James's theory on dinosaurs

Have you forgotten where you are?

Bear in mind, the "theories" which require dismissal in order to assent to the historical facts I have identified are those wild fantasies of the same geological elite which believe the Earth to be a spinning, whirling space ball.

If you deny the plain evidence regarding the history of ancient dinosaurs, you are required to pontificate in contravention of empirical fact and simple common sense.

Quote from: John Davis on March 11, 2011, 09:06:53 PM

Saying we understand ancient reptilian brains because we understand human brains is akin to saying dinosaurs could build boats because we can.

How can you even attempt to draw that conclusion?

Saying we can understand the cognitive capacity of ancient dinosaur brains because we understand neurology is akin is saying we understand how dinosaurs digested food because we understand gastroenterology.

We understand how evolution works, therefore, modern dinosaurs should resemble how the ancient ones work.

In order to make this one theory of migrating, boat making dinosaurs work, you have to pretty much deny a handful of other established theories and sciences.

Except we only have a rudimentary understanding of neuroscience.   And yes, the same holds true of gastoentrerology.  We have no idea based off our evidence how dinosaurs digested food.

Heres a quote from wikipedia that highlites a few of the reasons neuroscience is still a young baby science:

For example, neuroscientists have yet to fully explain the neural basis of consciousness, learning, memory, perception, sensation, and sleep. Several questions regarding the development and evolution of the brain remain unsolved.

Development and evolution of the brain is certainly key here.  As is the basic lack of a neural basis for consciousness, learning, memory, and other basic brain functions.

If you deny the plain evidence regarding the history of ancient dinosaurs, you are required to pontificate in contravention of empirical fact and simple common sense.

Please do let us know when you plan to present some of this evidence. I am quite eager to see it!

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on March 11, 2011, 09:54:05 AM

Quote from: John Davis on March 11, 2011, 09:51:07 AM

I don't know that we understand how brains generally work.  

So you deny neurology and neuroscience exist?

Quote from: John Davis on March 11, 2011, 09:51:07 AM

I also don't know the accuracy of phrenology even in other species, let alone one so alien to us as dinosaurs.

Just because you personally do not know it does not mean humanity as a whole does not. That is like the Krebs Cycle may or may not exist because you do not understand how it works.

So you hold phrenology is valid?  That is against what "humanity as a whole" knows.  At best you can say phrenology is invalid but what we know about skulls of animals and the leaps of logic we make due to that is valid.

Surely neurology and neuroscience exist, but whether they understand "how brains basically work" has yet to be shown by you or the sciences involved.  

Saying we understand ancient reptilian brains because we understand human brains is akin to saying dinosaurs could build boats because we can.

Who said they hold phrenology valid? It's safe to say that there are not 27 organs in the brain controlling random things like "can murder" and bumps on the skull show how much we use said organs.

Saying we can understand the cognitive capacity of ancient dinosaur brains because we understand neurology is akin is saying we understand how dinosaurs digested food because we understand gastroenterology.

How many ancient dinosaur brains have we found again?

We understand how evolution works, therefore, modern dinosaurs should resemble how the ancient ones work.

First of all, that is not necessarily so. Secondly, why is it that this argument is valid when you want to say dinosaurs couldn't build boats because modern avian dinosaurs can't, but isn't valid when we want to say ancient dinosaurs may have been as or more intelligent than modern avian dinosaurs? You can't have your cake and eat it.

The line of argument is even more seriously flawed; modern dinosaurs can build boats.

The line of argument is even more seriously flawed; modern dinosaurs can build boats.

You have yet to prove that, though.

The line of argument is even more seriously flawed; modern dinosaurs can build boats.

Even if modern dinosaurs can build boats (floating nests), that does not necessarily mean that ancient dinosaurs had the same ability.

The line of argument is even more seriously flawed; modern dinosaurs can build boats.

Indeed; I avoid the word 'boat' myself as it seems to produce a great deal of consternation among our resident globularists. That avian dinosaurs can build river vessels (for example) is not in doubt:





Indeed, some avian dinosaur cultures even exhibit an appreciation for purely aesthetic architecture.

Just because if floats, that doesn't make it a boat (or a vessel).

Also, something that floats on calm water such as a lake or river may not necessarily float on the ocean.

