How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth

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Vindictus

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #450 on: October 19, 2010, 11:39:31 PM »
When you're not being a pedantic asshole for no reason, sure. Oh wait...

How else can anybody ever talk with ClockTower?

With a hammer and a very sharp nail.

On a serious note; has CT ever posted in a light hearted fashion? I can't think of a single post of his that has held intentional humour.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #451 on: October 19, 2010, 11:47:54 PM »
When you're not being a pedantic asshole for no reason, sure. Oh wait...

How else can anybody ever talk with ClockTower?

With a hammer and a very sharp nail.

On a serious note; has CT ever posted in a light hearted fashion? I can't think of a single post of his that has held intentional humour.

Not that I have witnessed. This is why I said he has no soul, and why you almost have to speak pedantically with him, otherwise he acts as though he has no clue what you are talking about.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 12:00:32 AM by EnglshGentleman »

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Raist

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #452 on: October 20, 2010, 01:37:26 PM »
When you're not being a pedantic asshole for no reason, sure. Oh wait...

How else can anybody ever talk with ClockTower?

With a hammer and a very sharp nail.

On a serious note; has CT ever posted in a light hearted fashion? I can't think of a single post of his that has held intentional humour.

Not that I have witnessed. This is why I said he has no soul, and why you almost have to speak pedantically with him, otherwise he acts as though he has no clue what you are talking about.

It's not that he acts, he is just very very stupid.

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Dr. Logic

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Re: How Evolution Proves a F.5kmlat Earth
« Reply #453 on: October 25, 2010, 03:41:41 PM »
There is an easy way to resolve this debate.  Why don't we actually do the math and see what answer we get?

Assuming a spherical earth
For our example we shall use the Bar-headed Goose.  It holds the record as the world's highest flying bird, migrating approximately 1500 km at an altitude of approximately 10,000 m.  The radius of the earth is approximately 6367.5 km.  By C=2*pi*r we can calculate the circumference of a sphere (where c=circumference, pi=3.1415..., and r = radius).  Therefore the distance around the earth is approximately C=2*3.1415*6367.5km or C=40,008 km .  If a bird is flying around the earth at an altitude of 10,000 m (or 10km) then the radius of its flight would be 6367.5+10 or 6377.5km.  We perform the same calculation again to find that the total distance around the earth at 10,000 m above sea level to be 40,071km.  What is the difference between those distances?  63 km, or .16% the total distance had the bird been flying at ground level.  By symmetry, this proportion would hold true regardless if the bird flew all the way around the world or just 1500 km.  That means that a bird flying a distance of 1500 km at an altitude of 10000 m would only fly an extra 2.36 km (.16*1500), which is a distance shorter than its altitude by almost four times.  Note that this is an extreme case, and that most birds fly at much lower altitudes. 

Need I say more?     

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rawraj

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #454 on: October 26, 2010, 10:22:21 AM »

What wing works better at low pressure? Contact Boeing, if the Earth is round you've got an easy path to space!

Tell me more about the easy path to space please!

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Thork

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #455 on: October 26, 2010, 10:57:37 AM »
There is an easy way to resolve this debate.  Why don't we actually do the math and see what answer we get?

Assuming a spherical earth
For our example we shall use the Bar-headed Goose.  It holds the record as the world's highest flying bird, migrating approximately 1500 km at an altitude of approximately 10,000 m.  The radius of the earth is approximately 6367.5 km.  By C=2*pi*r we can calculate the circumference of a sphere (where c=circumference, pi=3.1415..., and r = radius).  Therefore the distance around the earth is approximately C=2*3.1415*6367.5km or C=40,008 km .  If a bird is flying around the earth at an altitude of 10,000 m (or 10km) then the radius of its flight would be 6367.5+10 or 6377.5km.  We perform the same calculation again to find that the total distance around the earth at 10,000 m above sea level to be 40,071km.  What is the difference between those distances?  63 km, or .16% the total distance had the bird been flying at ground level.  By symmetry, this proportion would hold true regardless if the bird flew all the way around the world or just 1500 km.  That means that a bird flying a distance of 1500 km at an altitude of 10000 m would only fly an extra 2.36 km (.16*1500), which is a distance shorter than its altitude by almost four times.  Note that this is an extreme case, and that most birds fly at much lower altitudes. 

Need I say more?     
Yes, what are you saying? You surmise the distance is further for round earth. So do you agree with the OP? If not, you have not stated why not. You only confirmed the distance is further as he already pointed out.

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Hessy

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #456 on: October 26, 2010, 11:49:42 AM »
No need to do any math here. 

One of Pongo's arguments is something like "Their migratory paths would be efficient on a flat Earth, but not on a round Earth."  This is irrelevant; all Pongo's saying (whether he knows it or not) is that a flat Earth would be better for birds than a round Earth.

