Poll

Is gun control an effective means of reducing violent crime

Yes.  People cannot be trusted with guns for any reason.  If the population is not armed, then there are less guns in the hands of criminals.  As a result there will be less violent crime
Yes.  But only for gun crimes, it will have no effect on other types of violent crimes
Yes and no.  It may reduce crimes commited with guns, but criminal will then resort to other weapons such as knives.  Other violent crimes will increase
No.  Criminals will get guns despite the law, it will have no effect on crime
No.  Not only will criminals ignore this law and get guns illegally, but such laws will make for easier victims since they will not be armed.  Crime rates will increase

Gun Control

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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #90 on: December 31, 2008, 05:23:57 PM »
Just because you take the meat off of the animal doesn't mean everybody does, and I never said people just leave it there, I've seen people shoot a pheasant in the leg and send dogs off to fetch it. They'll wring the life out of it.

If your gun defends you by killing people, your very first sentence is a contradiction.
Quote
i've yet to see the gun that was made strictly for murdering people
But then you said:
Quote
i've yet to see the gun that was made strictly for murdering people
Sure, I'm the target. If a well-informed criminal had the choice between shooting at someone with a gun and trying to stab (because only big organised gangs have any proper guns here, and that's gone down the pan a bit now that Tam's dead.) a Glaswegian, they'd go for you.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Bob28

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #91 on: December 31, 2008, 05:33:42 PM »
Just because you take the meat off of the animal doesn't mean everybody does, and I never said people just leave it there, I've seen people shoot a pheasant in the leg and send dogs off to fetch it. They'll wring the life out of it.

If your gun defends you by killing people, your very first sentence is a contradiction.
Quote
i've yet to see the gun that was made strictly for murdering people
But then you said:
Quote
i've yet to see the gun that was made strictly for murdering people
Sure, I'm the target. If a well-informed criminal had the choice between shooting at someone with a gun and trying to stab (because only big organised gangs have any proper guns here, and that's gone down the pan a bit now that Tam's dead.) a Glaswegian, they'd go for you.

murdering someone and killing someone in self-defense are two completely different things.  if you think killing someone in self-defense or the defense of an innocent person is murder then you are insane.  if someone is trying to kill you or rape you or cause you or any other person serious harm and you had a gun you wouldn't shoot them?  if you wouldnt then youre just as bad as the person committing the crime. 

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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #92 on: December 31, 2008, 05:36:17 PM »
I would, but I wouldn't pretend I hadn't killed someone, which is the definition of murder.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Bob28

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #93 on: December 31, 2008, 05:46:13 PM »
I would, but I wouldn't pretend I hadn't killed someone, which is the definition of murder.

well if i killed someone in self-defense i wouldn't say that i didnt kill them, but killing someone is different than murdering someone.  any time you end someone's life you kill them, but its not necessarily murder.  if someone is in a coma and machines are keeping them alive and the family decides to turn off the machine they are killing the person but they aren't murdering the person

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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #94 on: December 31, 2008, 05:49:32 PM »
Yes, they are. Stop attaching emotions and morality to words, it makes you look like Kingman.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Bob28

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #95 on: December 31, 2008, 05:55:32 PM »
Yes, they are. Stop attaching emotions and morality to words, it makes you look like Kingman.

ok so somebody is raping your mother and you shoot him in the head, you should be arrested for murder?

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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #96 on: December 31, 2008, 06:03:22 PM »
No, where did I indicate I should be?
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Bob28

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #97 on: December 31, 2008, 06:06:51 PM »
No, where did I indicate I should be?

when you said killing is murder and not to attach emotion or morality.  murder is a crime, if you commit murder you get arrested.  killing someone is not necessarily a crime.  like i said killing someone and murdering someone are not necessarily the same thing.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #98 on: January 01, 2009, 06:29:29 AM »
Either way it's still homicide, but in the case of self defense it would be justifiable homicide.  Sorry to hear that you changed your mind back GD.  Although Britain may have an entirely different situation than the U.S., I still do not think banning guns has done anything to help the crime there, and in the U.S. it often has a negative impact.

