Abortion

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Parsifal

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #600 on: August 25, 2009, 02:16:18 PM »
Nothing can be known for sure, but there is strong evidence for and against sentience depending on the subjects.

Any sufficiently complex insentient system would be indistinguishable from a sentient one. As far as I can tell, there is no difference between myself being an anomaly in the human race - and Earthbound life in general - where everybody else is just an unknowing machine, and every other creature with a developed nervous system in the world being just as sentient as myself.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Soze

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #601 on: August 25, 2009, 02:22:23 PM »
Well I'm trying to establish rights that apply to a system that allows for sentience. A rock, a stalk of celery, and a single cell do not have the capacity for sentience. A grown human who obviously can be sentient, and probably is, would be granted rights accordingly.

However, I think sentience can be evidenced by behavior, ability to learn, and ability to apply past experiences to new and different situations 'correctly'.

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Parsifal

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #602 on: August 25, 2009, 02:24:22 PM »
Well I'm trying to establish rights that apply to a system that allows for sentience. A rock, a stalk of celery, and a single cell do not have the capacity for sentience. A grown human who obviously can be sentient, and probably is, would be granted rights accordingly.

I have no disputes there.

However, I think sentience can be evidenced by behavior, ability to learn, and ability to apply past experiences to new and different situations 'correctly'.

I don't. In fact, I don't see that sentience is required for, or would even benefit any of those things. I am, frankly, bewildered as to the reason for our sentience. Our brains could be wired the exact same way and perform the exact same actions without us having to be aware of it.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Soze

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #603 on: August 25, 2009, 02:37:23 PM »
However, I think sentience can be evidenced by behavior, ability to learn, and ability to apply past experiences to new and different situations 'correctly'.

I don't. In fact, I don't see that sentience is required for, or would even benefit any of those things. I am, frankly, bewildered as to the reason for our sentience. Our brains could be wired the exact same way and perform the exact same actions without us having to be aware of it.
Our sentience is the ability to feel or perceive is it not? I can't imagine any being would be able to survive very long on its own if it was not conscious or perceptive.

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Parsifal

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #604 on: August 25, 2009, 02:49:38 PM »
Our sentience is the ability to feel or perceive is it not? I can't imagine any being would be able to survive very long on its own if it was not conscious or perceptive.

One doesn't need to be conscious of a stimulus for it to trigger a response.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Soze

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #605 on: August 25, 2009, 03:08:40 PM »
Our sentience is the ability to feel or perceive is it not? I can't imagine any being would be able to survive very long on its own if it was not conscious or perceptive.

One doesn't need to be conscious of a stimulus for it to trigger a response.
So you're wondering how we can know that everyone else isn't a biological/organic robot that only appears to have freewill?

Well, I have trouble answering that since I think that everyone is a robot. Receiving signals of pain (perception) would be the stimulus. I'd say consciousness is the awareness of sensory input.

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #606 on: August 25, 2009, 03:21:43 PM »
I believe in the golden rule, and do not want anyone to kill me. I cannot value my own life more than others' so if I should be allowed to live so should everyone else.
Mutually respecting others' lives because they likely have the same wish to live as you only applies to those who can wish to live or can feel pain, no? If something isn't sentient it doesn't have a will, goals, fears, or personal justice.

I disagree with your assumption that babies are not sentient in the womb, as I have said before. Also, we know that humans are sentient, and we know that babies in the womb are human, as demonstrated by the law of biogenesis. If humans are sentient, and babies in the womb are human, then babies in the womb are sentient. This view is further justified by technology which has shown babies sucking their thumbs in the womb, as well as an increased heart rate (fear) and desperate attempts to avert the device during an abortion.
If you say that the earth is flat, you are destroying centuries of evolution.

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Soze

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #607 on: August 25, 2009, 03:30:06 PM »
I disagree with your assumption that babies are not sentient in the womb, as I have said before.
I never said that babies are not sentient before birth. I just said that there is a period of time after conception that they are not. I believe there may be a period of time before birth in which they could potentially be sentient.

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If humans are sentient, and babies in the womb are human, then babies in the womb are sentient.
Humans in general are sentient because of their developed functioning brains. Embryos do not have brains so the extension fails.

That is like saying "humans are sentient, and dead people are human, so dead people are sentient."

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This view is further justified by technology which has shown babies sucking their thumbs in the womb, as well as an increased heart rate (fear) and desperate attempts to avert the device during an abortion.
Preprogrammed motor functions do not equate with sentience. A Venus flytrap will 'nom' on a fly even though it doesn't have a brain to be conscious of the action or decide the action. Also, these observations do not apply to all stages of development.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 03:33:36 PM by Soze »

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #608 on: August 25, 2009, 03:35:45 PM »
I disagree with your assumption that babies are not sentient in the womb, as I have said before.
I never said that babies are not sentient before birth. I just said that there is a period of time after conception that they are not.

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If humans are sentient, and babies in the womb are human, then babies in the womb are sentient.
Humans in general are sentient because of their developed brains. Embryos do not have brains so the extension fails.

That is like saying "humans are sentient, and dead people are human, so dead people are sentient."

Dead people are not humans anymore. Babies in the womb are.

