Sceptimatics theory

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 20, 2013, 08:52:40 AM

No molecules are put in a perfect vacuum. They end at the vacuum by becoming ice/glass against the vacuum because they are fully expanded and become frozen.They do not move in the vacuum, they basically stop moving and become absolute zero against that vacuum, which is nothing.

First of all, how does something (gasses) freeze up against nothing (vacuum)?

Secondly, I was always under the impression that as gasses cool down they get more dense (condense), not less (expand).

Have you never seen gases start to freeze when put under a near vacuum environment?
Have you ever seen a helium balloon expand the higher it goes?

Quote from: hewholikespie

So you agree that a perfect vacuum could exist on earth, surrounded by Ice/ Glass. Thank you.

What part about what I said, can't you grasp?

None of it. It's the necessary corollaries of what you say that you are failing to grasp, Scepti.

Quote from: hewholikespie

On what math and physical principle do you base this statement? A SCUBA Tank does not rupture when placed into a vacuum/ near vacuum, why would it collapse if the pressure differential was on the inside? Same thing applies to Submarines, vacuum tubes, and thermoses.

A scuba tank has and never will be placed into a perfect vacuum, or anything else for that matter.

Except A: All of Earth does, in your scenario, and

B: I said near vacuum as well. Also, given you say that 'vacuum' does not suck, why would you expect something with vacuum inside it to be crushed if air pressure alone cannot do the job?

Also, what's so hard to grasp about an airtight chamber half filled with air and water with a vacuum hose that has a watertight seal?

The big problem is that low pressure causes expansion while high pressure causes condensation (not water droplets but a condensing of matter).  Condensed matter is a solid while expanded matter is a gas,  in simplified terms.  Of course the state of matter is also determined by its temperature, so it's really the temperature that seems to cause the gases to solidify, though how they instantly freeze from a gaseous state is beyond me.  One would expect a very cold hydrogen rain before any hopes of every getting a naturally forming hydrogen ice dome.

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 20, 2013, 10:45:48 AM

Quote from: hewholikespie

So you agree that a perfect vacuum could exist on earth, surrounded by Ice/ Glass. Thank you.

What part about what I said, can't you grasp?

None of it. It's the necessary corollaries of what you say that you are failing to grasp, Scepti.

Quote

Quote from: hewholikespie

On what math and physical principle do you base this statement? A SCUBA Tank does not rupture when placed into a vacuum/ near vacuum, why would it collapse if the pressure differential was on the inside? Same thing applies to Submarines, vacuum tubes, and thermoses.

A scuba tank has and never will be placed into a perfect vacuum, or anything else for that matter.

Except A: All of Earth does, in your scenario, and

B: I said near vacuum as well. Also, given you say that 'vacuum' does not suck, why would you expect something with vacuum inside it to be crushed if air pressure alone cannot do the job?

Also, what's so hard to grasp about an airtight chamber half filled with air and water with a vacuum hose that has a watertight seal?

I don't know whether you can't grasp or are refusing to grasp what I'm saying.

The big problem is that low pressure causes expansion while high pressure causes condensation (not water droplets but a condensing of matter).  Condensed matter is a solid while expanded matter is a gas,  in simplified terms.  Of course the state of matter is also determined by its temperature, so it's really the temperature that seems to cause the gases to solidify, though how they instantly freeze from a gaseous state is beyond me.  One would expect a very cold hydrogen rain before any hopes of every getting a naturally forming hydrogen ice dome.

The lightest elements freeze because they are at the very top, the lightest and last element from the densely packed ones at the bottom of earth.
Just as diamond becomes a crystal by super pressure, the opposite happens at the top against zero pressure, with the very lightest element also having zero pressure. It is in it's completely fully expanded state.
Everything else under it, is under pressure in various strengths, all the way to the bottom. Pile on pile on pile.

Quote from: DuckDodgers on August 20, 2013, 11:00:42 AM

The big problem is that low pressure causes expansion while high pressure causes condensation (not water droplets but a condensing of matter).  Condensed matter is a solid while expanded matter is a gas,  in simplified terms.  Of course the state of matter is also determined by its temperature, so it's really the temperature that seems to cause the gases to solidify, though how they instantly freeze from a gaseous state is beyond me.  One would expect a very cold hydrogen rain before any hopes of every getting a naturally forming hydrogen ice dome.

