What's the deal with...

They can email us or contact us via .net as much of the moderation team here is also moderators or members there.  Other options include contacting Daniel, contacting us via aim, facebook, and contacting us through other members.

Well, no. Not really. Being banned makes it impossible to contact anyone. You leave no contact deatils.

You should be allowed to protest your ban AND see the forum once banned. Even if it's not possible, do you agree it should be? It's possible to update the forum software, you know.

Quote from: John Davis on April 30, 2010, 07:13:52 AM

They can email us or contact us via .net as much of the moderation team here is also moderators or members there.  Other options include contacting Daniel, contacting us via aim, facebook, and contacting us through other members.

Well, no. Not really. Being banned makes it impossible to contact anyone. You leave no contact deatils.

You should be allowed to protest your ban AND see the forum once banned. Even if it's not possible, do you agree it should be? It's possible to update the forum software, you know.

I agree it would be nice to have suggestions and concerns available to the banned in a perfect world but its not feasible software wise currently and it likely would be abused.

I think maybe a simple solution would be to include an admin's email within the ban message.

For example,

Sorry Ichi,
you have been banned for posting naked pictures of yourself. Your ban is for 1 day. Contact [admin name]@FES.org if further explanation is desired.

I agree it would be nice to have suggestions and concerns available to the banned in a perfect world but its not feasible software wise currently and it likely would be abused.

Nope. No more than the contact details you already proposed would be abused.

If it's abused, ban the offender for good. If not, don't let the abuser harm the innocent.

I think maybe a simple solution would be to include an admin's email within the ban message.

For example,

Sorry Ichi,
you have been banned for posting naked pictures of yourself. Your ban is for 1 day. Contact [admin name]@FES.org if further explanation is desired.

I like this idea.  I'll suggest it in the admin forums.

Quote from: John Davis on April 30, 2010, 08:01:05 AM

I agree it would be nice to have suggestions and concerns available to the banned in a perfect world but its not feasible software wise currently and it likely would be abused.

Nope. No more than the contact details you already proposed would be abused.

Being such an expert in law you should know how to contact your state's AG and begin the process of a class action lawsuit to "make you whole" again for any unjust ban.  You should make yourself the point man for all other members in your state so that they can be included in the suit.  Don't forget about the emotional distress of others impacted by your ban.

Don't forget about the emotional distress of others impacted by your ban.

I don't want to complain about my ban, I want to complain that I was unable to see Crustinator for a week.

Quote from: Its a Sphere on April 30, 2010, 11:28:13 AM

Don't forget about the emotional distress of others impacted by your ban.

I don't want to complain about my ban, I want to complain that I was unable to see Crustinator for a week.

samefag

Quote from: Lord Wilmore on April 30, 2010, 06:43:25 AM

I have enough experience of internet forums to make a fair assessment

No you don't. Unless you're a mod on most sites. Bombastic statements don't impress.

Stop ignoring the bits of my posts which show why you're wrong. This board is not a playground. It's a place for members to express genuine concerns. The meaning of my statement was perfectly obvious, so stop being an ass or face a ban.

This has nothing to do with your statement "If the members aren't saying anything, and the mods aren't saying anything, then your ban is almost certainly justified".

Members cannot raise genuine concerns once banned. There is a good chance that regular members will not know that a member has been banned, so won't say anything. And mods rarely say anything due to the high levels of incompetence in the system already.

Status quo is established.

There is no review process. Impartial or otherwise.

"There is no review process. Impartial or otherwise."


This statement is untrue.

For example, I raised a thread about my last ban. It was filled with spam by other members and then closed. By you. You ended with a threat; "further offences in the near future will result in a significantly larger ban"

Perhaps you should add to the rules that raising queries about bans is a bannable offence.

This board is for raising genuine suggestions and concerns, not being an ass for the sake of it. You didn't even attempt to make a case for yourself, and were obviously more interested in being a troll than actually disputing your ban in any meaningful way.


Catchpa has a concern, and he has raised it in a critical yet civil manner. He is drawing our attention to an aspect of the board which he feels needs attention, and we will try to address the issue within the scope of the forum software and the practical realities of running this place. His queries are totally reasonable, and I welcome his input. Likewise, many others dispute bans without invoking any kind of rebuke from the moderating team, so that clearly isn't the issue here. I believe that the difference between their criticisms and yours is obvious to anyone, and that you're really just here to get a reaction.


In short, your intentions are clear, and I will not hesitate to ban you for abusing this board, which is here for the use of members who actually have something to say. Either contribute properly, or stay out.

If you haven't lurked enough to find out how to contact people despite a ban, you shuoldn't have made an account.