Even if modern dinosaurs can build boats (floating nests), that does not necessarily mean that ancient dinosaurs had the same ability.

Like I said, globularists need to make up their minds. Either you agree comparisons with modern avian dinosaurs are valid (in which case that is the subject that requires debate), or you think such comparisons aren't valid (in which case the debate is about the validity of such comparisons). You cannot simultaneously accept and reject modern avian dinosaurs as a valid basis for comparison and conjecture.

Just because if floats, that doesn't make it a boat (or a vessel).

And what would make it a boat? And putting that aside, even if it isn't a boat, surely the capacity required to build a floating structure is identical to the capacity required to build a boat, wouldn't you say?

Also, something that floats on calm water such as a lake or river may not necessarily float on the ocean.

What? I'm certain such structures would float on the ocean. Whether they would stay afloat for long in choppier waters is another question, but you could quite reasonably ask the same question of many human boats. Clearly these vessels are not designed for oceanic travel, and it would be a waste of the dinosaur's precious resources to 'over engineer' utterly redundant structural features into the vessel's design.

Quote from: markjo on March 14, 2011, 07:04:59 AM

Even if modern dinosaurs can build boats (floating nests), that does not necessarily mean that ancient dinosaurs had the same ability.

Like I said, globularists need to make up their minds. Either you agree comparisons with modern avian dinosaurs are valid (in which case that is the subject that requires debate), or you think such comparisons aren't valid (in which case the debate is about the validity of such comparisons). You cannot simultaneously accept and reject modern avian dinosaurs as a valid basis for comparison and conjecture.

Modern avian dinosaurs may share some characteristics with ancient dinosaurs.  I have yet to see any evidence that building floating nests is one of them.

Quote from: markjo on March 14, 2011, 07:53:09 AM

Just because if floats, that doesn't make it a boat (or a vessel).

And what would make it a boat? And putting that aside, even if it isn't a boat, surely the capacity required to build a floating structure is identical to the capacity required to build a boat, wouldn't you say?

Boats are designed to travel in the water.  Buoys, soccer balls and rubber duckies all float, but I doubt that anyone would reasonably consider any of them to be boats.  In the same way, I doubt that any reasonable person would call a floating nest a boat, unless it was shown that the builder of said nest built it for the purpose of traveling by water.

Are there dinosaurs on Flat-Earth?

Are there dinosaurs on Flat-Earth?

FYI, modern avian dinosaurs = birds

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on March 11, 2011, 10:48:49 PM

Saying we can understand the cognitive capacity of ancient dinosaur brains because we understand neurology is akin is saying we understand how dinosaurs digested food because we understand gastroenterology.

How many ancient dinosaur brains have we found again?

Irrelevant. Finding the actual brain is not required in brain allometry or rating a species EQ.

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on March 11, 2011, 10:48:49 PM

We understand how evolution works, therefore, modern dinosaurs should resemble how the ancient ones work.

First of all, that is not necessarily so. Secondly, why is it that this argument is valid when you want to say dinosaurs couldn't build boats because modern avian dinosaurs can't, but isn't valid when we want to say ancient dinosaurs may have been as or more intelligent than modern avian dinosaurs? You can't have your cake and eat it.

When have I stated they cannot be as intellegent as modern dinosaurs? I am saying that they most likely are not drastically more intellegent than the modern dinosaurs.

As Markjo has pointed out, it has yet to be proven that modern avian dinosaurs can build "boats". Just because it floats or looks like it is floating does not mean it can be used for transportation. I would like to see a picture of a dinosaur traveling down a river, or voyaging an ocean in such a boat, not a picture of one that is in a pond in which the nest could actually be just resting on something else.

Quote from: IAMSAM on November 09, 2009, 11:15:08 AM

Just because Robosteve is not around makes sky mirrors no longer exsist?

Exactly. Just as when James is not around the colonial dinosaurs no longer exist.

\
Just a quick Question since the above quote's is  the first post in this thread where can I find and read about James's theory on Dino's???

As Markjo has pointed out, it has yet to be proven that modern avian dinosaurs can build "boats". Just because it floats or looks like it is floating does not mean it can be used for transportation. I would like to see a picture of a dinosaur traveling down a river, or voyaging an ocean in such a boat, not a picture of one that is in a pond in which the nest could actually be just resting on something else.

