Poll

What is the source of the FES map in the FAQ?

FES
13 (38.2%)
Elsewhere
21 (61.8%)

Total Members Voted: 31

The source of FES's map

  • 220 Replies
  • 58642 Views
?

Thork

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2012, 01:18:06 PM »
People are just not going to believe in a conspiracy, it is so huge they just won't believe it. It seems like it almost takes an act of God to see what is going on in the world. It is like"Men in Black" movie.
Tom Bishop is our Tommy Lee Jones, Irushwithscvs is his apprentice Will Smith, cos he's still learning and cos he's black. I'm one of the aliens mooching through the airport with duty free cigarettes and Wilmore is the talking dog.

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2012, 01:35:26 PM »
People are just not going to believe in a conspiracy, it is so huge they just won't believe it. It seems like it almost takes an act of God to see what is going on in the world. It is like"Men in Black" movie.

It's so huge that it CANNOT exist.
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

?

Thork

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2012, 01:50:38 PM »
People are just not going to believe in a conspiracy, it is so huge they just won't believe it. It seems like it almost takes an act of God to see what is going on in the world. It is like"Men in Black" movie.

It's so huge that it CANNOT exist.
Now you are just speculating. Kindly refrain from rubbishing this society with idle musings.

?

OrbisNonSufficit

  • 3124
  • I love Gasoline.
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2012, 03:08:57 PM »
People are just not going to believe in a conspiracy, it is so huge they just won't believe it. It seems like it almost takes an act of God to see what is going on in the world. It is like"Men in Black" movie.

It's so huge that it CANNOT exist.
Now you are just speculating. Kindly refrain from rubbishing this society with idle musings.

"NO SPECULATING ABOUT CONSPIRACIES!" - Thork

 Got it Thork, thanks for the sound reasoning there.  I am sure you are not a troll. . .

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2012, 04:05:39 PM »
People are just not going to believe in a conspiracy, it is so huge they just won't believe it. It seems like it almost takes an act of God to see what is going on in the world. It is like"Men in Black" movie.

It's so huge that it CANNOT exist.
Now you are just speculating. Kindly refrain from rubbishing this society with idle musings.

I'm not the one speculating about a conspiracy... I happen to know there's none.
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

*

zarg

  • 1181
  • Saudi Arabian inventor of Dr. Pepper
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2012, 04:22:28 PM »
If we're going to talk about conspiracies here, can we at least confine it to whether the creation of the azimuthal equidistant projection was a conspiracy to plagiarize and discredit FES? Thork's post about DARPA and illuminati came out of left field; he hasn't even answered my question yet.
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2012, 03:12:46 AM »
Well you tell me...

Flat Earth society logo:




United Nations logo:



And what you Round Earthers are trying to shove down our throats:



Gotta FE map that really WORKS? Be my guest!
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2012, 05:52:16 AM »
Well you tell me...

Flat Earth society logo:




United Nations logo:



And what you Round Earthers are trying to shove down our throats:







According to the bible the only map that has four corners is the last one.

*

zarg

  • 1181
  • Saudi Arabian inventor of Dr. Pepper
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2012, 10:39:46 PM »
Alright, so apparently at least 3 others besides Tom Bishop claim that the map originates from the FES. Interesting. Who created it? How did it come about? Tom Bishop posted a similar map; is he the mystery designer, perhaps?

Well, actually, with the help of another user here, I was able to find the tools used to create these maps:

So, here we have the map created by James Hastings-Trew:



(full size)


And, when loaded into GProjector and re-projected as azimuthal equidistant, we get an exact replica of the "Flat Earth" map:



(full size)


Tweaking the variables a little, we get the version posted by Tom:



(full size)


Care to explain, anyone?

By the way, James Hastings-Trew is clearly not a member of the Flat Earth Society. If this is your map, why don't you file a copyright dispute against him?
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

?

canofpepsi

  • 164
  • oh gee i wonder
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2012, 04:18:10 AM »
How does the method in which these particular renderings of the maps were created affect the fact that they were created by FES members?

How did you establish that James Hastings-Trew is not and was not a member of FES?

Thanks for the cool tool. It's fun to play with. I particularly like the Bacon Globular projection, because of the name.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 04:44:45 AM by canofpepsi »

?

