Looking for an intelligent argument. (Terminal Velocity)

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Looking for an intelligent argument. (Terminal Velocity)
« on: August 15, 2008, 09:42:39 AM »
I believe that every person should believe whatever they want to believe. However, that being said, I'm always up for a good argument, and having read through quite a few of your forums, and reading the debate from both sides, I find your entire argument lacking.

The very first thing I noticed in reading your forums was the excessive use of the phrase "I don't have to prove anything, you have to prove it to me." This statement is entirely false. You are trying to defend your belief's, which makes this a debate, and the inability, or lack of desire, to provide evidence to your cause only lends strength to the argument of your opponent.

The largest contribution to your argument consists, overwhelmingly, of the "conspiracy" theory. Which, if I have read it properly, indicates that you believe that the government's of every country, and all the organization's that have anything to do with traversing the Earth, are trying to mislead the public into believing the Earth is round when it is indeed flat. The organization's in question include, but are not limited to, the airline industry, the shipping industry, any naval vessel, map makers, and the space industry. This is representative of a very large number of people. You would think that in the entire time this conspiracy has supposedly been in effect that some few of these people would come forward and admit to it, after their careers were over. Or perhaps that a disgruntled employee would come forward with the "facts". Even alien visits to our planet have had their share of government officials coming forward to lend evidence to the cause. I find it strange that flat Earth has not.

Several of your posts indicate the belief that the rest of the universe is how it is portrayed in science, but that the Earth itself is different. This is quite impossible since the Earth, as an entity in this universe, is constrained by the laws of the universe. The laws which you so pointedly go to in your theory of gravitation using the statement "Gravity cannot move faster than light." Showing not only your lack of understanding in the theory of gravity, but your dependence on the laws you so vehemently deny exist.

As far as personal experiences go, if you have ever sat in the window seat of an airplane, and looked out on a clear sky, at cruising altitudes, you can distinctly see the slow, smooth curvature of the Earth. If you have ever spent any time at sea you would recognize the way land masses such as mountains seem to rise up out of the ocean as you move toward them. Very indicative of a round Earth. I've traveled around the world, and seen first hand from a ship the distance between Australia and San Diego. Distances your own maps say are impossible.

The Global climate itself indicates a round planet. How would we have seasons of summer and winter if the Earth didn't tilt one hemisphere closer or farther from the sun. How do the arctic and antarctic maintain temperatures of such rigid cold, while the tropics are warm, when, according to your theory, the sun is farthest away from the Tropics, and closest to the arctic. And finally, how does a compass always point north when there is indeed infinite norths. Navigation and weather would be useless on a flat Earth.

I look forward to hearing intelligent responses, please, if you are going to just give me small trivial answers, follow the rules of your own forums and keep silent.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 11:39:29 AM by e.Jack »

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2008, 09:48:58 AM »
The very first thing I noticed in reading your forums was the excessive use of the phrase "I don't have to prove anything, you have to prove it to me." This statement is entirely false. You are trying to defend your belief's, which makes this a debate, and the inability, or lack of desire, to provide evidence to your cause only lends strength to the argument of your opponent.

You came to us. The burden on proof is on you.

Quote
The largest contribution to your argument consists, overwhelmingly, of the "conspiracy" theory. Which, if I have read it properly, indicates that you believe that the government's of every country, and all the organization's that have anything to do with traversing the Earth, are trying to mislead the public into believing the Earth is round when it is indeed flat. The organization's in question include, but are not limited to, the airline industry, the shipping industry, any naval vessel, map makers, and the space industry. This is representative of a very large number of people. You would think that in the entire time this conspiracy has supposedly been in effect that some few of these people would come forward and admit to it, after their careers were over. Or perhaps that a disgruntled employee would come forward with the "facts". Even alien visits to our planet have had their share of government officials coming forward to lend evidence to the cause.

If we had evidence for the conspiracy, it wouldnt be much of a conspiracy, would it? And no one is saying that the "shipping industry" is in on it.

Quote
Several of your posts indicate the belief that the rest of the universe is how it is portrayed in science, but that the Earth itself is different. This is quite impossible since the Earth, as an entity in this universe, is constrained by the laws of the universe. The laws which you so pointedly go to in your theory of gravitation using the statement "Gravity cannot move faster than light." Showing not only your lack of understanding in the theory of gravity, but your dependence on the laws you so vehemently deny exist.

Gravity doesnt exist. Really.

