10 Most Important Numbers

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2013, 04:19:31 AM »
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

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RyanTG

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2013, 01:20:58 PM »
Irritating.

The SI definition of c makes certain assumptions about the laws of physics.  For example, they assume that the particle of light, the photon, is massless.  If the photon had a small rest mass, the SI definition of the metre would become meaningless because the speed of light would change as a function of its wavelength.  They could not just define it to be constant.  They would have to fix the definition of the metre by stating which colour of light was being used.

It should also be noted that the value of c is wholly dependant on Einstein's theory of relativity being correct. And that thing has been battered to bits in recent years.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-First-Test-That-Proves-General-Theory-of-Relativity-Wrong-20259.shtml

Einstein's theory of relativity has been battered to bits? What physics are you following? Relativity has passed everything that has been thrown at it, latest research being:

http://phys.org/news/2013-04-einstein-gravity-theory-toughest-bizarre.html

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Rushy

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2013, 02:38:34 PM »
The most important number is zero, as the concept of zero is one of the most fundamental lessons in modern day mathematics. It is easy to forget that for most of human history, the concept of zero was mathematically non-existent.

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Rama Set

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2013, 04:34:53 PM »
The most important number is zero, as the concept of zero is one of the most fundamental lessons in modern day mathematics. It is easy to forget that for most of human history, the concept of zero was mathematically non-existent.

It existed, in that you could have no goats, but not formalized in that you could not get a sensible answer from 1-1.
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2013, 06:34:25 PM »
Irritating.

The SI definition of c makes certain assumptions about the laws of physics.  For example, they assume that the particle of light, the photon, is massless.  If the photon had a small rest mass, the SI definition of the metre would become meaningless because the speed of light would change as a function of its wavelength.  They could not just define it to be constant.  They would have to fix the definition of the metre by stating which colour of light was being used.

It should also be noted that the value of c is wholly dependant on Einstein's theory of relativity being correct. And that thing has been battered to bits in recent years.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-First-Test-That-Proves-General-Theory-of-Relativity-Wrong-20259.shtml

Einstein's theory of relativity has been battered to bits? What physics are you following? Relativity has passed everything that has been thrown at it, latest research being:

http://phys.org/news/2013-04-einstein-gravity-theory-toughest-bizarre.html

First of all, you should probably read the link Thork posted, as it thoroughly explains what he's talking about.

Second of all, you should read your own link, as it actually contradicts your point!  :o
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Rushy

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2013, 06:41:34 PM »
It existed, in that you could have no goats, but not formalized in that you could not get a sensible answer from 1-1.

Was this post supposed to add something to the discussion I have not already said? It seems to be a reply, but it just exactly repeats what I said with very linear verbiage.

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sokarul

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2013, 10:46:51 PM »
Irritating.

The SI definition of c makes certain assumptions about the laws of physics.  For example, they assume that the particle of light, the photon, is massless.  If the photon had a small rest mass, the SI definition of the metre would become meaningless because the speed of light would change as a function of its wavelength.  They could not just define it to be constant.  They would have to fix the definition of the metre by stating which colour of light was being used.

It should also be noted that the value of c is wholly dependant on Einstein's theory of relativity being correct. And that thing has been battered to bits in recent years.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-First-Test-That-Proves-General-Theory-of-Relativity-Wrong-20259.shtml

Einstein's theory of relativity has been battered to bits? What physics are you following? Relativity has passed everything that has been thrown at it, latest research being:

http://phys.org/news/2013-04-einstein-gravity-theory-toughest-bizarre.html

First of all, you should probably read the link Thork posted, as it thoroughly explains what he's talking about.

Second of all, you should read your own link, as it actually contradicts your point!  :o
Why? Ævan already ran away from this thread.
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PizzaPlanet

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2013, 10:59:45 PM »
Why?
So that you can learn something, for once.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

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sokarul

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2013, 11:04:40 PM »
Why?
So that you can learn something, for once.
You mean him learn something. I already disproved one of Ævan links. Is the current link in question actually not written by a 12 year old?
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FlatOrange

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2013, 11:58:54 PM »
I like all the discussion!  :-B

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RyanTG

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2013, 02:42:50 AM »

First of all, you should probably read the link Thork posted, as it thoroughly explains what he's talking about.

Second of all, you should read your own link, as it actually contradicts your point!  :o

Unless I have mistakenly misinterpreted what Thork was saying, he wasn't insinuating that the general theory of relativity has been "battered" in recent years simply because it must eventually be incorporated with quantum physics, it seemed to me as if he was suggesting that c is not a constant because the general theory of relativity is demonstrably being proven to be inconsistent or wrong.

Yes a photon is massless, the speed of light c is most definitely a constant (under known conditions) and yes the general theory of relativity is always going to be correct.