Pongo is correct when he talks about natural selection favoring those who are most efficient/adapt the best to their habitats.  However, in this case, the shape of the Earth is irrelevant.  Birds will adapt as best they can regardless of the shape of the Earth.

Another case Pongo makes is that birds fly at high altitudes, which is (insignificantly**) less efficient than if they flew at low altitudes; therefore, he says, natural selection would essentially kill them off.  Yet they're still here, and he claims it's because the Earth is flat.

Yet there are dozens of other factors that influence the birds.  They may fly at high altitudes to avoid predators, for better weather, for less dense air, etc. 

This is all not to mention how insignificant the increase is in distance between flying at ground level 38,000 feet in the sky (the highest recorded altitude bird's flight): a trip around the (round) Earth along a longitudinal line at an altitude of 38,000 feet is only .3% more than a trip at ground level. 

Not enough to kill off birds.

Radius of the Earth: 3963.1676 miles
Radius of the Earth + 38k feet: 3970.3645697 miles
Circumference of the Earth: 24859.82 miles (along a longitude)
Circumferenec of the Earth at 38,000 feet: 24946.536328 miles (along a longitude)

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Dr. Logic

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #457 on: October 26, 2010, 01:35:54 PM »
There is an easy way to resolve this debate.  Why don't we actually do the math and see what answer we get?

Assuming a spherical earth
For our example we shall use the Bar-headed Goose.  It holds the record as the world's highest flying bird, migrating approximately 1500 km at an altitude of approximately 10,000 m.  The radius of the earth is approximately 6367.5 km.  By C=2*pi*r we can calculate the circumference of a sphere (where c=circumference, pi=3.1415..., and r = radius).  Therefore the distance around the earth is approximately C=2*3.1415*6367.5km or C=40,008 km .  If a bird is flying around the earth at an altitude of 10,000 m (or 10km) then the radius of its flight would be 6367.5+10 or 6377.5km.  We perform the same calculation again to find that the total distance around the earth at 10,000 m above sea level to be 40,071km.  What is the difference between those distances?  63 km, or .16% the total distance had the bird been flying at ground level.  By symmetry, this proportion would hold true regardless if the bird flew all the way around the world or just 1500 km.  That means that a bird flying a distance of 1500 km at an altitude of 10000 m would only fly an extra 2.36 km (.16*1500), which is a distance shorter than its altitude by almost four times.  Note that this is an extreme case, and that most birds fly at much lower altitudes. 

Need I say more?     
Yes, what are you saying? You surmise the distance is further for round earth. So do you agree with the OP? If not, you have not stated why not. You only confirmed the distance is further as he already pointed out.

My point is that the difference is so insignificant that it makes no difference.  .16% over a total distance is so trivial that it would make absolutely no difference in the survival of birds (that is assuming that it is equally efficient to travel at all altitudes, which it is not).

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Thork

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #458 on: October 26, 2010, 01:41:32 PM »
I do not believe Pongo is suggesting the extra distance will kill the birds. I think he is suggesting that birds have evolved to be excellent navigators and would choose the shorter distance for themselves. Why would the birds want to spend an extra hour or so flying to a destination?

Let me give the example of the Alaskan Bar-tailed Godwit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar-tailed_Godwit

This bird makes a staggering 11,000 km trip almost all across the Pacific Ocean (so no obsticles). It does it at a mere 30mph in one go on the wing at 6,500ft.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/3307832/Bar-tailed-godwits-non-stop-Pacific-crossing.html

Now this bird would save 2 hours flying lower on its non-stop flight.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 01:50:47 PM by Thork »

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ClockTower

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #459 on: October 26, 2010, 02:05:16 PM »
Now this bird would save 2 hours flying lower on its non-stop flight.
Justify this claim please. Wouldn't the higher flight be more efficient and safer?
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Thork

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #460 on: October 26, 2010, 02:07:45 PM »
Now this bird would save 2 hours flying lower on its non-stop flight.
Justify this claim please. Wouldn't the higher flight be more efficient and safer?
Justify this claim please. How is flying at 6500 ft safer than flying 1000 ft over the pacific? Is the air not thinner so more lift is required and hence more flapping?

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #461 on: October 26, 2010, 02:10:16 PM »
Would be a good idea to investigate fully the evolutionary reasons behind various birds' cruising altitudes before stumbling to conjectures like this.

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ClockTower

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #462 on: October 26, 2010, 02:13:10 PM »
Now this bird would save 2 hours flying lower on its non-stop flight.
Justify this claim please. Wouldn't the higher flight be more efficient and safer?
Justify this claim please. How is flying at 6500 ft safer than flying 1000 ft over the pacific? Is the air not thinner so more lift is required and hence more flapping?
What claim did I make? Please learn to read.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Thork

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #463 on: October 26, 2010, 02:19:29 PM »
Would be a good idea to investigate fully the evolutionary reasons behind various birds' cruising altitudes before stumbling to conjectures like this.
Have done. My link for the Alaskan Bar-tailed Godwit showed it flew 11,000km at 6,500 ft.

