What Evidence?

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krukoslik

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What Evidence?
« on: February 10, 2012, 01:37:47 PM »
I just stumbled across this forum and I'm wondering if anyone HONESTLY believes that the earth is a flat disc, and that the sun is a massive lamp that follows certain segments of the earth, hence day and night. From what I have seen there is far more evidence to prove that the earth is a sphere, but who knows.

Could someone show me some evidence?

I'm asking this out of curiosity, not in the name of criticism.

I'm seriously interested in this idea, and if anyone has some concrete evidence to prove the FE theory, then by all means show me.

  :)

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krukoslik

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2012, 01:43:59 PM »
Bump :D

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Thork

Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2012, 01:56:17 PM »
Bumping is frowned upon in the upper fora. Your thread might have received attention sooner had you bothered to give it a remotely imaginative or relevant title, but you couldn't be bothered.

Also, I don't know what you expect in the way of a response? No one is going to write a novel explaining all the proofs for you. Read some of the threads. If anything specific jumps to mind, ask a question. But I could talk about the moon and GPS and the history of the society and tides and compasses and etc etc. And its likely you wouldn't read it all.

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zarg

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2012, 01:59:37 PM »
What is considered evidence for Earth's flatness is listed here:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=Experimental_Evidence

The related theories such as the nature of the sun essentially have no evidence besides inference: "If the earth is flat, this must also be true."
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iwanttobelieve

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2012, 02:15:42 PM »
i like the term "lamp". It is 100% better than the very untrue "spotlight"
let spotlight be stricken from the FAQ and replace it with "lamp"

thanks you,


and welcome to the forum krukoslik, i hope you enjoy your stay.

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krukoslik

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2012, 11:31:19 AM »
Bumping is frowned upon in the upper fora. Your thread might have received attention sooner had you bothered to give it a remotely imaginative or relevant title, but you couldn't be bothered.

Also, I don't know what you expect in the way of a response? No one is going to write a novel explaining all the proofs for you. Read some of the threads. If anything specific jumps to mind, ask a question. But I could talk about the moon and GPS and the history of the society and tides and compasses and etc etc. And its likely you wouldn't read it all.

sorry about the bumping, really. Obviously this forum goes through hundreds of threads every hour, and my bumping may have caused the curiosity of many others to go unnoticed. I apologize.

BUT!

Today the globular earth theory is scientifically adopted as truth.  THEREFORE It is NOT my responsibility to find information regarding your theory. it is therefore your job as the believer to prove to me how it could be true.


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markjo

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2012, 11:48:40 AM »
Today the globular earth theory is scientifically adopted as truth.  THEREFORE It is NOT my responsibility to find information regarding your theory. it is therefore your job as the believer to prove to me how it could be true.

There are hundreds of people who have come and demanded evidence.  Is it really the responsibility of the relatively few FE'ers to hand hold the many RE'ers who are too lazy to make even a cursory scan of the readily available reference material?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Thork

Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2012, 12:07:30 PM »
sorry about the bumping, really. Obviously this forum goes through hundreds of threads every hour, and my bumping may have caused the curiosity of many others to go unnoticed. I apologize.

BUT!

Today the globular earth theory is scientifically adopted as truth.  THEREFORE It is NOT my responsibility to find information regarding your theory. it is therefore your job as the believer to prove to me how it could be true.


Yeah, ok, but as Markjo said there aren't as many flat earth believers as one might imagine. Our conversion rate is pretty low. Make it easier (less time consuming for me). What is your area of interest? What makes you think earth is round and then I'll let you know why you are wrong. :D

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Tausami

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2012, 12:34:56 PM »
Bedford level experiment.

Preemptive responses: refraction is special pleasing, Wallace cheated.

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zarg

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2012, 04:01:01 PM »
refraction is special pleasing

Refraction was theorized and proved long before the Bedford experiment. You might want to brush up on what special pleading is.


Wallace cheated.

Cute. Now all you have to do is make excuses for the other countless thousands who have done the equivalent experiment and seen and documented the same thing as Wallace, while you have zero photographic evidence of your own claims.
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[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2012, 05:46:57 PM »
you have zero photographic evidence of your own claims.


We have lots of direct sensorial evidence though.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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zarg

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2012, 06:05:31 PM »
you have zero photographic evidence of your own claims.

We have lots of direct sensorial evidence though.

Cameras are sensors too, and they have the benefit of not being susceptible to delusion and hallucination. I'd love some photographic evidence of the Bedford experiment or equivalent. What's the holdup?
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2012, 06:08:17 PM »
you have zero photographic evidence of your own claims.

We have lots of direct sensorial evidence though.

Cameras are sensors too, and they have the benefit of not being susceptible to delusion and hallucination. I'd love some photographic evidence of the Bedford experiment or equivalent. What's the holdup?


