What is the source of the FES map in the FAQ?

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The source of FES's map

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #210 on: November 18, 2015, 05:00:12 PM »
Accepting, at least for the sake of this discussion, that the Earth is flat, it should be noted that, for more than a century all sorts of highly technical and recondite arguments have been made to explain away the evidence of a round earth.  Yet, despite all that technical information being available, a reliable flat earth map has yet to appear.  It seems to me that IF the Earth is flat, then a world map which is also flat would be a breeze to draw and, moreover, it would not contain any distortions in representing an equally flat Earth.

Surely the Flat Earth societies can come up with a draftsman who can draw a Flat Earth map, without any of those convoluted math equations used to convert the curved surface to a flat page and without any distortions.  Howcome no such draftsman, or more importantly, no such map has ever materialized?  Lots of highly technical excuses to explain away the satellite photos and the view from the Empire State Building - but not even a low-tech floor plan of the world.

Another issue: The FE movement keeps describing the notion of a round earth as a hoax or fraud perpetuated by governments and important people.  It would be, probably, the one and only hoax that has continued for so long -- well over two thousand years (going back to some ancient Greeks and Romans), and in the last 7 or 8 centuries supported by virtually every government, every nationality, every ethnicity and political stripe.  Somehow the testimony supporting a round earth has come, in all those centuries, from mountain climbers, astronomers, balloonists, aircraft pilots and passengers, and even astronauts.  With not one reliable and persuasive witness to the contrary.  Even children aboard a jet plane; even old folks who were passengers.  Were all those people members of a conspiracy?  Were all these people paid off?  And not one attested to a flat earth for more than a dozen centuries. Many thousands of people, from just about every country and economic status.

By contrast the Watergate conspiracy involved only about 20 people and within 6 months most of them were ratting out the rest of them to the FBI, to Congressional committees, and to major newspapers.  But not the Round Earth hoax. 
Doesn't that seem awfully suspicious.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 10:58:39 PM by cartog »

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #211 on: November 19, 2015, 12:31:37 AM »
I like thorke's map with 2 saudi arabias
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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #212 on: December 19, 2015, 01:29:18 PM »
One very considerable problem.  FE advocates reject the distances measured by boats and planes (and other vehicles) ... especially when these measurements contradict FE theories.  For example, the Polar Azimuthal Equidistant map (the same as on the UN Flag) is a favorite with FEs, almost (but not quite) the official absolutely final FE description of the flat planet -- but the coastline of Antarctica on that map appears enormous, and the distances between the bottom tips of Africa and South America also enormous.  But boats, planes, even birds, have been able to travel along the entire coast of Antarctica, and/or between the tips of Africa and South America, and their measured distances (or even elapsed time measurements) show that the P.A.E. map is severely out of kilter in depicting those distances - and FEs must deny that result.  To do so, FEs come up with strange and wonderful explanations of how the measurements must be wrong, which tend to violate Newtonian laws of physics.

Also, if the flat earth resembles the P.A.E. map, how does the the daily cycles of daylight and darkness play out on a flat map with the North Pole in the center?  On a flat earth, it is difficult to explain how the sun lights up only half the earth - especially the particular configuration of the daylit half at any moment (which configuration can be documented not only by aerial photography but also by communications using telegraph and telephone and radio), especially if we think of the lit and dark halves of the earth cycling every day.

Another question, never quite answered even in this age of aviation and (if you believe it) space travel:  If the earth is flat, what's underneath it?  Is it that old old joke about "turtles all the way down"?  If the earth is flat on this side, could another side of be flat also - so that it's like a phonograph record or even a cube, with entirely different continents, and possibly very different living things on the other faces?  If so, why are "our" planets and stars always visible on "our" side - what planets and stars are visible from the other sides, and is there anything that actually travels around the whole?  If there is no "other side" then what is this flat earth resting on?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 11:05:30 AM by cartog »

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #213 on: May 10, 2016, 07:39:20 PM »
Ask again for a non-distorted FE map ignoring the fact that you don't have a non-distorted RET one either.

A page of paper is flat.  If the earth is as flat as a page of paper, then a map of the flat earth on a flat page of paper should have no distortions - it should merely be a reduction in scale, like a floor plan.  But I have not heard so much about a FE map without distortions as much as demands for a map showing something of the actual configuration of the true flat earth, even allowing for proportional problems.  The most popular FE map (the UN flag map) has the North Pole dead center and Antarctica spread all around the circumference and that seems less and less likely to be the actual layout of the flat earth.  So what most of us want is a flat map that more closely and more accurately depicts the layout of the flat earth.