Now this bird would save 2 hours flying lower on its non-stop flight.
Justify this claim please. Wouldn't the higher flight be more efficient and safer?
Justify this claim please. How is flying at 6500 ft safer than flying 1000 ft over the pacific? Is the air not thinner so more lift is required and hence more flapping?
What claim did I make? Please learn to read.
So you have no point to make.

As for my claim, the bird is flying at 6,500 ft for 11,000 km at 30 mph. Using the math posted earlier by REr's in this thread, you can see the journey is now 2 hours longer.



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ClockTower

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #464 on: October 26, 2010, 02:22:15 PM »
Would be a good idea to investigate fully the evolutionary reasons behind various birds' cruising altitudes before stumbling to conjectures like this.
Have done. My link for the Alaskan Bar-tailed Godwit showed it flew 11,000km at 6,500 ft.

Now this bird would save 2 hours flying lower on its non-stop flight.
Justify this claim please. Wouldn't the higher flight be more efficient and safer?
Justify this claim please. How is flying at 6500 ft safer than flying 1000 ft over the pacific? Is the air not thinner so more lift is required and hence more flapping?
What claim did I make? Please learn to read.
So you have no point to make.

As for my claim, the bird is flying at 6,500 ft for 11,000 km at 30 mph. Using the math posted earlier by REr's in this thread, you can see the journey is now 2 hours longer.



Since you seem challenged in just reading, let me repeat my challenge by highlighting it in red above. Do tell us how you considered all factors in making your claim.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #465 on: October 26, 2010, 02:34:54 PM »
Would be a good idea to investigate fully the evolutionary reasons behind various birds' cruising altitudes before stumbling to conjectures like this.
Have done. My link for the Alaskan Bar-tailed Godwit showed it flew 11,000km at 6,500 ft.


Yeah but does it say why? I've not read the link I must admit.

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Thork

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #466 on: October 26, 2010, 02:51:24 PM »
Would be a good idea to investigate fully the evolutionary reasons behind various birds' cruising altitudes before stumbling to conjectures like this.
Have done. My link for the Alaskan Bar-tailed Godwit showed it flew 11,000km at 6,500 ft.


Yeah but does it say why? I've not read the link I must admit.
lol. Well that's the debate isn't it? If the earth is flat it makes no odds to them, same distance. If its round, they need a reason to endure the extra distance.

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ClockTower

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #467 on: October 26, 2010, 02:56:07 PM »
Would be a good idea to investigate fully the evolutionary reasons behind various birds' cruising altitudes before stumbling to conjectures like this.
Have done. My link for the Alaskan Bar-tailed Godwit showed it flew 11,000km at 6,500 ft.


Yeah but does it say why? I've not read the link I must admit.
lol. Well that's the debate isn't it? If the earth is flat it makes no odds to them, same distance. If its round, they need a reason to endure the extra distance.
False. Both the effort and distance would be greater at high altitudes even if FE. Typical of you to ignore the facts.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Thork

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #468 on: October 26, 2010, 02:59:32 PM »
Typical of you to include no facts in your post.

The effort of climbing is offset by the benefit of descending the same amount. Harder to climb, easier to glide.

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #469 on: October 26, 2010, 02:59:55 PM »
Would be a good idea to investigate fully the evolutionary reasons behind various birds' cruising altitudes before stumbling to conjectures like this.
Have done. My link for the Alaskan Bar-tailed Godwit showed it flew 11,000km at 6,500 ft.


Yeah but does it say why? I've not read the link I must admit.
lol. Well that's the debate isn't it? If the earth is flat it makes no odds to them, same distance. If its round, they need a reason to endure the extra distance. I'd like to know what that reason is, but it's too late in the day to find out

Exactly so if there was an evolutionary reason for flying higher than appears necessary then that would justify the extra distances.

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Thork

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #470 on: October 26, 2010, 03:02:44 PM »
But FE doesn't have the extra distance.  The bird can easily gain height with thermals. Why all the extra miles to fly round a curved earth?

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #471 on: October 26, 2010, 03:05:11 PM »
But FE doesn't have the extra distance.  The bird can easily gain height with thermals. Why all the extra miles to fly round a curved earth?

That's what I'm asking! I don't know but I would bet there is a reason for it.

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ClockTower

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #472 on: October 26, 2010, 03:06:51 PM »
Typical of you to include no facts in your post.

The effort of climbing is offset by the benefit of descending the same amount. Harder to climb, easier to glide.
So you admit the distance is indeed longer and that you were wrong. Got it. So why do birds bother climbing in FE?
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #473 on: October 26, 2010, 03:11:34 PM »
I do not believe Pongo is suggesting the extra distance will kill the birds. I think he is suggesting that birds have evolved to be excellent navigators and would choose the shorter distance for themselves. Why would the birds want to spend an extra hour or so flying to a destination?

