Poll

Is gun control an effective means of reducing violent crime

Yes.  People cannot be trusted with guns for any reason.  If the population is not armed, then there are less guns in the hands of criminals.  As a result there will be less violent crime
Yes.  But only for gun crimes, it will have no effect on other types of violent crimes
Yes and no.  It may reduce crimes commited with guns, but criminal will then resort to other weapons such as knives.  Other violent crimes will increase
No.  Criminals will get guns despite the law, it will have no effect on crime
No.  Not only will criminals ignore this law and get guns illegally, but such laws will make for easier victims since they will not be armed.  Crime rates will increase
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Gun Control

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #60 on: December 30, 2008, 01:59:08 PM »
Quote from: General Douchebag on December 30, 2008, 11:44:35 AM
What sort of society is it when everybody needs to have a gun just so they aren't mugged, raped and murdered? We learned how to kick the shit out of an armed person with nothing over here. I overheard this story on a bus, so it's probably not true, but there was the story of someone who was up against an armed burglar and had only a can of Lynx. So they pretended to be trying to reason with them, all the while manoeuvring around to place a lit candle between them and the burglar. Then they sprayed the Lynx past the candle and on to the burglar, then kicked the blazing man out of the window. You may not believe it, but this is Glasgow, and we head butt terrorists here .

As if anyone tries to rob a Glaswegian! that's like having a sumo wrestle with a locomotive!
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #61 on: December 30, 2008, 02:23:48 PM »
Quote from: General Douchebag on December 30, 2008, 11:44:35 AM
What sort of society is it when everybody needs to have a gun just so they aren't mugged, raped and murdered? We learned how to kick the shit out of an armed person with nothing over here. I overheard this story on a bus, so it's probably not true, but there was the story of someone who was up against an armed burglar and had only a can of Lynx. So they pretended to be trying to reason with them, all the while manoeuvring around to place a lit candle between them and the burglar. Then they sprayed the Lynx past the candle and on to the burglar, then kicked the blazing man out of the window. You may not believe it, but this is Glasgow, and we head butt terrorists here .

Unfortunately most of us are not martial arts masters.  Few are, for the average citizen, you chances of survival is better if you have a gun.

Though this happened recently, pretty awesome:

http://mmamania.com/2008/10/06/dumbest-robbers-ever/
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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #62 on: December 30, 2008, 03:43:37 PM »
It doesn't take a martial arts master to spray deodorant, unless you're referring to the headbutting of a terrorist, but you still don't have to be. lol@assumingGlasgowisfullofninja
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Quote from: Baseball4Life on April 16, 2010, 09:54:41 AM
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>
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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #63 on: December 30, 2008, 09:56:12 PM »
Oh ok. If you say so.

I meant if there were stiffer penalties. In your country only the rich are allowed guns, which I guess is the norm for England. Treat those of good birth to more rights.
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britishgent

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #64 on: December 30, 2008, 10:20:53 PM »
Guns are getting more and more common in England I've first hand evidence of their increased supply. It's a reaction to the percieved rise in knife crime. They're not being widely used yet but their availability has risen dramatically. The non-criminal possession of guns is generally restricted to those of good standing who hunt or have some other requirement. However in rural areas unlicensed hunting guns are fairly common as there aren't many police about and the guns themselves tend to be inherited
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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #65 on: December 30, 2008, 10:24:23 PM »
So guns are only really owned for illegal purposes or by the rich?
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britishgent

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #66 on: December 30, 2008, 10:30:01 PM »
Or the farmers who bother to stay licensed. Which is tedious and costly.
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Jesus Crotch

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #67 on: December 31, 2008, 01:06:58 AM »
Well, it's really hard not to go off here, because this is a big deal to me.  I'll try to be brief.

History leaves no doubt as to the nature of armed citizenry versus one living under gun control.  There is only one reason to disarm a society, and that is to subjugate it.  When they outlawed and collected most firearms in Australia, the following 12 month period yielded ridiculous increases in murder, armed robbery, and violent crime in general.  When Florida, USA became a 'shall issue' state, meaning any citizen legally qualified to own a firearm would be issued a concealed carry permit on application and completion of training and qualification, the rate of robberies of homes businesses dropped sharply, while the rate of crimes against tourists (rental carjackings, muggings, etc.) skyrocketed.

If I could fix things here, we'd have a Citizen, not a standing army.  Think a cross between Switzerland and Israel - everyone does at least a year, learns the basics, and takes home an M4, a couple cans of ammo, and a fully stocked molle pack (well, the lucky ones would have a SAW).  There would be an unenforced law requiring qualified citizens to carry a loaded, concealed firearm at all times.

