Idea: Start a University

When the employer checks the university for accreditation the employer will see that the university is accredited by a private accrediting agency.

The wheels can't "lock up" on scalloped roads.

And if you think that there's a problem with not turning, you're not thinking far enough out of the box.

Our trains don't turn left or right, and they have significant problems screeching to a halt when a track is bent or when the constructor sees something on the tracks. Many lives have been lost from train catastrophes. If railroads were scalloped, or better yet sawtoothed, the constructor could stop at the drop of a hat. That's an instance where the shape of the tracks could have saved countless lives lost in train accidents.

As far as regular roads go, they could operate the same way as train networks do. Transformable roads, switches, and forks. If it were choreographed with enough engineering, there would probably be less annoying traffic in cities.(Try thinking about all of the things that cars need to do that trains don't and realize how, on a large scale, this would not work.)

Our trains don't turn left or right, and they have significant problems screeching to a halt when a track is bent or when the constructor sees something on the tracks

A track built into the ground is static. It cannot bend.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 02, 2009, 05:51:46 AM

Quote from: d00gz on December 02, 2009, 05:44:16 AM

You will find that most people don't go to university just to learn. For most people, university is a step along the way to where they want to be in the end. And it seems that the "Zetetic University" won't actually help with that, since the degree is essentially useless.

Who says it would be useless?

Colleges have the right to teach whatever they want in their curriculum. Degrees simply represent a course of study and nothing more.

Employers do not sign up to college courses to "doublecheck" the content to see if it matches up with their belief system.

Yes they do, its called accreditation and dialog from a professional organization. Many teaching positions in engineering school are held temporarily by experts who work in industry.

Private accrediting companies will get you nowhere with professions. Professional societies like Medicine, Engineering, and Law exist because their practice requires advanced study. Hence it is important to verify if a claimed professional has completed said study and has relevant experience. People pretending to be doctors tend to produce a lot more messy dead corpses than the real ones. Fake engineers tend to produce plans that end up killing people or wasting huge money, and hence lawyers are called in to transfer money. People pretending to be lawyers will be found out for not knowing how a trial should proceed and quickly put in jail.

Try sticking a rock in a gear train and watch how that monster fail pans out.  What happens when something gets lodged in the track?

Willy, the point i was making is that his curriculum is severely flawed, or did you miss that point?

He's planning on teaching things, which are, put simply, wrong. He's talking about trying to teach people to think for themselves, all the while teaching them what he believes, which is utter nonsense.

Understand?

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Try sticking a rock in a gear train and watch how that monster fail pans out.  What happens when something gets lodged in the track?

You're assuming that these gear tracks are large.

They could be built like a bike chain mounted along the center of an existing railroad track. Imagine an existing train track with a large bike chain mounted into the center. The train can still have round wheels, but in the center there can also be a rotating gears connected firmly to the structure of the train. When the train wants to create a sudden stop its breaks are applied to the gears. Once the gears down the center stop, the train stops.

For stress problems, again there are high tensile materials which are made on a mass scale.  If they're too expensive, well, that's why projects like this exist to expand production and reduce costs.

Quote from: d00gz on December 07, 2009, 05:34:02 AM

Willy, the point i was making is that his curriculum is severely flawed, or did you miss that point?

He's planning on teaching things, which are, put simply, wrong. He's talking about trying to teach people to think for themselves, all the while teaching them what he believes, which is utter nonsense.

Understand?

And no doubt students would be asked to draw their own conclusions and argue their point, displaying critical engagement with the subject matter. Just as they would be in any arts degree program.


Very few lecturers agree with the philosophy of Aristotle, but that doesn't mean they don't teach Aristotelian philosophy at university. The point of most arts degrees is to not regurgitate your lecture notes, but to demonstrate the ability to form your own opinions and argue them successfully. The goal of such an exercise is to get you thinking, not to get you thinking one particular thing. I seriously doubt that the module Tom is proposing will amount to nothing more than an engineering module about wheels.

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Private accrediting companies will get you nowhere with professions. Professional societies like Medicine, Engineering, and Law exist because their practice requires advanced study. Hence it is important to verify if a claimed professional has completed said study and has relevant experience. People pretending to be doctors tend to produce a lot more messy dead corpses than the real ones. Fake engineers tend to produce plans that end up killing people or wasting huge money, and hence lawyers are called in to transfer money. People pretending to be lawyers will be found out for not knowing how a trial should proceed and quickly put in jail.