I've noticed how people call for the banning of guns or stricter gun control whenever something terrible happens involving guns.  I know a lot of people that go to Virginia Tech (though I didn't know any who where killed).  Last year the parents of those who were killed went to the Virginia legislature and pleaded with them to ban guns in Virginia.  This is usually the first reaction to such a crime, it's emotional in my opinion.  The facts are we have very little to fear from law abiding citizens carrying firearms, and in the rare cases where you get a psycho like Choi, armed citizens are the first line of defense, and in the past it has saved lives.  At VT you had an entire building that was at the mercy of one man because guns were banned there.  He ignored that ban, like most criminals would.  In addition to this, there were several things that could have been done to warn people of Choi, it may have helped, but a guy like that can only be dealt with one way.

In the U.S. there are currently 1700 people for every 1 police officer on duty, it is impossible for them to protect everybody.  You have to protect yourself.  Where the government needs to do a better job is make sure these criminals, when they are convicted, go to jail for a very long time.  The problem with crime here is not guns, it's the revolving door method of our prison systems.  An average of 5 years for a rapist, 7 for murder.  I say let people carry their guns for lawful purposes, if somebody abuses that right, the citizens have the immediate means to defend themselves, and that criminal (if they are still alive), should go to jail for good.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #99 on: January 01, 2009, 07:57:08 AM »
I've actually changed my mind to a degree. I think that imposing gun controls where there previously were none would be a bad idea (not to mention pointless) but where there is already strict gun control I don't think it should be relaxed for the sake of it.


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Guessed

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #100 on: January 01, 2009, 08:43:21 AM »
Hunting is a pointless and cruel sport, and I will not change my mind on that until I see someone make a clean kill, sport shooting is training for killing and how does a gun defend other than by shooting people? As a matter of fact, killing people from another country or of another religion is still murder. And do you know what, Bush didn't take the guns away, and look what fucking happened there. Ragnarr, cbarnett and JC had almost changed my mind, until you charged in and I realised removing gun control leads to gun-nut redneck animal-mutilators (I'm fine with the killing of animals for food and goods, but just cut the throat, don't shoot it in the leg or wing and make it suffer, especially not for sport) that think that just because criminals have the same sense of self preservation as everybody else it somehow means that guns stop violence. Fuck it, why not just give dirty bombs to everybody if terrorists are just going to get a hold of them anyway, why not just shoot ourselves in the head to save ammo for some other law abiding citizen we happen to startle whilst sitting in our garden at night?

dang you almost had your mind changed, that breaks my heart.  tell you what if you wanna shoot yourself in the head to save ammo be my guest, i'll even let you borrow my gun.  myself and everyone i know that hunt get all the meat off of any animal we kill and eat it or give it away, nobody i know just shoot animals for the fun of it and leave the thing laying there.  you asked how a gun defends other than by shooting someone, well thats exactly how it is supposed to defend.  if someone breaks into my house or tries to rob me on the street and i shoot them then my gun did exactly what i bought it for.  i'm glad there are people like you in this world though because you become the target not me.

How exactly does not arming yourself open you up to being a target again? You cannot spark non-agression through agressive means, and to say otherwise is to lie to yourself. If you have a gun to protect yourself, any criminal who comes against you will arm themselves further, making you arm yourself further, and so on. Also, if you believe that owning a gun will prevent you from being robbed by a criminal with a bigger gun, then I have a rock for you that will keep away tigers. If you buy it, and no tigers come, then it must work as a preventitive measure, right? 
Is Dino open source?

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Bob28

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #101 on: January 01, 2009, 09:00:35 AM »
Hunting is a pointless and cruel sport, and I will not change my mind on that until I see someone make a clean kill, sport shooting is training for killing and how does a gun defend other than by shooting people? As a matter of fact, killing people from another country or of another religion is still murder. And do you know what, Bush didn't take the guns away, and look what fucking happened there. Ragnarr, cbarnett and JC had almost changed my mind, until you charged in and I realised removing gun control leads to gun-nut redneck animal-mutilators (I'm fine with the killing of animals for food and goods, but just cut the throat, don't shoot it in the leg or wing and make it suffer, especially not for sport) that think that just because criminals have the same sense of self preservation as everybody else it somehow means that guns stop violence. Fuck it, why not just give dirty bombs to everybody if terrorists are just going to get a hold of them anyway, why not just shoot ourselves in the head to save ammo for some other law abiding citizen we happen to startle whilst sitting in our garden at night?

dang you almost had your mind changed, that breaks my heart.  tell you what if you wanna shoot yourself in the head to save ammo be my guest, i'll even let you borrow my gun.  myself and everyone i know that hunt get all the meat off of any animal we kill and eat it or give it away, nobody i know just shoot animals for the fun of it and leave the thing laying there.  you asked how a gun defends other than by shooting someone, well thats exactly how it is supposed to defend.  if someone breaks into my house or tries to rob me on the street and i shoot them then my gun did exactly what i bought it for.  i'm glad there are people like you in this world though because you become the target not me.