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This view is further justified by technology which has shown babies sucking their thumbs in the womb, as well as an increased heart rate (fear) and desperate attempts to avert the device during an abortion.
Preprogrammed motor functions do not equate with sentience. A Venus flytrap will 'nom' on a fly even though it doesn't have a brain to be conscious of the action or decide the action. Also, these observations do not apply to all stages of development.

These are not "preprogrammed motor functions." These are demonstrations of fear, curiosity, comfort, and a strong desire to live, all of which require consciousness.

From the moment a baby is conceived, he is human; his eye color, his hair color, the shape of his lips, the side of his nose, all of his genetic information is already determined as soon as the sperm combines with the egg.
If you say that the earth is flat, you are destroying centuries of evolution.

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Soze

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #609 on: August 25, 2009, 03:42:49 PM »
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If humans are sentient, and babies in the womb are human, then babies in the womb are sentient.
Humans in general are sentient because of their developed brains. Embryos do not have brains so the extension fails.

That is like saying "humans are sentient, and dead people are human, so dead people are sentient."

Dead people are not humans anymore.
Why not?

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This view is further justified by technology which has shown babies sucking their thumbs in the womb, as well as an increased heart rate (fear) and desperate attempts to avert the device during an abortion.
Preprogrammed motor functions do not equate with sentience. A Venus flytrap will 'nom' on a fly even though it doesn't have a brain to be conscious of the action or decide the action. Also, these observations do not apply to all stages of development.

These are not "preprogrammed motor functions." These are demonstrations of fear, curiosity, comfort, and a strong desire to live, all of which require consciousness.
Evidence?

From the moment a baby is conceived, he is human; his eye color, his hair color, the shape of his lips, the side of his nose, all of his genetic information is already determined as soon as the sperm combines with the egg.
That genetic information means what? A dead guy has genetic information.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 03:44:33 PM by Soze »

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #610 on: August 25, 2009, 03:45:37 PM »
I disagree with your assumption that babies are not sentient in the womb, as I have said before.
I never said that babies are not sentient before birth. I just said that there is a period of time after conception that they are not.

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If humans are sentient, and babies in the womb are human, then babies in the womb are sentient.
Humans in general are sentient because of their developed brains. Embryos do not have brains so the extension fails.

That is like saying "humans are sentient, and dead people are human, so dead people are sentient."

Dead people are not humans anymore.
Why not?

Why would they be?

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Quote
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This view is further justified by technology which has shown babies sucking their thumbs in the womb, as well as an increased heart rate (fear) and desperate attempts to avert the device during an abortion.
Preprogrammed motor functions do not equate with sentience. A Venus flytrap will 'nom' on a fly even though it doesn't have a brain to be conscious of the action or decide the action. Also, these observations do not apply to all stages of development.

These are not "preprogrammed motor functions." These are demonstrations of fear, curiosity, comfort, and a strong desire to live, all of which require consciousness.
Evidence?

Evidence that these are "preprogrammed motor functions?"

Quote
From the moment a baby is conceived, he is human; his eye color, his hair color, the shape of his lips, the side of his nose, all of his genetic information is already determined as soon as the sperm combines with the egg.
That genetic information means what? A dead guy has genetic information.

A dead guy was also previously living.
If you say that the earth is flat, you are destroying centuries of evolution.

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Soze

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #611 on: August 25, 2009, 03:54:34 PM »
I disagree with your assumption that babies are not sentient in the womb, as I have said before.
I never said that babies are not sentient before birth. I just said that there is a period of time after conception that they are not.

Quote
If humans are sentient, and babies in the womb are human, then babies in the womb are sentient.
Humans in general are sentient because of their developed brains. Embryos do not have brains so the extension fails.

That is like saying "humans are sentient, and dead people are human, so dead people are sentient."

Dead people are not humans anymore.
Why not?

Why would they be?
They were human, and I didn't see you tell me why the death would change anything.

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Quote
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This view is further justified by technology which has shown babies sucking their thumbs in the womb, as well as an increased heart rate (fear) and desperate attempts to avert the device during an abortion.
Preprogrammed motor functions do not equate with sentience. A Venus flytrap will 'nom' on a fly even though it doesn't have a brain to be conscious of the action or decide the action. Also, these observations do not apply to all stages of development.

These are not "preprogrammed motor functions." These are demonstrations of fear, curiosity, comfort, and a strong desire to live, all of which require consciousness.
Evidence?

Evidence that these are "preprogrammed motor functions?"
We all have preprogrammed motor functions, and these can either be motor functions or willful motor functions. It is scientific to be skeptical that a will is driving them, while it is just an assumption to connect consciousness to them.

Quote
From the moment a baby is conceived, he is human; his eye color, his hair color, the shape of his lips, the side of his nose, all of his genetic information is already determined as soon as the sperm combines with the egg.
That genetic information means what? A dead guy has genetic information.

A dead guy was also previously living.
So?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 03:59:33 PM by Soze »

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #612 on: August 25, 2009, 04:07:16 PM »
I disagree with your assumption that babies are not sentient in the womb, as I have said before.
I never said that babies are not sentient before birth. I just said that there is a period of time after conception that they are not.

Quote
If humans are sentient, and babies in the womb are human, then babies in the womb are sentient.
Humans in general are sentient because of their developed brains. Embryos do not have brains so the extension fails.