I maintain current, non-resident permits out of Utah and Florida, a C&R FFL, which allows me to get military surplus rifles mailed to my doorstep, and am working on getting my CCW in California, where I live.  I can't legally carry here now, but I can and do when I'm out of state, which is fairly regularly.

Wardogg - you'd take the challenge, but you're a Marine.  You know most of the Soldiers can't shoot worth a shit in comparison - and don't get me started on the Navy!  I've been to a few shooting tournaments, and those men fly their flags high.  The only ones consistently good are the Marines.
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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #68 on: December 31, 2008, 06:54:54 AM »
That I can agree with, because it at least ensures that everyone who has one knows how to use it properly, and as long as these are the only guns, it makes sure that they're all licensed, and an unlicensed gun is easy to spot.
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Quote from: Baseball4Life on April 16, 2010, 09:54:41 AM
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>
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Moonlit

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #69 on: December 31, 2008, 08:08:49 AM »
I'm a gun owner, myself.  I feel I have the right to protect myself and my family.  Gun laws aren't going to stop criminals from owning them.  Innocent citizens will be unarmed and unable to protect themselves.  I have no problem pulling that trigger if anyone ever threatens my family.  I don't think anyone should ever be afraid to protect themselves from criminials.

A few years ago I was home with my sister watching TV.  A couple of my friends had just left and it was about 1 am.  We only had one car at the time and my husband had it with him at work.  Sometime after my friends left I fell asleep watching the TV.  All the sudden my sister jumps on top of me and shouts, pointing at the front door windows.  Someone was unscrewing the motion light and peeking in the window.  I immediately jumped up, ran to the bedroom and grabbed my husband's SKS.  The guy was in my driveway when I came out the door and he began to run.  I shouted at the top of my lungs, "Get back here so I can blow your fucking head off!"  Like when a blowfish feels threatened they blow up to intimidate it's attacker.  That's what I did.  The funny thing is the gun's safety was on and I didn't know how to turn it off.  The next day my husband took me to a gun shop and bought me a 38 special.  We went to the shooting range and I learned how my gun works.  Now I feel safe. 
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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #70 on: December 31, 2008, 09:56:51 AM »
My Dad don't need a gun, someone robbed some stuff out of his van while we were at home, he rushed straight out, floored the van and pinned one guy against a fence with it. He got the stuff back and the others ran.

Just shouting at a criminal is usually enough but it helps if you're an angry white van man with a total disregard for petty things like 'speed limits'
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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #71 on: December 31, 2008, 10:18:05 AM »
Quote from: goldstein on December 31, 2008, 08:42:18 AM
Quote from: Raist on December 30, 2008, 09:56:12 PM
In your country only the rich are allowed guns, which I guess is the norm for England. Treat those of good birth to more rights.

*faceslap*

I don't know where you pulled that little factoid from. I can't even begin to... no.. I'm trying... but its just such an insanely stupid thing to say I think I'll just leave it intact.

So how much land do you need to own a gun? How much do the licenses cost? How often do you have to renew them?
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cbarnett97

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #72 on: December 31, 2008, 10:49:18 AM »
Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on December 31, 2008, 09:56:51 AM
My Dad don't need a gun, someone robbed some stuff out of his van while we were at home, he rushed straight out, floored the van and pinned one guy against a fence with it. He got the stuff back and the others ran.

Just shouting at a criminal is usually enough but it helps if you're an angry white van man with a total disregard for petty things like 'speed limits'
That is it! We need stricter van control  ;D
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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #73 on: December 31, 2008, 10:57:07 AM »
Quote from: cbarnett97 on December 31, 2008, 10:49:18 AM
Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on December 31, 2008, 09:56:51 AM
My Dad don't need a gun, someone robbed some stuff out of his van while we were at home, he rushed straight out, floored the van and pinned one guy against a fence with it. He got the stuff back and the others ran.

Just shouting at a criminal is usually enough but it helps if you're an angry white van man with a total disregard for petty things like 'speed limits'
That is it! We need stricter van control  ;D

It is the right of all men to own a white Ford transit for transport or intimidation of others! To ban them is unconstitutional!
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cbarnett97

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #74 on: December 31, 2008, 11:40:29 AM »
Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on December 31, 2008, 10:57:07 AM
Quote from: cbarnett97 on December 31, 2008, 10:49:18 AM
Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on December 31, 2008, 09:56:51 AM
My Dad don't need a gun, someone robbed some stuff out of his van while we were at home, he rushed straight out, floored the van and pinned one guy against a fence with it. He got the stuff back and the others ran.

