Space Tourism

The earth is flat. At the edge of the atmosphere one is looking down at a circle of light, and will thus see some slight curvature to the horizon.

I thought this was another spanner at first.

Anyway, if and when that sort of space travel becomes affordable, it may well be enough to change my opinion. I'm not so sure that a low-earth orbit would do the trick anyway.

The earth is flat. At the edge of the atmosphere one is looking down at a circle of light, and will thus see some slight curvature to the horizon.

The earth is flat. At the edge of the atmosphere one is looking down at a circle of light, and will thus see some slight curvature to the horizon.

I have seen this first hand about fifteen years ago on a connection flight from Orlando, CA to San Jose. I watched the sun set while we were on the ground, and then watched it rise and set again after we departed.
This is simply a perspective effect. The higher the observer, the farther the horizon recedes.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on September 12, 2012, 07:20:46 AM

The earth is flat. At the edge of the atmosphere one is looking down at a circle of light, and will thus see some slight curvature to the horizon.

There's still the shape of the continents that has to be taken into account. Also, you could just cross reference images of the Earth from multiple different areas from low earth orbit. The shape of the continents will make it apparent whether or not the Earth is a disc or sphere.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on September 12, 2012, 07:20:46 AM

The earth is flat. At the edge of the atmosphere one is looking down at a circle of light, and will thus see some slight curvature to the horizon.

So what happens if you can't see the whole circle of light?

Or you can't see the lights of a city?

I mean, if you go up where you can see the edge of the circle of light, shouldn't you be able to see every part of the world that's in daylight?  That IS what the edge means right?

These debates about the edge of space and "circle of light" are getting tedious.

Quote from: Lorddave on September 12, 2012, 06:20:22 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on September 12, 2012, 07:20:46 AM

The earth is flat. At the edge of the atmosphere one is looking down at a circle of light, and will thus see some slight curvature to the horizon.

So what happens if you can't see the whole circle of light?

You would assume that night is approaching and think nothing of it.

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Or you can't see the lights of a city?

You won't see the lights of the city for the same reason you don't see the stars. The light reflected off of the earth is intense and washes out lesser light sources.

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I mean, if you go up where you can see the edge of the circle of light, shouldn't you be able to see every part of the world that's in daylight?  That IS what the edge means right?

Look at the above MIT picture from near-space. At the edge of the atmosphere the view of the distance is hazy with the thickness of the atmosphere. If you are saying that you should be able make out individual continents tens of thousands of miles away which have been shrunken into the horizon by perspective, then you are mistaken. At the edge of the atmosphere you are still looking across tens of thousands of miles when you look horizontally across the earth, and therefore things will be quite small and hard to make out.

Quote from: ThinkingMan on September 13, 2012, 06:09:21 AM

These debates about the edge of space and "circle of light" are getting tedious.

I don't find truth tedious.

It's a perfect arc of a circle, Tom.  Check your prescription.

Then I'd expect to see a much larger circle and signs of the sunset line. You know like a gradual fade to red or orange.

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You won't see the lights of the city for the same reason you don't see the stars. The light reflected off of the earth is intense and washes out lesser light sources.

Even from the dark part? Are you saying that one bright area is able to cancel out light from a dark area?

5,000 miles away actually. And yes I am.

The circumfrance of the earth is less than 25,000 miles. If half of it is lit at all times then only about 12,500 miles are lit. If the sun is the center of that circle of light then the sun's rays beam out with a radius of 6,250 miles.

Also, if you claim that the atmosphere is able to block out visible light reflecting off the surface from only a few thousand miles, then how can you see the circle of light's edge? Wouldn't the atmosphere block that as well?

Quote from: Tom Bishop on September 13, 2012, 02:46:18 PM

Quote from: ThinkingMan on September 13, 2012, 06:09:21 AM

These debates about the edge of space and "circle of light" are getting tedious.

I don't find truth tedious.

I find hearing the same fallacious reasoning tedious. Garygreen may or may not have gotten banned for disagreeing with you, but I applaud his continuous effort. I wont do it. There's no point.

Quote from: Lorddave

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You won't see the lights of the city for the same reason you don't see the stars. The light reflected off of the earth is intense and washes out lesser light sources.

Even from the dark part? Are you saying that one bright area is able to cancel out light from a dark area?

Yes. The people who flew on the Concord at near-space all agree that the stars cannot be seen at such heights. The brightness of the earth prevents the stars from being seen.

I would hardly call 60,000 feet the edge of space. That's less than 4 miles higher than a standard airliner's cruising altitude.

Quote from: ThinkingMan on September 14, 2012, 08:37:29 AM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on September 14, 2012, 08:02:50 AM

Quote from: Lorddave

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You won't see the lights of the city for the same reason you don't see the stars. The light reflected off of the earth is intense and washes out lesser light sources.

Even from the dark part? Are you saying that one bright area is able to cancel out light from a dark area?

Yes. The people who flew on the Concord at near-space all agree that the stars cannot be seen at such heights. The brightness of the earth prevents the stars from being seen.

I would hardly call 60,000 feet the edge of space. That's less than 4 miles higher than a standard airliner's cruising altitude.

On Wikipedia we read that 90% of the atmosphere by mass is below an altitude of 16 km (53493 feet).

That doesn't mean they're at the edge of space 8,000 feet higher. The space station, which orbits at ~450km suffers from atmospheric drag. Not very much, but some. No one really knows where exactly it ends. The edge of space is considered to be somewhere around 100-200,000 feet. In orbital manned craft, the atmosphere is negligible for short term trips at over 120km, which is ~396,000 feet. So 60,000 feet is not the edge of space.

Quote from: ThinkingMan on September 14, 2012, 10:09:01 AM

That doesn't mean they're at the edge of space 8,000 feet higher. The space station, which orbits at ~450km suffers from atmospheric drag. Not very much, but some. No one really knows where exactly it ends. The edge of space is considered to be somewhere around 100-200,000 feet. In orbital manned craft, the atmosphere is negligible for short term trips at over 120km, which is ~396,000 feet. So 60,000 feet is not the edge of space.

Since NASA is a fraud, why should we care what they say about space?

I say that since a craft at 60,000 feet is above the vast majority of the atmosphere it is therefore near space.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on September 14, 2012, 10:12:25 AM

Quote from: ThinkingMan on September 14, 2012, 10:09:01 AM

That doesn't mean they're at the edge of space 8,000 feet higher. The space station, which orbits at ~450km suffers from atmospheric drag. Not very much, but some. No one really knows where exactly it ends. The edge of space is considered to be somewhere around 100-200,000 feet. In orbital manned craft, the atmosphere is negligible for short term trips at over 120km, which is ~396,000 feet. So 60,000 feet is not the edge of space.

Since NASA is a fraud, why should we care what they say about space?

I say that since a craft at 60,000 feet is above the vast majority of the atmosphere it is therefore near space.

Saying something does not make it true Tom. Craft have flown higher and not been in space, and their wings have also been able to produce lift at higher altitudes. If something flies at 100,000 feet and is not in space, how exactly is 60,000 feet (60% as high) the edge of space?

Some people (including the FAI in some of their publications) also use the expression "edge of space" to refer to a region below the conventional 100 km boundary to space, which is often meant to include substantially lower regions as well. Thus, certain balloon or airplane flights might be described as "reaching the edge of space". In such statements, "reaching the edge of space" merely refers to going higher than average aeronautical vehicles commonly would