Venus passing in front of the Sun

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Venus passing in front of the Sun
« on: May 29, 2012, 08:41:59 AM »
Watch out on June the 5th, Venus transiting in front of the Sun.

I wonder how that fits in FET?
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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squevil

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Rushy

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Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2012, 09:31:16 AM »
Are you really trying to disprove FET via a small dot on the Sun?

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squevil

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Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2012, 09:33:23 AM »
irush it is venus if you like it or not. its been tracked for 100s of years and is one of the most visible bodies in the sky.
dont just use the fingers in the ears bla bla bla answer. go back to the bottom feeders or try some intelegent debate

Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2012, 09:43:39 AM »
Irush is right, Venus is a very insignificant object according to the FAQ.
This can be determined by its transit. 

The sun and the moon arent always exactly at a fixed height, and sometimes venus (as is mercury) lower than the sun. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Venustransit_2004-06-08_07-49.jpg

this tiny black dot against a 32 Mile Sun making venus no bigger than .25 Miles.

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squevil

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Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2012, 09:59:52 AM »
Irush is right, Venus is a very insignificant object according to the FAQ.
This can be determined by its transit. 

The sun and the moon arent always exactly at a fixed height, and sometimes venus (as is mercury) lower than the sun. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Venustransit_2004-06-08_07-49.jpg

this tiny black dot against a 32 Mile Sun making venus no bigger than .25 Miles.

nasa and russian probes got it wrong again then? you never did reply to my picture from the mars rover... wonder why

Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2012, 01:31:12 PM »
This begs the question: what size is Venus, which distance from the Sun? In FET, of course.

How does FET predict Venus' transit?
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2012, 04:28:05 PM »
This begs the question: what size is Venus, which distance from the Sun? In FET, of course.

Pretty small.

Quote
How does FET predict Venus' transit?

Prediction of astronomical events isn't specific to any word model.

Astronomers can predict the Transit of Venus because, like eclipses, it is an event which recurs in the sky periodically.  One can look at historic timetables of past events to predict the next one. This is how the Ancient Babylonians predicted astronomical events, how the Ancient Greeks predicted astronomical events, and how they are predicted today. The bulk of astronomical prediction consists of analyzing previous occurrences to predict the next.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 04:35:36 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2012, 04:50:51 PM »
Astronomers can predict the Transit of Venus and the eclipses because they are events which recur in the sky periodically.  One can look at historic timetables of past events to predict the next one. This is how the Ancient Babylonians predicted them, how the Ancient Greeks predicted them, and how they are predicted today.

Where did you get the idea that the Babylonians and the Greeks were aware of Venusian transits?

Fewer than 100 transits have taken place since the beginning of recorded history.  The number is close to 50, actually.  The first one wasn't recorded until the 17th century; the only reason anyone ever thought to look is that Kepler predicted it using his elliptical planetary models.  The first observers had no prior pattern of transits of Venus to reference.
Also, the people on your websites are specifically framing their claims, not to learn the truth of the matter, but because they want to "debunk" Apollo Hoax claims --

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squevil

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Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2012, 05:04:58 PM »
doesnt it pass the sun every 8 years?...

anyway tom you never answered my post about the same subject.

how is it that ENaG says the sun and the moon are at 3000 miles and the rest is 3100, yet venus pops down every 8 years. i went into further detail on the flat earth side of the story. however as my posts arnt digs at the fes or trivial they tend to get ignored for the best part

Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2012, 05:21:27 PM »
doesnt it pass the sun every 8 years?...

No.
Also, the people on your websites are specifically framing their claims, not to learn the truth of the matter, but because they want to "debunk" Apollo Hoax claims --

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markjo

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Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2012, 05:23:46 PM »
doesnt it pass the sun every 8 years?...

Passing the sun is not the same as transiting the sun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_of_Venus
Quote
Transits of Venus are among the rarest of predictable astronomical phenomena. They occur in a pattern that repeats every 243 years, with pairs of transits eight years apart separated by long gaps of 121.5 years and 105.5 years.