A degree does not give you the right to practice medicine. You must be licensed to practice medicine. It doesn't matter if your medical degree if from Harvard University or Bill's Back Yard Medical College.

Lawyers cannot practice law without passing the Bar Exam. Teachers cannot teach without their teaching license. The school they get their degree from, and how they got it, is irrelevant.

But that's beside the point because we won't be giving out degrees which require licensure as most states require colleges to seek permission from the licensing boards before doing so.

Uh, doogz, was it your express intention to miss the point entirely, or are you just engaging in the kind of (if you'll pardon the pun) derailment you frequently accuse FE'ers of? Either way, take the engineering debate elsewhere. The point is that thinking beyond assumed and accepted truths is often a worthwhile exercise, and that something like a square wheel (which might seem obviously stupid at first sight) may have merit.


In any event, I want the discussion back on the degree program. If you want to discuss the relative merits of round and square wheels, either make a thread in S&AS, or enroll when the university opens.

Quote from: Lord Wilmore on December 07, 2009, 05:45:26 AM

What has an arts degree got to do with this?

Art is a form of expression that can be appreciated and analysed in different ways. Engineering is not. Something either works, or it doesn't.

Uh, what kind of degree do you think this would be?

Quote from: Its a Sphere on December 07, 2009, 05:50:17 AM

To be fair engineers are tasked to "think outside the box" far more than the norm.  Ideas have to meet numerous performance, cost, logistical and timing targets, so attempting to lecture an engineer on the merits of thinking out of the box are probably unnecessary. 

TB threw out the point of dealing with thinking outside the box on "why square wheels are better than round" as a part of the cirriculum, so debating the subject is debating the cirriculum.  I would definately like to see the subject debated, though I don't see that there is much more to say.

It seems to be a zetetic way of think outside the box, "why square wheels are better than round", present one exclusive case where it has a characteristic that looks better, claim square wheels are superior, move on, restate in the future "since we have conclusively proven square wheels are better than round", slightly modify it and proceed to use it to try to use it to prove something else(while neglecting to note the modification invalidates the first case), claim another proof for square wheel superiority, wash-rinse-repeat.

I understand all that, but you have to appreciate that this was just the title of the course. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that Tom does not intend the square wheels vs round wheels debate to be the only thing under discussion in that 'class'. More than likely, it would be the starting point for a wider discussion.

Quote from: Its a Sphere on December 07, 2009, 05:50:17 AM

It seems to be a zetetic way of think outside the box, "why square wheels are better than round", present one exclusive case where it has a characteristic that looks better, claim square wheels are superior, move on, restate in the future "since we have conclusively proven square wheels are better than round", slightly modify it and proceed to use it to try to use it to prove something else(while neglecting to note the modification invalidates the first case), claim another proof for square wheel superiority, wash-rinse-repeat.

I understand all that, but you have to appreciate that this was just the title of the course. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that Tom does not intend the square wheels vs round wheels debate to be the only thing under discussion in that 'class'. More than likely, it would be the starting point for a wider discussion.

In any event, I want the discussion back on the degree program. If you want to discuss the relative merits of round and square wheels, either make a thread in S&AS, or enroll when the university opens.

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So sending people pieces of paper in the mail with "Diploma from the University College of Bakelite, Alaska" is less profitable than running a fully tutored education program.

Yes. It's the difference between selling hand-held TVs for a hundred a pop and selling large screen plasmas for five thousand a pop. The large screen plasma manufacturer will make more money in any given month.

There won't be any problem with a lack of students.

And if the price is right, or very right, people will sign up for anything.

Accreditation organizations are private organizations. Any one of us can start an accrediting organization tomorrow and accredit whomever we want.

"Accreditation" is review of the quality of higher education institutions and programs. In the United States, accreditation is a major way that students, families, government officials, and the press know that an institution or program provides a quality education.

