Poll

Is gun control an effective means of reducing violent crime

Yes.  People cannot be trusted with guns for any reason.  If the population is not armed, then there are less guns in the hands of criminals.  As a result there will be less violent crime
Yes.  But only for gun crimes, it will have no effect on other types of violent crimes
Yes and no.  It may reduce crimes commited with guns, but criminal will then resort to other weapons such as knives.  Other violent crimes will increase
No.  Criminals will get guns despite the law, it will have no effect on crime
No.  Not only will criminals ignore this law and get guns illegally, but such laws will make for easier victims since they will not be armed.  Crime rates will increase

Gun Control

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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #120 on: January 01, 2009, 01:13:06 PM »
Bust out your AK-47, of course.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Benocrates

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #121 on: January 01, 2009, 01:14:36 PM »
Handguns are not any more useful than a rifle to murder someone. They are perfect for self defense having low penetration ability, if they are hollow points they will penetrate even less lowering the chance you will shoot through the wall killing a family member.

A switch blade is no more effective than any assisted opening knife and is banned more for the comfort of people and the stereotype surrounding it.

Handguns can be legitimately used for hunting and make it much more fair with their low range. Making hunting a challenging affair involving stalking the game.

If you make a handgun illegal, what do you do when someone walks into your room bringing a shotgun?

this is a weak argument for someone of your caliber
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Bob28

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #122 on: January 01, 2009, 01:17:00 PM »
I already acknoledged the legitimacy of long rifles, and the illegitimacy of hand guns because of their potential for misuse and abuse. My argument was that both handguns and switchblades are (at least in Canada) illegal for the same reasons, and so should be. To say that they will be in the hands of law abiding citizens means little, as a person with a "law abiding" can still be in a position to use their handgun illegally, like a fit of passion.

   I'll acknowledge the potential for misuse of almost any dangerous item, such as kitchen knives or cars, but the potential with handguns are significantly higher. It's unfortunate that when faced with a home invasion murder, you wont have a gun to protect yourself. But a judgment must be made with defense weaponry. Should it not then be legitimate for a "law-abiding" citizen should be allowed to outfit their property with machine gun nests and mine fields?

like you said a kitchen knife or a car can be used as a deadly weapon by a law abiding citizen in a fit of passion, almost anything can be a weapon.  to say its unfortunate that you wont be armed in a home invasion is really disturbing to me.  so you would accept the fact that someone could kill your whole family and you have no weapon to try and defend them with, but thats ok with you somehow?  i dont understand that at all.  gun control keeps guns out of law abiding citizens hands, criminals already break laws so why would they obey a gun control law?

read this its short
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/lemieux1.html

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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #123 on: January 01, 2009, 01:18:15 PM »
Handguns are not any more useful than a rifle to murder someone. They are perfect for self defense having low penetration ability, if they are hollow points they will penetrate even less lowering the chance you will shoot through the wall killing a family member.

A switch blade is no more effective than any assisted opening knife and is banned more for the comfort of people and the stereotype surrounding it.

Handguns can be legitimately used for hunting and make it much more fair with their low range. Making hunting a challenging affair involving stalking the game.

If you make a handgun illegal, what do you do when someone walks into your room bringing a shotgun?

this is a weak argument for someone of your caliber

I'm hung over on everclear, and very tired.

Your argument was also very weak. Just because anyone could become a criminal does not mean that they will. If we had that attitude countries should restrict the availability of all weapons, (including forks, sharp objects, broken glass, any substance in a large enough quantity to be poisonous) because we can't trust law abiding citizens.

Those who have not broken a law, should not be treated like they have.

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Benocrates

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #124 on: January 01, 2009, 01:27:45 PM »
I already acknowledged the possibility for all dangerous items to be used as a weapon (its like you people don't read very carefully), but followed the logic to machine guns and mine fields in your home to be sure of safety. You must understand that a line has to be drawn somewhere, and I believe that the risk overall prohibits the legitimacy of handguns, sawed off shotguns, switchblades, grenades, etc.
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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #125 on: January 01, 2009, 01:32:43 PM »
I already acknowledged the possibility for all dangerous items to be used as a weapon (its like you people don't read very carefully), but followed the logic to machine guns and mine fields in your home to be sure of safety. You must understand that a line has to be drawn somewhere, and I believe that the risk overall prohibits the legitimacy of handguns, sawed off shotguns, switchblades, grenades, etc.