Also, for Tom:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_of_Venus#Ancient_and_medieval_history
Quote
Ancient Indian, Greek, Egyptian, Babylonian and Chinese observers knew of Venus and recorded the planet's motions. The early Greeks thought that the evening and morning appearances of Venus represented two different objects—Hesperus the evening star and Phosphorus the morning star.[10] Pythagoras is credited with realizing they were the same planet. There is no evidence that any of these cultures knew of the transits. Venus was important to ancient American civilizations, in particular for the Maya, who called it Noh Ek, "the Great Star" or Xux Ek, "the Wasp Star";[11] they embodied Venus in the form of the god Kukulkán (also known as or related to Gukumatz and Quetzalcoatl in other parts of Mexico). In the Dresden Codex, the Maya charted Venus' full cycle, but despite their precise knowledge of its course, there is no mention of the transit.[12]
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2012, 08:37:12 PM »
I did not say that the Babylonians and Greeks were aware of the Transit of Venus. Please read my post again.

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markjo

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Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2012, 08:38:36 PM »
I did not say that the Babylonians and Greeks were aware of the Transit of Venus.

Then why did you bring them up as if they were relevant?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2012, 08:39:42 PM »
I did not say that the Babylonians and Greeks were aware of the Transit of Venus.

Then why did you bring them up as if they were relevant?

They're relevant because they championed the method of astronomical prediction used today: pattern analysis based on historic events.

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markjo

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Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2012, 09:19:19 PM »
I did not say that the Babylonians and Greeks were aware of the Transit of Venus.

Then why did you bring them up as if they were relevant?

They're relevant because they championed the method of astronomical prediction used today: pattern analysis based on historic events.

But there was no historical record of transits of Venus before Kepler predicted the 1631 transit.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2012, 10:18:39 PM »
I did not say that the Babylonians and Greeks were aware of the Transit of Venus.

Then why did you bring them up as if they were relevant?

They're relevant because they championed the method of astronomical prediction used today: pattern analysis based on historic events.

This is patently false.  No one suspected the existence of transits until Kepler predicted them.  His predictions were not based on any previous observations of Venusian transits.  His predictions were based on the mathematics of elliptical orbits, and they were independently confirmed.  Yes, tables of astronomical data were used to derive the mathematics, but those tables alone are totally insufficient for making accurate astronomical predictions.  The very reason for Kepler's investigations was that astronomers at the time had great difficulty predicting many astronomical events with much accuracy, like the location of Mercury.

What you're describing simply isn't possible.  Many objects in the sky do not come back to the exact same location according to a regular pattern.  The fact that modern astronomy is able to predict not only when something like a transit will occur, but also where on Earth it will be visible, is an exquisite verification of a spherical Earth.

Oh, and here are the modern mathematics from which modern astronomical tables (called ephemerides) are constructed.
Also, the people on your websites are specifically framing their claims, not to learn the truth of the matter, but because they want to "debunk" Apollo Hoax claims --

Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2012, 12:21:04 AM »
This begs the question: what size is Venus, which distance from the Sun? In FET, of course.

Pretty small.

Quote
How does FET predict Venus' transit?

Prediction of astronomical events isn't specific to any word model.

Astronomers can predict the Transit of Venus because, like eclipses, it is an event which recurs in the sky periodically.  One can look at historic timetables of past events to predict the next one. This is how the Ancient Babylonians predicted astronomical events, how the Ancient Greeks predicted astronomical events, and how they are predicted today. The bulk of astronomical prediction consists of analyzing previous occurrences to predict the next.

1) Pure hard FE science! I expected no less from you, Tom.
2) How can FET predict Venus transit (not RE astronomists)?
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2012, 01:27:31 AM »
I did not say that the Babylonians and Greeks were aware of the Transit of Venus.

Then why did you bring them up as if they were relevant?

They're relevant because they championed the method of astronomical prediction used today: pattern analysis based on historic events.

But there was no historical record of transits of Venus before Kepler predicted the 1631 transit.

In the 1600's special tinted lenses were popularized which allowed astronomers to look at the sun with less glare. Kepler and his associated could see Venus move nearer to the sun with every pass. Based on those historical observations of Venus moving nearer to the sun he predicted that it would eventually transit the sun. That's how it was predicted.

Quote from: garygreen
This is patently false.  No one suspected the existence of transits until Kepler predicted them.  His predictions were not based on any previous observations of Venusian transits.

They were predicted based on a historical record of Venus' movements, as explained.

Quote from: EmperorZhark
How can FET predict Venus transit (not RE astronomists)?