That is like saying "humans are sentient, and dead people are human, so dead people are sentient."

Dead people are not humans anymore.
Why not?

Why would they be?
They were human, and I didn't see you tell me why the death would change anything.

Dead people do not have heart beats, do not suck their thumbs, and are not capable of moving away from something that is trying to hurt them, all of which people do in the womb.

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Quote
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This view is further justified by technology which has shown babies sucking their thumbs in the womb, as well as an increased heart rate (fear) and desperate attempts to avert the device during an abortion.
Preprogrammed motor functions do not equate with sentience. A Venus flytrap will 'nom' on a fly even though it doesn't have a brain to be conscious of the action or decide the action. Also, these observations do not apply to all stages of development.

These are not "preprogrammed motor functions." These are demonstrations of fear, curiosity, comfort, and a strong desire to live, all of which require consciousness.
Evidence?

Evidence that these are "preprogrammed motor functions?"
We all have preprogrammed motor functions, and these can either be motor functions or willful motor functions. It is scientific to be skeptical that a will is driving them, while it is just an assumption to connect consciousness to them.

It's not assumption. My hand doesn't go up to my mouth at random times and put my thumb inside of it.

Quote
Quote
From the moment a baby is conceived, he is human; his eye color, his hair color, the shape of his lips, the side of his nose, all of his genetic information is already determined as soon as the sperm combines with the egg.
That genetic information means what? A dead guy has genetic information.

A dead guy was also previously living.
So?

So you can't die before you've ever lived.
If you say that the earth is flat, you are destroying centuries of evolution.

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Soze

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #613 on: August 25, 2009, 04:10:43 PM »
Dead people are not humans anymore.
Why not?

Why would they be?
They were human, and I didn't see you tell me why the death would change anything.

Dead people do not have heart beats, do not suck their thumbs, and are not capable of moving away from something that is trying to hurt them, all of which people do in the womb.
Aside from the heartbeats, neither are coma patients; are they human? If the heartbeat is what makes the difference, why?


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Quote
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Preprogrammed motor functions do not equate with sentience. A Venus flytrap will 'nom' on a fly even though it doesn't have a brain to be conscious of the action or decide the action. Also, these observations do not apply to all stages of development.

These are not "preprogrammed motor functions." These are demonstrations of fear, curiosity, comfort, and a strong desire to live, all of which require consciousness.
Evidence?

Evidence that these are "preprogrammed motor functions?"
We all have preprogrammed motor functions, and these can either be motor functions or willful motor functions. It is scientific to be skeptical that a will is driving them, while it is just an assumption to connect consciousness to them.

It's not assumption. My hand doesn't go up to my mouth at random times and put my thumb inside of it.
Your brain is different than that of a fetus. Some motor functions reduce to instincts as the brain grows and can gain control over its actions. Every baby in the world sucks on stuff because the brain is developed around that behavior. It's not a coincidence that everyone of them all decided to do the same thing independently of each other.

Quote
Quote
From the moment a baby is conceived, he is human; his eye color, his hair color, the shape of his lips, the side of his nose, all of his genetic information is already determined as soon as the sperm combines with the egg.
That genetic information means what? A dead guy has genetic information.
A dead guy was also previously living.
So?
So you can't die before you've ever lived.
What? You made a point that the embryo contains genetic information. Does that set it apart from the dead guy or not?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 04:20:14 PM by Soze »

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #614 on: August 25, 2009, 04:25:54 PM »
Dead people are not humans anymore.
Why not?

Why would they be?
They were human, and I didn't see you tell me why the death would change anything.

Dead people do not have heart beats, do not suck their thumbs, and are not capable of moving away from something that is trying to hurt them, all of which people do in the womb.
Aside from the heartbeats, neither are coma patients; are they human? If the heartbeat is what makes the difference, why?

The heartbeat doesn't make the difference, but it is one difference between living and dead.

Quote
Quote
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Preprogrammed motor functions do not equate with sentience. A Venus flytrap will 'nom' on a fly even though it doesn't have a brain to be conscious of the action or decide the action. Also, these observations do not apply to all stages of development.

These are not "preprogrammed motor functions." These are demonstrations of fear, curiosity, comfort, and a strong desire to live, all of which require consciousness.
Evidence?

Evidence that these are "preprogrammed motor functions?"
We all have preprogrammed motor functions, and these can either be motor functions or willful motor functions. It is scientific to be skeptical that a will is driving them, while it is just an assumption to connect consciousness to them.

It's not assumption. My hand doesn't go up to my mouth at random times and put my thumb inside of it.
Your brain is different than that of a fetus. Some motor functions reduce to instincts as the brain grows and can gain control over its actions. Every baby in the world sucks on stuff because the brain is developed around that behavior. It's not a coincidence that everyone of them all decided to do the same thing independently of each other.

It is believed by some that they are practicing for nursing.

Quote
Quote
Quote
From the moment a baby is conceived, he is human; his eye color, his hair color, the shape of his lips, the side of his nose, all of his genetic information is already determined as soon as the sperm combines with the egg.
That genetic information means what? A dead guy has genetic information.
A dead guy was also previously living.
So?
So you can't die before you've ever lived.
What? You made a point that the embryo contains genetic information. Does that set it apart from the dead guy or not?

