how can we see the Crux

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iwanttobelieve

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2013, 09:49:33 AM »
I live near the 48th Paralell N. Is there a way I can see the Southern cross? I have tried but never succeeded. Cassopiea is usually overhead.

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Pythagoras

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2013, 09:51:38 AM »
no it cant bee seen that far north in the northern hemisphere.

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Pythagoras

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2013, 09:52:50 AM »
can i have a link to your new years eave party quote please.

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Thork

Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2013, 09:56:15 AM »
you have the link. I gave it to you in the quote author bit.

http://goo.gl/ffPVv on page 14.

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Dinosaur Neil

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2013, 10:26:00 AM »
This thread is about Crux. Not the midnight sun.

If you wish to discuss the midnight sun as though this is something I've never come across and have absolutely no explanation for, go ahead. you may add the source below to your OP.

You have read discussions about the midnight sun, I'm sure, and therefore acknowledge that in winter there is just the opposite - no sun at all. Hence the simultaneous visibility of Crux Australis in the locations given in the OP. You are playing the Moron In A Hurry card very unconvincingly here.
Thanks for ignoring all my sources again and providing none of your own. I have truly lost interest now. :(

I have a policy of ignoring references that don't support the argument of the person posting them as support for their argument. It's nothing personal. Perhaps you'd like to study this link:
http://davidbarringhaus.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/antarctic-circle-what-is-it.html
...where it both explains in text form, and with a map representation, that the midnight sun is not even visible from the whole of Antarctica. And the link describes a New Year celebration - a whole ten days after the solstice which is when the midnight sun attains the latitudes furthest from the pole. Ten days later, you would have to be nearer the pole to observe it than on the solstice.
As for providing no sources of my own, there are other threads specifically about this phenomenon, which are current in discussion. Use your eyes and the search function. There is video evidence on this site, as well as elsewhere on the internet. Google is your friend.
Founder member of the League Of Scientific Gentlemen and Mademoiselles des Connaissances.
I am pompous, self-righteous, thin skinned, and smug.

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Pythagoras

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2013, 10:33:11 AM »
Also lets change things a little bit then. Now imagine two people 1000 miles apart at 70 degrees south. Pointing perfectly south with their backs facing north. They will both be observing the crux at the same time if you draw a line on the map in the direction they are facing you will notice that thier sight lines instead of converging on the crux actually diverge in different angles. Il try draw this on a map later if its hard to imagine.

As for your link thork the writer of the article was at 63 degrees north at the time he wrote the article. The midnight sun is not visible thier at that time of year. Hmmmm.

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Kendrick

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2013, 02:57:21 PM »
Due to this and other evidence that flat-earth map is rather outdated.

This one is currently much more fashionable due to the shape of 'Antarctica' being much more in line with first-hand reports.




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Dinosaur Neil

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2013, 03:02:16 PM »
Although that map solves the antarctic problem, it introduces others.
Founder member of the League Of Scientific Gentlemen and Mademoiselles des Connaissances.
I am pompous, self-righteous, thin skinned, and smug.

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Manarq

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2013, 03:18:00 PM »
I don't think you need to go that far south.

Here are the local sunrise and sunset times for 3 locations basically at -34o south on June 20th.
Buenas Aires (-4 GMT)
Sunrise - 07:00  (GMT Time - 03:00)
Sunset - 16:49  (GMT Time - 12:49)

Cape Town (+1 GMT)
Sunrise - 06:51  (GMT Time - 07:51)
Sunset - 16:44  (GMT Time - 16:44)

Sydney (+10 GMT)
Sunrise - 06:59  (GMT Time - 16:59)
Sunset - 16:53  (GMT Time - 02:53)

Sydney and Cape Town can observe the celestial south pole at the same time and Cape Town and Buenas Aires can observe it at the same time.

If you want to go a bit further south you can observe the south celestial pole in Tazmania and South America at the same time.
I'd like to agree with you but then we'd both be wrong!