The theory is however going to breakdown, hopefully, under certain conditions which should inevitably pave the way for a grander theory which encompasses all known physics. Newton wasn't wrong and he still isn't wrong, his ideas are still be put to use, they just break down under certain circumstances.

I apologise if I misunderstood what he was trying to get across.

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Conker

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2013, 06:31:40 AM »
For Golden ratio guise there: while it is a constant, it is a constant in the same way that 5 is, because it is defined as a constant.
But c, being a speed, which is defined by a derivative of distance and time, shouldn't have to be constant. Nothing prohibited light going 30 km/hour and, under Newton's theory, it should be possible to do so. The fact that it isn't possible, and that it is not a transcendental number makes it way more interesting than pi or e or the Golden ratio.
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Thork

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2013, 06:53:36 AM »
For Golden ratio guise there: while it is a constant, it is a constant in the same way that 5 is, because it is defined as a constant.
But c, being a speed, which is defined by a derivative of distance and time, shouldn't have to be constant. Nothing prohibited light going 30 km/hour and, under Newton's theory, it should be possible to do so. The fact that it isn't possible, and that it is not a transcendental number makes it way more interesting than pi or e or the Golden ratio.

The speed of light in a vacuum is an arbitrary number based on units defined by arbitrary criteria. Being as we don't live in a vacuum its a fairly irrelevant number. the lengths of the bones in your hand are defined by the golden ratio. Your finger prints, the lengths of your arms, your legs, your features - the entire blueprint for your design. That's a number that has a direct effect on you.



It appears everywhere. The petals of a flower, the shape of a snail's shell, the spacing of planet orbits, music, art.







And you think a theoretical number means more?

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sandokhan

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2013, 07:24:08 AM »
Only one number matters: the sacred cubit (0.63566 m).

http://fliiby.com/file/893604/7bs6zt4et4.html

SACRED CUBIT = 0.63566
π = 3,1416
PHI = 1,618034
dp = 1 sacred cubit/25  x  100 = 2,5426

Then we obtain:

PHI/1dp = 1 sacred cubit

(PHI^2 x 12)/10 = π

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RyanTG

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2013, 07:26:45 AM »

The speed of light in a vacuum is an arbitrary number based on units defined by arbitrary criteria. Being as we don't live in a vacuum its a fairly irrelevant number. the lengths of the bones in your hand are defined by the golden ratio. Your finger prints, the lengths of your arms, your legs, your features - the entire blueprint for your design. That's a number that has a direct effect on you.


We know the refractive index of specific mediums, therefore we know the speed of light in those specific mediums. The speed of light isn't a useless number confined to esoteric theories.

I have also read a lot about how the golden ratio is applied erroneously in a post hoc sort of way. If you look for the golden ratio, you will seem to find it.

Here is an example where people have looked for the golden ratio and "found" it:


And here is the debunk: http://www.fastcodesign.com/1672682/debunking-the-myth-of-apple-s-golden-ratio#1

Organisms will arrange themselves and their constituent parts in the most efficient ways possible which will be using Fibonacci numbers. The golden ratio derives from the inevitable efficiency of systems, the golden ratio doesn't govern nature. Plants don't know what the hell a fibonacci number is.

It would be like me saying the sphere is the most important shape in the universe because it is the shape that requires the least energy to form.

The speed of light, e, pi and say Avogadro's number are much more important than the golden ratio.

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spoon

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2013, 07:35:49 AM »
Only one number matters: the sacred cubit (0.63566 m).

http://fliiby.com/file/893604/7bs6zt4et4.html

SACRED CUBIT = 0.63566
π = 3,1416
PHI = 1,618034
dp = 1 sacred cubit/25  x  100 = 2,5426

Then we obtain:

PHI/1dp = 1 sacred cubit

(PHI^2 x 12)/10 = π

First of all, what is dp? Your equation says it's just 4 x cubit. all a cubit is is a solution to the equation:

PHI/4x=x  =>  PHI=4x^2

So you're using a measurement based off of the cubit... To find the measurement of the cubit.. I see.

Also, why is the last equation and pi necessary for anything having to do with the cubit? phi wasn't derived from pi, as far as I'm aware.


I work nights are get the feeling of impennding doom for things most people take for granted.

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Tausami

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2013, 10:37:28 AM »
It isn't even that it's the most efficient. It's literally the only way they can form in most circumstances. They form that way because the direction in which a petal (or whatever) grows is determined by the amount of a hormone in that direction. When they grow, they use up that hormone. Therefore, the only three ways a plant can are are to follow phi, lucas numbers, or in a 180 degree pattern. It's really not that extraordinary.

Anyway, when I say c I do not mean 3X108. I mean the unitless speed of light. It doesn't have to be in meters/second2

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mathsman

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2013, 12:37:22 AM »

(PHI^2 x 12)/10 = π

Incorrect. Phi is an algebraic number whist pi is trancendental. No algebraic manipulation of phi, using rational numbers and rational powers, will result in pi.