Just shouting at a criminal is usually enough but it helps if you're an angry white van man with a total disregard for petty things like 'speed limits'
That is it! We need stricter van control  ;D

It is the right of all men to own a white Ford transit for transport or intimidation of others! To ban them is unconstitutional!
They need to be banned, look at the statistics. the Uganda has no vans and they have the lowest "being run over by a van" rates in the world!
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #75 on: December 31, 2008, 11:46:32 AM »
Quote from: Moonlit on December 31, 2008, 08:08:49 AM
I'm a gun owner, myself.  I feel I have the right to protect myself and my family.  Gun laws aren't going to stop criminals from owning them.  Innocent citizens will be unarmed and unable to protect themselves.  I have no problem pulling that trigger if anyone ever threatens my family.  I don't think anyone should ever be afraid to protect themselves from criminials.

A few years ago I was home with my sister watching TV.  A couple of my friends had just left and it was about 1 am.  We only had one car at the time and my husband had it with him at work.  Sometime after my friends left I fell asleep watching the TV.  All the sudden my sister jumps on top of me and shouts, pointing at the front door windows.  Someone was unscrewing the motion light and peeking in the window.  I immediately jumped up, ran to the bedroom and grabbed my husband's SKS.  The guy was in my driveway when I came out the door and he began to run.  I shouted at the top of my lungs, "Get back here so I can blow your fucking head off!"  Like when a blowfish feels threatened they blow up to intimidate it's attacker.  That's what I did.  The funny thing is the gun's safety was on and I didn't know how to turn it off.  The next day my husband took me to a gun shop and bought me a 38 special.  We went to the shooting range and I learned how my gun works.  Now I feel safe. 

Just goes to show that criminals avoid armed citizens.  In Maryland they have passed all kinds of liberal bullshit that strips us of our rights to self defense and property defense.  That's why I would like to move to Virginia.
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cbarnett97

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #76 on: December 31, 2008, 11:48:52 AM »
Quote from: ragnarr on December 31, 2008, 11:46:32 AM
Quote from: Moonlit on December 31, 2008, 08:08:49 AM
I'm a gun owner, myself.  I feel I have the right to protect myself and my family.  Gun laws aren't going to stop criminals from owning them.  Innocent citizens will be unarmed and unable to protect themselves.  I have no problem pulling that trigger if anyone ever threatens my family.  I don't think anyone should ever be afraid to protect themselves from criminials.

A few years ago I was home with my sister watching TV.  A couple of my friends had just left and it was about 1 am.  We only had one car at the time and my husband had it with him at work.  Sometime after my friends left I fell asleep watching the TV.  All the sudden my sister jumps on top of me and shouts, pointing at the front door windows.  Someone was unscrewing the motion light and peeking in the window.  I immediately jumped up, ran to the bedroom and grabbed my husband's SKS.  The guy was in my driveway when I came out the door and he began to run.  I shouted at the top of my lungs, "Get back here so I can blow your fucking head off!"  Like when a blowfish feels threatened they blow up to intimidate it's attacker.  That's what I did.  The funny thing is the gun's safety was on and I didn't know how to turn it off.  The next day my husband took me to a gun shop and bought me a 38 special.  We went to the shooting range and I learned how my gun works.  Now I feel safe. 

Just goes to show that criminals avoid armed citizens.  In Maryland they have passed all kinds of liberal bullshit that strips us of our rights to self defense and property defense.  That's why I would like to move to Virginia.
and how many people think twice before they go sneaking around someones house in Arizona or Texas
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Jesus Crotch

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #77 on: December 31, 2008, 11:53:40 AM »
Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on December 31, 2008, 09:56:51 AM
My Dad don't need a gun, someone robbed some stuff out of his van while we were at home, he rushed straight out, floored the van and pinned one guy against a fence with it. He got the stuff back and the others ran.

Just shouting at a criminal is usually enough but it helps if you're an angry white van man with a total disregard for petty things like 'speed limits'

Amazing!  Years of debate and political wrangling settled with one spec of anecdotal evidence.

Only the law abiding obey gun laws.  If the current federal administration achieves its gun-grabbing agenda, I will likely need to move.  I almost moved out of the PRK several years ago when the gun laws here became rather draconian.  I responded with minimum compliance, instead.  They passed a law limiting my purchases to one handgun per month - and I bought a handgun a month for almost a year and a half.  They made virtually every semi-automatic magazine-fed rifle illegal, I kept my Mini-14, and bought an SKS and PRK legal versions of the AK47 and the AR-15.  They said you couldn't buy a .50 caliber rifle after January 1st a few years ago, and I got me a lovely New Year's Eve present.