Yes, they are separate from dead people.
If you say that the earth is flat, you are destroying centuries of evolution.

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Soze

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #615 on: August 25, 2009, 04:32:52 PM »
Dead people are not humans anymore.
Why not?

Why would they be?
They were human, and I didn't see you tell me why the death would change anything.

Dead people do not have heart beats, do not suck their thumbs, and are not capable of moving away from something that is trying to hurt them, all of which people do in the womb.
Aside from the heartbeats, neither are coma patients; are they human? If the heartbeat is what makes the difference, why?

The heartbeat doesn't make the difference, but it is one difference between living and dead.
I wanted why dead people aren't human. You said they didn't have heartbeats. Now you say that's not what makes the difference?

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Quote
Quote
Quote
Preprogrammed motor functions do not equate with sentience. A Venus flytrap will 'nom' on a fly even though it doesn't have a brain to be conscious of the action or decide the action. Also, these observations do not apply to all stages of development.

These are not "preprogrammed motor functions." These are demonstrations of fear, curiosity, comfort, and a strong desire to live, all of which require consciousness.
Evidence?

Evidence that these are "preprogrammed motor functions?"
We all have preprogrammed motor functions, and these can either be motor functions or willful motor functions. It is scientific to be skeptical that a will is driving them, while it is just an assumption to connect consciousness to them.

It's not assumption. My hand doesn't go up to my mouth at random times and put my thumb inside of it.
Your brain is different than that of a fetus. Some motor functions reduce to instincts as the brain grows and can gain control over its actions. Every baby in the world sucks on stuff because the brain is developed around that behavior. It's not a coincidence that everyone of them all decided to do the same thing independently of each other.

It is believed by some that they are practicing for nursing.
Yes, instincts for nursing carry over to other things. Nursing is instinctual.

Quote
Quote
Quote
From the moment a baby is conceived, he is human; his eye color, his hair color, the shape of his lips, the side of his nose, all of his genetic information is already determined as soon as the sperm combines with the egg.
That genetic information means what? A dead guy has genetic information.
A dead guy was also previously living.
So?
So you can't die before you've ever lived.
What? You made a point that the embryo contains genetic information. Does that set it apart from the dead guy or not?
Yes, they are separate from dead people.
But if not because of genetics, why bring it up? And how are they different then?

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #616 on: August 25, 2009, 04:36:54 PM »
Dead people are not humans anymore.
Why not?

Why would they be?
They were human, and I didn't see you tell me why the death would change anything.

Dead people do not have heart beats, do not suck their thumbs, and are not capable of moving away from something that is trying to hurt them, all of which people do in the womb.
Aside from the heartbeats, neither are coma patients; are they human? If the heartbeat is what makes the difference, why?

The heartbeat doesn't make the difference, but it is one difference between living and dead.
I wanted why dead people aren't human. You said they didn't have heartbeats. Now you say that's not what makes the difference?

Their being alive is what makes the difference; heartbeats are just one example of something demonstrative of this.

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Preprogrammed motor functions do not equate with sentience. A Venus flytrap will 'nom' on a fly even though it doesn't have a brain to be conscious of the action or decide the action. Also, these observations do not apply to all stages of development.

These are not "preprogrammed motor functions." These are demonstrations of fear, curiosity, comfort, and a strong desire to live, all of which require consciousness.
Evidence?

Evidence that these are "preprogrammed motor functions?"
We all have preprogrammed motor functions, and these can either be motor functions or willful motor functions. It is scientific to be skeptical that a will is driving them, while it is just an assumption to connect consciousness to them.

It's not assumption. My hand doesn't go up to my mouth at random times and put my thumb inside of it.
Your brain is different than that of a fetus. Some motor functions reduce to instincts as the brain grows and can gain control over its actions. Every baby in the world sucks on stuff because the brain is developed around that behavior. It's not a coincidence that everyone of them all decided to do the same thing independently of each other.

It is believed by some that they are practicing for nursing.
Yes, instincts for nursing carry over to other things. Nursing is instinctual.

That doesn't make them any less conscious.

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Quote
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From the moment a baby is conceived, he is human; his eye color, his hair color, the shape of his lips, the side of his nose, all of his genetic information is already determined as soon as the sperm combines with the egg.
That genetic information means what? A dead guy has genetic information.
A dead guy was also previously living.
So?
So you can't die before you've ever lived.
What? You made a point that the embryo contains genetic information. Does that set it apart from the dead guy or not?
Yes, they are separate from dead people.
But if not because of genetics, why bring it up? And how are they different then?

A dead guy was also previously living.
If you say that the earth is flat, you are destroying centuries of evolution.

*

Soze

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #617 on: August 25, 2009, 05:11:17 PM »
Dead people are not humans anymore.
Why not?

Why would they be?
They were human, and I didn't see you tell me why the death would change anything.

Dead people do not have heart beats, do not suck their thumbs, and are not capable of moving away from something that is trying to hurt them, all of which people do in the womb.
Aside from the heartbeats, neither are coma patients; are they human? If the heartbeat is what makes the difference, why?

The heartbeat doesn't make the difference, but it is one difference between living and dead.
I wanted why dead people aren't human. You said they didn't have heartbeats. Now you say that's not what makes the difference?