Cat Earth Theory

  • 1614
  • I practise the Zetetic Method!
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2012, 10:50:34 AM »
Except map-makers were using the projection hundreds of years before Rowobotham and the FES.



This is a map by Louis de Mayerne Turquet, made in 1648.  He wasn't a flat-earther, this was specifically a way of mapping the globe of the earth.

http://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/24149?view=print
If you focus on the cloud, and conceive of it just as you would a dream you are trying to interpret, with practice its meanings and memories will be revealed to you.

*

zarg

  • 1181
  • Saudi Arabian inventor of Dr. Pepper
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2012, 06:07:17 PM »
How does the method in which these particular renderings of the maps were created affect the fact that they were created by FES members?

The method by which they were created is the whole point.  You evidently have not been following this thread:

Tom claimed that the map in the FAQ was not produced by -- nor based on something produced by -- the formula which produces a map that looks exactly like it. Rather, they invented it from scratch on their own, and then after it already existed, Round Earthers cleverly devised a formula to transform the globe into that configuration.
The map and the formula is based on the original flat earth map.
Yes, that's correct.



How did you establish that James Hastings-Trew is not and was not a member of FES?

If you had bothered to refer to the sources I provided, you would not be asking this question for any reason other than to troll. Look at his website.
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

?

canofpepsi

  • 164
  • oh gee i wonder
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2012, 09:18:50 AM »
The method by which they were created is the whole point.
No, the method in which this particular image has been produced has nothing to do with it. Tom's original claim was regarding Voliva's map (Judging by the fact that he posted a picture of it in the link provided in the OP), which is not the map from the FAQ. The map from the FAQ just happens to be a re-rendering of the original map, and it may have been generated in numerous ways. Quite possibly in a way similar to what you've described.

Generally, what you've done here is you decided to be wilfully obtuse (I'm following your own definition of this term here) and misinterpret what Tom said. What he did say is: "We came up with the map and we don't care if someone else created a formula that lets you obtain a similar map." In other words, I CAN fire up an IDE of my choice and write an application that will generate a brand new animation of nyan cat, but that doesn't make me the creator of nyan cat. It's an incredibly simple concept

How did you establish that James Hastings-Trew is not and was not a member of FES?

If you had bothered to refer to the sources I provided, you would not be asking this question for any reason other than to troll. Look at his website.
I had bothered to do that. His website (including, but not limited to the web page you have linked us to) contains absolutely no mention of FES, his allegiance to FES or lack thereof, be that in the present, past, or even the future. To make this simpler: You have absolutely no reason to speculate that he is, or is not, a member of FES.

P.S. The quotes you have provided are taken out of context and distort the conversation massively. Please refrain from being dishonest in the future - it won't work.

EDIT:
So you're saying Rowbotham invented the azimuthal equidistant projection?
No. Look closely:

Rowbotham:


The azimuthal equidistant projection:
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 09:25:33 AM by canofpepsi »

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17796
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2012, 09:29:09 AM »
Except map-makers were using the projection hundreds of years before Rowobotham and the FES.

http://i50.tinypic.com/t8opqc.jpg

This is a map by Louis de Mayerne Turquet, made in 1648.  He wasn't a flat-earther, this was specifically a way of mapping the globe of the earth.

http://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/24149?view=print

Firstly, that's a northern azimuthal projection, but it's not the map we use.

Secondly, I question how a map purported to be from the mid 1600's depicts Antarctica when it wasn't even discovered until the mid 1800's. This seems especially fishy.

Thirdly, the illustrator of that map probably IS a Flat Earther. He has the four angles of the winds stationed at the four corners of the earth, exactly as described in the biblical flat earth model.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 09:36:20 AM by Tom Bishop »

?

canofpepsi

  • 164
  • oh gee i wonder
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2012, 09:34:36 AM »
To further support my point, I have superimposed Rowbotham's map on top of Cat Earth's Theory picture of the azimuthal equidistant projection.



Similar? Maybe, if you're not paying attention. Identical? Well, nope.

?

Cat Earth Theory

  • 1614
  • I practise the Zetetic Method!
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2012, 09:35:10 AM »
Except map-makers were using the projection hundreds of years before Rowobotham and the FES.

http://i50.tinypic.com/t8opqc.jpg

This is a map by Louis de Mayerne Turquet, made in 1648.  He wasn't a flat-earther, this was specifically a way of mapping the globe of the earth.

http://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/24149?view=print

Firstly, that's a northern azimuthal projection, but it's not the map we use.

