e.g. Low pressure systems, hurricanes and tornadoes to names a few. Rising heat and moisture are what drive them but they alone are not responsible for the spinning. We are talking about rotation and direction in this thread please read slowly and think.

As for Einstein here's a quote "The naïve picture of the earth as a flat disc, combined with obscure ideas about star-filled space and the motions of the celestial bodies, prevalent in the early Middle Ages, represented a deterioration of the much earlier conceptions of the Greeks, and in particular of Aristotle’s ideas and Ptolemy’s consistent spatial concept of the celestial bodies and their motions."

He is your worst enemy as far as your concerned, don't try to use he theories to support you ideas , same goes for Galileo.  Besides you contradict yourself, equivalence means that the air would create an equal force back all the time, which is why we make things aerodynamic. Gravity relates to mass which is why the air does not need to push back with a force.

This is not the thread to argue about gravity.   

Firstly on topic:

The reason these tracks are so long is because they seem to track the whole system from start to finish. This means beyond their classification as a hurricane which it may only be for a small part of its entire life span.  See below and note where the warnings are. The system continues well inland and probably beyond the track shown, but its then only a low pressure system.

Yes this is what I suggested when I mentioned that it is the remnants of a hurricane. Your explanation was easier to understand for the FEers and I thank you for that.

Quote from: danger2007 on August 30, 2013, 01:08:58 PM

Firstly on topic:

The reason these tracks are so long is because they seem to track the whole system from start to finish. This means beyond their classification as a hurricane which it may only be for a small part of its entire life span.  See below and note where the warnings are. The system continues well inland and probably beyond the track shown, but its then only a low pressure system.

Yes this is what I suggested when I mentioned that it is the remnants of a hurricane. Your explanation was easier to understand for the FEers and I thank you for that.

Flat Earth science can not explain hurricane tracks.

Quote from: rottingroom on August 30, 2013, 03:05:08 PM

Quote from: danger2007 on August 30, 2013, 01:08:58 PM

Firstly on topic:

The reason these tracks are so long is because they seem to track the whole system from start to finish. This means beyond their classification as a hurricane which it may only be for a small part of its entire life span.  See below and note where the warnings are. The system continues well inland and probably beyond the track shown, but its then only a low pressure system.

Yes this is what I suggested when I mentioned that it is the remnants of a hurricane. Your explanation was easier to understand for the FEers and I thank you for that.

Flat Earth science can not explain hurricane tracks.

Nope, there is no good explanation. Hence, why hardly any FEers took on this thread and why the ones who did attempt it did everything they could to derail it.

You know what, I'm an REer, so challenge accepted.

The charged atmospheric ions in the hurricane could possibly be attracted toward the magnetic north pole, and only hurricanes last long enough to be affected by earth's EMF because at lower altitudes it isn't quite as strong as say in the upper levels of the atmosphere.

If this sounds like bunk forgive me.  I know little of charged particles within storms, but then again, I'm trying to argue a claim for the side I don't agree with, so it's probably not the strongest argument.

Edit-The charge could possibly strengthen with the storm, causing the sharp turn around, coincidently, just as it hits the American lands.

You know what, I'm an REer, so challenge accepted.

The charged atmospheric ions in the hurricane could possibly be attracted toward the magnetic north pole, and only hurricanes last long enough to be affected by earth's EMF because at lower altitudes it isn't quite as strong as say in the upper levels of the atmosphere.

If this sounds like bunk forgive me.  I know little of charged particles within storms, but then again, I'm trying to argue a claim for the side I don't agree with, so it's probably not the strongest argument.

Edit-The charge could possibly strengthen with the storm, causing the sharp turn around, coincidentally, just as it hits the American lands.

I'm sorry to throw a spanner in your works but the actual position of the magnetic north pole is mobile.

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/GeomagneticPoles.shtml

But most importantly its not actually at the geographic north pole, which seems to be FE popular center of the earth. Under that theory the hurricanes / low pressure systems would go straight to Canada and stay there. In reality they do not and actually travel away from magnetic north at some points. Southern hemisphere cyclones turn away from magnetic north also.

Ah, You're right.  I thought magnetic north lies toward Greenland which nails the coffin in this theory.  But corealis can't explain the northern path either.  Corealis causes eastern drift on north or south moving objects,  so to say it's causing an eastern moving body to drift north is wrong.  Maybe it's just a combination of air pressure, climatic winds, and sea currents.  Again, I'm no meteorologist.

Ah, You're right.  I thought magnetic north lies toward Greenland which nails the coffin in this theory.  But corealis can't explain the northern path either.  Corealis causes eastern drift on north or south moving objects,  so to say it's causing an eastern moving body to drift north is wrong.  Maybe it's just a combination of air pressure, climatic winds, and sea currents.  Again, I'm no meteorologist.

Those are things affected by the coriolis too.

Oh yeah.  So hurricanes are indirectly affected by corealis?
At this point I'm not even thinking flat vs. round.  I wanna know how those storms change direction so suddenly.

Oh yeah.  So hurricanes are indirectly affected by corealis?
At this point I'm not even thinking flat vs. round.  I wanna know how those storms change direction so suddenly.