Now the flat paper maps of the Round Earth most assuredly have distortions.  The flat paper depiction of the entire surface of anything spherical will have distortions.  Nobody denies that.  There are many different projections for flat paper maps of the round earth, each claiming different virtues (and weaknesses), such as accurate shapes of continents, accurate comparative sizes of countries, accurate directions or distances from/to specific locations, etc.

But the flat map of a flat earth should be much much easier to create.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 06:38:50 AM by cartog »

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #214 on: June 07, 2016, 06:48:35 AM »
The current unofficial FE map (the UN flag map), being the polar azimuthal equidistant map, has the North Pole dead center and Antarctica spread all the edge like a pie crust.  This bolsters the image and the story of some sort of ice wall that prevents people from exploring the edge of the flat earth - but neither the map nor the ice wall story is official FE data.  Nor, frankly, does it make sense when distances are measured or compared, either by fuel consumed, or by odometers, or by travel time.

Despite unofficial stories about Antarctica being off-limits, there have been aviators and even satellites that have viewed Antarctica and the images tend to confirm the National Geographic maps.
There have also been ships that have circumnavigated the entire coastline of Antarctica, and their mileage and fuel and time consumption show that Australia has nearly twice as much coastline as Antarctica.

The simple fact is that a flat earth should be, in the 21st century, with airplanes and such, relatively easy to map on flat paper .... and the fact that it hasn't tends to detract from the credibility of the FES.  Talking about vast conspiracies and cover-ups that somehow include just about every nation and civilization since antiquity won't do the trick any more.  It should not be impossible, nor even difficult for the FES to come up with an accurate flat map of the flat earth, showing where the edges really are.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 06:58:29 PM by cartog »



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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #215 on: June 08, 2016, 06:18:40 AM »
My understanding is the current map dates back to Rowbotham.
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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #216 on: June 08, 2016, 06:50:29 AM »
Samuel aint got shit.



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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #217 on: June 11, 2016, 07:01:56 PM »
Samuel aint got shit.
And what is that wonderful constructive statement supposed to convey.

         I forgot that jroa doesn't do "constructive"!

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #218 on: June 16, 2016, 06:02:21 AM »
Well you tell me...

Flat Earth society logo:

United Nations logo:

And what you Round Earthers are trying to shove down our throats:

So South america and Australia is pretty much directly opposite eachother ? Ive asked around but never gotten an explenation for how flights taking just 12 hours can occur given a flat earth. That one seems hard to find anything resonable on

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #219 on: June 29, 2016, 03:06:03 PM »
I figure the business about South America and Australia being "opposite" means being opposite on the Polar Azimuthal Equadistant (=PAE) map (the UN flag map).  I am not sure of the flight routes from South America to Australia but on a Round globe one might suppose they'd either cross over or skirt the Antarctic Circle to take a short route rather than go over the North Pole (actually, they don't do it quite that short because, among other things, there's a lack of emergency landing airports around the Antarctic Circle).  Using non-FE thinking, namely thinking of the earth as round, the enormous distance between South America and Australia on the UN flag map is the result only of the distortion of trying to depict a round earth on a flat page, and that distance does not exist in a round earth reality..  Using various flight time calculators, which were not always entirely congruent since some airlines or routes are not direct or involve the same airports or comparable jets, etc., Buenos Aires, Argentina to Sydney Australia flight takes 15 hr, JFK NY to Buenos Aires Arg. takes 12 hr,  Moscow Russia to Johannesburg South Africa takes 12 hr.  So the apparent distances/nearness on the PAE map doesn't work out the same in actual flight times and air distances.

I would like to call attention to an unpleasant pair of characters, Texe Marrs, a prolific shortwave/internet "preacher" with an ugly anti-semitic fixation, and Edward Hendrie, a lawyer who churns out books with anti-Catholic and anti-semitic theories.  Hendries has churned out a book, The Greatest Lie on Earth: Proof That Our World is Not a Moving Globe, arguing for (1) a flat earth of the UN flag configuration which (2) is the immobile center of the universe, and Marrs featured him on his weekly radio/internet broadcast and is helping sell his book.
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It's also been picked up by another notorious anti-semite, so I suppose a round earth is now regarded as Jewish in some way.