Think about this - most criminals are untrained.  They lack the basic discipline, sight picture knowledge and trigger control to correctly use the weapons of their trade.  The average CCW program requires 8 hours of instruction and a qualification test.  The test I took for Florida requires a higher degree of accuracy (albeit without a rapid-fire test) than that of the LAPD's officer qualification test.  Had a permit holder been at Virginia Tech or Colombine at the right time, we very well could have three dead psychos and two fewer national tragedies.
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #78 on: December 31, 2008, 11:53:53 AM »
Here's some statistics for the ladies:

Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlando's rape rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the rest of Florida and the nation.

In 1979, the Carter Justice Department study found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a knife or a gun, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful.
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cbarnett97

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #79 on: December 31, 2008, 12:03:17 PM »
One of my favorite gun stories:
In 1997, a sixteen-year-old kid stabbed his mother to death and then went to school with a rifle where he shot 9 students, killing 2 of them. An assistant Principal had to run out to his car, where heretrieved his handgun, and used it to subdue the kid until police arrived
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #80 on: December 31, 2008, 12:05:15 PM »
Quote from: Jesus Crotch on December 31, 2008, 11:53:40 AM
Had a permit holder been at Virginia Tech or Colombine at the right time, we very well could have three dead psychos and two fewer national tragedies.

This is true as shown in the 1966 University of Texas sniping attack.  This was the famous lunatic who climbed the bell tower and started picking off students and staff.  After the initial shootings, students went back to their dorm rooms and frat houses and grabbed their rifles.  For 70 minutes they pinned the gunman down with gunfire, which allowed an armed civilian and two police officers to safely storm the tower and kill the assailant.

The retarded thing about this is as a result they banned guns on campus, we see how well that is working.  Who knows how many lives were saved because the students had the means to defend themselves. 

More on that here:

http://www.concealedcampus.org/washington_times_oped.pdf
« Last Edit: December 31, 2008, 01:08:30 PM by ragnarr »
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Benocrates

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #81 on: December 31, 2008, 02:23:07 PM »
guns are dumb, especially handguns. In Canada, hand guns are illegal and I'm pretty happy they are. Gun violence, save the exceptions of Toronto and other huge cities, is far less in Canada than the US, and it's a good thing. We have hunting rifles and shit like that, but they aren't the cause of crime.
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Pot had helped
Quote from: Parsifal on July 26, 2010, 04:39:24 PM
Get the fuck over it.
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cbarnett97

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #82 on: December 31, 2008, 02:31:49 PM »
Quote from: Benocrates on December 31, 2008, 02:23:07 PM
guns are dumb, especially handguns. In Canada, hand guns are illegal and I'm pretty happy they are. Gun violence, save the exceptions of Toronto and other huge cities, is far less in Canada than the US, and it's a good thing. We have hunting rifles and shit like that, but they aren't the cause of crime.
The same can be said in the U.S., Most of our gun violence only takes place in Urban areas as well.
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #83 on: December 31, 2008, 02:44:00 PM »
Quote from: Benocrates on December 31, 2008, 02:23:07 PM
guns are dumb, especially handguns. In Canada, hand guns are illegal and I'm pretty happy they are. Gun violence, save the exceptions of Toronto and other huge cities, is far less in Canada than the US, and it's a good thing. We have hunting rifles and shit like that, but they aren't the cause of crime.

What you should realize is even before Canada's handgun ban (which is not a total ban), their crime rate was already lower than that of the US.  Therefore I cannot credit their handgun ban with Canada's lower crime rate.  In fact since the ban, I believe the crime rate went up.  Canada should do what they have to, but I have never seen any statistic that shows a ban on any kind of gun has a positive effect on crime.

In D.C. for example, until a recent supreme court decision, there was a total ban on handguns for 30 years.  Nobody could even own one for any reason, even police officers were only allowed their duty weapon.