Historical patterns. It's not model specific. The predictions are applicable to both models of the earth.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 01:34:07 AM by Tom Bishop »

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squevil

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Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2012, 04:48:05 AM »
yeh i was ignored by tom again. whats your problem? im a simpleton making simple observations. yet you ignore me all the time. im only pointing out flaws in your 'bible'

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markjo

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Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2012, 05:30:04 AM »
In the 1600's special tinted lenses were popularized which allowed astronomers to look at the sun with less glare. Kepler and his associated could see Venus move nearer to the sun with every pass. Based on those historical observations of Venus moving nearer to the sun he predicted that it would eventually transit the sun. That's how it was predicted.

Citation please.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2012, 07:15:53 AM »
Why is no FE'ers answering the topic?

Like a planetary model explaining Venus transit, or Mercury transit.
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2012, 09:19:17 AM »
yeh i was ignored by tom again. whats your problem? im a simpleton making simple observations. yet you ignore me all the time. im only pointing out flaws in your 'bible'

Perhaps if you improve your grammar you won't be so quickly dismissed.

In the 1600's special tinted lenses were popularized which allowed astronomers to look at the sun with less glare. Kepler and his associated could see Venus move nearer to the sun with every pass. Based on those historical observations of Venus moving nearer to the sun he predicted that it would eventually transit the sun. That's how it was predicted.

Citation please.

From this page we read that Kepler predicts the Transit of Venus in a work called Rudolphine Tables

Quote
In 1629, as Kepler was preparing a set of astronomical ephemerides for the years 1629 to 1636, based on his new laws of planetary motion published in his Rudolphine Tables (Ulm, 1627), he noted that a transit of Mercury would take place on 7 November 1631 and a transit of Venus on 6 December of the same year. Although his calculations indicated that the latter transit would best be visible from the American continent, he cautioned European astronomers in his pamphlet De raris mirisque Anni 1631 (Leipzig, 1629) to be watchful as well.

Looking up the Rudolphine Tables on Wikipedia:

Quote
The Rudolphine Tables (Latin: Tabulae Rudolphinae) consist of a star catalogue and planetary tables published by Johannes Kepler in 1627, using some observation data collected by Tycho Brahe (1546-1601). The tables are named as "Rudolphine" in memory of Rudolf II, Holy Roman Emperor.

So as we can see, it's a big historical table of past events, just as the Ancient Greeks and Babylonians had. Like lunar eclipses, the movements of the planets, and most everything else in astronomy, the Transit of Venus prediction was predicted based on analysis of previous events.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 09:45:58 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2012, 09:25:29 AM »
yeh i was ignored by tom again. whats your problem? im a simpleton making simple observations. yet you ignore me all the time. im only pointing out flaws in your 'bible'

Perhaps if you improve your grammar, you won't be so quickly dismissed.

In the 1600's special tinted lenses were popularized which allowed astronomers to look at the sun with less glare. Kepler and his associated could see Venus move nearer to the sun with every pass. Based on those historical observations of Venus moving nearer to the sun he predicted that it would eventually transit the sun. That's how it was predicted.

Citation please.

From this page we read that Kepler predicts the Transit of Venus in a work called Rudolphine Tables

Quote
"In 1629, as Kepler was preparing a set of astronomical ephemerides for the years 1629 to 1636, based on his new laws of planetary motion published in his Rudolphine Tables (Ulm, 1627), he noted that a transit of Mercury would take place on 7 November 1631 and a transit of Venus on 6 December of the same year. Although his calculations indicated that the latter transit would best be visible from the American continent, he cautioned European astronomers in his pamphlet De raris mirisque Anni 1631 (Leipzig, 1629) to be watchful as well."

Looking up the Rudolphine Tables on Wikipedia:

Quote
The Rudolphine Tables (Latin: Tabulae Rudolphinae) consist of a star catalogue and planetary tables published by Johannes Kepler in 1627, using some observation data collected by Tycho Brahe (1546-1601). The tables are named as "Rudolphine" in memory of Rudolf II, Holy Roman Emperor.

So as we can see, it's a big historical table of past events, just as the Ancient Greeks and Babylonians had. Like eclipses, the movements of the planets, et all, the Transit of Venus prediction was predicted based on analysis of previous events.

Why is no FE'ers answering the topic?

Like a planetary model explaining Venus transit, or Mercury transit.
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

*

Tom Bishop

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Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2012, 09:30:11 AM »
Why is no FE'ers answering the topic?

Like a planetary model explaining Venus transit, or Mercury transit.

