Google Earth

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Google Earth
« Reply #90 on: June 24, 2007, 03:45:08 PM »
Once again.

The shape of the horizon is immaterial.  The horizon is nothing more than the furthest one can see in any direction.  It will appear around the observer in the shape of a circle.  Therefore it will be curved.  As long as a horizon exists, it has to be curved.  This is basic logic and geometry here.
non sequitur. Roundy, you're not making any sense, pal.

Why is it a non sequitur?  The FE has a reason for why we see a horizon.  Why should it necessarily not be curved?  You can see a curve in the horizon from a bridge.  It defines the boundary around us, making it a circle, making it curved.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Ferruccio

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Re: Google Earth
« Reply #91 on: June 24, 2007, 03:49:24 PM »
I know this is not a photo, just 3d stuff, but I'm just using it to show what I think a visible horizon would be as opposed to a true horizon.

http://www.nvnews.net/articles/3dimagery/falcon.jpg

the ground fades away gradually instead of an instant break to the sky

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Gulliver

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Re: Google Earth
« Reply #92 on: June 24, 2007, 03:55:47 PM »
Once again.

The shape of the horizon is immaterial.  The horizon is nothing more than the furthest one can see in any direction.  It will appear around the observer in the shape of a circle.  Therefore it will be curved.  As long as a horizon exists, it has to be curved.  This is basic logic and geometry here.
non sequitur. Roundy, you're not making any sense, pal.

Why is it a non sequitur?  The FE has a reason for why we see a horizon.  Why should it necessarily not be curved?  You can see a curve in the horizon from a bridge.  It defines the boundary around us, making it a circle, making it curved.
Roundy, you really need to work on stepping through your logic one step at a time. Let me show you how.

The standard Cartesian coordinate system in three dimensions uses three axes, x, y, and z. The main vertex of the system is x=0, y=0, z=0, or more shortly (0,0,0). Let's have you as the observer at (0,0,0) facing the x-axis's positive vector. The x-y plane lies tangent with the Earth. Assuming a viewing distance of 6 miles, the horizon would be the circle described by the equations: {x2+y2=36 miles2, z=0}. As you look from (0,0,0) you can only see a straight line. You're not high enough to make out the curvature. Even if you could, the horizon would curve towards you in the x-y plane. There is no way on a flat Earth to see the horizon with z < 0, that would be underground. RE predicts the z<0 curvature that we see. FE does not. RE is more predictive than FE. This builds our confidence in RE.

Your basic mistake is saying that a circle in the x-y plane results in a curvature with z<0.

I hope that helps.

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RENTAKOW

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Re: Google Earth
« Reply #93 on: June 24, 2007, 04:13:58 PM »
He means that if you were above ground, the furthest distance you could see would be a circle. You could see the same maximum distance equally all around you. Imagine you are standing in the center of a large hula hoop. The hula hoop represents how far you can see in any direction and you are looking downwards on its border.

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Gulliver

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Re: Google Earth
« Reply #94 on: June 24, 2007, 04:17:10 PM »
He means that if you were above ground, the furthest distance you could see would be a circle. You could see the same maximum distance equally all around you. Imagine you are standing in the center of a large hula hoop. The hula hoop represents how far you can see in any direction and you are looking downwards on its border.
The circle would curve back towards you, not down.

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RENTAKOW

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Re: Google Earth
« Reply #95 on: June 24, 2007, 04:26:30 PM »
You wouldn't be able to tell the difference if it was 10+ miles away.

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Gulliver

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Re: Google Earth
« Reply #96 on: June 24, 2007, 04:31:10 PM »
You wouldn't be able to tell the difference if it was 10+ miles away.
Why not?

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divito the truthist

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Re: Google Earth
« Reply #97 on: June 24, 2007, 04:41:03 PM »
The theory becomes suspect, not the community.

Oh, so the FET cannot be suspect then, the whole community has to be? That's a shame. I wish logic worked both ways.

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Ferruccio

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Re: Google Earth
« Reply #98 on: June 24, 2007, 04:48:37 PM »
There would be one way to tell, I think, but it would require some more advanced math, and possibly some programming.

A horizon that curves towards you would be elliptical in shape, while a true horizon due to the curvature of the planet would be circular.  Definitely wouldn't be easy to tell if both horizons were sharp, but it could be an interesting programming experiment.

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RENTAKOW

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Re: Google Earth
« Reply #99 on: June 24, 2007, 04:49:19 PM »
Because it's 10+ miles away! In the FET, the horizon is as far as your eye can distinguish objects through the atmospheric haze and it is the same distance all around you! You are above this imaginary circle so you are looking down on its circular shape! From that perspective it is curved! Jesus Christ!

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Ferruccio

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Re: Google Earth
« Reply #100 on: June 24, 2007, 04:50:52 PM »
I'm going to have to render the same sphere and camera position with fog now. ;)

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Gulliver

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Re: Google Earth
« Reply #101 on: June 24, 2007, 05:00:57 PM »
Because it's 10+ miles away! In the FET, the horizon is as far as your eye can distinguish objects through the atmospheric haze and it is the same distance all around you! You are above this imaginary circle so you are looking down on its circular shape! From that perspective it is curved! Jesus Christ!
Whether is it's curved is not my challenge. I challenge you to show that the observer on a flat Earth would see a downward curve, as opposed to a backward curve. I don't see you (or Roundy's) point.

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RENTAKOW

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Re: Google Earth
« Reply #102 on: June 24, 2007, 05:22:57 PM »
It looks the same if it was curving to you or down from you. I'm not going to lie to you.

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Gulliver

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Re: Google Earth
« Reply #103 on: June 24, 2007, 06:54:54 PM »
It looks the same if it was curving to you or down from you. I'm not going to lie to you.
I'll work some math then. But I'd be amazed that you couldn't tell whether the horizon curved down or back.

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RENTAKOW

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Re: Google Earth
« Reply #104 on: June 24, 2007, 07:03:32 PM »
It's a 2 dimensional curve. A curve is a curve is a curve is a curve is a curve is a curve is a curve is a curve. When was the last time you were able to judge distance for something that is 10+ miles away.

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Ferruccio

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Re: Google Earth
« Reply #105 on: June 24, 2007, 08:43:37 PM »
Elliptical curve or circular curve.  Not sure if you could plot points and prove it to match a certain equation or not.  I dunno.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Google Earth
« Reply #106 on: June 24, 2007, 09:26:33 PM »
Gulliver, I'm sorry you can't envision the shape of the horizon.  :(
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Ferruccio

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Re: Google Earth
« Reply #107 on: June 24, 2007, 09:45:37 PM »
Gulliver, I'm sorry you can't envision the shape of the horizon.  :(

I'm actually trying to figure out since I haven't done any actual rendering yet, whether a foggy horizon as well as a true horizon would appear sharp, as in the rendering and the photo I showed.