Obviously, just as the map used by the UN isn't Rowbotham's.

Secondly, I question how a map from the mid 1600's depicts Antarctica when it wasn't even discovered until the mid 1800's.

No, so wrong.  You'll notice it's quite hazy down there, and that what we now know is Australia appears to be part of Antarctica.  There hadn't been any expeditions but there was awareness of a southern continent.

Thirdly, the illustrator of that map probably IS a Flat Earther. He has the four angles of the winds stationed at the four corners of the earth, exactly as described int he biblical flat earth model.

You could speculate wildly, or you could actually click on the link and see the title is La Nouvelle maniere de representer le Globe terrestre.

Don't let facts get in the way of your beliefs, though.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 09:39:53 AM by Cat Earth Theory »
If you focus on the cloud, and conceive of it just as you would a dream you are trying to interpret, with practice its meanings and memories will be revealed to you.

?

canofpepsi

  • 164
  • oh gee i wonder
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2012, 09:40:59 AM »
Secondly, I question how a map from the mid 1600's depicts Antarctica when it wasn't even discovered until the mid 1800's.

No, so wrong.
Well, it was 1773, which is still considerably later than 1648.

?

Cat Earth Theory

  • 1614
  • I practise the Zetetic Method!
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2012, 09:42:46 AM »
Secondly, I question how a map from the mid 1600's depicts Antarctica when it wasn't even discovered until the mid 1800's.

No, so wrong.
Well, it was 1773, which is still considerably later than 1648.

Read the edit.  As for the rest of your posts, they're obviously not the same exact map.  The claim has been made that the azimuthal equidistant projection is based on Rowbotham's map when it is in fact quite older.

Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_de_Castilla
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_Australis
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 09:46:27 AM by Cat Earth Theory »
If you focus on the cloud, and conceive of it just as you would a dream you are trying to interpret, with practice its meanings and memories will be revealed to you.

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17796
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2012, 09:50:46 AM »
Quote
Secondly, I question how a map from the mid 1600's depicts Antarctica when it wasn't even discovered until the mid 1800's.

No, so wrong.

Perhaps you should read up on your history.

http://www.south-pole.com/p0000052.htm

The Antarctic continent was not even seen until 1820.

1773 is the year James Cook crossed the Antarctic Circle.

Quote
Thirdly, the illustrator of that map probably IS a Flat Earther. He has the four angles of the winds stationed at the four corners of the earth, exactly as described int he biblical flat earth model.

You could speculate wildly, or you could actually click on the link and see the title is La Nouvelle maniere de representer le Globe terrestre.

Don't let facts get in the way of your beliefs, though.

But what does that mean in 1600's itallian? As far as we know it says "an alternative to the terrestrial globe."

The four angles at the four corners of the earth clearly suggests that this is a flat earth map.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 09:54:06 AM by Tom Bishop »

?

Cat Earth Theory

  • 1614
  • I practise the Zetetic Method!
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2012, 09:57:25 AM »
Perhaps you should read up on your history.

http://www.south-pole.com/p0000052.htm

The Antarctic continent was not even seen until 1820.

1773 is the year James Cook crossed the Antarctic Circle.

Irrelevant, considering "antarctica" extends into the tropics.  It clearly wasn't drawn with solid information.

But what does that mean in 1600's itallian? As far as we know it says "an alternative to the terrestrial globe."

The four angles at the four corners of the earth clearly suggests that this is a flat earth map.

...

First, it's French.  Second, it roughly means new manner for representing the terrestrial globe.  This isn't moon speak, Tom.  I know the depths of your laziness know no bounds but you could exert even a small amount of effort.
If you focus on the cloud, and conceive of it just as you would a dream you are trying to interpret, with practice its meanings and memories will be revealed to you.

?

canofpepsi

  • 164
  • oh gee i wonder
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2012, 12:15:24 PM »
Read the edit.  As for the rest of your posts, they're obviously not the same exact map.  The claim has been made that the azimuthal equidistant projection is based on Rowbotham's map when it is in fact quite older.
If that's what has been claimed, I am not going to defend it. That would be a silly thing to do.

However, reading through Tom's post, he seems to claim that the azimuthal equidistant projection was developed independently from Rowbotham's map.