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Manarq

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2013, 03:18:53 PM »
What course does the sun take on that map Kendrick?
I'd like to agree with you but then we'd both be wrong!

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Pythagoras

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2013, 08:47:29 AM »
so lets use two points in Australia. we all know people live their dont we? so two people standing looking south with their backs to the north looking at the crux at the same point.in the sky. as you can see on a flat earth this is not possible the lines that show where they are looking do not converge on the single point instead they diverge away from each other. any answers?



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Thork

Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2013, 08:54:20 AM »
so lets use two points in Australia. we all know people live their dont we? so two people standing looking south with their backs to the north looking at the crux at the same point.in the sky. as you can see on a flat earth this is not possible the lines that show where they are looking do not converge on the single point instead they diverge away from each other. any answers?



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Unlike Polaris in the North, the Southern Cross is not over the South pole.



There are three ways to locate due south using the Southern Cross:

1. Draw an imaginary line from the top of the cross to the bottom and extend it 4.5 times. Drop a vertical line from this point, which is the South Celestial Pole (SCP), to the horizon – that place is due south.

2. Extend an imaginary line from the dimmer of the two Pointers to a lone bright star called Achernar. The South Celestial Pole is about halfway along this line. Locate south by dropping a vertical line from the South Celestial Pole to the horizon.

3. Imagine a line connecting the Pointers. Midway along this line, extend another line at a right angle to it, until it meets another line drawn down the long axis of the Southern Cross. The meeting place is the approximate location of the South Celestial Pole. Locate south by dropping a vertical line from here to the horizon.

Please learn some astronomy before rushing to the forum again with crazy wide eyed theories about where South should be using a constellation.

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Pythagoras

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2013, 08:58:23 AM »
im not talking about locating south? ??? im talking about to people looking at a object near the south celestial pole but their sight lines are diverging instead of converging. what thread you reading?

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Thork

Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2013, 09:00:35 AM »
But that's just it. The Southern Cross is not south. That's why you need to do the calculation. ::)

[/thread]

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Pythagoras

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2013, 09:12:22 AM »
im well aware thork its not at the south celestial pole. it is 5is degrees of the mark. but it dsnt change the fact the observers are looking in largely different directions.

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Thork

Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2013, 09:24:26 AM »
im well aware thork its not at the south celestial pole. it is 5is degrees of the mark. but it dsnt change the fact the observers are looking in largely different directions.
No, they are both looking south. It is the same direction. Rimwards. The constellation and applied calculation merely helps you find the shortest path to the rim.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 09:32:36 AM by Thork »

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Pythagoras

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2013, 09:32:40 AM »
do their sight lines converge at any point along their path or continue to diverge? i think you will find they continue to diverge meaning they cant be looking at the same point. which means their must be two identical southern crosses of the model you are using is wrong.

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Thork

Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2013, 09:36:04 AM »
This is because you assume the earth is round. Which it is not.

They are not looking at a point. They are looking at a direction (south) that is found by performing a calculation. Depending on where you are, the calculation will point you to the shortest path to find the rim AKA south).


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Pythagoras

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2013, 09:40:30 AM »
yes and both lines on the map are pointing south? im using the flat earth map im not talking about RE what parts are you struggling with? they are both looking in different directions away from each other but both see the same thing? how is this possible?

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Thork

Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2013, 09:43:41 AM »
No, they are looking in the SAME direction. SOUTH! South is defined as the opposite direction to North. From  where they stand, South is rimwards for both of them. The Southern Cross helps you find SOUTH.

The calculation helps you find a DIRECTION. Not a singular point. That DIRECTION is SOUTH. It is the SAME for both of them.

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Pythagoras

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2013, 09:48:30 AM »
how can both people see the same object? they are looking in different directions?

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Thork

Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2013, 09:49:46 AM »
how can both people see the same object? they are looking in different directions?
No, they are looking in the SAME direction. South. Have you taken a knock to the head?