Before the ban in 77, crime rates were falling.  Since the ban, crime rates have steadily climbed.
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Benocrates

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #84 on: December 31, 2008, 02:45:54 PM »
I said gun violence, not crime
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Quote from: Parsifal on July 26, 2010, 04:39:24 PM
Get the fuck over it.
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #85 on: December 31, 2008, 03:19:08 PM »
Quote from: Benocrates on December 31, 2008, 02:45:54 PM
I said gun violence, not crime

If guns in the hands of law abiding citizens and away from the criminals keeps the violent crime rate low, and the murder rate as well, that is what I want.
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Bob28

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #86 on: December 31, 2008, 04:36:53 PM »
Quote from: Benocrates on December 31, 2008, 02:23:07 PM
guns are dumb, especially handguns. In Canada, hand guns are illegal and I'm pretty happy they are. Gun violence, save the exceptions of Toronto and other huge cities, is far less in Canada than the US, and it's a good thing. We have hunting rifles and shit like that, but they aren't the cause of crime.


guns aren't dumb you are.  guns in the US are for hunting, sport shooting and self defense.  i've yet to see the gun that was made strictly for murdering people (outside of the military of course but i dont consider that murder).  i have 9 guns, one for self defense and the rest for going to the range and shooting targets and for hunting.  guess how many people i've killed...0.  guns in the hands of law abiding citizens prevent crime.  gun control only takes guns from those who obey the law.  rapists, robbers and murderers obviously dont obey the law.  gun control just gives them more targets.  one of the first things Hitler did when he took over in Germany was take guns from citizens and we all see how that turned out.
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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #87 on: December 31, 2008, 04:46:44 PM »
Hunting is a pointless and cruel sport, and I will not change my mind on that until I see someone make a clean kill, sport shooting is training for killing and how does a gun defend other than by shooting people? As a matter of fact, killing people from another country or of another religion is still murder. And do you know what, Bush didn't take the guns away, and look what fucking happened there. Ragnarr, cbarnett and JC had almost changed my mind, until you charged in and I realised removing gun control leads to gun-nut redneck animal-mutilators (I'm fine with the killing of animals for food and goods, but just cut the throat, don't shoot it in the leg or wing and make it suffer, especially not for sport) that think that just because criminals have the same sense of self preservation as everybody else it somehow means that guns stop violence. Fuck it, why not just give dirty bombs to everybody if terrorists are just going to get a hold of them anyway, why not just shoot ourselves in the head to save ammo for some other law abiding citizen we happen to startle whilst sitting in our garden at night?
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Quote from: Baseball4Life on April 16, 2010, 09:54:41 AM
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>
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Bob28

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #88 on: December 31, 2008, 05:10:45 PM »
Quote from: General Douchebag on December 31, 2008, 04:46:44 PM
Hunting is a pointless and cruel sport, and I will not change my mind on that until I see someone make a clean kill, sport shooting is training for killing and how does a gun defend other than by shooting people? As a matter of fact, killing people from another country or of another religion is still murder. And do you know what, Bush didn't take the guns away, and look what fucking happened there. Ragnarr, cbarnett and JC had almost changed my mind, until you charged in and I realised removing gun control leads to gun-nut redneck animal-mutilators (I'm fine with the killing of animals for food and goods, but just cut the throat, don't shoot it in the leg or wing and make it suffer, especially not for sport) that think that just because criminals have the same sense of self preservation as everybody else it somehow means that guns stop violence. Fuck it, why not just give dirty bombs to everybody if terrorists are just going to get a hold of them anyway, why not just shoot ourselves in the head to save ammo for some other law abiding citizen we happen to startle whilst sitting in our garden at night?

dang you almost had your mind changed, that breaks my heart.  tell you what if you wanna shoot yourself in the head to save ammo be my guest, i'll even let you borrow my gun.  myself and everyone i know that hunt get all the meat off of any animal we kill and eat it or give it away, nobody i know just shoot animals for the fun of it and leave the thing laying there.  you asked how a gun defends other than by shooting someone, well thats exactly how it is supposed to defend.  if someone breaks into my house or tries to rob me on the street and i shoot them then my gun did exactly what i bought it for.  i'm glad there are people like you in this world though because you become the target not me.
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Jack

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #89 on: December 31, 2008, 05:21:11 PM »
Quote from: ragnarr on December 29, 2008, 09:06:26 PM
As for the ammunition you mentioned, .50 cal ammunition is still widely used for big game or large predators.  It would be pretty hard to take down a large bear with anything less than a .44 mag. As for hollow point, these bullets cause terrible damage when they go into the body(suck against armor), however one advantage to them is they do not go through the victim, there may be less of a chance for collateral damage.
What would you do if a nervous criminal points a Desert Eagle, loaded with .50 Action Express, at you? Against most unarmored targets, the damage done by the .50 cal ammunition is just terrible. Also, I still believe hollow points are too dangerous to be sold to civilians.
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