I already told you that the predictions are not RE specific. As they are derived from the analysis of previous events, predicted based on patterns in the sky and nothing else, Kepler's predictions are equally applicable to the Flat Earth or any other model of the earth.

Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2012, 09:38:13 AM »
Mercury and Venus are obviously much closer to the sun, so close that sometimes they are closer to the earth than the sun.  Mars never appears to do this so it never dips below the Sun.
You cant really call the gas giants planets, I believe thay are just failed stars.

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markjo

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Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2012, 09:54:05 AM »
From this page we read that Kepler predicts the Transit of Venus in a work called Rudolphine Tables

Quote
In 1629, as Kepler was preparing a set of astronomical ephemerides for the years 1629 to 1636, based on his new laws of planetary motion published in his Rudolphine Tables (Ulm, 1627), he noted that a transit of Mercury would take place on 7 November 1631 and a transit of Venus on 6 December of the same year. Although his calculations indicated that the latter transit would best be visible from the American continent, he cautioned European astronomers in his pamphlet De raris mirisque Anni 1631 (Leipzig, 1629) to be watchful as well.

Yes, tables that Kepler generated based on his own laws of planetary motion.

Quote
Looking up the Rudolphine Tables on Wikipedia:

Quote
The Rudolphine Tables (Latin: Tabulae Rudolphinae) consist of a star catalogue and planetary tables published by Johannes Kepler in 1627, using some observation data collected by Tycho Brahe (1546-1601). The tables are named as "Rudolphine" in memory of Rudolf II, Holy Roman Emperor.

So as we can see, it's a big historical table of past events, just as the Ancient Greeks and Babylonians had. Like lunar eclipses, the movements of the planets, and most everything else in astronomy, the Transit of Venus prediction was predicted based on analysis of previous events.

I think that you sipped over this part:
Quote
Previous tables
Star tables had been produced for many centuries and were used to establish the position of the planets relative to the fixed stars (particularly the twelve constellations used in astrology) on a specific date in order to construct horoscopes. Until the end of the 16th century, the most widely used had been the Alphonsine tables, first produced in the 13th century and regularly updated thereafter. These were based on a Ptolemeic, geocentric model of the solar system. Although the Alphonsine tables were not very accurate, nothing else was available and so they continued to be used.
Previous tables were not accurate enough to predict transits of Venus or Mercury which is why they were never observed before Kepler predicted them.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 09:55:38 AM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2012, 10:15:48 AM »
Quote from: markjo
Yes, tables that Kepler generated based on his own laws of planetary motion.

It says multiple times on the Wikipedia page that they were based on observations.

Quote from: markjo
I think that you sipped over this part:
Quote
Previous tables
Star tables had been produced for many centuries and were used to establish the position of the planets relative to the fixed stars (particularly the twelve constellations used in astrology) on a specific date in order to construct horoscopes. Until the end of the 16th century, the most widely used had been the Alphonsine tables, first produced in the 13th century and regularly updated thereafter. These were based on a Ptolemeic, geocentric model of the solar system. Although the Alphonsine tables were not very accurate, nothing else was available and so they continued to be used.
Previous tables were not accurate enough to predict transits of Venus or Mercury which is why they were never observed before Kepler predicted them.

Those earlier 13th century astronomers did not use more modern methods to create their tables. They couldn't record events near to the sun because the sun blotted everything out. This is also why the Ancient Greeks and Babylonians never predicted the Transit of Venus. The special tinted lenses and darkroom projection methods were not used.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 10:41:24 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2012, 10:29:49 AM »
Why is no FE'ers answering the topic?

Like a planetary model explaining Venus transit, or Mercury transit.

I already told you that the predictions are not RE specific. As they are derived from the analysis of previous events, predicted based on patterns in the sky and nothing else, Kepler's predictions are equally applicable to the Flat Earth or any other model of the earth.

Predictions are based on calculations, so how do you manage that in FET?
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Venus passing in front of the Sun
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2012, 10:36:51 AM »
Why is no FE'ers answering the topic?

Like a planetary model explaining Venus transit, or Mercury transit.

I already told you that the predictions are not RE specific. As they are derived from the analysis of previous events, predicted based on patterns in the sky and nothing else, Kepler's predictions are equally applicable to the Flat Earth or any other model of the earth.

Predictions are based on calculations, so how do you manage that in FET?

They are based on observations. See my previous post above.