How exactly does not arming yourself open you up to being a target again? You cannot spark non-agression through agressive means, and to say otherwise is to lie to yourself. If you have a gun to protect yourself, any criminal who comes against you will arm themselves further, making you arm yourself further, and so on. Also, if you believe that owning a gun will prevent you from being robbed by a criminal with a bigger gun, then I have a rock for you that will keep away tigers. If you buy it, and no tigers come, then it must work as a preventitive measure, right? 

ok i want you to try and use some logical thinking here, could be tough but try.  if a criminal sees 2 people walking down the street, one has a gun and one has nothing, who do you think he would prey on?  gun control just ensures that both of those people are unarmed making them both easy targets.  now i know there is no way for a criminal to tell for sure if someone has a gun or not but as long as there is always a chance that someone is armed it is at least some way to deter a criminal.  look at stats of gun crime in large populated cities compared to smaller rural towns.  people are more likely to have a gun in a rural town and that deters crime.  by the way we have no tigers where i'm from so i'll pass on the rock, thanks though.

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The Terror

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #102 on: January 01, 2009, 09:03:05 AM »
Rural towns have less crime overall though. It's nothing to do with gun ownership.

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Bob28

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #103 on: January 01, 2009, 09:08:33 AM »
Rural towns have less crime overall though. It's nothing to do with gun ownership.

i dont mean the amount of murders or robberies, of course a big city will have more.  i'm talking per capita, and it has a lot to do with criminals knowing their chance of getting shot are higher in a rural area.

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Guessed

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #104 on: January 01, 2009, 09:48:18 AM »
I live in a rural area, we have the highest percentage crime in our region (which consists of rural and urban settings, before you jump down my throat about that). It has more to do with social factors than being armed. Our town's main industry has shut down, causing poverty, leading to crime, etc. Guns do not decrease the crime where I am from, in fact all that I have seen them do is heighten the end result of crimes ( I have seen this firsthand as well as read about and seen it on t.v). That is not to say that guns have no purpose in society, I just do not feel that every citizen needs to be armed. Certainly we can agree on that much?

Fear is the number one killer in my town, and I don't think I'm alone in that thinking.   Also, just because I disagree with you does not make me illogical, so I'll thank you to stop with the ad-hominems and at least attempt some civility.
Is Dino open source?

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Bob28

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #105 on: January 01, 2009, 10:10:43 AM »
I live in a rural area, we have the highest percentage crime in our region (which consists of rural and urban settings, before you jump down my throat about that). It has more to do with social factors than being armed. Our town's main industry has shut down, causing poverty, leading to crime, etc. Guns do not decrease the crime where I am from, in fact all that I have seen them do is heighten the end result of crimes ( I have seen this firsthand as well as read about and seen it on t.v). That is not to say that guns have no purpose in society, I just do not feel that every citizen needs to be armed. Certainly we can agree on that much?

Fear is the number one killer in my town, and I don't think I'm alone in that thinking.   Also, just because I disagree with you does not make me illogical, so I'll thank you to stop with the ad-hominems and at least attempt some civility.

where do you live so i can look it up?  i'm not calling you a liar but i find it hard to believe that poverty is turning the people in your rural town into killers.  i understand poverty will increase some crime, like shoplifting or breaking & entering but not violent crimes like murder and rape.  i completely agree not everyone needs to be armed, i know several people that have no business whatsoever touching a gun.  but that doesn't mean everyone should lose the right to carry a weapon.  the police are called first responders but they aren't, the person or people there when the crime is being committed are the first responders and if they are armed then they can do much more than the police can. 

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cbarnett97

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #106 on: January 01, 2009, 10:19:42 AM »
Here are some more facts:
In the U.S. a gun is used in self defense around 2.5 million times a year which is about once every 13 seconds and of all thos people 15.6% believe that they "almost certainly" saved their lives doing so.

In 83.5% of gun defenses the attacker either threatened or attacked first.