If you haven't lurked enough to find out how to contact people despite a ban, you shuoldn't have made an account.

Maybe you keep documents on your pc with contact details to your favorite FES mods, but the vast majority don't - and shouldn't be expected to either.

Being such an expert in law...

...is irrelevant to this thread.

Stop ignoring the bits of my posts which show why you're wrong. This board is not a playground. It's a place for members to express genuine concerns. The meaning of my statement was perfectly obvious, so stop being an ass or face a ban.

Nothing in your post showed why I was wrong. My post was genuine and sincere. Your inability to deal with it in a proper and mature way only highlights the problems you have here at TFES.

I've "made cases" on the previous occasions when I've been unjustly banned. It's the same old story: Wilmore/James/John Davis post something dumb and then as a consequence get shown why it's dumb. Rather than having to acknowledge this you (as a review panel collective) opt for the ban. There is no "review panel" other than...

"That guy was an ass to me"
"Yeah, he was. I was definitely molested by conspiracy goats. He had no right to challenge me."
"OK well I already banned him anyway"
"Oh good"

I'm not objecting to the fact that run your board like this. Hell it's your square of the precious internez and you are allowed to piss on who you like. But don't pretend you have any kind of virtuous and just system.

Quote from: cmdshft on April 29, 2010, 08:58:43 PM

How come when I was a mod these excuses wouldn't fly, but now they're being flung around left and right?

Fuck it, why do I bother...

cause you were a lousy mod who placed his ego in front of enforcing the rules.

Oh I get it. So if your ego and rule enforcement are equal (high, low, medium, hot, cold, etc), then it's ok.

Quote from: parsec on April 29, 2010, 09:04:09 PM

Quote from: cmdshft on April 29, 2010, 08:58:43 PM

How come when I was a mod these excuses wouldn't fly, but now they're being flung around left and right?

Fuck it, why do I bother...

cause you were a lousy mod who placed his ego in front of enforcing the rules.

Oh I get it. So if your ego and rule enforcement are equal (high, low, medium, hot, cold, etc), then it's ok.

No, I'm afraid you don't.

Quote from: Catchpa on April 30, 2010, 07:55:15 AM

Quote from: John Davis on April 30, 2010, 07:13:52 AM

They can email us or contact us via .net as much of the moderation team here is also moderators or members there.  Other options include contacting Daniel, contacting us via aim, facebook, and contacting us through other members.

Well, no. Not really. Being banned makes it impossible to contact anyone. You leave no contact deatils.

You should be allowed to protest your ban AND see the forum once banned. Even if it's not possible, do you agree it should be? It's possible to update the forum software, you know.

I agree it would be nice to have suggestions and concerns available to the banned in a perfect world but its not feasible software wise currently and it likely would be abused.

phpBB3 has this system. Who suggested using phpBB3 a while back? Me.

Also, as a former mod, Crustinator, you're pretty correct in your statements. I don't understand why Willmore and John are trying to cloud that fact. But seriously, let it the fuck go already. They aren't going to give in, no matter how right you may be.

Quote from: cmdshft on April 30, 2010, 05:36:46 PM

Quote from: parsec on April 29, 2010, 09:04:09 PM

Quote from: cmdshft on April 29, 2010, 08:58:43 PM

How come when I was a mod these excuses wouldn't fly, but now they're being flung around left and right?

Fuck it, why do I bother...

cause you were a lousy mod who placed his ego in front of enforcing the rules.

Oh I get it. So if your ego and rule enforcement are equal (high, low, medium, hot, cold, etc), then it's ok.

No, I'm afraid you don't.

Well, that seems to be how it's going. Oh well.

Quote from: Benjamin Franklin on April 30, 2010, 03:57:31 PM

If you haven't lurked enough to find out how to contact people despite a ban, you shuoldn't have made an account.

Maybe you keep documents on your pc with contact details to your favorite FES mods, but the vast majority don't - and shouldn't be expected to either.

The vast majority of non-newfags know any of the numerous ways to contact the moderators without the forums.
IRC, AIM, MSN, Yahoon, ICQ, e-mail, and Facebook, to name a few.

Yahoon

I don't know how to contact anyone through Yahoon.

Quote from: Catchpa on April 30, 2010, 04:10:08 PM

Quote from: Benjamin Franklin on April 30, 2010, 03:57:31 PM

If you haven't lurked enough to find out how to contact people despite a ban, you shuoldn't have made an account.

Maybe you keep documents on your pc with contact details to your favorite FES mods, but the vast majority don't - and shouldn't be expected to either.

The vast majority of non-newfags know any of the numerous ways to contact the moderators without the forums.
IRC, AIM, MSN, Yahoon, ICQ, e-mail, and Facebook, to name a few.