Ah but a handgun is as much protection as an individual needs. Land mines are not self defense because they kill indiscriminately, therefore are murder. Machine guns are illegal because putting out multiple rounds quickly does not help you defend yourself, but simply endangers others. A handgun in fact is taylored specifically for self defense, not for murder. It has a very low range, meaning it is only used for hurting people close enough to be a threat, it holds relatively few rounds, because it would only take a few at close range, and the bullets are designed to fragment and destroy themselves instead of going through walls, because someone behind a wall is not a threat.

Your argument is an appeal to emotions attached to objects. You know that.

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Benocrates

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #126 on: January 01, 2009, 01:35:59 PM »
I disagree with appeal to emotion, in the sense that I was highlighting the link between handguns and military weapons. I think the argument has to come to a relativly subjective judgment on reasonableness. Perhaps there can't be much objective discussion beyond that.
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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #127 on: January 01, 2009, 01:38:23 PM »
I presented facts about why they are reasonable for self defense. Do you have any facts about how they turn a normal person into a murderer?
(in b4 crimes of passion which could happen with any dangerous object in reach)

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Benocrates

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #128 on: January 01, 2009, 01:42:07 PM »
I didn't say they turn people into murder, I said the potential for injury in an unplanned or accidental shooting is unreasonably high compared to other defense weaponry. I'm thinking about incidents of mistaken identity, mistaken fact (thinking you're being attacked), rage, etc in which the lethal result of an unplanned shooting is far more significant than a taser, for example. It's the reason tasers don't have a lethal setting.
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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #129 on: January 01, 2009, 01:45:15 PM »
I didn't say they turn people into murder, I said the potential for injury in an unplanned or accidental shooting is unreasonably high compared to other defense weaponry. I'm thinking about incidents of mistaken identity, mistaken fact (thinking you're being attacked), rage, etc in which the lethal result of an unplanned shooting is far more significant than a taser, for example. It's the reason tasers don't have a lethal setting.

Tasers are far more dangerous, they can cause death (and have in cases) but people feel that they can use them with no ill effect. Imagine tasering someone that barely crossed the line and killing them. Or what about children getting ahold of one, with their small size, it could easily lead to death.

Final point on tasers, crazy/drugged people have been known to rip tazers out of their own skin and keep coming at people.

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Benocrates

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #130 on: January 01, 2009, 01:53:02 PM »
   are you actually saying that tasers are more dangerous than handguns? That can only be legitimate if you use the argument that people misuse them more because of their feeling of security in the limited lethality of them. I disagree with this argument, because I'm sure the statistics would back up the claim that more people have been killed by handgun shots than tasers, taking the proportions of shootings and tasings into consideration.

   Not to mention the low lethality of tasers for most people and the relative safety of using them. The difference between the taser and the handgun is in reasonableness, which may for the most part come from a subjective decision as I said earlier.

As for the ineffectiveness of a taser on a determined attacker, I argue that a certain level of personal security must be sacrificed for the general safety of a society. As follows with the military hardware being an advantage against a group home invasion, the relative danger outweigs the allowance for personal safety.
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The Terror

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #131 on: January 01, 2009, 01:55:23 PM »
I didn't say they turn people into murder, I said the potential for injury in an unplanned or accidental shooting is unreasonably high compared to other defense weaponry. I'm thinking about incidents of mistaken identity, mistaken fact (thinking you're being attacked), rage, etc in which the lethal result of an unplanned shooting is far more significant than a taser, for example. It's the reason tasers don't have a lethal setting.

Tasers are far more dangerous, they can cause death (and have in cases) but people feel that they can use them with no ill effect. Imagine tasering someone that barely crossed the line and killing them. Or what about children getting ahold of one, with their small size, it could easily lead to death.

Final point on tasers, crazy/drugged people have been known to rip tazers out of their own skin and keep coming at people.

All the same, I'd rather be shot with a taser than a pistol.