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sandokhan

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2013, 05:02:07 AM »
But it is correct.

You simply have not read yet my Irrational Numbers do not Exist thread in the .net website (look for it there).

You have not done the research needed to understand this very important issue: the work done for the past 150 years which demonstrates that irrational numbers (algebraic or transcendental) do not exist, they are a mathematical pipe dream.

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Conker

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2013, 06:29:24 AM »
But it is correct.

You simply have not read yet my Irrational Numbers do not Exist thread in the .net website (look for it there).

You have not done the research needed to understand this very important issue: the work done for the past 150 years which demonstrates that irrational numbers (algebraic or transcendental) do not exist, they are a mathematical pipe dream.
Incorrect, as for I know. Just inputed that equation on Wolfram Alpha. The result, with 52 decimal numbers is: 3.1416407864998738178455042012387657412643710157669154
While the correct value of pi with 50 decimal numbers is:
3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510
It has an error of almost 5x10^-5.
Also, just because someone didn't read/believed you sources it cannot be trusted. The amount of experimental and demostrative evidence is so big that it isn't even investigated anymore. While you are open to make your own claims, as you can see, they are not correct.
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mathsman

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2013, 06:32:12 AM »
But it is correct.

You simply have not read yet my Irrational Numbers do not Exist thread in the .net website (look for it there).

You have not done the research needed to understand this very important issue: the work done for the past 150 years which demonstrates that irrational numbers (algebraic or transcendental) do not exist, they are a mathematical pipe dream.

This is true, I have not done my homework; I have done my University work. The existence of irrational numbers has been known for ages. The irrational numbers outnumber the rational ones. You see, I get my mathematics from text books and mathematics professors.
Every internet forum has some crackpot who thinks he has discovered something new. The irrationality of the square root of 2 is often proved in the text books, and by generalising that proof, the irrationality of the nth root of any integer which is not a perfect  nth power is established. At the heart of the proof is the Fundamental Theorem of Arithmetic.

The irrationality of e can be proved without recourse to the aforementioned theorem. I recommend a little reading for you:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Proofs-BOOK-Martin-Aigner/dp/3642008550

Proofs From the Book a compendium of some of the most elegant theorems in mathematics, compiled in honour of the great mathematician Paul Erdos.


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sandokhan

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2013, 07:00:02 AM »
As I have said, you (both of you) have not done your homework.

The existence of irrational numbers has been known for ages.

Not at all, as I will demonstrate shortly.


conker, please refrain from punch-drunk theoretizing...each decimal digit must be connected in some way to real physics.

The irrationality of the square root of 2 HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN, this is the point I am trying to make.


Now, please read the following very carefully.


OFFICIAL CHRONOLOGY IRRATIONAL NUMBER HISTORY

The concept of the irrational number has its origins in the secret society led by Pythagoras, approximately 2,500 years ago. It could be said that the invention of the irrational number is the greatest "scientific" discovery ever made, as we are told by all the leading mathematical analysis textbooks.

'The idea that the size of every physical quantity could, in theory, be represented by a rational number was shattered in the fifth century B.C. by Hippasus of Metapontum, who demonstrated by geometric methods the existence of irrational numbers. This dramatic discovery of Hippasus is one of the most fundamental in the entire history of science. According to legend, Hippasus was thrown overboard at sea, by the Pythagoreans, because of his discovery.'

But Hippasus was not assasinated by Pythagoras' disciples for revealing the existence of irrational numbers; Hippasus had discovered something much more ominous about this matter.

The odd thing about the discovery of the irrational numbers is the fact that the most celebrated "proofs" (geometrical/algebraic) were offered by Pythagoras himself to the public through his disciples. What Hippasus had uncovered was something much more interesting; that is, that THERE ARE NO IRRATIONAL NUMBERS (there exist only natural and rational numbers [with a finite decimal part]), and that Pythagoras was planning to inject the false concept of the irrational number to the public (scientific/philosophical). The two proofs offered by Pythagoras do not demonstrate ANYTHING regarding the existence of irrational numbers; Hippasus was assasinated by his colleagues so as not to reveal to the world what Pythagoras was actually trying to do: to mislead the coming generations of mathematicians.


http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Kronecker.html

The only mathematician who realized that there were no irrational numbers in the real/physical world, and who continuously attacked R. Dedekind and G. Cantor for their mathematical pipe dreams, was Leopold Kronecker.

Kronecker is well known for his remark:-

God created the integers, all else is the work of man.
Irrational numbers are totally man-invented.