92% of the people who defended themselves needed only to brandish the weapon or fire a warning shot

The attacker is only wounded 8% of the time  and the chances are less than 1 in a thousand of the attacker being killed.

When a gun is used in self defense: 83% of robbery victims are not injured, 88% of assault victim were unharmed.

When Canada implemented their gun control ban on owning a handgun the "breaking and entering" crime rate rose above 25%

And finally my 2 favorite facts:
74% of all felons agree that "one reason that burglars avoid houses where people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."

57% of all felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about running into an armed victim than they are about running into the police."
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

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Jesus Crotch

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #107 on: January 01, 2009, 10:20:14 AM »
I live in a rural area, we have the highest percentage crime in our region (which consists of rural and urban settings, before you jump down my throat about that). It has more to do with social factors than being armed. Our town's main industry has shut down, causing poverty, leading to crime, etc. Guns do not decrease the crime where I am from, in fact all that I have seen them do is heighten the end result of crimes ( I have seen this firsthand as well as read about and seen it on t.v). That is not to say that guns have no purpose in society, I just do not feel that every citizen needs to be armed. Certainly we can agree on that much?

Fear is the number one killer in my town, and I don't think I'm alone in that thinking.   Also, just because I disagree with you does not make me illogical, so I'll thank you to stop with the ad-hominems and at least attempt some civility.

No, we can not agree on that.  An armed society is a polite society.  I would feel much safer knowing that the non-felons, wife-beaters, and drug-addicts around me were carrying weapons than I would walking down the street knowing it is likely that the only people I see that have guns are the criminals!

Keep in mind, I'm not your typical no-compromise gun fanatic.  I support sensible measures, like NICS (National Instant Check System), which lets a gun store check a person for felony convictions, commitments, restraining orders, and such in about 15 minutes before selling them a gun.  I don't support waiting periods, which, studies show, tend to get stalked women killed.  'Assault weapons' bans are a joke: criminals don't obey them, the guns are no more dangerous than any others, and they are not used in crimes with any regularity (less than half a percent, IIRC).  I have a half-dozen rifles that are nearly identical in every way to weapons on the banned list that are completely legal for me to own and shoot - so why can I have an AR built on a Colt Carbine lower receiver but not one built off a Colt AR-15 lower receiver?  Because gun laws are written predominantly to assuage the fears and shouts of witless constituents - not to reduce crime.

Oh, and for the definitionally impaired:

kill: to deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay.

murder: the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:  words mean things.  That's how language works.  You don't get redefine a word every time your use of it in an argument demonstrates your lack of understanding of what it actually means.  One cannot murder someone one thinks is trying to kill you at the moment.  It's just not possible, and no amount of semantic masturbation will make it possible.
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cbarnett97

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #108 on: January 01, 2009, 10:22:12 AM »
I live in a rural area, we have the highest percentage crime in our region (which consists of rural and urban settings, before you jump down my throat about that). It has more to do with social factors than being armed. Our town's main industry has shut down, causing poverty, leading to crime, etc. Guns do not decrease the crime where I am from, in fact all that I have seen them do is heighten the end result of crimes ( I have seen this firsthand as well as read about and seen it on t.v). That is not to say that guns have no purpose in society, I just do not feel that every citizen needs to be armed. Certainly we can agree on that much?

Fear is the number one killer in my town, and I don't think I'm alone in that thinking.   Also, just because I disagree with you does not make me illogical, so I'll thank you to stop with the ad-hominems and at least attempt some civility.
Yes I do agree that some people should not be armed but if crime goes up there should be more guns in the area it has been shown many times that guns deter crime and at least here in the U.S. the police are under no legal obligation to protect you they are only here to enforce a law after it has been broken.
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

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Bob28

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #109 on: January 01, 2009, 10:42:45 AM »
I live in a rural area, we have the highest percentage crime in our region (which consists of rural and urban settings, before you jump down my throat about that). It has more to do with social factors than being armed. Our town's main industry has shut down, causing poverty, leading to crime, etc. Guns do not decrease the crime where I am from, in fact all that I have seen them do is heighten the end result of crimes ( I have seen this firsthand as well as read about and seen it on t.v). That is not to say that guns have no purpose in society, I just do not feel that every citizen needs to be armed. Certainly we can agree on that much?

Fear is the number one killer in my town, and I don't think I'm alone in that thinking.   Also, just because I disagree with you does not make me illogical, so I'll thank you to stop with the ad-hominems and at least attempt some civility.