The lightest elements freeze because they are at the very top, the lightest and last element from the densely packed ones at the bottom of earth.
Just as diamond becomes a crystal by super pressure, the opposite happens at the top against zero pressure, with the very lightest element also having zero pressure. It is in it's completely fully expanded state.
Everything else under it, is under pressure in various strengths, all the way to the bottom. Pile on pile on pile.

Can you answer why it wouldn't liquify first and fall through the gaseous form of the element?  Why does it instead flash freeze?  A lot of gases liquify long before becoming solid.

Quote from: Fizzy Logic on August 20, 2013, 07:05:33 AM

That's very lame ( and very lazy from you). Why don't yoy do some reading about the experiments performed in order to measure the speed of light?

That's very lame of you, asking me to read up from mainstream books that I do not trust. We are just organisms living with many others in this cell of earth. Our eyes enable us to do the basics of viewing our environment.
The brain of man, has become ultra arrogant and took on a fantasy story telling stance to gain the upper hand against those of us who chose to sit and listen. Those story telling speeches have been put into print, so, no..I don't think I'll be looking it up.

You don't want to read books about science!?

You perfer to rely solely on your biased senses?

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 20, 2013, 11:12:30 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on August 20, 2013, 11:00:42 AM

The big problem is that low pressure causes expansion while high pressure causes condensation (not water droplets but a condensing of matter).  Condensed matter is a solid while expanded matter is a gas,  in simplified terms.  Of course the state of matter is also determined by its temperature, so it's really the temperature that seems to cause the gases to solidify, though how they instantly freeze from a gaseous state is beyond me.  One would expect a very cold hydrogen rain before any hopes of every getting a naturally forming hydrogen ice dome.

The lightest elements freeze because they are at the very top, the lightest and last element from the densely packed ones at the bottom of earth.
Just as diamond becomes a crystal by super pressure, the opposite happens at the top against zero pressure, with the very lightest element also having zero pressure. It is in it's completely fully expanded state.
Everything else under it, is under pressure in various strengths, all the way to the bottom. Pile on pile on pile.

Can you answer why it wouldn't liquify first and fall through the gaseous form of the element?  Why does it instead flash freeze?  A lot of gases liquify long before becoming solid.

Under huge pressure Hydrogen turns to liquid so it's hardly going to be liquid up in the sky, is it?

Quote from: DuckDodgers on August 20, 2013, 11:30:44 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 20, 2013, 11:12:30 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on August 20, 2013, 11:00:42 AM

The big problem is that low pressure causes expansion while high pressure causes condensation (not water droplets but a condensing of matter).  Condensed matter is a solid while expanded matter is a gas,  in simplified terms.  Of course the state of matter is also determined by its temperature, so it's really the temperature that seems to cause the gases to solidify, though how they instantly freeze from a gaseous state is beyond me.  One would expect a very cold hydrogen rain before any hopes of every getting a naturally forming hydrogen ice dome.

The lightest elements freeze because they are at the very top, the lightest and last element from the densely packed ones at the bottom of earth.
Just as diamond becomes a crystal by super pressure, the opposite happens at the top against zero pressure, with the very lightest element also having zero pressure. It is in it's completely fully expanded state.
Everything else under it, is under pressure in various strengths, all the way to the bottom. Pile on pile on pile.

Can you answer why it wouldn't liquify first and fall through the gaseous form of the element?  Why does it instead flash freeze?  A lot of gases liquify long before becoming solid.

Under huge pressure Hydrogen turns to liquid so it's hardly going to be liquid up in the sky, is it?

And under very low temperatures? What do you think (since you don't read)?

Quote from: DuckDodgers on August 20, 2013, 11:30:44 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 20, 2013, 11:12:30 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on August 20, 2013, 11:00:42 AM

The big problem is that low pressure causes expansion while high pressure causes condensation (not water droplets but a condensing of matter).  Condensed matter is a solid while expanded matter is a gas,  in simplified terms.  Of course the state of matter is also determined by its temperature, so it's really the temperature that seems to cause the gases to solidify, though how they instantly freeze from a gaseous state is beyond me.  One would expect a very cold hydrogen rain before any hopes of every getting a naturally forming hydrogen ice dome.

