Idea: Start a University

It doesn't matter because both schools hold the same quality of accreditation.

Accredited <> useful
Accredited <> educated
It would matter.

Working adults get hired over fresh college students because they bring not only a college degree, but years of hands-on experience to the table. Employers will hire the employee with years of practical experience over a new college grad any day of the week.

All other things being equal McFly.  Stop comparing apples and oranges.
Oh and by the way, not in all cases, there are several days of the week you would be wrong.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 09, 2009, 10:54:46 AM

Quote from: Skeleton on December 09, 2009, 10:52:36 AM

A qualification which can be attained in mere hours should not hold the status of a degree. Its an insult to people like me who studied hard for three years to get one.

Charter Oak, Excelsior, and Thomas Edison hand out degrees in under three hours. Their degrees are as worth as much as Harvard's, being Regionally Accredited.

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/archive/index.php/t-1213.html

Even if their degrees are worth as much as those from Harvard et al, they certainly shouldn't be. You present that as if you think Charter Oak, Excelsior and Thomas Edison (whatever they are, I always thought Edison was a dead guy) are worthwhile institutions. All I think when I look at that is that whoever is doing the accreditation of these places is not doing a proper job and should not be recognised as an accreditor. And Charter Oak, Excelsior and Thomas Edison are diploma mills.

They're not diploma mills. Competency based learning is a valid way of earning a degree.

Just look at certification programs in the Information Technology sector for instance. The A+, Security+, et cetera are all single test based curriculums which exist to capture your ability. IT Certifications are highly valued in industry.

A testing based degree curriculum is simply a different model of education, by necessity short and to the point.

All other things being equal McFly.  Stop comparing apples and oranges.
Oh and by the way, not in all cases, there are several days of the week you would be wrong.

Charter Oak only focuses its recruitment on adults with work experience. 18 year old high school graduates don't attend Charter Oak.

That's why employers would hire a Charter Oak graduate over a new college graduate. The Charter Oak graduate brings years of practical hands on experience and knows that rewards are determined by results.

Imagine I'm an employer that wants someone with a degree.
I have two identical candidates for the job, with one difference - one candidate got a degree from, say, City University, where they studied for three years. The other candidate got their degree from Parsibishop Wilmore college and was awarded it after three hours.
Who do I employ? I know what my choice would be. If employers are really choosing people who got a "degree" in three hours over people who spent years studying then those employers are morons.
You can leave out the issue of practical experience as that can equally apply to people with a proper degree. I have trained a student who has ten years of experience running her own international export business in Singapore, China and the Middle East before coming to do a three year degree course in her late thirties.

They're not diploma mills. Competency based learning is a valid way of earning a degree.

Just look at certification programs in the Information Technology sector for instance. The A+, Security+, et cetera are all single test based curriculums which exist to capture your ability. IT Certifications are highly valued in industry.

A testing based degree curriculum is simply a different model of education, by necessity short and to the point.

Certifications are not degrees or diplomas.  And, just like degrees, certifications can be highly over-rated.  I've worked in IT for a number of years without A+ certification and it's never been a handicap.  I've also seen guys that were A+ certified that were quite useless when a computer was put in front of them to fix.

Quote from: Its a Sphere on December 09, 2009, 01:02:13 PM

All other things being equal McFly.  Stop comparing apples and oranges.
Oh and by the way, not in all cases, there are several days of the week you would be wrong.

Charter Oak only focuses its recruitment on adults with work experience. 18 year old high school graduates don't attend Charter oak.

That's why employers would hire a Charter Oak graduate over a new college graduate. The Charter Oak graduate brings years of practical hands on experience and knows that rewards are determined by results.

Last time I checked Harvard grads go into the work force and obtain jobs.
People will hold more than one job in their lifetime.
Therefore a Harvard grad could with x years experience could be compared to a charter oak grad with x years experience.

Stop attempting to compare apples and oranges.