No, we can not agree on that.  An armed society is a polite society.  I would feel much safer knowing that the non-felons, wife-beaters, and drug-addicts around me were carrying weapons than I would walking down the street knowing it is likely that the only people I see that have guns are the criminals!

Keep in mind, I'm not your typical no-compromise gun fanatic.  I support sensible measures, like NICS (National Instant Check System), which lets a gun store check a person for felony convictions, commitments, restraining orders, and such in about 15 minutes before selling them a gun.  I don't support waiting periods, which, studies show, tend to get stalked women killed.  'Assault weapons' bans are a joke: criminals don't obey them, the guns are no more dangerous than any others, and they are not used in crimes with any regularity (less than half a percent, IIRC).  I have a half-dozen rifles that are nearly identical in every way to weapons on the banned list that are completely legal for me to own and shoot - so why can I have an AR built on a Colt Carbine lower receiver but not one built off a Colt AR-15 lower receiver?  Because gun laws are written predominantly to assuage the fears and shouts of witless constituents - not to reduce crime.

Oh, and for the definitionally impaired:

kill: to deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay.

murder: the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:  words mean things.  That's how language works.  You don't get redefine a word every time your use of it in an argument demonstrates your lack of understanding of what it actually means.  One cannot murder someone one thinks is trying to kill you at the moment.  It's just not possible, and no amount of semantic masturbation will make it possible.


very well said, i was arguing yesterday with someone and they were saying killing and murdering are the same and i was trying to explain that they aren't always the same, but you put it much better than i did

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Guessed

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #110 on: January 01, 2009, 10:55:49 AM »
I live in a rural area, we have the highest percentage crime in our region (which consists of rural and urban settings, before you jump down my throat about that). It has more to do with social factors than being armed. Our town's main industry has shut down, causing poverty, leading to crime, etc. Guns do not decrease the crime where I am from, in fact all that I have seen them do is heighten the end result of crimes ( I have seen this firsthand as well as read about and seen it on t.v). That is not to say that guns have no purpose in society, I just do not feel that every citizen needs to be armed. Certainly we can agree on that much?

Fear is the number one killer in my town, and I don't think I'm alone in that thinking.   Also, just because I disagree with you does not make me illogical, so I'll thank you to stop with the ad-hominems and at least attempt some civility.

where do you live so i can look it up?  i'm not calling you a liar but i find it hard to believe that poverty is turning the people in your rural town into killers.  i understand poverty will increase some crime, like shoplifting or breaking & entering but not violent crimes like murder and rape.  i completely agree not everyone needs to be armed, i know several people that have no business whatsoever touching a gun.  but that doesn't mean everyone should lose the right to carry a weapon.  the police are called first responders but they aren't, the person or people there when the crime is being committed are the first responders and if they are armed then they can do much more than the police can. 

I live in a town called Caeasarea, or at least I grew up there and come back to visit from time to time.  Because of the rampant poverty in Caesarea, there is an increased use of harder drugs and biker gang related activity. This in turn has lead to more people arming themselves and there has been a steady increase in murders. I do agree that the police are poor responders, and as I said (or attempted to, sorry if I was unclear), I believe that people should be armed if they can do so responsibly, but it must be proven without doubt that they can do it responsibly. I don't believe guns should be outlawed, just controlled.

I live in a rural area, we have the highest percentage crime in our region (which consists of rural and urban settings, before you jump down my throat about that). It has more to do with social factors than being armed. Our town's main industry has shut down, causing poverty, leading to crime, etc. Guns do not decrease the crime where I am from, in fact all that I have seen them do is heighten the end result of crimes ( I have seen this firsthand as well as read about and seen it on t.v). That is not to say that guns have no purpose in society, I just do not feel that every citizen needs to be armed. Certainly we can agree on that much?

Fear is the number one killer in my town, and I don't think I'm alone in that thinking.   Also, just because I disagree with you does not make me illogical, so I'll thank you to stop with the ad-hominems and at least attempt some civility.

No, we can not agree on that.  An armed society is a polite society.  I would feel much safer knowing that the non-felons, wife-beaters, and drug-addicts around me were carrying weapons than I would walking down the street knowing it is likely that the only people I see that have guns are the criminals!