Not to mention the fact that the birds would need some way of tethering their "boats" so that they wouldn't float away while the bird is out looking for food.

Irrelevant. Finding the actual brain is not required in brain allometry or rating a species EQ.

we can understand the cognitive capacity of ancient dinosaur brains because we understand neurology

Sorry, since when are either of those regarded as neurology?

When have I stated they cannot be as intellegent as modern dinosaurs? I am saying that they most likely are not drastically more intellegent than the modern dinosaurs.

Based on what? All I've seen are non sequiturs and poorly phrased conjecture. Furthermore, even if we assume that they aren't "drastically more intelligent than . . . modern dinosaurs", I don't see how that problematizes the theory. How about a cogent argument?

As Markjo has pointed out, it has yet to be proven that modern avian dinosaurs can build "boats".

I don't think anyone here claims to have proven anything, and I don't think anyone claims that definitive proof is possible.

Just because it floats or looks like it is floating does not mean it can be used for transportation. I would like to see a picture of a dinosaur traveling down a river, or voyaging an ocean in such a boat, not a picture of one that is in a pond in which the nest could actually be just resting on something else.

First of all, it's well established that the nests of Grebes and some other dinosaurs are free-floating, and that other water-nests are usually positioned on a foundation which is itself built by the dinosaurs.


Furthermore, contemporary dinosaurs do not need need boats, as they are the dinosauric embodiment of the Nietzschean ?bermensch; a race that has overcome itself, and acheived the synthesis of Apollonian and Dionysian being through contemplation and construction, song and dance. That they do not build boats does not indicate that they cannot build boats, but rather that they do not want or need to build boats. That they possess the capacity to build boat-like structures and far more complex architecture is clear, as is the existence of a dinosauric culture and aesthetic.

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on March 14, 2011, 11:46:37 AM

Irrelevant. Finding the actual brain is not required in brain allometry or rating a species EQ.

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on March 11, 2011, 10:48:49 PM

we can understand the cognitive capacity of ancient dinosaur brains because we understand neurology

Sorry, since when are either of those regarded as neurology?

Really? Because neurology is study of how the brain functions?

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on March 14, 2011, 11:46:37 AM

When have I stated they cannot be as intellegent as modern dinosaurs? I am saying that they most likely are not drastically more intellegent than the modern dinosaurs.

Based on what? All I've seen are non sequiturs and poorly phrased conjecture. Furthermore, even if we assume that they aren't "drastically more intelligent than . . . modern dinosaurs", I don't see how that problematizes the theory. How about a cogent argument?

Do explain.

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on March 14, 2011, 11:46:37 AM

As Markjo has pointed out, it has yet to be proven that modern avian dinosaurs can build "boats".

I don't think anyone here claims to have proven anything, and I don't think anyone claims that definitive proof is possible.

 

Yes, but you have not given any reason to think that dinosaurs building boats is even reasonably plausible. Your entire "evidence" as to justify migrating dinosaurs over continental drift is "because you cannot prove they didn't do it".

That is not a valid argument.

Furthermore, contemporary dinosaurs do not need need boats, as they are the dinosauric embodiment of the Nietzschean ?bermensch; a race that has overcome itself, and acheived the synthesis of Apollonian and Dionysian being through contemplation and construction, song and dance. That they do not build boats does not indicate that they cannot build boats, but rather that they do not want or need to build boats. That they possess the capacity to build boat-like structures and far more complex architecture is clear, as is the existence of a dinosauric culture and aesthetic.

What the hell?

 

Quote from: Lord Wilmore on March 14, 2011, 03:22:48 PM

Sorry, since when are either of those regarded as neurology?

Really? Because neurology is study of how the brain functions?

I'm not sure if this is an answer in the form of a question or just a question. In any event, neurology is not the study of how the brain functions (though that is an aspect of it), and studying how the brain functions is not the same as studying the size/allometry of brains, or (more to the point) the size of skulls.

Do explain.

Explain? Your arguments don't make sense. See above for an example.

Yes, but you have not given any reason to think that dinosaurs building boats is even reasonably plausible. Your entire "evidence" as to justify migrating dinosaurs over continental drift is "because you cannot prove they didn't do it".

That is not a valid argument.