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Pythagoras

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2013, 09:51:19 AM »
then why are the lines on the map not parallel?

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Thork

Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #53 on: January 15, 2013, 09:55:18 AM »
then why are the lines on the map not parallel?
Because the earth is not a square.

On a round earth, are the lines of longitude parallel? No. Imagine 2 people standing on the equator on a round earth about 2000 miles apart. For them both to head north, do the lines stay parallel or do they converge?

I know you are going to drag this out for 8 pages or so. I'll ask for your forgiveness in advance when I get bored of saying that they are looking in the same direction and that that direction is south. I'll likely abandon the thread if you don't make some effort to try and understand the basics of trigonometry.

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Pythagoras

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2013, 09:56:53 AM »
i think you are struggling to answer something you cant so please feel free and depart.

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Thork

Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2013, 09:59:44 AM »
Ok, last try.

1. On that FE map, from those 2 observers, I want you to draw the direction they must look for NORTH.
2. Then explain why that is not parallel.
3. Then tell me why South should be parallel when North isn't.

Go on. GET out MS paint and draw lines showing the direction of North from those 2 points.

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markjo

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2013, 10:21:35 AM »
This is because you assume the earth is round. Which it is not.

They are not looking at a point. They are looking at a direction (south) that is found by performing a calculation. Depending on where you are, the calculation will point you to the shortest path to find the rim AKA south).

Thork, please read the OP again.  Sound out the big words if you need to.  The OP is not asking you how to find the shortest path to the rim.  He's asking how to find the shortest path to a point in the southern sky referred to as the constellation Crux.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Thork

Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2013, 10:31:13 AM »
This is because you assume the earth is round. Which it is not.

They are not looking at a point. They are looking at a direction (south) that is found by performing a calculation. Depending on where you are, the calculation will point you to the shortest path to find the rim AKA south).

Thork, please read the OP again.  Sound out the big words if you need to.  The OP is not asking you how to find the shortest path to the rim.  He's asking how to find the shortest path to a point in the southern sky referred to as the constellation Crux.
Constellations move; in fact many rise and set. They do not occupy 'one point' in the sky. The southern cross indicates the DIRECTION of south. Not a specific point. The whole point is the constellation moves but from wherever you stand in the southern hemiplane, wherever it is in the sky, it still indicates the direction of South when you apply the calculation.

I have been more than patient. This is going to go back and forth repeatedly because RErs can't be bothered to figure anything out and just dig their heels in exclaiming anything they don't understand as wrong.

May the learned read this thread and judge for themselves.

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markjo

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2013, 11:06:37 AM »
Constellations move; in fact many rise and set.
True, but irrelevant to the OP's question.

Quote
They do not occupy 'one point' in the sky.
Yes, they do.  At any given moment, Crux occupies 'one point' in the sky.  At certain times, 2 observers in different parts of Australia can face south and observe Crux at the same time.  Their lines of sight will converge on that 'one point' in the sky that Crux is occupying at that moment.  The question remains, how can those observers' lines of sight converge on Crux when the direction of south diverges?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Pythagoras

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Re: how can we see the Crux
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2013, 11:47:53 AM »
thork is being stubourn. he couldn't answer my 1st question so i simplify it and he still cant. says a lot relay. we will continue without him. interesting as well how he makes fun of my use of Microsoft paint. i thought it was helpful. a picture paints a thousand words and all.

i don't want this to derail the thread but a interesting point is at one point in time.

Crux was visible to the Ancient Greeks; Ptolemy regarded it as part of the constellation Centaurus.[8][9] It was entirely visible as far north as Britain in the fourth millennium BC. However, the precession of the equinoxes gradually lowered its stars below the European horizon, and they were eventually forgotten by the inhabitants of northern latitudes.[6] By AD 400, most of the constellation never rose above the horizon for Athenians.[citation needed]

so a second question could be is how over time does a dome with lights printed on it shift over time?