Cameras are not sensorial. Furthermore, how can you use a camera without using your senses, which you claim are "susceptible to delusion and hallucination"? Please be consistent.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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zarg

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2012, 07:13:48 PM »
you have zero photographic evidence of your own claims.

We have lots of direct sensorial evidence though.

Cameras are sensors too, and they have the benefit of not being susceptible to delusion and hallucination. I'd love some photographic evidence of the Bedford experiment or equivalent. What's the holdup?


Cameras are not sensorial. Furthermore, how can you use a camera without using your senses, which you claim are "susceptible to delusion and hallucination"? Please be consistent.

Yep, a camera is an image sensor; photographs are sensorial evidence. Cameras don't conform to your delusions, so another set of eyes examining the photo is more reliable than listening to word-of-mouth testimony. Unless you expect me to get on a plane and follow you around on your legendary Direct Sensory Expeditions, I'm not going to take your word for it unless I see some photos. So how about those photos?
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

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The Knowledge

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2012, 06:09:40 AM »
Bedford level experiment.

Preemptive responses: refraction is special pleasing, Wallace cheated.

Exact counter, nullifying your pre-emptions: Rowbotham had an agenda, he cheated.
Finishing blow for FE: other people than Wallace have also repeated this type of experiment and it has shown roundness.

The Bedford Level Experiment is not admissible evidence in favour of FE.
Watermelon, Rhubarb Rhubarb, no one believes the Earth is Flat, Peas and Carrots,  walla.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2012, 07:56:34 AM »
Yep, a camera is an image sensor; photographs are sensorial evidence. Cameras don't conform to your delusions, so another set of eyes examining the photo is more reliable than listening to word-of-mouth testimony. Unless you expect me to get on a plane and follow you around on your legendary Direct Sensory Expeditions, I'm not going to take your word for it unless I see some photos. So how about those photos?


Photographs are not sensorial evidence. Sensorial means "Of or relating to sensations or sensory impressions". Now, we all know that means the bodily senses, not the sensors in my smart phone, so please, drop this lame move.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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zarg

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2012, 09:26:30 AM »
Yep, a camera is an image sensor; photographs are sensorial evidence. Cameras don't conform to your delusions, so another set of eyes examining the photo is more reliable than listening to word-of-mouth testimony. Unless you expect me to get on a plane and follow you around on your legendary Direct Sensory Expeditions, I'm not going to take your word for it unless I see some photos. So how about those photos?


Photographs are not sensorial evidence. Sensorial means "Of or relating to sensations or sensory impressions". Now, we all know that means the bodily senses, not the sensors in my smart phone, so please, drop this lame move.

Nice strawman, bro.

Now, remove the first sentence from that post you quoted and read it again.
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

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krukoslik

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2012, 11:34:54 AM »
sorry about the bumping, really. Obviously this forum goes through hundreds of threads every hour, and my bumping may have caused the curiosity of many others to go unnoticed. I apologize.

BUT!

Today the globular earth theory is scientifically adopted as truth.  THEREFORE It is NOT my responsibility to find information regarding your theory. it is therefore your job as the believer to prove to me how it could be true.


Yeah, ok, but as Markjo said there aren't as many flat earth believers as one might imagine. Our conversion rate is pretty low. Make it easier (less time consuming for me). What is your area of interest? What makes you think earth is round and then I'll let you know why you are wrong. :D

I get what your going for. you want me to prove the globular earth theory without any outside evidence. Thats what the FE society is all about i'm pretty sure. Making the point that people just assume what they are told is true. This could be pretty interesting. well then, challenge accepted!

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krukoslik

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2012, 11:38:51 AM »
sorry about the bumping, really. Obviously this forum goes through hundreds of threads every hour, and my bumping may have caused the curiosity of many others to go unnoticed. I apologize.

BUT!

Today the globular earth theory is scientifically adopted as truth.  THEREFORE It is NOT my responsibility to find information regarding your theory. it is therefore your job as the believer to prove to me how it could be true.


Yeah, ok, but as Markjo said there aren't as many flat earth believers as one might imagine. Our conversion rate is pretty low. Make it easier (less time consuming for me). What is your area of interest? What makes you think earth is round and then I'll let you know why you are wrong. :D

Alrighty. First point. Why is it that when there is a lunar eclipse, There is a round shadow of the earth projected on the moon, regardless of which angles the moon and the sun are at? (assuming that the sun and the moon are parallel to eachother, with the earth in the middle?   ???

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krukoslik

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2012, 11:46:04 AM »
sorry about the bumping, really. Obviously this forum goes through hundreds of threads every hour, and my bumping may have caused the curiosity of many others to go unnoticed. I apologize.