Imagine I'm an employer that wants someone with a degree.
I have two identical candidates for the job, with one difference - one candidate got a degree from, say, City University, where they studied for three years. The other candidate got their degree from Parsibishop Wilmore college and was awarded it after three hours.
Who do I employ? I know what my choice would be. If employers are really choosing people who got a "degree" in three hours over people who spent years studying then those employers are morons.
You can leave out the issue of practical experience as that can equally apply to people with a proper degree. I have trained a student who has ten years of experience running her own international export business in Singapore, China and the Middle East before coming to do a three year degree course in her late thirties.

No. Experience cannot be left out. Charter Oak's philosophy is that if you have the work experience you can take their competency tests to demonstrate what you know. Charter Oak graduates all have years of practical experience under their belts, and often have seven page resumes which detail their seasoned industry experience.

Charter Oak graduates are hired over new college grads because new college grads need to be trained from the ground up for a certain role since traditional colleges mainly focus on general ed. Those with experience require less training, having been in the industry doing the same job for many years.

Did you deliberately ignore my point that "new college grads" can have just as much experience as people going to Charter Oak or are you too thick to understand it?
You obviously think everyone who does a three year degree course goes there fresh out of high school. More evidence that you don't really run a private college at all but are truly a drive-thru operative.

Certifications are not degrees or diplomas.  And, just like degrees, certifications can be highly over-rated.  I've worked in IT for a number of years without A+ certification and it's never been a handicap.  I've also seen guys that were A+ certified that were quite useless when a computer was put in front of them to fix.

The A+ certification wouldn't be a handicap because an A+ certification is not an education.

It's a single test that you go and take at your nearest testing center. In regards to the A+ specifically, all it does is ensure that you grasp the basics. It's used as a filtering tool when employers shift through resumes. New college graduates often get them to make up for their lack of experience.

Did you deliberately ignore my point that "new college grads" can have just as much experience as people going to Charter Oak or are you too thick to understand it?

The vast majority of traditional graduates have no work experience. They are fresh-out-of-school college kids.

For 98% of working adults going back to school isn't even an option. You try supporting a household, working 9-5, while attending school full or even part time. Only non-traditional schools such as Charter Oak are options for them.

So what you're saying is the three hour degree is worth as much or more than the three year degree because the people that take it are far more likely to have other life skills to bring to future employment. In other words, nothing related to the degree itself at all then.
Thanks for clearing that up, Tom.  

To use an analogy, the fictional character of Hamlet is better looking than the fictional character of Henry V because Hamlet was played by Mel Gibson and Henry V was played by Kenneth Branagh. 

So what you're saying is the three hour degree is worth as much or more than the three year degree because the people that take it are far more likely to have other life skills to bring to future employment. In other words, nothing related to the degree itself at all then.
Thanks for clearing that up, Tom. 

At Charter Oak you've provided your own education. Charter Oak exists as an arbiter to ensure that you do know what you say you know.

I'm kind of confused now.  Is this school just going to hand out degrees to people who pass a test or is something going to be taught?

Also, will there be a flat earth cartography course?  Just wondering because it looks like there is a lack of experience out there.

It will be a learning school.

Parsibishop Wilmore College Final Degree Exam

Question 1: What shape is the earth? Round/Flat (delete as applicable)

Congratulations, you have a first class honours degree.

Charter Oak grads get hired over Ivy League grads all the time.

My BS meter just went off. You're going to have to back that claim up Tom.

It will be a learning school.

What type of students are you looking to teach?  High School Grads?

At Charter Oak you've provided your own education. Charter Oak exists as an arbiter to ensure that you do know what you say you know.

I think that we need to back up for a minute.  Charter Oak State College is a real (if non-traditional) college accredited by nationally recognized accreditation agencies.  In order to earn an Associates or Bachelor's degree from them, then you must complete the requirements, including a number of liberal arts credits.  In order to even enroll in Charter Oaks, you must have completed 9 credit hours from another properly accredited school.  Charter Oaks essentially takes course credits from other colleges along with on-line courses from their own programs and credit for work/life experience in order to qualify for the degree.  Charter Oaks can not bestow an Associates or Bachelor's degree for experience only.

