Designer always greater than the creation?

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Althalus

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #90 on: May 17, 2008, 04:28:25 PM »
Evolution needs to overcome entrophy to take place. It needs to consume energy to become more complex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_and_life

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narcberry

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #91 on: May 17, 2008, 05:07:27 PM »
Appreciated, but offtopic.
We are interested in examples here, as none have been provided that meet the criteria.

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Althalus

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #92 on: May 17, 2008, 05:41:58 PM »
The universe.

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narcberry

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #93 on: May 17, 2008, 05:44:18 PM »
A < A < A ?
I'm confused.

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Althalus

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #94 on: May 17, 2008, 06:01:22 PM »
No, you are a troll.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #95 on: May 17, 2008, 06:14:10 PM »
If there is no designer, if the universe just is, then your inequalities mean nothing.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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narcberry

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #96 on: May 17, 2008, 06:25:25 PM »
Still no examples...

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #97 on: May 17, 2008, 06:32:03 PM »
Examples of what?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Benocrates

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #98 on: May 17, 2008, 08:58:01 PM »
No, you are a troll.

QFT. Stop feeding narc, he is evil incarnate.
Quote from: President Barack Obama
Pot had helped
Get the fuck over it.

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EvilToothpaste

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #99 on: May 18, 2008, 02:29:15 AM »
He's not a troll, he's just trying to make heathens see the Light.   :o

The process of education in humans, as I said long ago, is an example of A > B > C.  Have we not, as a species, learned and understood more and more from one generation to the next?  One could simply look at the historical base of any field of study and see that our knowledge is increasing and we are teaching the next generation to further increase their knowledge, or to be greater. 

Gauss > Pythagoras > Euclid

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #100 on: May 18, 2008, 02:37:53 AM »

Then why do people believe in evolution?

What does evolution have to do with it?

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Raist

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #101 on: May 18, 2008, 01:43:44 PM »
Evolution needs to overcome entrophy to take place. It needs to consume energy to become more complex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_and_life
omg too bad we don't have a giant ball of hydrogen so massive it creates fusion and warms the planet, giving us energy..... oh never mind. we do.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2008, 02:59:35 PM by Saint Raist »

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #102 on: May 18, 2008, 02:51:20 PM »

Then why do people believe in evolution?

What does evolution have to do with it?

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Althalus

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #103 on: May 18, 2008, 06:04:08 PM »
Evolution needs to overcome entrophy to take place. It needs to consume energy to become more complex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_and_life
omg too bad we don't have a giant ball of hydrogen so massive it creates fusion and warms the planet, giving us energy..... oh never mind. we do.
Way to completly miss the point of my statement.

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Shredderbeam

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #104 on: May 19, 2008, 12:34:25 AM »
Quote from: Kasroa Is Gone
And to answer the question. No creation can ever be more complex than the designer no matter what your definition of creation is. It's so blatantly obvious, a five-year-old could probably answer this thread.

What if you created an algorithm that could give rise to a form of AI?

Quote from: Athalus
Evolution needs to overcome entrophy to take place. It needs to consume energy to become more complex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_and_life

The general tendency of the universe is towards entropy, yes.  However, you can have isolated pockets of growing order (such as within Earth's biosphere) with a larger trend towards disorder.

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #105 on: May 19, 2008, 05:15:00 AM »
Quote from: Kasroa Is Gone
And to answer the question. No creation can ever be more complex than the designer no matter what your definition of creation is. It's so blatantly obvious, a five-year-old could probably answer this thread.

What if you created an algorithm that could give rise to a form of AI?

I don't believe that to be possible. In fact to me it's a ridiculous notion. But time will tell.

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #106 on: May 19, 2008, 05:16:42 AM »
I also still don't see what evolution has to do with any of this. Evolution is a process of refinement via random mutation it is not an example of creator and creation.

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Taters343

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #107 on: May 19, 2008, 06:14:35 AM »
The "creator" would be random chance. So I'd say the creation is a bit better.

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[][][]

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #108 on: May 19, 2008, 06:22:51 AM »
The "creator" would be random chance. So I'd say the creation is a bit better.

If you speak of a creation on the genetic level (a mutation), than you could say whatever the cause of a mutation should be (often radiation) could be the creator. But evolution is based on the principle of natural selection, that individuals with favorable genetic traits will tend survive, so in that sense you can say nature creates new species. By nature, of course, I mean one or more specific agent(s) of selection, which could be anything from a predatory species to an entire eviornment or ecosystem.
The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us. -Some Frenchy

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #109 on: May 19, 2008, 08:45:57 AM »
So how would one determing the complexity or greatness of things such as "random chance" or "nature"?

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[][][]

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #110 on: May 19, 2008, 10:08:57 AM »
So how would one determing the complexity or greatness of things such as "random chance" or "nature"?