Kronecker believed that mathematics should deal only with finite numbers and with a finite number of operations. He was the first to doubt the significance of non-constructive existence proofs. It appears that, from the early 1870s, Kronecker was opposed to the use of irrational numbers, upper and lower limits, and the Bolzano-Weierstrass theorem, because of their non-constructive nature. Another consequence of his philosophy of mathematics was that to Kronecker transcendental numbers could not exist.

In 1870 Heine published a paper On trigonometric series in Crelle's Journal, but Kronecker had tried to persuade Heine to withdraw the paper. Again in 1877 Kronecker tried to prevent publication of Cantor's work in Crelle's Journal, not because of any personal feelings against Cantor (which has been suggested by some biographers of Cantor) but rather because Kronecker believed that Cantor's paper was meaningless, since it proved results about mathematical objects which Kronecker believed did not exist. Kronecker was on the editorial staff of Crelle's Journal which is why he had a particularly strong influence on what was published in that journal. After Borchardt died in 1880, Kronecker took over control of Crelle's Journal as the editor and his influence on which papers would be published increased.

Although Kronecker's view of mathematics was well known to his colleagues throughout the 1870s and 1880s, it was not until 1886 that he made these views public. In that year he argued against the theory of irrational numbers used by Dedekind, Cantor and Heine giving the arguments by which he opposed:-

... the introduction of various concepts by the help of which it has frequently been attempted in recent times (but first by Heine) to conceive and establish the 'irrationals' in general. Even the concept of an infinite series, for example one which increases according to definite powers of variables, is in my opinion only permissible with the reservation that in every special case, on the basis of the arithmetic laws of constructing terms (or coefficients), ... certain assumptions must be shown to hold which are applicable to the series like finite expressions, and which thus make the extension beyond the concept of a finite series really unnecessary.

Lindemann had proved that π is transcendental in 1882, and in a lecture given in 1886 Kronecker complimented Lindemann on a beautiful proof but, he claimed, one that proved nothing since transcendental numbers did not exist.

He believed that all mathematics could be reduced to arguments using only the integers and finite numbers of operations. He was violently opposed to such things as the use of irrational numbers, transcendental numbers, upper and lower limits, and the Bolzano-Weierstrass theorem (well, much of the new mathematics being developed by Karl Weierstrass for that matter), as these devices he felt produced objects that did not exist. This extreme philosophical viewpoint on mathematics caused him to quarrel with many mathematicians, even going so far as to block publication of papers by Heinrich Heine (of the Heine-Borel theorem) on Fourier series and papers by Georg Cantor on transfinite numbers and set theory (not because he personally didn't like Cantor, as asserted by some of Cantor's biographers, but only because he was violently opposed to Cantor's ideas) in the influential Crelle's Journal. In 1889 Ferdinand von Lindemann produced a proof that π was transcendental, and Kronecker was said to have given von Lindemann the backhanded compliment: 'Of what use is your beautiful proof, since π does not exist!'

This extreme point of view, which made Kronecker many enemies in his time, was actually a view first propounded by Pythagoras, who called the irrational numbers that he discovered to his consternation 'unutterable' (this is the reason why the word surd is used to designate the irrational roots discovered by the Pythagoreans, it is ultimately derived from the Latin for 'deaf-mute'). Leibniz himself spoke of the 'labyrinth of the continuum' when referring to the philosophical troubles that the very idea of real numbers is fraught with. In fact the term 'real number' is something of a misnomer, as they are actually quite unreal! In fact, it can be shown that almost all real numbers are transcendental, uncomputable, and cannot even be named! Mathematicians in the century after Kronecker managed to show all of these, and with these discoveries, Kronecker's position doesn't seem quite as untenable as it seemed to his contemporaries.


First of all, we start with the theory of real numbers that was proposed by Cantor and Richard Dedekind, which Kronecker was so vehemently opposed to. Dedekind managed to give a definition of a real number in terms of what are today known as Dedekind cuts, and Cantor managed to show that the real numbers are non-denumerable, that they are a higher-order infinity than the integers by using the diagonal argument that bears his name. Since the integers, rational numbers, and algebraic numbers are all denumerable, then that means that most real numbers are actually transcendental.

However, in the early twentieth century there began to appear intimations that there was something terribly wrong with the notion of a real number as it has been thus developed. Emile Borel in 1927 pointed out that if you consider a real number as an infinite sequence of digits then you could put an infinite amount of information into a single number. He came up with a number, known as Borel's constant, that could serve as an oracle to answer any yes/no question put to it. Today, Borel's argument might be stated a bit like this: let us treat each possible ASCII text as though it were a single number, for instance 'Do real numbers exist?' would correspond to the hexadecimal number 0x446F207265616C206E786973743F, or 1,388,008,220,904,010,789,705,024,363,787,327 in decimal. Then we take, say, the 1,388,008,220,904,010,789,705,024,363,787,327th digit of Borel's constant in base 4. If the digit is 0, then the number does not correspond to a valid question, if it is 1 then the question is unanswerable (e.g. 'Is the answer to this question 'no'?'), 2 if the answer is no, and 3 if the answer is yes. Such a 'know it all' real number is certainly present in the set of all reals. But then Borel asks this troubling question: 'Why should we believe in this real number that answers every possible yes/no question?' And he concludes that he doesn't believe it, there is no reason to believe it, that such a thing should exist is totally absurd!