Let me give the example of the Alaskan Bar-tailed Godwit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar-tailed_Godwit

This bird makes a staggering 11,000 km trip almost all across the Pacific Ocean (so no obsticles). It does it at a mere 30mph in one go on the wing at 6,500ft.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/3307832/Bar-tailed-godwits-non-stop-Pacific-crossing.html

Now this bird would save 2 hours flying lower on its non-stop flight.

Lower altitude = more turbulence = more resistance = no time savings

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Thork

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #474 on: October 26, 2010, 03:13:51 PM »
Typical of you to include no facts in your post.

The effort of climbing is offset by the benefit of descending the same amount. Harder to climb, easier to glide.
So you admit the distance is indeed longer and that you were wrong. Got it. So why do birds bother climbing in FE?
Thermals are easy to catch. Use them for gliding at the end of the trip. Before you say oh, well that's what they do for RET as well, glide ratio of a goose for example is only 22:1. So from 6,500 ft they only glide around 27 miles. Way short of the extra distance for a round earth trip.

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ClockTower

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #475 on: October 26, 2010, 03:16:33 PM »
Typical of you to include no facts in your post.

The effort of climbing is offset by the benefit of descending the same amount. Harder to climb, easier to glide.
So you admit the distance is indeed longer and that you were wrong. Got it. So why do birds bother climbing in FE?
Thermals are easy to catch. Use them for gliding at the end of the trip. Before you say oh, well that's what they do for RET as well, glide ratio of a goose for example is only 22:1. So from 6,500 ft they only glide around 27 miles. Way short of the extra distance for a round earth trip.
I see, so you claim the reason for flying higher is simply that it's easy and efficient. So what was your point again?
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Thork

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #476 on: October 26, 2010, 03:20:29 PM »
Quote
Lower altitude = more turbulence = more resistance = no time savings
Incorrect. Low level turbulence is usually caused by obstacles such as mountains. hills or buildings. These birds fly over the sea. Turbulence off waves is negligible. However turbulence worsens as you climb as wind speed picks up. This causes greater variations in windsheer. That causes turbulence.

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Thork

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #477 on: October 26, 2010, 03:22:07 PM »
Typical of you to include no facts in your post.

The effort of climbing is offset by the benefit of descending the same amount. Harder to climb, easier to glide.
So you admit the distance is indeed longer and that you were wrong. Got it. So why do birds bother climbing in FE?
Thermals are easy to catch. Use them for gliding at the end of the trip. Before you say oh, well that's what they do for RET as well, glide ratio of a goose for example is only 22:1. So from 6,500 ft they only glide around 27 miles. Way short of the extra distance for a round earth trip.
I see, so you claim the reason for flying higher is simply that it's easy and efficient. So what was your point again?
As explained the benefit of gliding is negated by the RE distance. It would be better to be low on a round earth in this instance. So as Pongo says, at least the birds know its flat.

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ClockTower

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #478 on: October 26, 2010, 03:26:22 PM »
Typical of you to include no facts in your post.

The effort of climbing is offset by the benefit of descending the same amount. Harder to climb, easier to glide.
So you admit the distance is indeed longer and that you were wrong. Got it. So why do birds bother climbing in FE?
Thermals are easy to catch. Use them for gliding at the end of the trip. Before you say oh, well that's what they do for RET as well, glide ratio of a goose for example is only 22:1. So from 6,500 ft they only glide around 27 miles. Way short of the extra distance for a round earth trip.
I see, so you claim the reason for flying higher is simply that it's easy and efficient. So what was your point again?
As explained the benefit of gliding is negated by the RE distance. It would be better to be low on a round earth in this instance. So as Pongo says, at least the birds know its flat.
Really? Please justify your claim.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Thork

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #479 on: October 26, 2010, 03:28:31 PM »
Typical of you to include no facts in your post.

The effort of climbing is offset by the benefit of descending the same amount. Harder to climb, easier to glide.
So you admit the distance is indeed longer and that you were wrong. Got it. So why do birds bother climbing in FE?
Thermals are easy to catch. Use them for gliding at the end of the trip. Before you say oh, well that's what they do for RET as well, glide ratio of a goose for example is only 22:1. So from 6,500 ft they only glide around 27 miles. Way short of the extra distance for a round earth trip.
I see, so you claim the reason for flying higher is simply that it's easy and efficient. So what was your point again?
As explained the benefit of gliding is negated by the RE distance. It would be better to be low on a round earth in this instance. So as Pongo says, at least the birds know its flat.
Really? Please justify your claim.
Have you just woken up or something? The RE distance is around 60 miles further. If you don't understand a thread, stop posting in it.