Keep in mind, I'm not your typical no-compromise gun fanatic.  I support sensible measures, like NICS (National Instant Check System), which lets a gun store check a person for felony convictions, commitments, restraining orders, and such in about 15 minutes before selling them a gun.  I don't support waiting periods, which, studies show, tend to get stalked women killed.  'Assault weapons' bans are a joke: criminals don't obey them, the guns are no more dangerous than any others, and they are not used in crimes with any regularity (less than half a percent, IIRC).  I have a half-dozen rifles that are nearly identical in every way to weapons on the banned list that are completely legal for me to own and shoot - so why can I have an AR built on a Colt Carbine lower receiver but not one built off a Colt AR-15 lower receiver?  Because gun laws are written predominantly to assuage the fears and shouts of witless constituents - not to reduce crime.

Oh, and for the definitionally impaired:

kill: to deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay.

murder: the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:  words mean things.  That's how language works.  You don't get redefine a word every time your use of it in an argument demonstrates your lack of understanding of what it actually means.  One cannot murder someone one thinks is trying to kill you at the moment.  It's just not possible, and no amount of semantic masturbation will make it possible.

Forgive me for my ignorance, but it would appear that we are in agreement. Also, I appreciate your use of definitions though I cannot see how they are applicable to anything I have said thus far.

On an unrelated note, it's nice to see you back and debating again, JC.
Is Dino open source?

Quote from: grogberries


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Bob28

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #111 on: January 01, 2009, 11:12:46 AM »
guessed...not saying your wrong about your own town but this is a quote from wikipedia.
"Modern Caesarea is one of Israel's most upscale residential communities. The Baron de Rothschild still maintains a home in Caesarea, as do many business tycoons from Israel and abroad."  you might need to write wikipedia and tell them to update their site but they had stats from mid-2008 on there so it seems pretty up to date.  and i'm not trying to be sarcastic so if it seems that way i'm sorry i'm really not.  but on the whole i think we agree for the most part that gun control is not a solution to stopping crime. 


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Guessed

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #112 on: January 01, 2009, 11:25:07 AM »
guessed...not saying your wrong about your own town but this is a quote from wikipedia.
"Modern Caesarea is one of Israel's most upscale residential communities. The Baron de Rothschild still maintains a home in Caesarea, as do many business tycoons from Israel and abroad."  you might need to write wikipedia and tell them to update their site but they had stats from mid-2008 on there so it seems pretty up to date.  and i'm not trying to be sarcastic so if it seems that way i'm sorry i'm really not.  but on the whole i think we agree for the most part that gun control is not a solution to stopping crime. 



Caeasarea is a small farming town in Ontario ( or it was until the agriculture industry collapsed there, now it's a Hell's Angels hub). Just as there is a London Ontario, and several Paris(es) in North America.  It's a good thing you clarified for sarcasm actually, because I was just about to tear a strip out of you. But yes, we agree on most other points. It's not a matter of outlawing guns, but controling who gets said guns, which is quite frankly common sense in my opinion.
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Bob28

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #113 on: January 01, 2009, 11:40:04 AM »
guessed...not saying your wrong about your own town but this is a quote from wikipedia.
"Modern Caesarea is one of Israel's most upscale residential communities. The Baron de Rothschild still maintains a home in Caesarea, as do many business tycoons from Israel and abroad."  you might need to write wikipedia and tell them to update their site but they had stats from mid-2008 on there so it seems pretty up to date.  and i'm not trying to be sarcastic so if it seems that way i'm sorry i'm really not.  but on the whole i think we agree for the most part that gun control is not a solution to stopping crime. 



Caeasarea is a small farming town in Ontario ( or it was until the agriculture industry collapsed there, now it's a Hell's Angels hub). Just as there is a London Ontario, and several Paris(es) in North America.  It's a good thing you clarified for sarcasm actually, because I was just about to tear a strip out of you. But yes, we agree on most other points. It's not a matter of outlawing guns, but controling who gets said guns, which is quite frankly common sense in my opinion.

yea the only town by that name it brought up ws in Israel, i guess it doesnt know about the one in Ontario.  i agree that we should regulate who can get guns but much the way we do in america now.  if you're a convicted felon then you can never own a gun...legally that is.  of course anyone who wants a gun can get it illegally. 