The particular bit of fakelore these guys are peddling as part of the UN flag map business is that Antarctica must be the outer edge of the Flat Earth and somehow ALL the govts of the world are blocking people from finding the edge by forbidding visitors to the South Pole, overflights, etc.  This story works - only as long as there have been ABSOLUTELY NO overflights or no circumnavigation of Antarctica.   But, no, there have been explorers, overflights, satellites over the South Pole,  and voyages around the coastline of Antarctica, etc., quite a lot of them.  It turns out that Antarctica has, first, been divvied up among various countries, not always amicably, and ostensibly for scientific research ....
.... and each research station gets understandably edgy about strangers, especially non-scientists, tramping through their research fields and maybe contaminating their stuff with stuff from other people's research fields.  Also, Antarctica, unlike the North Pole, doesn't have a native human population, and the only people there to stage a rescue are the scientists themselves, who really feel ill-prepared and disinclined to do this for tourists, and since the Antarctic environment and landscape is so very hostile, allowing marginally prepared tourists there is just begging to spend enormous amounts of time thereafter rescuing the same marginally prepared tourists.

Edward Hendrie (who is, believe it or not, a lawyer in the DEA and an expert on criminal evidence!) actually insists that the Earth is flat and immobile - in accordance with his very literal reading of the KJV Bible, that it is configured like that Polar Azimuthal Equidistant Projection map used in the UN flag {and, by the way, that particular projection, abbreviated PAE, goes back to maps showing only one hemisphere or less in the 16th century including one by Postel in 1581, and a world map by Jacques Cassini in 1691:  http://www.artwis.com/articles/all-the-world-within-a-circle-some-unusual-world-maps-on-a-single-polar-projection/3/ }, that the Antarctic ice walls are the edge of the Earth and the various govts are combining to prevent anyone from finding out. 

Further, since the Earth is unique in being both flat and immobile, the sun and all the stars and celestial bodies are spinning around the Earth, no matter how distant they may be, and somehow they always seem to be in the same positions relative to each other.  I will point out that, for a least a few decades in the 16th century there was the geocentric notion that while the Earth was round, and turned at 24 hour intervals, it was the center of the universe and the planets orbited around the Earth (this notion of a turning Earth as the center was associated with Tycho Brahe) - unlike Hendrie's notion that the Earth doesn't even turn and therefore even the sun and all the stars and planets are moving around the immoble Earth in a 24 hour cycle; astronomical calculations could be done with Brahe's theory - but they required incredibly cumbersome "corrections" that were not necessary when heliocentric calculations were made.  Hendrie offers no particular explanation what the Earth is resting on, what might be over the edge, etc.  Proof that you can go to a real college and then a real law school, and associate with other people who have done likewise, and still not quite understand why the Empire State Building observation deck can't see all the way to Europe. 

Hendrie supposes that the "fraud" of a round earth, revolving and rotating in space, is the work of a mostly Jewish conspiracy, which he dates back vaguely about 15 centuries (not supported by anything specifically astronomical, just his extremely bad attitude about Jews) ... except that the notion of a round earth goes back very much farther, and to civilizations that had no Jews, and to periods when Jews were very badly persecuted.  In The Geographical Lore of the Time of the Crusades by John Kirtland Wright (American Geographical Society, Research Series nr. 15, NY, 1925) page 15: "Nearly all scholars of antiquity after the fifth century before Christ thought that the earth was a globe."  - and he names several Greek and Roman scholars such as Aristotle and Pliny. (There are some clues that the  Chinese and Hindus may have tumbled to the realization of a round earth even earlier in history.)  Further, some ancient scholars were willing to accept the notion that the spherical earth was not immobile.  It is not at all clear what advantage comes to Jews, Catholics, Communists, or others for promoting the notion of a round and rotating earth, if false, and there are so many competing scientists and hostile ethnic groups in the world over the centuries that it seems impossible that every last one of them has been, not merely informed but entirely persuaded and convinced to continue the "round earth fraud" when exploding it could undoubtedly win them fame and fortune.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 07:44:54 AM by cartog »

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #220 on: August 24, 2016, 08:31:54 PM »
The Polar Azimuthal Equidistant (PAE) projection world map goes back about 300 years, with some indications that it was in use for just the Northern Hemisphere even earlier than that.   The FES didn't invent it.  The mathematics for it is somewhat challenging.  And the same projection will work with some spot other than the North Pole at the center.

Frankly, an accurate map of a Flat Earth on an equally flat piece of paper would be quite different and not involve any sort of projection or higher mathematics.  It would simply be a flat floor plan of a flat earth on a flat paper.