Whether a college, university, or program is accredited is important:

    * Students who want federal (and sometimes state) grants and loans need to attend a college, university, or program that is accredited.
    * Employers ask if a college, university, or program is accredited before deciding to provide tuition assistance to current employees, evaluating the credentials of new employees, or making a charitable contribution.
    * The federal government requires that a college, university, or program be accredited in order to be eligible for federal grants and loans or other federal funds.
    * State governments require that a college, university, or program be accredited when they make state funds available to students or institutions and when they allow students to sit for state licensure examinations in some professional fields.

No Tom, you can't.  Accreditation agencies for higher education are regulated by the government.  You may or may not have heard of bunch of nutters known as the Dept. of Education (a cabinet level agency).

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No Tom, you can't.  Accreditation agencies for higher education are regulated by the government.  You may or may not have heard of bunch of nutters known as the Dept. of Education (a cabinet level agency).

Regional Accreditation agencies and National Accreditation Agencies are all private groups of educators. Their involvement with the government extends only to where the government "recognizes" certain accrediting agencies over others.

There are non-recognized private college accreditors which accredit private career schools. They are accredited for whatever the accreditation agency wants to see in a degree program, but the school cannot get federal loans for its students or public funds for its upkeep. They can call themselves "accredited" just as much as any other school can.

Accreditors are simply private groups of educators. Accreditation isn't government-run.

Nothing will ever be done about a theory on a debate forum. We can talk and talk until we're blue in the face, but nothing will be done. The well experienced among us know very well that science never progresses through debate. But how does science progress then?

The answer: Science progresses through the schools. Through research universities like Harvard which have billion dollar endowments.

In order for the Zetetic philosophy to take off we must start a school. This will bring both publicity and engender good research. The truth of the matter is that no one wants to do research unless there is something in it for them. By rewarding research with college credits and college degrees, there is strong incentive to get things done and move forward.

It is little known that Plato got his teachings and philosophies off the ground by starting a college. Many of the greatest Greek minds attended Plato's college. Plato's brand of colleges spread far and wide, becoming the dominant force of education in Ancient Greece. Today, after thousands of years, Plato's colleges still remain dominate in the field of education. At school we learn how to categorize animals with Aristotile's classifications, how to mix words with Plato's philosophy, how to identify tissue with Ancient Greek and Latin, and how to calculate using Greek math. For all intents and purposes the modern University remains the University of the Ancient Greeks.

Let there be a University which is different from all others. The philosophy of the Zetetics will live on to educate a new generation, to start science afresh from the ground up, where theory and hypothesis will not be tolerated as truth, and where ideas must be supplemented by test, trial and experiment.

At the Undergraduate Level students will learn about Gravity and the Equivalence Principal, about Astronomy, about perspective and about the world around them. Newcomers are Undergraduates, learning things afresh.

At the Graduate Level students will contribute something to the school. A reproduction of an experiment in the literature, or a dissertation on a topic of interest. Seasoned members are Graduates, with enough understanding to contribute something to the cause.

Eventually, in the distant future, the University could branch out away from Flat Earth Theory and focus on the fundamental philosophy of Zeteticism, to begin other parts of science afresh.

But how can this sort of thing attract students away from traditional schools, you ask?

Well, degrees can be given out in weeks rather than years. And for a price figure significantly lower than the tens, or even hundreds, of thousands the Ancient Greeks are charging for theirs.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 02, 2009, 04:29:42 AM

Nothing will ever be done about a theory on a debate forum. We can talk and talk until we're blue in the face, but nothing will be done. The well experienced among us know very well that science never progresses through debate. But how does science progress then?

The answer: Science progresses through the schools. Through research universities like Harvard which have billion dollar endowments.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 07, 2009, 10:16:58 AM

Quote

No Tom, you can't.  Accreditation agencies for higher education are regulated by the government.  You may or may not have heard of bunch of nutters known as the Dept. of Education (a cabinet level agency).

Regional Accreditation agencies and National Accreditation Agencies are all private groups of educators. Their involvement with the government extends only to where the government "recognizes" certain accrediting agencies over others.

There are non-recognized private college accreditors which accredit private career schools. They are accredited for whatever the accreditation agency wants to see in a degree program, but the school cannot get federal loans for its students or public funds for its upkeep. They can call themselves "accredited" just as much as any other school can.

Accreditors are simply private groups of educators. Accreditation isn't government-run.

Sure, they can call themselves accredited just like Leo Ferrari could call himself the Archbishop of Canturbery.  That doesn't mean that anyone is going to take the school or Leo seriously.