Quote
As far as personal experiences go, if you have ever sat in the window seat of an airplane, and looked out on a clear sky, at cruising altitudes, you can distinctly see the slow, smooth curvature of the Earth.

You cannot see curvature from the height at which a commercial jet flies. Maybe you think you can see it, but its not there.

Quote
I've traveled around the world, and seen first hand from a ship the distance between Australia and San Diego. Distances your own maps say are impossible.

Did you measure the distance yourself?

Quote
The Global climate itself indicates a round planet. How would we have seasons of summer and winter if the Earth didn't tilt one hemisphere closer or farther from the sun. How do the arctic and antarctic maintain temperatures of such rigid cold, while the tropics are warm, when, according to your theory, the sun is farthest away from the Tropics, and closest to the arctic. And finally, how does a compass always point north when there is indeed infinite norths. Navigation and weather would be useless on a flat Earth.

Read the FAQ.



Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2008, 10:56:06 AM »
The name of the forum is debate and discussion, which means the burden of truth is on both parties. We're having a debate, regardless of who the initiator is.

There are plenty of Conspiracy theories with proof. Having evidence in no way disproves a conspiracy, it actually makes it more plausible, and the shipping industry would have to be in on it. Travel time and distances on a flat Earth would be extremely different than they are on a round Earth, so shipping times would have to be accounted for.

This is one of those short answers I was talking about. I've seen and read the proofs of gravity. I understand how it would work and why. Your theory of the upward moving Earth has a major hole in it. Einstein's theory of special relativity uses the speed of light as a constant, so if the Earth accelerated to the speed of light from any point of view it would be breaking the rule.

In the theory of Flat Earth you couldn't see curvature from any height, though since we can't show pictures we'll throw this out, instead argue the rising land mass.

I did not, in fact, measure the distance, though I did measure the speed, and the travel time, and can come to some pretty good guesses about distance from that.

And I just read the FAQ, and I have a couple questions about that.

1. How does the sun change it's point of direction and rotation size exactly proportional to the flat Earth?

2. How do you account for the fact that the length of a day at the summer equinox and the length of a day at winter equinox would be very different. (I'm not talking about length of daylight, I'm talking about actual length of time it takes the sun to go all the way around 24 hours normally)

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TheEngineer

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2008, 11:01:10 AM »
The laws which you so pointedly go to in your theory of gravitation using the statement "Gravity cannot move faster than light." Showing not only your lack of understanding in the theory of gravity, but your dependence on the laws you so vehemently deny exist.
Are you claiming that gravitation propagates at superluminal speeds?


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2008, 11:11:13 AM »
Nope, I didn't make any references to Gravitation "propagates" anything. I said that you were miscontstrued in your statement that gravity (as it is in theory) does anything at the speed of light. The theory says that the mass of an object bends the space around it causing smaller objects in that space to be drawn toward it.There would be nothing moving at the speed of light, since the force acting upon the smaller bodies would be the space around them, meaning there was no distance, therefore speed is not an issue.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2008, 11:16:29 AM »
Propagation speed is an issue.  Information transfer at FTL speeds is prohibited.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2008, 11:32:36 AM »
The transfer of force is not moving at any speed. The force is transferred by by contact, which is zero distance, Distance / speed = time. Zero divided by anything is equal to zero, so the speed is irrelevant. The larger mass transfers the force to space by touch, space transfers the force to the smaller mass by touch. There is zero distance travelled in the transfer of force.

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Dr Matrix

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2008, 11:41:33 AM »
A distortion in space-time propagates at the speed of light - there are experiments (I believe involving the moons of Jupiter) which have demonstrated this. Nothing can carry information faster than c, and the location of massive bodies as defined by their gravitational interactions is information just like any other, therefore the 'speed of gravitation' is the space-time constant, c, which also happens to be the speed of light in vacuum.

If you try to argue for instantaneous action at a distance you will be torn to pieces in short order on these forums...

EDIT: I may have misinterpreted this thread - sorry, I was in a hurry...  :-\
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2008, 11:48:26 AM »
LOL I can't tell which side you're arguing for Matrix.....Good argument whichever side it's for  ;D

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Dr Matrix

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2008, 11:51:46 AM »
I tip my second hat to you, sir.
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2008, 11:54:59 AM »
The transfer of force is not moving at any speed.
I know, there is no force.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2008, 11:58:59 AM »
The very first thing I noticed in reading your forums was the excessive use of the phrase "I don't have to prove anything, you have to prove it to me." This statement is entirely false. You are trying to defend your belief's, which makes this a debate, and the inability, or lack of desire, to provide evidence to your cause only lends strength to the argument of your opponent.