Their being alive is what makes the difference; heartbeats are just one example of something demonstrative of this.
So your argument is this:
Dead people aren't humans.
They are not humans because they don't have heartbeats.
Heartbeats make them unhuman because it shows they are dead.

Ever hear of circular logic?

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Preprogrammed motor functions do not equate with sentience. A Venus flytrap will 'nom' on a fly even though it doesn't have a brain to be conscious of the action or decide the action. Also, these observations do not apply to all stages of development.

These are not "preprogrammed motor functions." These are demonstrations of fear, curiosity, comfort, and a strong desire to live, all of which require consciousness.
Evidence?

Evidence that these are "preprogrammed motor functions?"
We all have preprogrammed motor functions, and these can either be motor functions or willful motor functions. It is scientific to be skeptical that a will is driving them, while it is just an assumption to connect consciousness to them.

It's not assumption. My hand doesn't go up to my mouth at random times and put my thumb inside of it.
Your brain is different than that of a fetus. Some motor functions reduce to instincts as the brain grows and can gain control over its actions. Every baby in the world sucks on stuff because the brain is developed around that behavior. It's not a coincidence that everyone of them all decided to do the same thing independently of each other.

It is believed by some that they are practicing for nursing.
Yes, instincts for nursing carry over to other things. Nursing is instinctual.

That doesn't make them any less conscious.
The more developed one is to control predispositions to muscle actions and motor functions with conscious will, the less of a role it plays and it becomes more instinct and less reflexive. Sticking things in their mouths is not entirely a decision, and as their minds develop even further, there decisions actually overrule their instincts.

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From the moment a baby is conceived, he is human; his eye color, his hair color, the shape of his lips, the side of his nose, all of his genetic information is already determined as soon as the sperm combines with the egg.
That genetic information means what? A dead guy has genetic information.
A dead guy was also previously living.
So?
So you can't die before you've ever lived.
What? You made a point that the embryo contains genetic information. Does that set it apart from the dead guy or not?
Yes, they are separate from dead people.
But if not because of genetics, why bring it up? And how are they different then?

A dead guy was also previously living.
That is just another way of saying dead. Why does having lived previously matter? It's really just the same question as above so you can pick which one to reply to.

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #618 on: August 25, 2009, 05:15:12 PM »
Dead people are not humans anymore.
Why not?

Why would they be?
They were human, and I didn't see you tell me why the death would change anything.

Dead people do not have heart beats, do not suck their thumbs, and are not capable of moving away from something that is trying to hurt them, all of which people do in the womb.
Aside from the heartbeats, neither are coma patients; are they human? If the heartbeat is what makes the difference, why?

The heartbeat doesn't make the difference, but it is one difference between living and dead.
I wanted why dead people aren't human. You said they didn't have heartbeats. Now you say that's not what makes the difference?

Their being alive is what makes the difference; heartbeats are just one example of something demonstrative of this.
So your argument is this:
Dead people aren't humans.
They are not humans because they don't have heartbeats.
Heartbeats make them unhuman because it shows they are dead.

Ever hear of circular logic?

Uh, you're the one who brought up dead people. Dead people are not alive, and the fact that their hearts do not beat is simply demonstrative of this.

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Preprogrammed motor functions do not equate with sentience. A Venus flytrap will 'nom' on a fly even though it doesn't have a brain to be conscious of the action or decide the action. Also, these observations do not apply to all stages of development.

These are not "preprogrammed motor functions." These are demonstrations of fear, curiosity, comfort, and a strong desire to live, all of which require consciousness.
Evidence?

Evidence that these are "preprogrammed motor functions?"
We all have preprogrammed motor functions, and these can either be motor functions or willful motor functions. It is scientific to be skeptical that a will is driving them, while it is just an assumption to connect consciousness to them.

It's not assumption. My hand doesn't go up to my mouth at random times and put my thumb inside of it.
Your brain is different than that of a fetus. Some motor functions reduce to instincts as the brain grows and can gain control over its actions. Every baby in the world sucks on stuff because the brain is developed around that behavior. It's not a coincidence that everyone of them all decided to do the same thing independently of each other.

It is believed by some that they are practicing for nursing.
Yes, instincts for nursing carry over to other things. Nursing is instinctual.

That doesn't make them any less conscious.
The more developed one is to control predispositions to muscle actions and motor functions with conscious will, the less of a role it plays and it becomes more instinct and less reflexive. Sticking things in their mouths is not entirely a decision, and as their minds develop even further, there decisions actually overrule their instincts.

So are you saying that newly-born babies are not conscious?

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From the moment a baby is conceived, he is human; his eye color, his hair color, the shape of his lips, the side of his nose, all of his genetic information is already determined as soon as the sperm combines with the egg.
That genetic information means what? A dead guy has genetic information.
A dead guy was also previously living.
So?
So you can't die before you've ever lived.
What? You made a point that the embryo contains genetic information. Does that set it apart from the dead guy or not?
Yes, they are separate from dead people.
But if not because of genetics, why bring it up? And how are they different then?

A dead guy was also previously living.
That is just another way of saying dead. Why does having lived previously matter? It's really just the same question as above so you can pick which one to reply to.