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Bob28

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #132 on: January 01, 2009, 01:56:13 PM »
I already acknowledged the possibility for all dangerous items to be used as a weapon (its like you people don't read very carefully), but followed the logic to machine guns and mine fields in your home to be sure of safety. You must understand that a line has to be drawn somewhere, and I believe that the risk overall prohibits the legitimacy of handguns, sawed off shotguns, switchblades, grenades, etc.

to say allowing people handguns will lead to landmines and machine gun nests is a pretty big stretch.  a line has been drawn, and it includes handguns because they are safe in the hand of a responsible person.  all weapons are safe in the hands of a responsible person but for the reasons Raist mentioned they aren't all allowed.  if you dont want to carry a handgun you have every right not to, but dont try and decide for everyone else.  criminals are gonna carry them whether or not you want them to so i'd rather have one to defend myself with, if you dont want to then don't.

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Benocrates

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #133 on: January 01, 2009, 01:59:10 PM »
I didn't say handguns lead to land mines. And you didn't make any new arguments beyond saying a line has been drawn. How old are you? I'm gonna guess 14-16
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The Terror

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #134 on: January 01, 2009, 01:59:51 PM »
I remember reading that the majority of people shot in burglaries tend to be homeowners shot with their own guns. Granted, I read it in a Michael Moore book so it might not actually be true, but it's something to consider.

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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #135 on: January 01, 2009, 02:03:25 PM »
   are you actually saying that tasers are more dangerous than handguns? That can only be legitimate if you use the argument that people misuse them more because of their feeling of security in the limited lethality of them. I disagree with this argument, because I'm sure the statistics would back up the claim that more people have been killed by handgun shots than tasers, taking the proportions of shootings and tasings into consideration.

   Not to mention the low lethality of tasers for most people and the relative safety of using them. The difference between the taser and the handgun is in reasonableness, which may for the most part come from a subjective decision as I said earlier.

As for the ineffectiveness of a taser on a determined attacker, I argue that a certain level of personal security must be sacrificed for the general safety of a society. As follows with the military hardware being an advantage against a group home invasion, the relative danger outweigs the allowance for personal safety.

Sacrificing personal security for society is the beginning of tyranny.

Your argument on number of incidents wouldn't work either because of the availability of both, but I have seen tasers misused in my life time. I've seen people taser each other out of boredom. They give a false feeling of non lethality and therefore are dangerous.

Why should we have to give up a handgun simply because an attacker would be killed?

The main issue in the United States is the Bill of Rights. It guarantees our right to arms. I say a people's right to overthrow their government is more important than lives lost due to misuse. Yes the relative danger of our government outweighs the rights of people who are scared of criminals.

While we have a government that declares police are not there to protect us, we should have the capability to protect ourselves. (A taser is a less reliable weapon, batteries will lose charge while sitting in your drawer, bullets thankfully will fire for years)

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khastman

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #136 on: January 02, 2009, 02:31:13 PM »
Look, I'm all for keeping guns, but I think giving everyone a gun will just not end up well. I shoot for sport at my local gun club, and it's really fun. But I don't see the point in keeping more than one or two guns, and I think it might be a bit better if we just put a tax on bullets. A criminal isn't going to rob the 7-11 and get $20 if he has to spend $30 on a box of bullets, right? Sports clubs should be able to have the same normal price though, with tighter restrictions there to ensure bullets don't go home with someone. If you really want to shoot an M16 just get an electric airsoft gun for alot cheaper.

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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #137 on: January 02, 2009, 02:35:04 PM »
Look, I'm all for keeping guns, but I think giving everyone a gun will just not end up well. I shoot for sport at my local gun club, and it's really fun. But I don't see the point in keeping more than one or two guns, and I think it might be a bit better if we just put a tax on bullets. A criminal isn't going to rob the 7-11 and get $20 if he has to spend $30 on a box of bullets, right? Sports clubs should be able to have the same normal price though, with tighter restrictions there to ensure bullets don't go home with someone. If you really want to shoot an M16 just get an electric airsoft gun for alot cheaper.

What about people that own property and want to target practice. My dad taught me to shoot a gun better than most, and I've never set foot in a target range.

We definitely didn't have the money to drop 30 dollars on a box of shells, and criminals only need one clip of bullets, they could rob a thousand stores and never fire them, then you have to consider people that reuse bullets, would they tax those supplies? If not then there would be a huge black market in bullets.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #138 on: January 06, 2009, 05:52:41 AM »
I didn't say they turn people into murder, I said the potential for injury in an unplanned or accidental shooting is unreasonably high compared to other defense weaponry. I'm thinking about incidents of mistaken identity, mistaken fact (thinking you're being attacked), rage, etc in which the lethal result of an unplanned shooting is far more significant than a taser, for example. It's the reason tasers don't have a lethal setting.