BUT!

Today the globular earth theory is scientifically adopted as truth.  THEREFORE It is NOT my responsibility to find information regarding your theory. it is therefore your job as the believer to prove to me how it could be true.


Yeah, ok, but as Markjo said there aren't as many flat earth believers as one might imagine. Our conversion rate is pretty low. Make it easier (less time consuming for me). What is your area of interest? What makes you think earth is round and then I'll let you know why you are wrong. :D

Alrighty. First point. Why is it that when there is a lunar eclipse, There is a round shadow of the earth projected on the moon, regardless of which angles the moon and the sun are at? (assuming that the sun and the moon are parallel to eachother, with the earth in the middle?   ???


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rad_creeper

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2012, 11:48:09 AM »
I am a non believer so i would like you to convince me..... The most compelling evidence happen to be the oldest evidence. As ships sailed a way from port their masts appeared to shorten, this was not a trick of distance but appeared as the ship sailed further away from port, there for starting to sail down the world....


Why that's preposterous my good man!

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Archibald

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2012, 11:53:33 AM »
I am a non believer so i would like you to convince me..... The most compelling evidence happen to be the oldest evidence. As ships sailed a way from port their masts appeared to shorten, this was not a trick of distance but appeared as the ship sailed further away from port, there for starting to sail down the world....

Here its a thread about your sinking ship.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=53166.0
For whatever reason you allow Clocktower to derail any thread Archibald posts in.

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markjo

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2012, 12:30:57 PM »
Alrighty. First point. Why is it that when there is a lunar eclipse, There is a round shadow of the earth projected on the moon, regardless of which angles the moon and the sun are at? (assuming that the sun and the moon are parallel to eachother, with the earth in the middle?   ???

Well, if one were to approach this from a flat earther's point of view, the first thing to ask is "how do you know for sure that the shadow cast upon the moon is the earth's shadow?"
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2012, 08:23:46 PM »
Yep, a camera is an image sensor; photographs are sensorial evidence. Cameras don't conform to your delusions, so another set of eyes examining the photo is more reliable than listening to word-of-mouth testimony. Unless you expect me to get on a plane and follow you around on your legendary Direct Sensory Expeditions, I'm not going to take your word for it unless I see some photos. So how about those photos?


Photographs are not sensorial evidence. Sensorial means "Of or relating to sensations or sensory impressions". Now, we all know that means the bodily senses, not the sensors in my smart phone, so please, drop this lame move.

Nice strawman, bro.

Now, remove the first sentence from that post you quoted and read it again.


So you're argument is that I am making a strawman agrument, as long as we remove the things you actually said? Seriously, debate like an adult. Stop trying to portray accurate rendtitions of your posts as strawman arguments. It's beyond ludicrous.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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zarg

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2012, 08:46:16 PM »
So you're argument is that I am making a strawman agrument, as long as we remove the things you actually said? Seriously, debate like an adult. Stop trying to portray accurate rendtitions of your posts as strawman arguments. It's beyond ludicrous.

No, you are attacking a strawman whether it's removed or not. I told you to remove it so that you would focus on the main part of the point. Isolating the first sentence of my post and ignoring the rest is not an accurate rendition of my post. You are attempting to dismiss the entire point with a semantics argument through your interpretation of "sensorial". That's pointless and you know it. Stay focused. The point is photographic evidence is more reliable than one's word. I want photographic evidence of the Bedford claim. Why have you been unable to present any in over a hundred years?
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2012, 08:30:39 AM »
So you're argument is that I am making a strawman agrument, as long as we remove the things you actually said? Seriously, debate like an adult. Stop trying to portray accurate rendtitions of your posts as strawman arguments. It's beyond ludicrous.

No, you are attacking a strawman whether it's removed or not. I told you to remove it so that you would focus on the main part of the point. Isolating the first sentence of my post and ignoring the rest is not an accurate rendition of my post. You are attempting to dismiss the entire point with a semantics argument through your interpretation of "sensorial". That's pointless and you know it. Stay focused. The point is photographic evidence is more reliable than one's word. I want photographic evidence of the Bedford claim. Why have you been unable to present any in over a hundred years?


Okay, first of all I did not "isolate the first sentence of your post and ignore the rest". I quoted your post in its entirety, and responded to the part which was relevant to what we were originally discussing. Your post was in no way misrepresented, as it was quoted in full above my response! Ignoring parts of a post is not a strawman argument. Stop using words you do not understand.


Speaking of which, do not accuse me of introducing the "semantics argument". You were the one who originally put forward the idea that as cameras are sensors, photographic evidence is "sensorial", not me. Finally, the reason I am ignoring the second aspect of your original post is because its value is predicated on the validity of photographic evidence, which of course is what I am contesting when I advocate the primacy of direct sensorial evidence.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Tom Bishop

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2012, 08:32:33 AM »
The point is photographic evidence is more reliable than one's word.