So you can't die before you've ever lived.
If you say that the earth is flat, you are destroying centuries of evolution.

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Soze

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #619 on: August 25, 2009, 05:32:08 PM »
So your argument is this:
Dead people aren't humans.
They are not humans because they don't have heartbeats.
Heartbeats make them unhuman because it shows they are dead.

Ever hear of circular logic?

Uh, you're the one who brought up dead people. Dead people are not alive, and the fact that their hearts do not beat is simply demonstrative of this.
I still want to know why specifically does being dead means not having rights. I brought up dead people to clarify why they aren't human enough to get rights too. What makes them less deserving than an embryo? Come to think of it, a cell doesn't have a heartbeat.

So are you saying that newly-born babies are not conscious?
I am saying that there are degrees of consciousness and newborn babies are not as conscious as adults.

So you can't die before you've ever lived.
What significance does death have though?

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #620 on: August 25, 2009, 05:39:52 PM »
So your argument is this:
Dead people aren't humans.
They are not humans because they don't have heartbeats.
Heartbeats make them unhuman because it shows they are dead.

Ever hear of circular logic?

Uh, you're the one who brought up dead people. Dead people are not alive, and the fact that their hearts do not beat is simply demonstrative of this.
I still want to know why specifically does being dead means not having rights. I brought up dead people to clarify why they aren't human enough to get rights too. What makes them less deserving than an embryo? Come to think of it, a cell doesn't have a heartbeat.

Sure, give dead people rights. I would not be against it.

Unborn babies have heart beats.

So are you saying that newly-born babies are not conscious?
I am saying that there are degrees of consciousness and newborn babies are not as conscious as adults.[/quote]

Okay, so why should born babies have the right to live but unborn not when they have the same degree of consciousness?

So you can't die before you've ever lived.
What significance does death have though?
[/quote]

Well, for one, it causes one to no longer be living.
If you say that the earth is flat, you are destroying centuries of evolution.

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Soze

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #621 on: August 25, 2009, 05:50:55 PM »
Sure, give dead people rights. I would not be against it.

Unborn babies have heart beats.
Would you really not be against it or are you coming up empty handed on reasons?
And yes, eventually they do develop heartbeats, but not at conception or for a period following.

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So are you saying that newly-born babies are not conscious?
I am saying that there are degrees of consciousness and newborn babies are not as conscious as adults.

Okay, so why should born babies have the right to live but unborn not when they have the same degree of consciousness?
Do they? What stage of developing fetuses are we talking about?

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So you can't die before you've ever lived.
What significance does death have though?

Well, for one, it causes one to no longer be living.
That is just rephrasing death.

I'll give you an example:
I believe death significant as a cut off point because someone no longer has sentience. I believe sentient beings are what we should respect the lives of, so something lacking that sentience is like grass, doesn't need rights to live.

You say the beginning of rights starts at conception yet ends at death. The reasons for calling the period in between human are thrown off by these end points. Conception means rights to you because of genetics. Genetics are still present after death, so this seems self contradictory. Perhaps you would want to use genetics as a start and lack of sentience as an end, but that isn't a uniform answer for what deserves rights.

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #622 on: August 25, 2009, 05:56:38 PM »
Sure, give dead people rights. I would not be against it.

Unborn babies have heart beats.
Would you really not be against it or are you coming up empty handed on reasons?
And yes, eventually they do develop heartbeats, but not at conception or for a period following.

I really wouldn't. What should I care? Any reason you've given does not apply to unborn babies.

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So are you saying that newly-born babies are not conscious?
I am saying that there are degrees of consciousness and newborn babies are not as conscious as adults.

Okay, so why should born babies have the right to live but unborn not when they have the same degree of consciousness?
Do they? What stage of developing fetuses are we talking about?[/quote]

I thought you believed they do.

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So you can't die before you've ever lived.
What significance does death have though?

Well, for one, it causes one to no longer be living.
That is just rephrasing death.

I'll give you an example:
I believe death significant as a cut off point because someone no longer has sentience. I believe sentient beings are what we should respect the lives of, so something lacking that sentience is like grass, doesn't need rights to live.

You say the beginning of rights starts at conception yet ends at death. The reasons for calling the period in between human are thrown off by these end points. Conception means rights to you because of genetics. Genetics are still present after death, so this seems self contradictory. Perhaps you would want to use genetics as a start and lack of sentience as an end, but that isn't a uniform answer for what deserves rights.
[/quote]

I don't believe rights end at death at all.

Genetics was one example of something that shows that a human is already fully alive after conception. A developing human is still a human, is it not?
If you say that the earth is flat, you are destroying centuries of evolution.

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Soze

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #623 on: August 25, 2009, 06:07:34 PM »
I really wouldn't. What should I care? Any reason you've given does not apply to unborn babies.
The reason I gave was that a single cell cannot be sentient. It merely has the potential to grow into something sentient.

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So are you saying that newly-born babies are not conscious?
I am saying that there are degrees of consciousness and newborn babies are not as conscious as adults.

Okay, so why should born babies have the right to live but unborn not when they have the same degree of consciousness?
Do they? What stage of developing fetuses are we talking about?[/quote]

I thought you believed they do.[/quote]
I believe that consciousness is a continuum. It develops after conception and levels off more and more the closer you are to adulthood and stops relatively suddenly at death.