The lightest elements freeze because they are at the very top, the lightest and last element from the densely packed ones at the bottom of earth.
Just as diamond becomes a crystal by super pressure, the opposite happens at the top against zero pressure, with the very lightest element also having zero pressure. It is in it's completely fully expanded state.
Everything else under it, is under pressure in various strengths, all the way to the bottom. Pile on pile on pile.

Can you answer why it wouldn't liquify first and fall through the gaseous form of the element?  Why does it instead flash freeze?  A lot of gases liquify long before becoming solid.

Under huge pressure Hydrogen turns to liquid so it's hardly going to be liquid up in the sky, is it?

Then how can it be solid if it can't be a liquid in the sky?  Temperature turns matter from solid to liquid to gas and back as well.  The cooler matter gets, the more dense it becomes and will eventually make the progression from gas to liquid to solid. So I ask you again how it can flash freeze instead of making the typical progression?

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 20, 2013, 11:44:42 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on August 20, 2013, 11:30:44 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 20, 2013, 11:12:30 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on August 20, 2013, 11:00:42 AM

The big problem is that low pressure causes expansion while high pressure causes condensation (not water droplets but a condensing of matter).  Condensed matter is a solid while expanded matter is a gas,  in simplified terms.  Of course the state of matter is also determined by its temperature, so it's really the temperature that seems to cause the gases to solidify, though how they instantly freeze from a gaseous state is beyond me.  One would expect a very cold hydrogen rain before any hopes of every getting a naturally forming hydrogen ice dome.

The lightest elements freeze because they are at the very top, the lightest and last element from the densely packed ones at the bottom of earth.
Just as diamond becomes a crystal by super pressure, the opposite happens at the top against zero pressure, with the very lightest element also having zero pressure. It is in it's completely fully expanded state.
Everything else under it, is under pressure in various strengths, all the way to the bottom. Pile on pile on pile.

Can you answer why it wouldn't liquify first and fall through the gaseous form of the element?  Why does it instead flash freeze?  A lot of gases liquify long before becoming solid.

Under huge pressure Hydrogen turns to liquid so it's hardly going to be liquid up in the sky, is it?

And under very low temperatures? What do you think (since you don't read)?

Temperature plays it's part too. Like water vapour as clouds and such. Under pressure and the lack of temperature renders it to be ice and the density of that ice is determined by how much heat hits it or lack of.
The ice at the dome does melt when the reflected heat, we call the sun, hits that part and it turns slowly back to gas and drops, like an icicle and then falls off at certain times, which we see as meteors as it falls into the atmosphere of the other light gaseous elements, only to be turned back to gas again through the friction of the fall, which in turn, sends it back to the dome.

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 20, 2013, 07:21:28 AM

Quote from: Fizzy Logic on August 20, 2013, 07:05:33 AM

That's very lame ( and very lazy from you). Why don't yoy do some reading about the experiments performed in order to measure the speed of light?

That's very lame of you, asking me to read up from mainstream books that I do not trust. We are just organisms living with many others in this cell of earth. Our eyes enable us to do the basics of viewing our environment.
The brain of man, has become ultra arrogant and took on a fantasy story telling stance to gain the upper hand against those of us who chose to sit and listen. Those story telling speeches have been put into print, so, no..I don't think I'll be looking it up.

You don't want to read books about science!?

You perfer to rely solely on your biased senses?

Reading books on provable earthly science is fine. Reading books on stars and planets in space is no better than reading flash Gordon comics and the likes. It looks good but that's all it is...a good fantasy.

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 20, 2013, 11:44:42 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on August 20, 2013, 11:30:44 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 20, 2013, 11:12:30 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on August 20, 2013, 11:00:42 AM

The big problem is that low pressure causes expansion while high pressure causes condensation (not water droplets but a condensing of matter).  Condensed matter is a solid while expanded matter is a gas,  in simplified terms.  Of course the state of matter is also determined by its temperature, so it's really the temperature that seems to cause the gases to solidify, though how they instantly freeze from a gaseous state is beyond me.  One would expect a very cold hydrogen rain before any hopes of every getting a naturally forming hydrogen ice dome.

The lightest elements freeze because they are at the very top, the lightest and last element from the densely packed ones at the bottom of earth.
Just as diamond becomes a crystal by super pressure, the opposite happens at the top against zero pressure, with the very lightest element also having zero pressure. It is in it's completely fully expanded state.
Everything else under it, is under pressure in various strengths, all the way to the bottom. Pile on pile on pile.