You came to us. The burden on proof is on you.

Quote
The largest contribution to your argument consists, overwhelmingly, of the "conspiracy" theory. Which, if I have read it properly, indicates that you believe that the government's of every country, and all the organization's that have anything to do with traversing the Earth, are trying to mislead the public into believing the Earth is round when it is indeed flat. The organization's in question include, but are not limited to, the airline industry, the shipping industry, any naval vessel, map makers, and the space industry. This is representative of a very large number of people. You would think that in the entire time this conspiracy has supposedly been in effect that some few of these people would come forward and admit to it, after their careers were over. Or perhaps that a disgruntled employee would come forward with the "facts". Even alien visits to our planet have had their share of government officials coming forward to lend evidence to the cause.

If we had evidence for the conspiracy, it wouldnt be much of a conspiracy, would it? And no one is saying that the "shipping industry" is in on it.

Quote
Several of your posts indicate the belief that the rest of the universe is how it is portrayed in science, but that the Earth itself is different. This is quite impossible since the Earth, as an entity in this universe, is constrained by the laws of the universe. The laws which you so pointedly go to in your theory of gravitation using the statement "Gravity cannot move faster than light." Showing not only your lack of understanding in the theory of gravity, but your dependence on the laws you so vehemently deny exist.

Gravity doesnt exist. Really.

Quote
As far as personal experiences go, if you have ever sat in the window seat of an airplane, and looked out on a clear sky, at cruising altitudes, you can distinctly see the slow, smooth curvature of the Earth.

You cannot see curvature from the height at which a commercial jet flies. Maybe you think you can see it, but its not there.

Quote
I've traveled around the world, and seen first hand from a ship the distance between Australia and San Diego. Distances your own maps say are impossible.

Did you measure the distance yourself?

Quote
The Global climate itself indicates a round planet. How would we have seasons of summer and winter if the Earth didn't tilt one hemisphere closer or farther from the sun. How do the arctic and antarctic maintain temperatures of such rigid cold, while the tropics are warm, when, according to your theory, the sun is farthest away from the Tropics, and closest to the arctic. And finally, how does a compass always point north when there is indeed infinite norths. Navigation and weather would be useless on a flat Earth.

Read the FAQ.




-The burdon of proof is upon you, round earth is the accepted theory(which means it's fully proved). So you have to disprove it(that's how it owrks in the scientific community)
-/
-Same as the first one (gravity)
-If you can't see the curvate, you are either willingfull ignorant or you're blind/wear glasses or you haven't been in a plane yet.
http://static.flickr.com/59/177373136_b989aaab0b.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/63/190152302_23a08265ba.jpg?v=0
-The FAQ doesn't fully explain it

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2008, 12:01:39 PM »
Nothing can carry information faster than c

Uhm, I'm sorry to correct you seeing you are an RE'er and all, but information can actually travel faster than light. Admitted, this is completely new stuff.

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2008, 12:05:32 PM »
Thank you Matrix

TheEngineer - I'm sorry, but I don't see how that is a response to my argument about force. I ceded no points, rather came back with a logical explanation, and you respond with "There is no Force". While this type of argument may work rather well inside your own mind, it does not stand up theoretically. So unless you can come up with something startlingly better, I will consider the point ceded and we can move on to any other points you wish to discuss, logically.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2008, 12:08:37 PM »
Uhm, I'm sorry to correct you seeing you are an RE'er and all, but information can actually travel faster than light.
Useful information can not.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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TheEngineer

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2008, 12:10:39 PM »
TheEngineer - I'm sorry, but I don't see how that is a response to my argument about force. I ceded no points, rather came back with a logical explanation, and you respond with "There is no Force".
There is no force between objects due to gravitation.  The force you think is there is due to you believing you are at rest when you are in contact with the Earth, directly or otherwise, when you are actually accelerating.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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Trekky0623

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2008, 12:14:42 PM »
Acceleration and gravitation are indistinguishable from each other.

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2008, 12:19:18 PM »
Uhm, I'm sorry to correct you seeing you are an RE'er and all, but information can actually travel faster than light.
Useful information can not.

Uhm, yes. http://www.physorg.com/news137937526.html.