We have also presented a wealth of evidence that dinosaurs possess the necessary faculties to engage in the building of complex structures, including many that are buoyant. Indeed, I imagine almost everyone here has observed the fruits of dinosauric labour at some point in their lives. Moreover, a range of studies have concluded that dinosaurs are amongst the most intelligent of all living creatures, and that they possess remarkable problem-solving ability. This makes it more than "remotely plausible" that they could build ocean-going vessels. Stop leaving out the bits you don't like.

Quote from: Lord Wilmore on March 14, 2011, 03:22:48 PM

Furthermore, contemporary dinosaurs do not need need boats, as they are the dinosauric embodiment of the Nietzschean ?bermensch; a race that has overcome itself, and acheived the synthesis of Apollonian and Dionysian being through contemplation and construction, song and dance. That they do not build boats does not indicate that they cannot build boats, but rather that they do not want or need to build boats. That they possess the capacity to build boat-like structures and far more complex architecture is clear, as is the existence of a dinosauric culture and aesthetic.

What the hell?

 

1. Read a book.

2. Look out your window.

3. Failing that, pick up a David Attenborough box-set.

We have also presented a wealth of evidence that dinosaurs possess the necessary faculties to engage in the building of complex structures...

I'm sorry, but I've missed this, could you link me to the wealth of evidence please?

Furthermore, contemporary dinosaurs do not need need boats, as they are the dinosauric embodiment of the Nietzschean ?bermensch; a race that has overcome itself, and acheived the synthesis of Apollonian and Dionysian being through contemplation and construction, song and dance. That they do not build boats does not indicate that they cannot build boats, but rather that they do not want or need to build boats. That they possess the capacity to build boat-like structures and far more complex architecture is clear, as is the existence of a dinosauric culture and aesthetic.

This is truly excellent.

After sixty pages, this thread is quite frankly laughable.  You have done nothing but make baseless assumptions and wildly extrapolate.

There is not a single shred of reputable evidence that dinosaurs were anything but wild animals, and not a single qualified geologist who would support your claims.

Review the physical evidence, then come back and theorise.

We have also presented a wealth of evidence that dinosaurs possess the necessary faculties to engage in the building of complex structures, including many that are buoyant. Indeed, I imagine almost everyone here has observed the fruits of dinosauric labour at some point in their lives. Moreover, a range of studies have concluded that dinosaurs are amongst the most intelligent of all living creatures, and that they possess remarkable problem-solving ability. This makes it more than "remotely plausible" that they could build ocean-going vessels. Stop leaving out the bits you don't like.

Where did you represent such evidence? Do you have ancient fossilized crafts capable of carrying several ton dinosaurs?

So modern dinosaurs can build boat-like structures. How is that evidence that their ancestors could?

You are making completely baseless conclusions just because it supports your theory.

Your logic is tantamount to saying:

Humans can build helicopters, therefore, that must mean that Maelestes Gobiensis (A 70 million year old ancestor) must have been capable of doing this too. After all, us humans are really just modern shrew people! These shrews no doubt also had an advanced society, and had thinkers likened to Nietzsche and Socrates! It also conclusively appears to me that these shrews made mosaics of the people they venerated. These mosaics could have been crafted from stones, just like how we do today. I see no reason why you doubt the shrews could not have done these things, you have no evidence to the contrary!

After sixty pages, this thread is quite frankly laughable.  You have done nothing but make baseless assumptions and wildly extrapolate.

There is not a single shred of reputable evidence that dinosaurs were anything but wild animals, and not a single qualified geologist who would support your claims.

Review the physical evidence, then come back and theorise.

You should bear in mind that this is, in fact, not serious business.

don't feed the trolls.

There's no way a sane individual could actually think that we have so much data on the thought power of dinos

don't feed the trolls.

Who's trolling?

There's no way a sane individual could actually think that we have so much data on the thought power of dinos

Oh. You're trolling.

Quote from: Thevoiceofreason on March 14, 2011, 09:41:18 PM

don't feed the trolls.

Who's trolling?

Quote from: Thevoiceofreason on March 14, 2011, 09:41:18 PM

There's no way a sane individual could actually think that we have so much data on the thought power of dinos

Oh. You're trolling.

So tell me, what evidence do you have that Dino's have that kind of intellect?