I'd always heard they just follow low-pressure corridors. That's why we can (kinda) predict where they're going to go. Maybe something about a coastal area creates low-pressure areas, and so when the hurricane falls into one it will continue following it, like a car in a rut.

Oh yeah.  So hurricanes are indirectly affected by corealis?
At this point I'm not even thinking flat vs. round.  I wanna know how those storms change direction so suddenly.

The hurricane is generated in warm waters near the equator (but not within 5°). In the northern hemisphere they initially start heading west because that is the direction of currents near the equator. The whole ocean current system itself is constantly effected by the coriolis and is basically in a constant predictable pattern along with the winds as well so this (and of course land masses changing the direction of currents) is what drives it away from the equator along with the high pressure systems associated with this warm weather as well. Once it gets far enough from the equator coriolis then pushes it eastward. This also explains the typically anti cyclonic (or clockwise) rotation of a hurricane in the northern hemisphere.

Imagine it like this. Say you and a friend are on opposite sides of a merry go round going clockwise and throwing a ball at each other. The ball is like the hurricane. As you and this other person toss the ball toward each other the ball stays with you as you are holding it but each time you toss it it gets deflected to the right. So you can imagine and expect that to catch the ball you would have to move your arms to the left as the ball is coming toward you.

To add... In the southern hemisphere objects get deflected to the left. Using the merry go round example, imagine the same scenario but you and your friend are upside tossing the ball. Now you can see why the ball gets deflected to the left. This is pretty hard evidence of a spherical earth.

Imagine it like this. Say you and a friend are on opposite sides of a merry go round going clockwise and throwing a ball at each other. The ball is like the hurricane. As you and this other person toss the ball toward each other the ball stays with you as you are holding it but each time you toss it it gets deflected to the right. So you can imagine and expect that to catch the ball you would have to move your arms to the left as the ball is coming toward you.

What does this have to do with anything?  All this proves is that the person didn't throw the ball fast enough to reach the other person spinning. 

The hurricane is generated in warm waters near the equator (but not within 5°). In the northern hemisphere they initially start heading west because that is the direction of currents near the equator. The whole ocean current system itself is constantly effected by the coriolis and is basically in a constant predictable pattern along with the winds as well so this (and of course land masses changing the direction of currents) is what drives it away from the equator along with the high pressure systems associated with this warm weather as well. Once it gets far enough from the equator coriolis then pushes it eastward. This also explains the typically anti cyclonic (or clockwise) rotation of a hurricane in the northern hemisphere.

They spin counter-clockwise in the Northern hemi.

Quote from: rottingroom on August 30, 2013, 07:35:43 PM

Imagine it like this. Say you and a friend are on opposite sides of a merry go round going clockwise and throwing a ball at each other. The ball is like the hurricane. As you and this other person toss the ball toward each other the ball stays with you as you are holding it but each time you toss it it gets deflected to the right. So you can imagine and expect that to catch the ball you would have to move your arms to the left as the ball is coming toward you.

What does this have to do with anything?  All this proves is that the person didn't throw the ball fast enough to reach the other person spinning. 

You don't get it?

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I want to know on a round earth, why hurricanes do not occur in the Southern Atlantic. Something about your map/theory is wrong.

For the same reason they don't occur on the flat map.  They may not occur close to the Equator but they do form where the cooler water meets the warmer water.  And the water near South Africa and Brazil is too cool to form one.

You don't get it?
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No, I do get it.  But I think this is a bad example.  Are you using this example to show the merry-go-round is the Earth or the hurricane?

Quote from: rottingroom on September 23, 2013, 08:14:25 AM

You don't get it?
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No, I do get it.  But I think this is a bad example.  Are you using this example to show the merry-go-round is the Earth or the hurricane?

The merry go round is like the earth. It's a perfectly good example. It shows what happens when an object (the ball) is sent at a velocity perpendicular to the velocity of the rotating object (merry go round). The ball deflects in the same direction as the rotation. Whether you are in the northern or southern hemisphere hurricanes deflect in the same direction as rotation. In the north they deflect right and in the south, to the left. Since (in both the north and south) hurricanes move away from the equator, deflecting right in the north and left in the south is toward the east which is with rotation. Not only do they deflect in this manner but the spins being cyclonic or anti-cyclonic are appropriate as well.

On RE, the Coriolis effect only explains how a hurricane swirls but I don't think it explains where it is heading. On FE, the Coriolis effect is absent therefore theoretically hurricane cannot even build up (just like the areas near the equator on RE).

In my opinion, on RE the Coriolis effect only explains how a hurricane swirl but I don't think it explains where it is heading. In FE, the Coriolis effect is absent therefore theoretically hurricane cannot even build up.

How does it not explain it? They start near the equator since that is where the correct conditions for cyclone development are. Initially their direction is caused by currents and trade winds which coincidentally are mostly cause by rotation as well. Six belt-like Hadley Cells circulate air from pole to pole and establish patterns of climate over the planet. The cells are characterized by specific patterns of wind flow, a function of the Coriolis force generated by the spin of the Earth. In the temperate zone between the 30° and 60° latitudes, the prevailing westerlies dominate air circulation. In the tropics, the easterly trade winds dominate. Winds around the poles are also easterly.