I don't believe rights end at death at all.
Even the right to live? The right to have a will, or to not have your body acted upon without permission? Death makes a person relinquish control and thought and even cares about the world or themselves, and legal rights generally reflect that.

Genetics was one example of something that shows that a human is already fully alive after conception. A developing human is still a human, is it not?
If being alive is enough to grant rights to life, then you would either be a hypocrite or dead. Everything you eat was alive before it was deemed more important to keep you alive. Whether it be lettuce or cows, it was farmed and killed to feed you.

A developing human is just that, a human. Saying otherwise is just oversimplifying it into larger categories to grant it the same rights as things that are very dissimilar. An intelligent monkey is more similar to a human (than a developing human) in almost every way except genetics.

And if it is genetics, what would make the A's,T's,C's, and G's any in humans more deserving of rights?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 06:09:33 PM by Soze »

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #624 on: August 25, 2009, 09:04:06 PM »
I really wouldn't. What should I care? Any reason you've given does not apply to unborn babies.
The reason I gave was that a single cell cannot be sentient. It merely has the potential to grow into something sentient.

It's not a single cell, it's always multiple cells when the abortion occurs; a single cell would not be detectable, and the woman would not even know she were pregnant, so it's not really applicable, but in any case, it's still human.

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So are you saying that newly-born babies are not conscious?
I am saying that there are degrees of consciousness and newborn babies are not as conscious as adults.

Okay, so why should born babies have the right to live but unborn not when they have the same degree of consciousness?
Do they? What stage of developing fetuses are we talking about?

I thought you believed they do.
I believe that consciousness is a continuum. It develops after conception and levels off more and more the closer you are to adulthood and stops relatively suddenly at death.

I don't believe rights end at death at all.
Even the right to live? The right to have a will, or to not have your body acted upon without permission? Death makes a person relinquish control and thought and even cares about the world or themselves, and legal rights generally reflect that.

People do have the right to live. If someone kills that person, he violated that right. Now that the person is dead, sadly, that right can no longer be enforced, but that person still has the right to, like you pointed out, have his will followed and have done with his body what he wanted done with it.

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Genetics was one example of something that shows that a human is already fully alive after conception. A developing human is still a human, is it not?
If being alive is enough to grant rights to life, then you would either be a hypocrite or dead. Everything you eat was alive before it was deemed more important to keep you alive. Whether it be lettuce or cows, it was farmed and killed to feed you.

A developing human is just that, a human. Saying otherwise is just oversimplifying it into larger categories to grant it the same rights as things that are very dissimilar. An intelligent monkey is more similar to a human (than a developing human) in almost every way except genetics.

And if it is genetics, what would make the A's,T's,C's, and G's any in humans more deserving of rights?

Lettuce is not a human or animal. It does not possess and will never possess a central nervous system, consciousness. It will can never feel pain, it can never feel emotion.

I disagree that an intelligent monkey is more similar to a human than a human, whether developing or not. Humans are always developing and continue to develop until they die. It's not just genetics.
If you say that the earth is flat, you are destroying centuries of evolution.

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Parsifal

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #625 on: August 25, 2009, 10:05:48 PM »
So you're wondering how we can know that everyone else isn't a biological/organic robot that only appears to have freewill?

Well, I have trouble answering that since I think that everyone is a robot. Receiving signals of pain (perception) would be the stimulus. I'd say consciousness is the awareness of sensory input.

I agree that everyone is a robot, at least in the sense that our actions are deterministic. What I don't understand is why we should be aware of what's going on around us. I mean, you could have the human brain function as it does without us having to actually be aware of anything. Just because you build a computer with various peripheral inputs that can analyse them to produce an intelligible response doesn't mean that it is conscious of what it is doing. The same should apply to humans and other carbon-based life.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Soze

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #626 on: August 26, 2009, 11:50:32 AM »
It's not a single cell, it's always multiple cells when the abortion occurs; a single cell would not be detectable, and the woman would not even know she were pregnant, so it's not really applicable, but in any case, it's still human.
So the morning after pill is not abortion?

Also, two cells are just as incapable of sentience. Conscious thought requires a neural network. I can't even imagine all the complexities it would require but to start it would have to store information (perception/memory), organize information and put it in context with other information (conceptualize), and manipulate components of information to come up with new information (comprehension). That alone would take a whole lot of brain cells.

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I don't believe rights end at death at all.
Even the right to live? The right to have a will, or to not have your body acted upon without permission? Death makes a person relinquish control and thought and even cares about the world or themselves, and legal rights generally reflect that.

People do have the right to live. If someone kills that person, he violated that right. Now that the person is dead, sadly, that right can no longer be enforced, but that person still has the right to, like you pointed out, have his will followed and have done with his body what he wanted done with it.
My point is that he no longer has a will in the sense of will power. He no longer has the rights the come with the ability to change his mind or anything else that requires sentience.

A legal document of a will is prepared in advanced for when he loses his ability to dictate distribution of property. A king can set up conditions for his 'retirement' from power, but he no longer has the privileges he had when he retires. A dead man cannot vote, he cannot sue, he cannot do anything after death, because he lost his consciousness.