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2012, 03:17:44 PM »
Why do FE'ers stick to this map or any RE map?

It is trying to transform a ball into a circle. It is impossible; the azimuthal equidistant projection is still a RE map, a projection of a sphere, it cannot be the representation of a flat surface.

And what's the use of latitudes on FE maps!?
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

*

zarg

  • 1181
  • Saudi Arabian inventor of Dr. Pepper
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2012, 07:25:05 PM »
Tom's original claim was regarding Voliva's map (Judging by the fact that he posted a picture of it in the link provided in the OP), which is not the map from the FAQ.

Actually, he did make a claim about the map in the FAQ, as well as many others, not just Voliva's, and not just Rowbotham's. I don't understand why you're pursuing this, as Tom has already had the opportunity to correct my interpretation of his claim and he instead confirmed it. Your speculation on that matter is moot.


The map from the FAQ just happens to be a re-rendering of the original map, and it may have been generated in numerous ways. Quite possibly in a way similar to what you've described.

... Except the exact opposite was claimed to be the case. I thought I spelled this out very plainly. Again, read closely:

Tom claimed that the map in the FAQ was not produced by -- nor based on something produced by -- the formula which produces a map that looks exactly like it. Rather, they invented it from scratch on their own, and then after it already existed, Round Earthers cleverly devised a formula to transform the globe into that configuration.
The map and the formula is based on the original flat earth map.
Yes, that's correct.


The quotes you have provided are taken out of context and distort the conversation massively.

This accusation is made without any support. Please show us how you came to a different conclusion from these quotes than what I'm presenting them as. I really don't see how you could have unless you didn't consider the whole context.


... I CAN fire up an IDE of my choice and write an application that will generate a brand new animation of nyan cat, but that doesn't make me the creator of nyan cat.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you seem to be paraphrasing this argument that Tom made:

I can make a mathematical formula to draw swastikas on graphic calculators. It doesn't mean that I invented the swastika.

Are you supporting the assertion that a formula could have been fabricated to produce an existing human-invented map layout, and it's just a coincidence that said design was a mathematically perfect representation of the globe in the first place? The nyan-cat comparison doesn't even come close to representing the ludicrousness of this claim.


I had bothered to do that. His website (including, but not limited to the web page you have linked us to) contains absolutely no mention of FES, his allegiance to FES or lack thereof, be that in the present, past, or even the future. To make this simpler: You have absolutely no reason to speculate that he is, or is not, a member of FES.

What?  ???  Are you serious? Yes, I do have a very strong reason to speculate that he doesn't subscribe to FET: How about the fact that the entire website is devoted to Round-Earth astronomy and geography? If you're playing devil's advocate, I'm afraid you're not very good at it.
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

*

zarg

  • 1181
  • Saudi Arabian inventor of Dr. Pepper
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2012, 07:44:36 PM »
And what's the use of latitudes on FE maps!?

I think they help Tom brainstorm plot devices for his made-up Flat Earth stories. For instance, he noticed that the lines on the equatorial aspect, shown here:



... bear some resemblance to magnetic field diagrams, like this one:



... which got the creative juices flowing and resulted in this quality bullshit:

The magnetic field lines blossom outwards from the North Pole as well as the South Pole. Imagine that the distorted longitude lines on the above map are magnetic field lines which the compass aligns with. In the North the compass will align with the field lines and take the user around the North Pole while traveling Eastwards or Westwards. Likewise, in the South the compass will align with the field lines and take the user around the South Pole while traveling Eastwards or Westwards.

Well, that's my guess anyway. :)
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

?

canofpepsi

  • 164
  • oh gee i wonder
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2012, 08:17:27 PM »
Tom claimed that the map in the FAQ was not produced by -- nor based on something produced by -- the formula which produces a map that looks exactly like it. Rather, they invented it from scratch on their own, and then after it already existed, Round Earthers cleverly devised a formula to transform the globe into that configuration.
The map and the formula is based on the original flat earth map.
Yes, that's correct.
Perhaps you've been reading too closely. Try moving your eyes away from the screen so that you can distinguish letters. You have posted people's quotes in a sequence that suggests they're replying to each other. They're not. You are attempting to shove distortion down our throats, even after I called you out on it. Clearly you do not wish to be taken seriously.