The proof by contradiction, suggested by Pythagoras and made public by his disciples, where it is shown that rad(2) [radical of 2, square root of 2] cannot equal p/q, where p and q are natural numbers 0, is not a valid proof as it deliberately misses the essential point; rad(2) is a continued fraction algorithm which in turn is a sequence of finite fractions, used to a desired accuracy.

There are no perfect circles or perfect squares in the natural world, this was Pythagoras' greatest secret regarding his mathematics research; any perfect circle implies the concept of the irrational number;

a[2] + b[2] = c[2] is a formula involving natural or rational numbers; its geometric representation is a right triangle with sides a and b, c being the hypothenuse. 1[2] + 1[2] = rad(2)[2] is a meaningless formula with no geometric representation.


To construct proper solutions to 1[2] + 1[2] = rad(2)[2], with proper geometric representations, we need to use the continued fraction algorithm. Using this algorithm, to three decimal places, we obtain 1.414,

1 = .414 x 1/.414 = a
c = (0.414 + 1/0.414)/2, b = (1/0.414 - 0.414)/2

We obtain, (2 x 0.414)(2) + (1 - 0.414(2))(2) = (0.414(2) + 1)(2)

* (0.828 )(2) + (0.828604)(2) = (1.171396)(2) * or, after multiplying by 1000 and dividing by 4,
207000(2) + 207151(2) = 292849(2), further,

207000/292849 + 207151/292849 = 1.414213468

If we multiply * (the equation above marked with *) by, for example, 1.207 we get:

(0.999396)(2) + (1.000125028 )(2) = (1.413874972)(2), and this is a proper solution to three decimal places accuracy.


Pythagoras also knew that there are only rational numbers with finite decimal part; in the real world there are no fractions such as 1/3, 1/7 which imply infinity, and infinity cannot exist in the physical world. It is possible, using the continued fraction algorithm, to obtain very close (as close as we please) approximations to 1/3, 1/7 whose denominators are in the form 2(n), 5(m), which can be divided exactly, b/c, where b is a multiple of 3 (ex: 0.999396/3).

Elementary transcendental functions can be reduced to calculating a series of nested roots, thus obtaining approximations which do not involve irrational numbers (I obtained such a representation for the logarithm function, back in 1998).




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sandokhan

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2013, 07:09:07 AM »
WHY WAS THE IRRATIONAL NUMBER CONCEPT SO BADLY NEEDED BY THE HELIOCENTRISTS?

And now we get to the crux of the matter: when Newton invented his results on the three body problem, he did not realize that the differential equations approach, built upon the irrational number concept, cannot possibly describe mathematically the heliocentric planetary system because of the existence of chaotical orbits, the quadratic homoclinic tangency problem.

The first great mathematician who discovered with amazement and shock that Newton's differential equations include chaotical orbits was Henri Poincare.

It is only at the highest level of academic circles specialized in bifurcation theory (thus, well-hidden from public view) where we find the truth about the original H. Poincare quotes, which do show that a differential equation (initial value d.e.) approach to celestial mechanics IS IMPOSSIBLE.

As Poincare experimented, he was relieved to discover that in most of
the situations, the possible orbits varied only slightly from the initial
2-body orbit, and were still stable, but what occurred during further
experimentation was a shock. Poincare discovered that even in some of the
smallest approximations some orbits behaved in an erratic unstable manner. His
calculations showed that even a minute gravitational pull from a third body
might cause a planet to wobble and fly out of orbit all together.

Here is Poincare describing his findings:

While Poincare did not succeed in giving a complete solution, his work was so impressive that he was awarded the prize anyway. The distinguished Weierstrass, who was one of the judges, said, 'this work cannot indeed be considered as furnishing the complete solution of the question proposed, but that it is nevertheless of such importance that its publication will inaugurate a new era in the history of celestial mechanics.' A lively account of this event is given in Newton's Clock: Chaos in the Solar System. To show how visionary Poincare was, it is perhaps best if he described the Hallmark of Chaos - sensitive dependence on initial conditions - in his own words:

'If we knew exactly the laws of nature and the situation of the universe at the initial moment, we could predict exactly the situation of that same universe at a succeeding moment. but even if it were the case that the natural laws had no longer any secret for us, we could still only know the initial situation approximately. If that enabled us to predict the succeeding situation with the same approximation, that is all we require, and we should say that the phenomenon had been predicted, that it is governed by laws. But it is not always so; it may happen that small differences in the initial conditions produce very great ones in the final phenomena. A small error in the former will produce an enormous error in the latter. Prediction becomes impossible, and we have the fortuitous phenomenon.' - in a 1903 essay 'Science and Method'

That is why the conspirators had to invent a very complicated new theory, called chaos theory, with the help of G.D. Birkhoff and N. Levinson; their work was the inspiration for S. Smale's horseshoe map, a very clever way to describe Poincare's original findings as "workable" and "manageable". The formidable implications are, of course, that chaotical motion of the planets predicted by the differential equation approach of the London Royal Society is a thing that could happen ANYTIME, and not just some millions of years in the future, not to mention the sensitive dependence on initial conditions phenomenon.

Even measuring initial conditions of the system to an arbitrarily high, but finite accuracy, we will not be able to describe the system dynamics "at any time in the past or future". To predict the future of a chaotic system for arbitrarily long times, one would need to know the initial conditions with infinite accuracy, and this is by no means possible.


http://web.archive.org/web/20090108031631/http://essay.studyarea.com/old_essay/science/chaos_theory_explained.htm

http://ptrow.com/articles/ChaosandSolarSystem5.htm

Smale Horseshoe concept:

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~mcc/Chaos_Course/Lesson23/Predicting.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_map


KAM theory:

http://www.math.rug.nl/~broer/pdf/kolmo100.pdf


Velikovsky stability theory:

http://www.ralph-abraham.org/interviews/abraham-ebert.html


Butterfly effect:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_attractor (this is the only time you will see wikipedia type articles in my messages)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

E. Lorenz did not realize that a system of three nonlinear differential equations could not approximate at all such a complicated natural phenomenon; there is no butterfly effect, the weather in Asia will not change due to the movement of a butterfly's wings in North America (sensitive dependence on initial conditions).


http://homepages.ulb.ac.be/~gaspard/G.Acad.00.pdf

Homoclinic orbits:

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/nlin/pdf/0702/0702044v2.pdf


Poincare chaos:

http://web.archive.org/web/20061208155727/http://pims.math.ca/pi/current/page25-29.pdf

Dynamics and Bifurcations, J. Hale and H. Kocak (pages 248, 477, 486-490)
Introduction to Applied Nonlinear Dynamical Systems and Chaos, S. Wiggins (pages 286, 384, 420-443, 550, 612), both edited by Springer-Verlag; the information in these pages actually show the mathematical and physical implications of chaos theory.

The Duffing oscillator (prototype for nonlinear oscillations), the driven Morse oscillator, Poincare's three body problem equations, the librational motion of a satellite equations, the Ginzburg-Landau equation (nonlinear Schrodinger eq.) which reduces to the Duffing oscillator, all will have parameter values for which the stable/unstable manifolds of a saddle point will come into contact tangentially - homoclinic tangency.

Differential equations can be used on a very limited base (classical mechanics, quality-control, electronics/electrical engr., thermodynamics, and even here with certain assumptions/simplifications) and not at all in order to describe/predict biological processes and cosmological theories, where the aether theory comes into play to explain all the details.

Moreover, the system parameters will be varying functions of time, not to mention that the coefficients of the forcing/damping functions will not be "sufficiently small" in actual practice.

The assumptions actually made in describing various phenomena in several branches of physics are very well described in the classic Mathematics applied to deterministic problems in natural sciences by C.C. Lin and L. Segel (chapters 1, 4, 6, 8 ); page 43 exemplifies the extraordinary philosophical implications of the differential equation approach in modern physics:

http://www.ec-securehost.com/SIAM/CL01.html


Now we know that Pythagoras never existed actually, as there were no ancient Greece/Rome/Egypt in our radical new chronology, and that the conspirators invented the irrational number concept in order to deceive the public regarding the Pythagorean comma (instead of a circle of fifths, we would have a spiral of fifths); they also invented, through J.S. Bach, the equal temperament scale in order to hide the real scale they used to produce levitation of large blocks of stone.


D. Hempel on Pythagoras' irrational numbers:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10283
http://www.breakingopenthehead.com/forum/showpost.php?s=b7d281def62a68bb3f0971352e1ed848&p=30829&postcount=5




Scientists used to, before the chaos theory, believe in the
theory of reductionism, many still do. Reductionism imagines nature as equally
capable of being assembled and disassembled. Reductionists think that when
everything is broken down a universal theory will become evident that will
explain all things. Reductionism implied the rather simple view of chaos
evident in Laplace's dream of a universal formula: Chaos was merely complexity
so great that in practice scientists couldn't track it, but in principle they
might one day be able to. When that day came there would be no chaos,
everything in existence would be perfectly predictable, no surprises, the
world would be safely mutable. The universe would be completely controlled by
Newton's laws.