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Genetics was one example of something that shows that a human is already fully alive after conception. A developing human is still a human, is it not?
If being alive is enough to grant rights to life, then you would either be a hypocrite or dead. Everything you eat was alive before it was deemed more important to keep you alive. Whether it be lettuce or cows, it was farmed and killed to feed you.

A developing human is just that, a human. Saying otherwise is just oversimplifying it into larger categories to grant it the same rights as things that are very dissimilar. An intelligent monkey is more similar to a human (than a developing human) in almost every way except genetics.

And if it is genetics, what would make the A's,T's,C's, and G's any in humans more deserving of rights?

Lettuce is not a human or animal. It does not possess and will never possess a central nervous system, consciousness. It will can never feel pain, it can never feel emotion.
Beautiful. You've begun respecting life for its capacity to perceive and feel.

I disagree that an intelligent monkey is more similar to a human than a human, whether developing or not. Humans are always developing and continue to develop until they die. It's not just genetics.
A full grown monkey can run, walk, reason, feel pain, feel happiness, prioritize, observe and comprehend it's surroundings, etc. An embryo cannot. A cluster of cells young enough to be incapable of thought, is nothing but genetically human, and technically alive. Lettuce or fungus is alive, but not respected. You already admitted genetics aren't a deciding factor.

How is another animal capable of perception and action more dissimilar from a human than a cluster of cells incapable of both perception and action?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 12:07:22 PM by Soze »

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Soze

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #627 on: August 26, 2009, 11:57:21 AM »
So you're wondering how we can know that everyone else isn't a biological/organic robot that only appears to have freewill?

Well, I have trouble answering that since I think that everyone is a robot. Receiving signals of pain (perception) would be the stimulus. I'd say consciousness is the awareness of sensory input.

I agree that everyone is a robot, at least in the sense that our actions are deterministic. What I don't understand is why we should be aware of what's going on around us. I mean, you could have the human brain function as it does without us having to actually be aware of anything.
What is "us"? The brain?
The brain has to receive input to respond to stimuli.

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Just because you build a computer with various peripheral inputs that can analyse them to produce an intelligible response doesn't mean that it is conscious of what it is doing. The same should apply to humans and other carbon-based life.
This sounds like a distinction between awareness and self awareness which really just depends on the amount of information and context the computer has. If the computer was built to be aware of its own processes so that it might continually evaluate its own processes and decide which ones were optimal to use or even expand upon, that seems like it would be self awareness to me.

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Parsifal

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #628 on: August 26, 2009, 12:05:14 PM »
What is "us"? The brain?
The brain has to receive input to respond to stimuli.

"Us" is that indefinable thing that makes us conscious of what we are doing. Clearly such a thing exists, for I have an identity in the sense that I am me and nobody else; I experience what I do from my perspective but cannot flit around the Universe outside my body - yet, there is no known physical explanation for what causes the neurons in the brain to create this sensation of being, this feeling of identity. To me, it is life's greatest mystery - and, indeed, the one reason I do not rule out free will entirely, for the explanation for it (if it is ever known) may also allow the possibility of decision on the part of the individual.

When I say we needn't be aware of anything, I don't mean we shouldn't be receiving input, I mean we shouldn't consciously know of it. The data could just be processed as any machine would, and appropriate actions taken. This process does not require a sense of identity, being, consciousness, sentience or awakeness.

This sounds like a distinction between awareness and self awareness which really just depends on the amount of information and context the computer has. If the computer was built to be aware of its own processes so that it might continually evaluate its own processes and decide which ones were optimal to use or even expand upon, that seems like it would be self awareness to me.

Not to me. All that would do is add another few processes on top of the ones already running. At what point does the lump of silicon turn into a sentient being with some sense of identity?
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #629 on: August 26, 2009, 12:20:31 PM »
So the morning after pill is not abortion?

I don't know enough about it or what it does to have an opinion on whether or not it is an abortion.

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Also, two cells are just as incapable of sentience. Conscious thought requires a neural network. I can't even imagine all the complexities it would require but to start it would have to store information (perception/memory), organize information and put it in context with other information (conceptualize), and manipulate components of information to come up with new information (comprehension). That alone would take a whole lot of brain cells.

But it's still a human.

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A legal document of a will is prepared in advanced for when he loses his ability to dictate distribution of property. A king can set up conditions for his 'retirement' from power, but he no longer has the privileges he had when he retires. A dead man cannot vote, he cannot sue, he cannot do anything after death, because he lost his consciousness.

Yes, this is true.

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Beautiful. You've begun respecting life for its capacity to perceive and feel.

Was this sarcastic?

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A full grown monkey can run, walk, reason, feel pain, feel happiness, prioritize, observe and comprehend it's surroundings, etc. An embryo cannot. A cluster of cells young enough to be incapable of thought, is nothing but genetically human, and technically alive. Lettuce or fungus is alive, but not respected. You already admitted genetics aren't a deciding factor.

How is another animal capable of perception and action more dissimilar from a human than a cluster of cells incapable of both perception and action?

By the very fact that he is not a human... he is a monkey. Now, monkeys are very intelligent, and in fact have societies with political structures just like humans do; I recognize that. But by the very fact that they are not human simply by definition, he cannot be more similar to a human than a human.
If you say that the earth is flat, you are destroying centuries of evolution.