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #114 on: January 01, 2009, 12:42:04 PM »
guessed...not saying your wrong about your own town but this is a quote from wikipedia.
"Modern Caesarea is one of Israel's most upscale residential communities. The Baron de Rothschild still maintains a home in Caesarea, as do many business tycoons from Israel and abroad."  you might need to write wikipedia and tell them to update their site but they had stats from mid-2008 on there so it seems pretty up to date.  and i'm not trying to be sarcastic so if it seems that way i'm sorry i'm really not.  but on the whole i think we agree for the most part that gun control is not a solution to stopping crime. 



Caeasarea is a small farming town in Ontario ( or it was until the agriculture industry collapsed there, now it's a Hell's Angels hub). Just as there is a London Ontario, and several Paris(es) in North America.  It's a good thing you clarified for sarcasm actually, because I was just about to tear a strip out of you. But yes, we agree on most other points. It's not a matter of outlawing guns, but controling who gets said guns, which is quite frankly common sense in my opinion.

I agree with this, there needs to be better safeguards in place for keeping guns out of the hands of criminals.  I do not believe that banning all people (law abiding or otherwise) from carrying or owning guns will accomplish this goal.  I think the most effective way of ensuring this is to simply put the people who are violent criminals in jail for good, mandatory sentencing has proven to be very effective in the long run for states in the U.S. who have implemented them.  It will not stop every shooting spree however, which is why we need to ensure the people will not be helpless in such situations.

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Benocrates

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #115 on: January 01, 2009, 12:42:17 PM »
I enjoy shooting skeet when I goto Virginia, but those guns aren't as ridiculous as handguns and don't necessarily cause undue risk. Handguns are similar to switchblades, both being unreasonably dangerous to allow for legal possession. The ability for self defense must have a limit, or else tanks and other military weaponry would have to be allowed.
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #116 on: January 01, 2009, 12:50:04 PM »
I enjoy shooting skeet when I goto Virginia, but those guns aren't as ridiculous as handguns and don't necessarily cause undue risk. Handguns are similar to switchblades, both being unreasonably dangerous to allow for legal possession. The ability for self defense must have a limit, or else tanks and other military weaponry would have to be allowed.

But why do I have anything to fear from law abiding citizens having them.  Also, handguns are the weapon of choice for self defense in the U.S.  Long guns are not practical for carrying on your person for this purpose.

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Bob28

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #117 on: January 01, 2009, 12:56:47 PM »
I enjoy shooting skeet when I goto Virginia, but those guns aren't as ridiculous as handguns and don't necessarily cause undue risk. Handguns are similar to switchblades, both being unreasonably dangerous to allow for legal possession. The ability for self defense must have a limit, or else tanks and other military weaponry would have to be allowed.

the average person is only gonna be accurate with a handgun up to probably 30-40 meters, thats not an official stat but i would guess thats pretty close, handguns are extremely inaccurate at distances much more than that unless you are very skilled with it.  most self defense shootings are within a small distance and a shotgun within a small distance is much more damaging than a hand gun.  but either would kill you so i guess this argument is moot.  guns aren't risky if the person handling it is safe.  if someone broke into your house with a gun to kill you and your family would you rather have a gun or a switchblade to defend them with?

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Benocrates

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #118 on: January 01, 2009, 01:08:28 PM »
I already acknoledged the legitimacy of long rifles, and the illegitimacy of hand guns because of their potential for misuse and abuse. My argument was that both handguns and switchblades are (at least in Canada) illegal for the same reasons, and so should be. To say that they will be in the hands of law abiding citizens means little, as a person with a "law abiding" can still be in a position to use their handgun illegally, like a fit of passion.

   I'll acknowledge the potential for misuse of almost any dangerous item, such as kitchen knives or cars, but the potential with handguns are significantly higher. It's unfortunate that when faced with a home invasion murder, you wont have a gun to protect yourself. But a judgment must be made with defense weaponry. Should it not then be legitimate for a "law-abiding" citizen should be allowed to outfit their property with machine gun nests and mine fields?
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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #119 on: January 01, 2009, 01:12:04 PM »
Handguns are not any more useful than a rifle to murder someone. They are perfect for self defense having low penetration ability, if they are hollow points they will penetrate even less lowering the chance you will shoot through the wall killing a family member.

A switch blade is no more effective than any assisted opening knife and is banned more for the comfort of people and the stereotype surrounding it.

Handguns can be legitimately used for hunting and make it much more fair with their low range. Making hunting a challenging affair involving stalking the game.

If you make a handgun illegal, what do you do when someone walks into your room bringing a shotgun?