No it's not. Photographs are as easy to manipulate as words.

Consider the many years it takes to learn the English language to a point where you could lie convincingly compared to the one Intro to Photoshop class you need to take to manipulate a photo -- one might even say that it's easier to lie with a photograph.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 08:35:02 AM by Tom Bishop »

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ClockTower

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2012, 08:41:04 AM »
The point is photographic evidence is more reliable than one's word.

No it's not. Photographs are as easy to manipulate as words.

Consider the many years it takes to learn the English language to a point where you could lie convincingly compared to the one Intro to Photoshop class you need to take to manipulate a photo -- one might even say that it's easier to lie with a photograph.
Not really.

A photograph with its provenance can only lie when both the purveyor lies and the photograph is manipulated. Since A+B > A when A and B are both positive, lying with the use of a photograph is definitely harder.

Confer: http://news.yahoo.com/wooly-mammoth-hoax-video-shows-believe-213400404.html
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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zarg

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2012, 09:16:16 AM »
So you're argument is that I am making a strawman agrument, as long as we remove the things you actually said? Seriously, debate like an adult. Stop trying to portray accurate rendtitions of your posts as strawman arguments. It's beyond ludicrous.

No, you are attacking a strawman whether it's removed or not. I told you to remove it so that you would focus on the main part of the point. Isolating the first sentence of my post and ignoring the rest is not an accurate rendition of my post. You are attempting to dismiss the entire point with a semantics argument through your interpretation of "sensorial". That's pointless and you know it. Stay focused. The point is photographic evidence is more reliable than one's word. I want photographic evidence of the Bedford claim. Why have you been unable to present any in over a hundred years?


Okay, first of all I did not "isolate the first sentence of your post and ignore the rest". I quoted your post in its entirety, and responded to the part which was relevant to what we were originally discussing. Your post was in no way misrepresented, as it was quoted in full above my response! Ignoring parts of a post is not a strawman argument. Stop using words you do not understand.

So, in short: It's not a strawman as long as you quote the whole post? Wrong. On the contrary, the fact that you quoted the whole thing but only addressed the first sentence makes it even worse. If you only meant to reply to the first sentence, that's what you should have done.


Speaking of which, do not accuse me of introducing the "semantics argument". You were the one who originally put forward the idea that as cameras are sensors, photographic evidence is "sensorial", not me.

What I originally put forth was the same point as I'm making now. It is, and always was, as I said above: photographic evidence is more reliable than one's word. I want photographic evidence of the Bedford claim. Let's look back:

you have zero photographic evidence of your own claims.

We have lots of direct sensorial evidence though.

Cameras are sensors too, and they have the benefit of not being susceptible to delusion and hallucination. I'd love some photographic evidence of the Bedford experiment or equivalent. What's the holdup?

As you can see, the first thing I commented on was the lack of photographic evidence. You said that you have sensorial evidence, so I then pointed out that cameras are more reliable sensors, and repeated my request for photographic evidence.


Finally, the reason I am ignoring the second aspect of your original post is because its value is predicated on the validity of photographic evidence, which of course is what I am contesting when I advocate the primacy of direct sensorial evidence.

No, the validity of camera versus eyes cannot be inferred by your semantics babbling. You have not put forth any arguments at all for "the primacy of direct sensorial evidence". All you have done is dodge the issue by arguing the semantics of what qualifies as sensorial.

So please, let's see an argument: tell us why you think your real-time interpretations and your memory is more reliable than a photographic recording. I have already presented my argument, and I will repeat it here: Cameras don't conform to your delusions, so another set of eyes examining the photo is more reliable than listening to word-of-mouth testimony. What is your counter to this?



The point is photographic evidence is more reliable than one's word.

No it's not. Photographs are as easy to manipulate as words.

Consider the many years it takes to learn the English language to a point where you could lie convincingly compared to the one Intro to Photoshop class you need to take to manipulate a photo -- one might even say that it's easier to lie with a photograph.

Please pay attention. I never said anyone was lying.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 09:19:17 AM by zarg »
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[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

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Pongo

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Re: What Evidence?
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2012, 09:43:21 AM »
Zarg, you do realize that you cannot compare a photo to using your eyes right?  You need to use your eyes to view the flat world as much as you need your eyes to view a photograph. Comparing the method you use to view things to something viewable can never come to a conclusion that one or the other is more reliable. Apples and oranges, mate.

Also, that was not a strawman arguement. I think that these forums could use more debating rather that a few individuals filling every thread with their contrived and erroneous accusations of false arguements.