Can you answer why it wouldn't liquify first and fall through the gaseous form of the element?  Why does it instead flash freeze?  A lot of gases liquify long before becoming solid.

Under huge pressure Hydrogen turns to liquid so it's hardly going to be liquid up in the sky, is it?

Then how can it be solid if it can't be a liquid in the sky?  Temperature turns matter from solid to liquid to gas and back as well.  The cooler matter gets, the more dense it becomes and will eventually make the progression from gas to liquid to solid. So I ask you again how it can flash freeze instead of making the typical progression?

It's a progression from bottom to top and splitting elements on their way to the top into various gases. The liquids stay below earth not above.

Water is above the surface, so it on top.  But that is beside the point.

You still haven't answered how the gas flash freeze from gas to solid without becoming liquid first.

Water is above the surface, so it on top.  But that is beside the point.

You still haven't answered how the gas flash freeze from gas to solid without becoming liquid first.

Because it becomes zero pressure against absolute zero temperature against a vacuum of zero pressure.
Result: solid frozen dome of ice.

Quote from: DuckDodgers on August 20, 2013, 12:12:44 PM

Water is above the surface, so it on top.  But that is beside the point.

You still haven't answered how the gas flash freeze from gas to solid without becoming liquid first.

Because it becomes zero pressure against absolute zero temperature against a vacuum of zero pressure.
Result: solid frozen dome of ice.

Why wouldn't it become a liquid at a lower height where the pressure isn't zero and there is still each warmth to be above hydrogen's freezing point?

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 20, 2013, 12:15:14 PM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on August 20, 2013, 12:12:44 PM

Water is above the surface, so it on top.  But that is beside the point.

You still haven't answered how the gas flash freeze from gas to solid without becoming liquid first.

Because it becomes zero pressure against absolute zero temperature against a vacuum of zero pressure.
Result: solid frozen dome of ice.

Why wouldn't it become a liquid at a lower height where the pressure isn't zero and there is still each warmth to be above hydrogen's freezing point?

Hydrogen has to be put under pressure and under severe cold temperature conditions to become liquid.

Under huge pressure Hydrogen turns to liquid so it's hardly going to be liquid up in the sky, is it?

This liquid helium (which is even colder than liquid hydrogen) doesn't look like it's under very much pressure to me:
#ws" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Superfluid helium

Quote from: DuckDodgers on August 20, 2013, 12:19:41 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 20, 2013, 12:15:14 PM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on August 20, 2013, 12:12:44 PM

Water is above the surface, so it on top.  But that is beside the point.

You still haven't answered how the gas flash freeze from gas to solid without becoming liquid first.

Because it becomes zero pressure against absolute zero temperature against a vacuum of zero pressure.
Result: solid frozen dome of ice.

Why wouldn't it become a liquid at a lower height where the pressure isn't zero and there is still each warmth to be above hydrogen's freezing point?

Hydrogen has to be put under pressure and under severe cold temperature conditions to become liquid.

That's even more true for it to become solid.

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 20, 2013, 11:44:42 AM

Under huge pressure Hydrogen turns to liquid so it's hardly going to be liquid up in the sky, is it?

This liquid helium (which is even colder than liquid hydrogen) doesn't look like it's under very much pressure to me:
#ws" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Superfluid helium

It's a process it goes through using pressure at certain temperatures then at close to absolute zero which makes it turn to liquid.

I do stand corrected, helium becomes a liquid at the lowest temperature of all elements. So even though helium is heavier than hydrogen, it is the most likely to be what comprises the ice dome since it stays a gas the longest.  However there is still about 4 degrees difference in its melting and boiling points.  I'm still confused how it can skip becoming a liquid and then straight into a solid.

I do stand corrected, helium becomes a liquid at the lowest temperature of all elements. So even though helium is heavier than hydrogen, it is the most likely to be what comprises the ice dome since it stays a gas the longest.  However there is still about 4 degrees difference in its melting and boiling points.  I'm still confused how it can skip becoming a liquid and then straight into a solid.

Pressure differences.

Quote from: DuckDodgers on August 20, 2013, 12:43:03 PM

I do stand corrected, helium becomes a liquid at the lowest temperature of all elements. So even though helium is heavier than hydrogen, it is the most likely to be what comprises the ice dome since it stays a gas the longest.  However there is still about 4 degrees difference in its melting and boiling points.  I'm still confused how it can skip becoming a liquid and then straight into a solid.