No they don't. I got more than 300 posts now, and I have yet to see any contact details for any mod. I don't know how to use IRC, Yahoo, ICQ and all FE'ers are too afraid to reveal their own identity, meaning Facebook is not an option either. That leaves me with MSN and Aim(e-mail is merged with both). At this point I still don't have the contact details.

Though you seem to have missed my point, I'll highlight it.

but the vast majority don't - and shouldn't be expected to either.

all FE'ers are too afraid to reveal their own identity, meaning Facebook is not an option either.

Wat? Try joining the FES facebook group, you'll see lots of FE'ers on there, not afraid to reveal their identities. Its not our fault you're too lazy to find ways to contact mods. Or you can take the initiative and note down a mod's email address now in case you are banned in the future, I'm sure I'm not the only one to have their email address listed on their profile.

Quote from: Lord Wilmore on April 30, 2010, 03:33:57 PM

Stop ignoring the bits of my posts which show why you're wrong. This board is not a playground. It's a place for members to express genuine concerns. The meaning of my statement was perfectly obvious, so stop being an ass or face a ban.

Nothing in your post showed why I was wrong. My post was genuine and sincere. Your inability to deal with it in a proper and mature way only highlights the problems you have here at TFES.

I've "made cases" on the previous occasions when I've been unjustly banned. It's the same old story: Wilmore/James/John Davis post something dumb and then as a consequence get shown why it's dumb. Rather than having to acknowledge this you (as a review panel collective) opt for the ban. There is no "review panel" other than...

"That guy was an ass to me"
"Yeah, he was. I was definitely molested by conspiracy goats. He had no right to challenge me."
"OK well I already banned him anyway"
"Oh good"

I'm not objecting to the fact that run your board like this. Hell it's your square of the precious internez and you are allowed to piss on who you like. But don't pretend you have any kind of virtuous and just system.

How can you possibly know any of this, given that these discussions take place in the mod board? The answer is that you can't, and that you're making all of this up despite the fact that you have no idea what goes on. There is a review process, and we do scrutinize each others decisions, something that can easily be proved. You get banned because you continually break the rules, and continually ignore warnings to stop doing so. Just about everyone here agrees that you're a troll, so the idea that it's just me and John ganging up on you is totally ridiculous.

Also, as a former mod, Crustinator, you're pretty correct in your statements. I don't understand why Willmore and John are trying to cloud that fact. But seriously, let it the fuck go already. They aren't going to give in, no matter how right you may be.

I'm glad you brought this up Hara, because "as a former mod" you actually prove that a review process exists. You consistently made poor decisions, whether banning people for no good reason or just breaking the rules yourself. You are the main reason that the Rule Enforcement Guidelines were created, and furthermore, you actually argued against bringing them in! Not only that, but the main reason you were demodded was because of your seeming inability to moderate in accordance with those guidelines.


Given all that, I think it's extremely dishonest of you to tell Crusty that he's "pretty correct" in his assertion that there is no review process, when a) you actively argued against the introduction of the guidelines b) some of your decisions were reversed or modified after scrutiny by other mods, and c) your demotion was largely caused by your inability to conform to the new, explicit guidelines that I brought in.

No they don't. I got more than 300 posts now, and I have yet to see any contact details for any mod. I don't know how to use IRC, Yahoo, ICQ and all FE'ers are too afraid to reveal their own identity, meaning Facebook is not an option either. That leaves me with MSN and Aim(e-mail is merged with both). At this point I still don't have the contact details.

Though you seem to have missed my point, I'll highlight it.

but the vast majority don't - and shouldn't be expected to either.

We're discussing a way of enabling members to contact the administration if they're unable to access the site and don't know why, but I don't think it'll change anything in terms of disuputing bans, so don't get your hopes up. As I said earlier, we already log and review all bans issued.


Incidentally, I don't know what you mean by "FE'ers are too afraid to reveal their own identity, meaning Facebook is not an option either". The FES has a Facebook page, which is regularly advertised at the top of the forum (in other words, it's not our fault if you don't know it exists). Several mods (including myself) admin the page, and I regularly post there, so please check your facts before making such inaccurate statements.

Its not our fault you're too lazy to find ways to contact mods. Or you can take the initiative and note down a mod's email address now in case you are banned in the future, I'm sure I'm not the only one to have their email address listed on their profile.

I created a post listing the contact details of all the mods, using the information available freely on this site. This was intended to help people contact the mods in the case of being banned.

The post was deleted.

Quote from: Colonel Gaydafi on May 01, 2010, 05:09:45 AM

Its not our fault you're too lazy to find ways to contact mods. Or you can take the initiative and note down a mod's email address now in case you are banned in the future, I'm sure I'm not the only one to have their email address listed on their profile.