Tasers are far more dangerous, they can cause death (and have in cases) but people feel that they can use them with no ill effect. Imagine tasering someone that barely crossed the line and killing them. Or what about children getting ahold of one, with their small size, it could easily lead to death.

Final point on tasers, crazy/drugged people have been known to rip tazers out of their own skin and keep coming at people.

All the same, I'd rather be shot with a taser than a pistol.

If multiple criminals were breaking into your house, and you did not know their intentions, would you rather have a taser, which only has one shot, or a pistol, which has 6 or more.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 06:03:10 AM by ragnarr »

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KingMan

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #139 on: January 06, 2009, 06:55:52 AM »
I didn't say they turn people into murder, I said the potential for injury in an unplanned or accidental shooting is unreasonably high compared to other defense weaponry. I'm thinking about incidents of mistaken identity, mistaken fact (thinking you're being attacked), rage, etc in which the lethal result of an unplanned shooting is far more significant than a taser, for example. It's the reason tasers don't have a lethal setting.

Tasers are far more dangerous, they can cause death (and have in cases) but people feel that they can use them with no ill effect. Imagine tasering someone that barely crossed the line and killing them. Or what about children getting ahold of one, with their small size, it could easily lead to death.

Final point on tasers, crazy/drugged people have been known to rip tazers out of their own skin and keep coming at people.

All the same, I'd rather be shot with a taser than a pistol.

If multiple criminals were breaking into your house, and you did not know their intentions, would you rather have a taser, which only has one shot, or a pistol, which has 6 or more.
I would want an m4. That holds like 20 right?
I hate myself for coming here

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Moonlit

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #140 on: January 06, 2009, 07:43:36 AM »
Because I don't really have the time to read all of these pages, I just want to add this.

Almost anything you can put your hands on can be used as a deadly weapon.  If a man goes crazed and can't buy a gun to shoot his wife, you can bet he'll use other means.  If a criminal decides to kill the guy that stole his drug money and he can't buy a gun legally, he's going to get it elsewhere.  There's no way of stopping crime from happening.  Some people are just violent by nature and others are just teetering on the edge of insanity.  They'll kill no matter what.  Guns have nothing to do with motive and/or the criminal's decision to commit the crime.
You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?

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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #141 on: January 06, 2009, 09:51:03 AM »
Or we could just forget law if people are going to ignore it anyway, and just give people guns to defend themselves. How's that sound?
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #142 on: January 06, 2009, 10:30:58 AM »
Or we could just forget law if people are going to ignore it anyway, and just give people guns to defend themselves. How's that sound?

How about we put the criminals away for good instead of letting them back out on the street, and allow the law abiding the ability to effectively defend themselves from those who ignore the law.

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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #143 on: January 06, 2009, 10:32:15 AM »
If you aren't going to allow people to be rehabilitated, why not just shoot them on sight?
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #144 on: January 06, 2009, 10:36:40 AM »
One advantage Americans will have is we will be prepared...........when the ZOMBIES come.

/humor

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #145 on: January 06, 2009, 10:40:00 AM »
If you aren't going to allow people to be rehabilitated, why not just shoot them on sight?

since when does prison rehabilitate felons.  It's basically criminal school in there.  Come to jail and learn to be a better more effective and smarter criminal so you don't get caught next time.

I personally don't care what you do with them, but if they are a rapist, killer, etc.  I don't want them back on the street.

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #146 on: January 06, 2009, 10:59:01 AM »
If you aren't going to allow people to be rehabilitated, why not just shoot them on sight?

since when does prison rehabilitate felons.  It's basically criminal school in there.  Come to jail and learn to be a better more effective and smarter criminal so you don't get caught next time.

I personally don't care what you do with them, but if they are a rapist, killer, etc.  I don't want them back on the street.

Just because the prisons in your country are shit doesn't mean that prisons in other countries don't rehabilitate felons.
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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #147 on: January 06, 2009, 11:02:37 AM »
We just need to let guards beat prisoners again. Then they will be scared of prison again.

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #148 on: January 06, 2009, 11:13:54 AM »
Yeah cos that would help  ::)
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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #149 on: January 06, 2009, 11:14:25 AM »
Yeah cos that would help  ::)

Would you be willing to go to prison if you were beaten constantly?