Chaos touches all things in existence, and all sciences,
mathematics, physics, biology, anthropology, entomology, astronomy, even the
Ivory Tower science of Newtonian physics. In the last years of the 19th
century French mathematician, physicist and philosopher Henri Poincare
stumbled headlong into chaos with a realization that the reductionism method
may be illusory in nature. He was studying his chosen field at the time; a
field he called the mathematics of closed systems, the epitome of Newtonian
physics. A Closed system is one made up of just a few interacting bodies
sealed off from outside contamination. According to classical physics, such
systems are perfectly orderly and predictable. A simple pendulum in a vacuum,
free of friction and air resistance will conserve its energy. The pendulum
will swing back and forth for all eternity. It will not be subject to the
dissipation of entropy, which eats its way into systems by causing them to
give up their energy to the surrounding environment. Classical scientists were
convinced that any randomness and chaos disturbing a system such as a pendulum
in a vacuum or the revolving planets could only come from outside chance
contingencies. Barring those, pendulum and planets must continue forever,
unvarying in their courses.

It was this comfortable picture of nature that
Poincare blew apart when he attempted to determine the stability of our solar
system. For a system containing only two bodies, such as the sun and earth or
earth and moon, Newton's equations can be solved exactly: The orbit of the
moon around the earth can be precisely determined. For any idealized two-body
system the orbits are stable. Thus if we neglect the dragging effects of the
tides on the moon's motion, we can assume that the moon will continue to wind
around the earth until the end of time. But we also have to ignore the effect
of the sun and other planets on this idealized two-body system. Poincare's
problem was that when an additional body was added to the situation, like the
influence of the sun, Newton's equations became unsolvable. What must be done
in this situation is use a series of approximations to close in on an answer.
In order to solve such an equation, physicists were forced to use a theory
called Perturbation. Which basically works in a third body by a series of
successive approximations. Each approximation is smaller than the one before
it, and by adding up a potentially infinite amount of these numbers,
theoretical physicists hoped to arrive a working equation. Poincare knew that
the approximation theory appeared to work well for the first couple of
approximations, but what about further down the line, what effect would the
infinity of smaller approximations have? The multi-bodied equation Poincare?
was attempting was essentially a Non-linear equation. As opposed to a
differential or linear equation. For science, a phenomenon is orderly if its
movements can be explained in the kind of cause-and-effect scheme represented
by a differential equation. Newton first introduced the differential idea
throughout his famous laws of motion, which related rates of change to various
forces. Quickly scientists came to rely on linear differential equations.
Phenomena as diverse as the flight of a cannonball, the growth of a plant, the
burning of coal, and the performance of a machine can be described by such
equations. In which small changes produce small effects and large effects are
obtained by summing up many small changes. A non-linear equation is quite
different. In a non-linear equation a small change in one variable can have a
disproportional, even catastrophic impact on other variables. Behaviors can
drastically change at any time. In linear equations the solution of one
equation allows the solver to generalize to other solutions; in non-linear
equations solutions tend to be consistently individual and unrelated to the
same equation with different variables. In Poincare's multi-bodied equation,
he added a term that added nonlinear complexity to the system (feedback) that
corresponded to the small effect produced by the movement of the third body in
the system. As he experimented, he was relieved to discover that in most of
the situations, the possible orbits varied only slightly from the initial
2-body orbit, and were still stable but what occurred during further
experimentation was a shock. Poincare discovered that even in some of the
smallest approximations some orbits behaved in an erratic unstable manner. His
calculations showed that even a minute gravitational pull from a third body
might cause a planet to wobble and fly out of orbit all together.

Poincare's discovery was not fully understood until 1953 by Russian physicist A. N. Kolmogorov. Initially
scientists believed that in theory they could break up a complicated system
into its components before experimentation because any changes in patterns
would be small and not effect an established construct such as an orbit.
Kolmogorov was not prepared to accept that the whole universe is a fraction of
a decimal point away from self-destruction. Unfortunately his research didn't
help. Kolmgorov concluded, from his own calculations, that the solar system
won't break up under its own motion provided that the influence of an
additional gravitational source was no bigger than a fly approximately 7000
miles away, and the cycles per planetary year did not occur in a simple
ratio like 1:2 1:3 or 2:3 and so on.

But, what happens when the planet's years form a simple ratio? Well, that would mean that with each orbit, the
disturbance is amplified due to a steady input of gravitational energy. It
creates a resonance feedback effect much like a normal microphone amplifier.
Say you lie an amplifiers input mic directly in front of its output speaker.
Any sound that enters the microphone will be played back through the speaker
louder, that playback will be picked up by the mic and amplified once again,
eventually the volume will reach its critical point and the speaker will blow
out. Well, if this were so, is there proof? Does this really happen in space?
Could this occur in our solar system? The answer is yes.