Pressure differences.

That still doesn't explain the phase gap. A lower pressure would just make it turn liquid at a higher temperature.

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 20, 2013, 12:52:24 PM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on August 20, 2013, 12:43:03 PM

I do stand corrected, helium becomes a liquid at the lowest temperature of all elements. So even though helium is heavier than hydrogen, it is the most likely to be what comprises the ice dome since it stays a gas the longest.  However there is still about 4 degrees difference in its melting and boiling points.  I'm still confused how it can skip becoming a liquid and then straight into a solid.

Pressure differences.

That still doesn't explain the phase gap. A lower pressure would just make it turn liquid at a higher temperature.

Which it periodically will do, which creates the icicles as it goes into that state due to reflected heat hitting the dome and in time, those icicles get too heavy after melting and freezing, then fall off due to their weight, which we see as shooting stars or meteors or whatever else whizzes about in the sky.

Quote from: DuckDodgers on August 20, 2013, 12:54:21 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 20, 2013, 12:52:24 PM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on August 20, 2013, 12:43:03 PM

I do stand corrected, helium becomes a liquid at the lowest temperature of all elements. So even though helium is heavier than hydrogen, it is the most likely to be what comprises the ice dome since it stays a gas the longest.  However there is still about 4 degrees difference in its melting and boiling points.  I'm still confused how it can skip becoming a liquid and then straight into a solid.

Pressure differences.

That still doesn't explain the phase gap. A lower pressure would just make it turn liquid at a higher temperature.

Which it periodically will do, which creates the icicles as it goes into that state due to reflected heat hitting the dome and in time, those icicles get too heavy after melting and freezing, then fall off due to their weight, which we see as shooting stars or meteors or whatever else whizzes about in the sky.

It would turn liquid before ever getting the chance to become solid.  Once a liquid it would be more dense than the gas and fall then vaporize again. You would have a gaseous barrier instead of a solid one.  If you want to say it would freeze at that barrier so be it, but then you run into pressure versus no pressure on the dome, and we all know that ends catastrophically.

Quote from: hewholikespie on August 20, 2013, 10:57:04 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 20, 2013, 10:45:48 AM

Quote from: hewholikespie

So you agree that a perfect vacuum could exist on earth, surrounded by Ice/ Glass. Thank you.

What part about what I said, can't you grasp?

None of it. It's the necessary corollaries of what you say that you are failing to grasp, Scepti.

Quote

Quote from: hewholikespie

On what math and physical principle do you base this statement? A SCUBA Tank does not rupture when placed into a vacuum/ near vacuum, why would it collapse if the pressure differential was on the inside? Same thing applies to Submarines, vacuum tubes, and thermoses.

A scuba tank has and never will be placed into a perfect vacuum, or anything else for that matter.

Except A: All of Earth does, in your scenario, and

B: I said near vacuum as well. Also, given you say that 'vacuum' does not suck, why would you expect something with vacuum inside it to be crushed if air pressure alone cannot do the job?

Also, what's so hard to grasp about an airtight chamber half filled with air and water with a vacuum hose that has a watertight seal?

I don't know whether you can't grasp or are refusing to grasp what I'm saying.

You're the one refusing to grasp the consequences and contradictions of your own hypothesis, Scepti.

If a perfect vacuum can have an ice/ glass covered mass of molecules resting inside it- namely, earth- then there should be no problem producing a vacuum inside ice or glass.

Or course, this is all hypothetical, as your hypothesis would not stand up for an instant to experimental testing.


Another important question- what happens to things that leak out the bottom of the earth?

I'm still confused how it can skip becoming a liquid and then straight into a solid.

The reverse of sublimation; deposition.

Deposition still needs something to deposit the vapor onto.  How does one deposit hydrogen or helium vapor onto a perfect vacuum?

Deposition still needs something to deposit the vapor onto.  How does one deposit hydrogen or helium vapor onto a perfect vacuum?

I wasn't implying that it was actually happening, but that there is a process in which it could occur.

Quote from: markjo on August 20, 2013, 01:18:00 PM

Deposition still needs something to deposit the vapor onto.  How does one deposit hydrogen or helium vapor onto a perfect vacuum?

I wasn't implying that it was actually happening, but that there is a process in which it could occur.

Then you weren't adding anything to the topic as I had been asking how it works in his hypothesis, not in general.