Well lets see, lets generalize that the agent of selection happens to be the ecosystem, which the species is invariable a part of, I think you can confidently say it is more complex than that species which is only a part of the ecosystem.
The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us. -Some Frenchy

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #111 on: May 19, 2008, 10:16:48 AM »
I don't think the two can be compared in that way, that's just my feeling on it and why I think that an abstract concept such as random chance or nature cannot be given a quality such as complexity or greatness in this context.

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Taters343

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #112 on: May 19, 2008, 12:47:11 PM »
The "creator" would be random chance. So I'd say the creation is a bit better.

If you speak of a creation on the genetic level (a mutation), than you could say whatever the cause of a mutation should be (often radiation) could be the creator. But evolution is based on the principle of natural selection, that individuals with favorable genetic traits will tend survive, so in that sense you can say nature creates new species. By nature, of course, I mean one or more specific agent(s) of selection, which could be anything from a predatory species to an entire eviornment or ecosystem.

Radiation caused genetic mutations billions of years ago? Weird.

Mutations are random switches or duplications or deletions of nucleotides in a DNA sequence. These mutations cause mistakes in the amino acid chains that the DNA sequence codes for proteins, which causes the synthesis of different proteins. The proteins give an organism its characteristics, if a protein is changed and the change it causes is desirable, that organism will survive to reproduce. It goes on from there, don't feel like explaining anymore.

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #113 on: May 19, 2008, 01:01:43 PM »
Another point is how you define greatness. I know the OP lays it down as greater is more complex but the most successful organisms on this planet are also some of the most basic. Are they not great for being the most successful? Is the whole point of life not to reproduce? That may be a debate on its own but even if it's not the whole point it's certainly one the more important targets for any living thing.

Things such as bacterium do it very well, much better than complex organisms. In fact they do almost everything that other animals do except they do it more efficiently. So evolution is not neccessarily making things better only better for a particular environment.

I still don't see evolution incorporating any kind of creator or creation either. Random events triggering diversity based on environment is what I see.

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Taters343

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #114 on: May 19, 2008, 01:05:19 PM »
I still don't see evolution incorporating any kind of creator or creation either. Random events triggering diversity based on environment is what I see.

Thats what I was trying to say, I'm just not very good at expressing my thoughts.

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #115 on: May 19, 2008, 01:10:57 PM »
You don't have to when you look me in the eyes that way.

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Taters343

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #116 on: May 19, 2008, 01:11:30 PM »
Ok then.

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[][][]

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #117 on: May 19, 2008, 02:08:09 PM »
The "creator" would be random chance. So I'd say the creation is a bit better.

If you speak of a creation on the genetic level (a mutation), than you could say whatever the cause of a mutation should be (often radiation) could be the creator. But evolution is based on the principle of natural selection, that individuals with favorable genetic traits will tend survive, so in that sense you can say nature creates new species. By nature, of course, I mean one or more specific agent(s) of selection, which could be anything from a predatory species to an entire eviornment or ecosystem.

Radiation caused genetic mutations billions of years ago? Weird.

Mutations are random switches or duplications or deletions of nucleotides in a DNA sequence. These mutations cause mistakes in the amino acid chains that the DNA sequence codes for proteins, which causes the synthesis of different proteins. The proteins give an organism its characteristics, if a protein is changed and the change it causes is desirable, that organism will survive to reproduce. It goes on from there, don't feel like explaining anymore.

Absolutely, for instance, strong radiation such as UV or simmilar can cause a thiamine-thiamine dimer to form (between two adjacent thiamine base pairs), making a section of genetic code unreadable, or a DNA Polymerase may excise that section of code from the genome. Radiation causes a multitude of different DNA damages. Addition of DNA could be cause by things other than rad though, for instance a lysogenic virus can be the vector of mutation, or coud be a mistake in the transcription process (usually a missense mutation, rarely nonsense), then come large scale chromosomal abberations such as fusions or deletions of whole parts.

Certain chemicals cause rearrangement in genetic codes, even high temperature can damage DNA. But radiation does happen to be a leading cause of DNA damage (UV). In fact, the body has polymerases that regularly repair or replace code damaged by radiation. Some people who cannot be in the presense of UV light lack a functioning version of this enzyme.
I am a biochem student so I should know a little about some of this stuff...

Edit: IN case anyone is interested, the name of this condition is xeroderma pigmentosum, and these people are very succeptable to skin cancer if they don't wear protective clothing outside (Because of their lack of the functioning excision/repair enzyme).
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 07:45:54 PM by [][][] »
The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us. -Some Frenchy

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narcberry

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #118 on: May 20, 2008, 09:06:38 PM »
The process of education in humans, as I said long ago, is an example of A > B > C.  Have we not, as a species, learned and understood more and more from one generation to the next?  One could simply look at the historical base of any field of study and see that our knowledge is increasing and we are teaching the next generation to further increase their knowledge, or to be greater. 

Gauss > Pythagoras > Euclid

I like it, good work. We have one example of A < B < C, education.

Those of you talking about evolution are offtopic.
More examples please.

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #119 on: May 20, 2008, 11:44:17 PM »
There are no examples it is impossible

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