No other comments are needed.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 07:14:16 AM by sandokhan »

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RyanTG

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2013, 07:50:56 AM »
If we lived on a planet governed by the laws of Sandokhan I don't think we would have made it past the year 3000BC in technological terms...


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mathsman

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2013, 07:51:46 AM »

The irrationality of the square root of 2 HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN, this is the point I am trying to make.


The irrationality of the square root of 2 has been proven because I have proved it. This does not mean I discovered the proof it means I can follow the proof, reconstruct it from memory and fully understand it. To refute my claim that the square root of 2 is irrational please provide me with the integers which form its ratio.


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Conker

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2013, 08:55:10 AM »
I'm going to analyze your claims, if you don't care:

Quote
conker, please refrain from punch-drunk theoretizing...each decimal digit must be connected in some way to real physics.
Yeah, no. Maths =/= science.

-Blah blah blah conspiracy which does not apport anything valuable. Also you seem to think than 1 source is better than multiple sources. And you tell the heartwarming story of the "beautiful yet useless" pi proof twice. Is that copypasta I see?


Quote
Emile Borel in 1927 pointed out that if you consider a real number as an infinite sequence of digits then you could put an infinite amount of information into a single number [...] known as Borel's constant, that could serve as an oracle to answer any yes/no question put to it. [...] Borel's argument might be stated a bit like this: let us treat each possible ASCII text as though it were a single number, for instance 'Do real numbers exist?' would correspond to the hexadecimal number 0x446F207265616C206E786973743F, or 1,388,008,220,904,010,789,705,024,363,787,327 in decimal. Then we take, say, the 1,388,008,220,904,010,789,705,024,363,787,327th digit of Borel's constant in base 4. If the digit is 0, then the number does not correspond to a valid question, if it is 1 then the question is unanswerable (e.g. 'Is the answer to this question 'no'?'), 2 if the answer is no, and 3 if the answer is yes. Such a 'know it all' real number is certainly present in the set of all reals. But then Borel asks this troubling question: 'Why should we believe in this real number that answers every possible yes/no question?' And he concludes that he doesn't believe it, there is no reason to believe it, that such a thing should exist is totally absurd!

I believe it is funny that I couldn't find a single reference about Borel's constant anywhere. Care to post sources?
Also: Information theory, man. A decaying radioactive isothope emits radiation at random intervals (given a short sampling time). This can be used to provide one of the only real random information sources. It is perfectly possible that a sample would correspond to the ASCII equivalent in base 63 of "Thus Spoke Zarathustra", yet it is impossible to know when the string will do that, even with infinite computing power and time. So, the information it contains is fully enthropical. No information can be extracted from that. The same goes to your constant

Quote
The proof by contradiction, suggested by Pythagoras and made public by his disciples, where it is shown that rad(2) [radical of 2, square root of 2] cannot equal p/q, where p and q are natural numbers 0, is not a valid proof as it deliberately misses the essential point; rad(2) is a continued fraction algorithm which in turn is a sequence of finite fractions, used to a desired accuracy.
No. A continued fraction algorithm is a method for calculating that root to a certain degree of accuracy. Yet the root is not defined like that. It's defined as the limit of such a succesion. Also, you are yet to proove it is not a valid proof.

Quote
Elementary transcendental functions can be reduced to calculating a series of nested roots
[citation needed]

Then you come with the 3-body problem, which is in fact a consequence of using not infinitely precise numbers (more or less).
Also, 3 body problems exist outside of gravitation. Substitute gravitation for electromagnetism and give me the function of the movement along a space of 4 electric charges put at random locations using your method.

Also, tidal lock. And try to be a bit less of a self-confident jerk when it comes to preach derp science. I may not be the brighttest light in this forum, yet I see what you said, has several faults.
This is not a joke society.
Quote from: OpenedEyes
You shouldn't be allowed to talk on a free discussion forum.

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mathsman

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2013, 01:55:13 PM »
Here is a proof of the irrationality of the square root of 2. I've tried to make it accessible to anybody with high school algebra.



If you change your zoom level it becomes easier to read.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2013, 03:13:25 PM »
I have to ask, why do people bother trying to argue with Sandokhan?  Do you guys seriously even bother to read his posts?  He'll stop posting if you just ignore them.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2013, 03:28:02 PM »
I have to ask, why do people bother trying to argue with Sandokhan?  Do you guys seriously even bother to read his posts?  He'll stop posting if you just ignore them.

The continued updates to his magnum opus in FEB seem to contradict this.

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DuckDodgers

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Re: 10 Most Important Numbers
« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2013, 04:19:40 PM »
His post has made my two favorite numbers pi and e.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.