I created a post listing the contact details of all the mods, using the information available freely on this site. This was intended to help people contact the mods in the case of being banned.

The post was deleted.

Its not much use creating a list on here cos if you're banned you can't see it.

Its not much use creating a list on here cos if you're banned you can't see it.

True. But I thought it was at least a step in the right direction. People can cut and paste it in preparation for the big day. Wilmore seemed to think differently. Oh well.

(Oh and it is possible to set banned members so they can just read the forums and not post, or log in)

Wat? Try joining the FES facebook group, you'll see lots of FE'ers on there, not afraid to reveal their identities. Its not our fault you're too lazy to find ways to contact mods. Or you can take the initiative and note down a mod's email address now in case you are banned in the future, I'm sure I'm not the only one to have their email address listed on their profile.

I don't see why, in case I get banned for no good reason, that I should have all these notes written down so that I can contact a mod. If one posts and plays by the rules, then gets punished wrongly, they are now shot in the foot because they figured "Hey, I post correctly and don't get in trouble. Why would I need to have the contact info for the mods?"

There's no reason not to see the contacts after ban, at least. I can see how posting in Suggestions after getting a ban would be a bad idea, and would have mods do nothing in here but deleting posts, but I also feel like just clicking the delete button isn't such a time-consuming thing. Real complaints will be kept, spam will be deleted.

Quote from: Colonel Gaydafi on May 01, 2010, 05:09:45 AM

Wat? Try joining the FES facebook group, you'll see lots of FE'ers on there, not afraid to reveal their identities. Its not our fault you're too lazy to find ways to contact mods. Or you can take the initiative and note down a mod's email address now in case you are banned in the future, I'm sure I'm not the only one to have their email address listed on their profile.

I don't see why, in case I get banned for no good reason, that I should have all these notes written down so that I can contact a mod. If one posts and plays by the rules, then gets punished wrongly, they are now shot in the foot because they figured "Hey, I post correctly and don't get in trouble. Why would I need to have the contact info for the mods?"

There's no reason not to see the contacts after ban, at least. I can see how posting in Suggestions after getting a ban would be a bad idea, and would have mods do nothing in here but deleting posts, but I also feel like just clicking the delete button isn't such a time-consuming thing. Real complaints will be kept, spam will be deleted.

I think in future we will be including a contact email address in bans so that people can make genuine complaints if they are banned. We do actually listen to the suggestions people have and try and do something about them. I'm just teasing Crusty about the contact info cos he is a silly troll.

I think in future we will be including a contact email address in bans so that people can make genuine complaints if they are banned. We do actually listen to the suggestions people have and try and do something about them. I'm just teasing Crusty about the contact info cos he is a silly troll.

Ah, well, now I feel silly for getting into this. Back into the shadows I go!

Searching Flat Earth Society on Facebook yields at least 7 resulsts with the name "Flat Earth Society" on the first page, out of 233 results which I have not checked. I wouldn't know which one to look it, and it would be even harder to pin point which member is a mod.

Wilmore, what is your real name?

I'm glad you brought this up Hara, because "as a former mod" you actually prove that a review process exists. You consistently made poor decisions, whether banning people for no good reason or just breaking the rules yourself. You are the main reason that the Rule Enforcement Guidelines were created, and furthermore, you actually argued against bringing them in! Not only that, but the main reason you were demodded was because of your seeming inability to moderate in accordance with those guidelines.

First off, this is no longer about me so don't even go there. Secondly, I was against the majority of the guidelines because they were flat out bullshit. I put my two cents in, but none of you wanted to hear what I had to say because you all wanted to play "let's pretend to believe" with this FET crap. I was doing absolutely fine with my job as a mod for nearly a year until the lot of you started attacking me out of nowhere, that's when I said fuck it and didn't give a shit about what your little club felt was right.

Furthermore, maybe you should demote your fellow mod John Davis, clearly he cannot moderate justly as well with that "troublemaking" claim in my recent banishment. If stirring the pot of lies is troublemaking, then so be it.

Stop avoiding the issues and actually do the right thing for once and stop being such fucking douchenozzles to everyone because it was a fellow fet clubmember that got put on blast, all of it legitimate reasons as well. That is what is occurring and nothing less.

I don't want to be on the mod team with you so don't even try and argue that is why I am speaking out this way. It's a website, I honestly could care less, I am apparently very capable of doing something else. But the others here, they enjoy coming here, and they do somewhat give a fuck about whatever it is they give a fuck about with this place. Figure this shit out for them, at least, and stop dicking around the bush.