Tom, Charter Oaks State College is a far cry from the FET barber college that you have in mind.

I think that we need to back up for a minute.  Charter Oak State College is a real (if non-traditional) college accredited by nationally recognized accreditation agencies.  In order to earn an Associates or Bachelor's degree from them, then you must complete the requirements, including a number of liberal arts credits.  In order to even enroll in Charter Oaks, you must have completed 9 credit hours from another properly accredited school.  Charter Oaks essentially takes course credits from other colleges along with on-line courses from their own programs and credit for work/life experience in order to qualify for the degree.  Charter Oaks can not bestow an Associates or Bachelor's degree for experience only.

It doesn't matter how they justify it. They still give out degrees for three hours of coursework, based on a single 140 question multiple choice test

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/archive/index.php/t-1213.html

I still think it's crackerjack diploma from a Mickey Mouse college. And if I think that, hundreds of other employers must think that too.

Quote from: markjo on December 09, 2009, 02:57:12 PM

I think that we need to back up for a minute.  Charter Oak State College is a real (if non-traditional) college accredited by nationally recognized accreditation agencies.  In order to earn an Associates or Bachelor's degree from them, then you must complete the requirements, including a number of liberal arts credits.  In order to even enroll in Charter Oaks, you must have completed 9 credit hours from another properly accredited school.  Charter Oaks essentially takes course credits from other colleges along with on-line courses from their own programs and credit for work/life experience in order to qualify for the degree.  Charter Oaks can not bestow an Associates or Bachelor's degree for experience only.

It doesn't matter how they justify it. They still give out degrees for three hours of coursework, based on a single 140 question multiple choice test

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/archive/index.php/t-1213.html

If you're referring to the OP of that link, she did not receive her degrees from Charter Oaks State College.  She got them from Excelsior College.  And that multiple choice test that you're referring to (the GRE) is a graduate school entrance exam similar to the SAT.  Apparently they allow waivers for some course work based on high percentile GRE scores.  However, the GRE alone will not earn you a degree.

I still think it's crackerjack diploma from a Mickey Mouse college. And if I think that, hundreds of other employers must think that too.

The college is Regionally Accredited. Just like Harvard.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 09, 2009, 03:39:26 PM

Quote from: markjo on December 09, 2009, 02:57:12 PM

I think that we need to back up for a minute.  Charter Oak State College is a real (if non-traditional) college accredited by nationally recognized accreditation agencies.  In order to earn an Associates or Bachelor's degree from them, then you must complete the requirements, including a number of liberal arts credits.  In order to even enroll in Charter Oaks, you must have completed 9 credit hours from another properly accredited school.  Charter Oaks essentially takes course credits from other colleges along with on-line courses from their own programs and credit for work/life experience in order to qualify for the degree.  Charter Oaks can not bestow an Associates or Bachelor's degree for experience only.

It doesn't matter how they justify it. They still give out degrees for three hours of coursework, based on a single 140 question multiple choice test

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/archive/index.php/t-1213.html

If you're referring to the OP of that link, she did not receive her degrees from Charter Oaks State College.  She got them from Excelsior College.  And that multiple choice test that you're referring to (the GRE) is a graduate school entrance exam similar to the SAT.  Apparently they allow waivers for some course work based on high percentile GRE scores.  However, the GRE alone will not earn you a degree.

Nope. Read the thread. She explains how to get your degree based on a single GRE test in under three hours.

It can be acquired from Excelsior, Charter Oak, or Thomas Edison in that manner.

Tom, there is much more to the job industry than simply having experience! You can do something, but you also need to know what your actually doing! I can teach someone how to fix a car in a 3 hour course, but with a longer time, I can teach them why the car needs to be fixed, and how each step in the process helps in such a matter. Your college would only take people with experience, which means that everything you can teach them in 3 hours they already likely know, defeating the purpose of your "college".

The reason places like Harvard are highly regarded is because they have reason to be. Their students learn more in their time there than you can teach them in a 3 hour course. Students go there to learn and develop a future, not just to get a quick degree.