Are you supporting the assertion that a formula could have been fabricated to produce an existing human-invented map layout, and it's just a coincidence that said design was a mathematically perfect representation of the globe in the first place? The nyan-cat comparison doesn't even come close to representing the ludicrousness of this claim.
No, I have already shown that Rowbotham's map and RE'ers' azimuthal projections are different maps. Again, eyes farther from the screen so that you can actually see:



What?  ???  Are you serious? Yes, I do have a very strong reason to speculate that he doesn't subscribe to FET: How about the fact that the entire website is devoted to Round-Earth astronomy and geography? If you're playing devil's advocate, I'm afraid you're not very good at it.
I find it interesting that you found it possible that I'm playing devil's advocate, but haven't even stopped to consider the fact that the website's owner might too. Also, a member of the Flat Earth Society need not be a Flat Earther. See: http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49&Itemid=66
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 08:19:57 PM by canofpepsi »

?

Cat Earth Theory

  • 1614
  • I practise the Zetetic Method!
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2012, 08:24:32 PM »
The problem is that the map you identify as the "RE'ers' azimuthal projection" is claimed by Tom Bishop as originating with the FES and based on the basic idea of Rowbotham's map.  The same map is in the FAQ and wiki as a flat-earth map.  If you're arguing against anyone, it's Tom and not zarg.
If you focus on the cloud, and conceive of it just as you would a dream you are trying to interpret, with practice its meanings and memories will be revealed to you.

?

canofpepsi

  • 164
  • oh gee i wonder
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #56 on: May 03, 2012, 07:28:21 AM »
If you're arguing against anyone, it's Tom and not zarg.
I'm arguing against both of them, although much more so against zarg, because he tries to lie to people about what they said in this very thread.

*

zarg

  • 1181
  • Saudi Arabian inventor of Dr. Pepper
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2012, 11:05:59 PM »
Perhaps you've been reading too closely. Try moving your eyes away from the screen so that you can distinguish letters. You have posted people's quotes in a sequence that suggests they're replying to each other. They're not. You are attempting to shove distortion down our throats, even after I called you out on it. Clearly you do not wish to be taken seriously.

You're the only one denying the fact that the claim's been made. Unless you're prepared to answer this question clearly, please stop trolling this thread:

This accusation is made without any support. Please show us how you came to a different conclusion from these quotes than what I'm presenting them as.


No, I have already shown that Rowbotham's map and RE'ers' azimuthal projections are different maps.

Um, I know they're different. Tom is the one who's claiming that they are similar enough that Rowbotham gets credit for both.  I really don't understand why you're pointing out the fact that the two are different maps as if it's not something I'm already supporting. If I thought they were the same, what case would I have that Flat Earthers were not the original source? In fact, I even said the very same thing that you're saying in the original thread. Behold:

Read Earth Not a Globe, please. The same model was used 150 years ago.

I have, and this:



is not the same map at all.

To which Tom replied:

Yes it is. With the exception of Australia and New Zealand it's nearly exactly the same.

Are you still going to accuse me of not paying attention? ::)



I find it interesting that you found it possible that I'm playing devil's advocate, but haven't even stopped to consider the fact that the website's owner might too. Also, a member of the Flat Earth Society need not be a Flat Earther. See: http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49&Itemid=66

To whom might he be playing devil's advocate? He is not involved in a debate. He makes maps. Globular ones. That's pretty much the only data we have on the man. Now tell me: Based on this data, which speculation about his beliefs, RE vs FE, is most reasonable to presume?



If you're arguing against anyone, it's Tom and not zarg.
I'm arguing against both of them, although much more so against zarg, because he tries to lie to people about what they said in this very thread.

Oh, really? You're arguing against both me and Tom, are you? ;D So if I'm lying about Tom's stance, what stance of Tom's is it that you are arguing with? You can't have it both ways, my carbonated friend.
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

*

James

  • Flat Earther
  • The Elder Ones
  • 5613
Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2012, 02:58:49 AM »
These disputes over intellectual ownership are not useful - nobody owns these maps, they are representations of the actual Earth.  One can no more claim dominion over the idea or form of these maps than one can do for the Earth.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2012, 04:49:17 AM »
These disputes over intellectual ownership are not useful - nobody owns these maps, they are representations of the actual Earth.  One can no more claim dominion over the idea or form of these maps than one can do for the Earth.

It still remains to be proved that they are FE maps.
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.