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TheEngineer

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"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2008, 12:25:25 PM »
Personally I don't believe I'm at rest, I believe that the entire Earth is moving through space, accelerating and deccelerating. And The force I'm talking about is between the objects and space, not the objects and each other.

I'm not saying Gravity is like a magnet, where the two objects are attracted to one another and move closer, I'm saying that the larger object bends space, and the smaller object hits this bend in space and is automatically drawn toward the center, which is the larger object. I saw a wonderful post about an experiment with a tennisball, a basketball, and a sheet you can do yourself.Think of the sheet as space, the basketball as the sun and the tennisball as the earth, stretch the sheet out tight, put the basketball in the center, then put the tennisball on the edge, the tennisball is pulled towards the basketball, regardless of any attraction.

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2008, 12:27:02 PM »
I can link to wikipedia articles too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2008, 12:29:17 PM »
Personally I don't believe I'm at rest, I believe that the entire Earth is moving through space, accelerating and deccelerating.
That is not the acceleration I am talking about. 

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And The force I'm talking about is between the objects and space, not the objects and each other.
What force is that?



"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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TheEngineer

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2008, 12:30:34 PM »
I can link to wikipedia articles too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement.
That's a neat trick.  But can you read them?


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2008, 12:35:27 PM »
LMAO what started as a discussion on flat Earth and Round Earth has developed nicely into a study on quantum physics, who wants to discuss String Theory......

But as I was originally saying

TheEngineer - I know what acceleration you were talking about, which is impossible, due to Einstein's theory of relativity. I read the "proof" that it was possible under relativity, but as I said, in relativity the speed of light is a constant no matter what plane you are observing from so accelerating past the speed of light in any plane is impossible.

And the force is mass. Sheer Weight affects the space around it. Like you affect a trampoline when you get on it. Same concept on a much larger scale.

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2008, 12:40:17 PM »
I can link to wikipedia articles too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement.
That's a neat trick.  But can you read them?

Hehe.

Granted, this is new stuff so I would not bet my life on it.

Although it seems to me that two scientists could agree on beforehand fx that one touch himself if anything happens to the other's particle. They each take a particle and walk a given distance apart. One alters A and the other observes B is altered. Thus scientist B knows A is touching himself. That could be useful.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2008, 12:40:50 PM »
TheEngineer - I know what acceleration you were talking about, which is impossible, due to Einstein's theory of relativity.
Uh, General Relativity relies on this acceleration.   ???

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I read the "proof" that it was possible under relativity, but as I said, in relativity the speed of light is a constant no matter what plane you are observing from so accelerating past the speed of light in any plane is impossible.
Right.  That is why it would take an infinite amount of time for an object to accelerate to the speed of light.

Quote
And the force is mass.
What about things without mass, then?


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2008, 12:52:46 PM »
I understand how the closer you accelerate to the speed of light the slower time is supposed to appear to you, but I don't see how it relies on acceleration, it doesn't say that everything is accelerating. But the speed of light is constant, so if we were constantly accelerating, we would eventually hit the speed of light, from another plane relative to our own, regardless of time relative to us. Which is impossible. And all matter has mass, theory says all matter has gravity, I don't see a problem here.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2008, 12:56:25 PM »
I understand how the closer you accelerate to the speed of light the slower time is supposed to appear to you,
No, you would experience proper time, and thus you would not notice any slowing of time.

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but I don't see how it relies on acceleration, it doesn't say that everything is accelerating.
I assume you are talking about GR.  GR states that us on the surface of the earth are experiencing a continual upwards acceleration.

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But the speed of light is constant, so if we were constantly accelerating, we would eventually hit the speed of light, from another plane relative to our own
No, that plane would see our acceleration slow, taking an infinite amount of time to reach the speed of light.

Quote
And all matter has mass, theory says all matter has gravity, I don't see a problem here.
What about things without matter?


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2008, 01:11:40 PM »
Oops...lol you're right, your time wouldn't change....

I've never heard of GR stating anything about constant upward acceleration, only perpetual freefall

And I cede the point on infinite acceleration.

But the special relativity also depends on gravity, which way back at the beginning of this argument was the point, that it exists, and special relativity takes energy and momentum densities into account (energy has no mass) in it's calculation of gravity.

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2008, 01:23:18 PM »
FE'ers claim that the conspiracy theory is for NASA's benefit....

What about before there was NASA????

The realization that the Earth was round was long before there was any thought of NASA?