If I were an employer, experience would not be the most important factor. I would look at the degrees, where they are from, and how far the person worked for them. Yes, I would look at experience, but I want to make sure the person I am employing knows why they need to do something, not just how, and the real college course takes the time to explain why. You cant teach the full "why" in a 3 hour course. You can't.

Tom, there is much more to the job industry than simply having experience! You can do something, but you also need to know what your actually doing! I can teach someone how to fix a car in a 3 hour course, but with a longer time, I can teach them why the car needs to be fixed, and how each step in the process helps in such a matter. Your college would only take people with experience, which means that everything you can teach them in 3 hours they already likely know, defeating the purpose of your "college".

The reason places like Harvard are highly regarded is because they have reason to be. Their students learn more in their time there than you can teach them in a 3 hour course. Students go there to learn and develop a future, not just to get a quick degree.

If I were an employer, experience would not be the most important factor. I would look at the degrees, where they are from, and how far the person worked for them. Yes, I would look at experience, but I want to make sure the person I am employing knows why they need to do something, not just how, and the real college course takes the time to explain why. You cant teach the full "why" in a 3 hour course. You can't.

I'm not proposing to start a 3 hour degree program.

Lurk more. Read carefully.

Nope. Read the thread. She explains how to get your degree based on a single GRE test in under three hours.

It can be acquired from Excelsior, Charter Oak, or Thomas Edison in that manner.

*sigh*

Excelsior College is the only institution to award enough credit for a GRE subject exam, to trigger second degree conferral based solely on one's performance in that exam.

And:

Have ETS send your GRE results to Excelsior College. When you receive your score (from ETS), and if it's above the 80th percentile, immediately enroll in Excelsior College (they will already have your GRE scores) and, in addition to the enrollment fee, pay the graduation fee, for you have already met the requirements for a second degree BS or BA - 30 credits in the concentration of which at least 15 must be upper division, you would have 18 UD + 12 LD for a total of 30 credits.

So in some cases, a high enough score on the GRE is enough to earn you a second degree.  However, you still need to earn the credits for the first degree.  Plus the fact that you only get the 30 credits if you score above the 80th percentile for the GRE.  I guess that means that about 80% of the people who take the GRE won't qualify for that second degree. 

To be honest, I'm not even sure why we're discussing those schools seeing as they are government supported Greek schools that you seem to despise so much.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 09, 2009, 08:38:47 PM

Nope. Read the thread. She explains how to get your degree based on a single GRE test in under three hours.

It can be acquired from Excelsior, Charter Oak, or Thomas Edison in that manner.

*sigh*

Quote from: http://forums.degreeinfo.com/archive/index.php/t-1213.html

Excelsior College is the only institution to award enough credit for a GRE subject exam, to trigger second degree conferral based solely on one's performance in that exam.

And:

Quote from: http://forums.degreeinfo.com/archive/index.php/t-1213.html

Have ETS send your GRE results to Excelsior College. When you receive your score (from ETS), and if it's above the 80th percentile, immediately enroll in Excelsior College (they will already have your GRE scores) and, in addition to the enrollment fee, pay the graduation fee, for you have already met the requirements for a second degree BS or BA - 30 credits in the concentration of which at least 15 must be upper division, you would have 18 UD + 12 LD for a total of 30 credits.

So in some cases, a high enough score on the GRE is enough to earn you a second degree.  However, you still need to earn the credits for the first degree.  Plus the fact that you only get the 30 credits if you score above the 80th percentile for the GRE.  I guess that means that about 80% of the people who take the GRE won't qualify for that second degree.  

Fine. Then it's Excelsior College where you can get your degree based on a single test in under three hours.

Excelsior is still a Regionally Accredited college, being the external studies college for the New York State University system. Which makes a three hour Excelsior degree from there as valuable as Harvard's.

It's not that 80 percent of students who take the test fail. You need an 80 percent and above on the GRE because the test is easy. Very easy.