Setting up your own agency for the sole purpose of giving your own private college accreditation is most likely a serious conflict of interest (at the very least).  I also seriously doubt that any legitimate accreditation agency would risk their reputation on a school such as the one that you propose.

The government doesn't accredit everyone.

http://www.msche.org/

These guys accredit many respected Universities. (quick google)

IMPORTANT QUESTIONS ABOUT ACCREDITATION,
DEGREE MILLS AND ACCREDITATION MILLS

In their quest for higher education and training, students and the public in the United States sometimes encounter ?degree mills? ? dubious providers of educational offerings or operations that offer certificates and degrees that may be considered bogus. They may also encounter ?accreditation mills? ? dubious providers of accreditation and quality assurance that may offer a certification of quality of institutions without a proper basis.

Degree mills and accreditation mills mislead and harm. In the United States, degrees and certificates from mills may not be acknowledged by other institutions when students seek to transfer or go to graduate school. Employers may not acknowledge degrees and certificates from degree mills when providing tuition assistance for continuing education. "Accreditation" from an accreditation mill can mislead students and the public about the quality of an institution. In the presence of degree mills and accreditation mills, students may spend a good deal of money and receive neither an education nor a useable credential.

Quote from: Johannes on December 07, 2009, 02:27:50 PM

The government doesn't accredit everyone.

http://www.msche.org/

These guys accredit many respected Universities. (quick google)

Like Tom said, the government doesn't give accreditation to anyone.  The government does, however, help set the standards that accreditation agencies must check for and enforce when they grant accreditation.  Accreditation agencies must themselves be recognized in order to have any credibility.

Quote from: http://www.chea.org/degreemills/default.htm

IMPORTANT QUESTIONS ABOUT ACCREDITATION,
DEGREE MILLS AND ACCREDITATION MILLS

In their quest for higher education and training, students and the public in the United States sometimes encounter ?degree mills? ? dubious providers of educational offerings or operations that offer certificates and degrees that may be considered bogus. They may also encounter ?accreditation mills? ? dubious providers of accreditation and quality assurance that may offer a certification of quality of institutions without a proper basis.

Degree mills and accreditation mills mislead and harm. In the United States, degrees and certificates from mills may not be acknowledged by other institutions when students seek to transfer or go to graduate school. Employers may not acknowledge degrees and certificates from degree mills when providing tuition assistance for continuing education. "Accreditation" from an accreditation mill can mislead students and the public about the quality of an institution. In the presence of degree mills and accreditation mills, students may spend a good deal of money and receive neither an education nor a useable credential.

Dedicated to Educational Excellence &
Improvement since 1919
The Middle States Commission on Higher Education is the unit of the Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools that accredits degree-granting colleges and universities in the Middle States region, which includes Delaware, the District of Columbia, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and several locations internationally.
The Commission is a voluntary, non-governmental, membership association that defines, maintains, and promotes educational excellence across institutions with diverse missions, student populations, and resources. It examines each institution as a whole, rather than specific programs within institutions.
For more information, refer to the Commission's statements of its mission, vision, and core values, as well as several FAQs on this site.

No they don't. The government doesn't set any standards.

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Dedicated to Educational Excellence &
Improvement since 1919
The Middle States Commission on Higher Education is the unit of the Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools that accredits degree-granting colleges and universities in the Middle States region, which includes Delaware, the District of Columbia, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and several locations internationally.
The Commission is a voluntary, non-governmental, membership association that defines, maintains, and promotes educational excellence across institutions with diverse missions, student populations, and resources. It examines each institution as a whole, rather than specific programs within institutions.
For more information, refer to the Commission's statements of its mission, vision, and core values, as well as several FAQs on this site.

Database of Institutions Accredited By Recognized
U.S. Accrediting Organizations

Middle States Commission on Higher Education (MSCHE)
    Elizabeth H. Sibolski, Acting President
    3624 Market Street
    Philadelphia, PA 19104
    Phone: 267-284-5000
    Fax: 215-662-5501
    Email: [email protected]
    Web: www.msche.org

Recognized by the Council for Higher Education Accreditation and the U.S. Department of Education.
The institutions listed here have been accredited by this accrediting organization as of July 2008.

*sigh*  So non-government agencies don't cooperate with the government to set standards?