How easy? Well, look at the GRE practice questions online: http://www.testprepreview.com/gre_practice.htm

Seems like something which would be expected of a GED.

There we have a Regionally Accredited college, one in the same league as Stanford, Yale and Harvard, which is passing out college degrees based on a single easy 140 question multiple choice test.

To be honest, I'm not even sure why we're discussing those schools seeing as they are government supported Greek schools that you seem to despise so much.

We're talking about what a diploma mill is and is not.

The university I am proposing is not a diploma mill because:

A.) We're not selling degrees. A curriculum is involved. Learning takes place.

B.) There are Regionally Accredited (the "gold" standard in accreditation) colleges which exist at lower quality levels.

Giving out college degrees to the public for easy, shoddy work, is what the Ancient Greeks already do. They call their easy 4-week and 3-hour degrees legitimate.

It's not that 80 percent of students who take the test fail. You need an 80 percent and above on the GRE because the test is easy. Very easy.

Check your terms, it most certainly is that 80 percent will fail to achieve the requirement of the second degree, in fact it is true by definition.
If 100 people took the test only 20 will recieve the full allotment of credits, the remaining 80 (or 80%) will not. 
If 100 people took the test and 5 score 100, 5 score 95% and above and 10 score 90% and above, your 80% score is a loser.

Credit is awarded on a sliding scale, from 3 credits for a score above the 35th percentile to 30 credits for a score above the 80th percentile. Increment rate is 3 credit hours per 5 percentile increase in score. The first 12 credits are awarded as lower division credits, and the rest as upper division credits. Thus a score above the 80th percentile yields 12 lower division credits and 18 upper division credits, for a total of 30 credits. The minimum requirements for a concentration is 30 credits with a minimum of 15 in the upper division. Therefore, passing a GRE subject exam above the 80th percentile satisfies concentration requirements, and all requirements for award of a second degree.

It's not that 80 percent of students who take the test fail. You need an 80 percent and above on the GRE because the test is easy. Very easy.

No Tom.  I didn't say that you needed to score an 80% on the GRE.  I said 80th percentile, as in you need to score better than 80% of the people that took the GRE.

There we have a Regionally Accredited college, one in the same league as Stanford, Yale and Harvard, which is passing out college degrees based on a single easy 140 question multiple choice test.

Tom, if you honestly think that Excelsior College is in the same league as Stanford, Yale or Harvard, then you are so out of touch with reality that it doesn't make any sense to continue this discussion.

You know, as much as I hate to say it, I am actually in sympathy with some of what Tom Bishop is saying.  If some kind of testing program can reliably determine that an individual truly understands both how and why to do things and can demonstrate full competence to fullfill the requirements of the job, what difference does it make whether or not they have been formally awarded degrees earned during actual attendance at a university or trade school?  There are a few rare individuals who have managed, through self study and hard work, to attain knowledge and competence that is equal to or better than that of many graduates from even some of the best universities.  Why should they be required to waste 4 or more years and great sums of money attending a formal institution of learning, only to be taught what they had already learned on their own, before they can be awarded a degree or be hired to do something they were already more than competent to do?

Besides, I have met individuals with rather advanced college degrees earned from respected universities who are remarkably ignorant of even some rather basic facts, and surprisingly incompetent and ineffective.

Besides, I have met individuals with rather advanced college degrees earned from respected universities who are remarkably ignorant of even some rather basic facts, and surprisingly incompetent and ineffective.

Like the fact that the earth is not flat?

Quote from: Rational U.S. Viking on December 10, 2009, 04:11:52 PM

Besides, I have met individuals with rather advanced college degrees earned from respected universities who are remarkably ignorant of even some rather basic facts, and surprisingly incompetent and ineffective.

Like the fact that the earth is not flat?

I certainly agree that Tom is ignorant about many basic scientific facts (assuming that he actually holds the opinions he claims to hold).  I am not at all certain, however, that he actually has any of the degrees or scientific training he claims or implies that he has.  So I don't regard him as a true example of what I am talking about.