1

Flat Earth Debate / Re: Big Bang Fair-tail

« on: August 03, 2017, 10:55:15 AM »

I honestly don't understand a lot of the debate.

I mean, if there was a 'big bang' at the start of the universe as we know it, it doesn't prove or disprove the existence of deity.  It doesn't even disprove the God of the Judeo-Christrian tradition.

Older scientists were often religious, and believed that seeking answers to these kinds of questions was something God would have them do.

It is clear that God didn't share the entirety of scientific knowledge with the Hebrews (or else they'd have televisions and lazers 4000 years ago instead of making fairly rough estimates for Pi).

Do you really think that talking about red shift, conservation of mass, thermodynamics and reversal of gravity would have meant anything to the ancient Hebrews?  Might that be the reason why so many of these scientific findings are missing from the Hebrew bible?

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Flat Earth Debate / Re: I'm completely confused...

« on: August 03, 2017, 10:41:13 AM »

you forgot to sprinkle a little bit of Jesus in there too



Just a dash!

I was mostly talking about the OT.  But you can see the agendas of NT writers quite plainly.  For example, Matthew is writing to show that Jesus fulfills OT prophesies (he quote quite a few of them- one or two are not are part of lost works).

The Red Sea Scrolls are a bit exciting about this as well- we've found fragments of books that date back to before historians thought they were written (I can't remember if it was Luke or Mark that they found).

It also implies a conversion on the part of the Red Sea group.

3

The Lounge / Re: What are the forum's numbers FE/RE?

« on: August 03, 2017, 10:29:48 AM »

I'm not even sure yet if the number of true FE believers around here reach double digits. Most of them are obvioulsy trolling, and don't even do a good job at. 

Wikipedia has Flat Earth Society numbers around 500 worldwide.  Considering the population of the planet, that's extremely small.

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Flat Earth Debate / Re: Redshift in the FE model

« on: August 03, 2017, 10:03:45 AM »

Yes I know that.  In the FE theory, the stars and galaxies are affixed to the firmament.

Are they completely fixed?  Because historical astronomy shows that the constellations are changing.


It doesn't matter though.  Flat Earth isn't treated as a 'theory' because when it predicts something wrong, rather than revise the theory, we instead enter the realm of subversion and containment.

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Flat Earth Debate / Re: I'm completely confused...

« on: August 03, 2017, 09:59:02 AM »

So couple of things...

1. I've been trying to read online and research both globe and flat earth aspects, what I cant seem to find is a consistency of flat earth "facts". For instance half of the flat earth community say, that the moon emits it's own light source, and the other half is saying that it gets it's light source from the sun. So which is it?

2. If the moon is emitting it's own light source, how do lunar phases work?

3. If the sun and moon are only a few thousand miles above us instead of the 93 million and 238,000 miles. How is it no one has ever photographed either one while In a high altitude balloon, or on a plane, etc.?

Obviously, there is a lot of information about the 'round' earth- since scientists have been experimenting and adjusting the theory starting sometime around 2400 years ago.

Flat Earth, as we know it, was a proposition of a guy in the 1800s.  He proposed a deviation from the scientific method that gives prominence to his own observations and apparently his own conjecture.  He used a telescope to see a friend of his farther away than he thought should be possible and conjectured that the earth was flat, and wrote a book including a map.

Since Flat Earthers do not believe in empirical evidence, there isn't a lot of consensus between them.  Most agree on the map the first guy made, but after that, they make wild conjectures about why it doesn't account for a lot of the evidence.  These range from wild conspiracy theories to the nature of reality (which is why these things don't add up).

Flat Earth doesn't qualify as a "theory" in scientific terms, since it doesn't predict what will happen.  When evidence contradicts Flat Earth, it is met with wild conjecture and speculation rather than revision of the core theory.

I find if kind of funny that Flat Earthers need to invent things like Aetheric disturbance that bends light, while completely denying the testable atmospheric refraction that accounts for the majority of 'evidence' in support of Flat Earth.

6

Flat Earth General / Re: My Senses are my Proof of Flat Earth

« on: July 31, 2017, 05:48:40 PM »

Senses are the only source of any evidence what-so-ever. If we don't trust them to some point, we would be left with solipsism.

As far as the astronauts, I suppose I can only speak for my own senses. I feel like most readers will agree though.

I don't have so little trust in humanity that I discredit all of the experiences of every other person, and I can't see a way in which FE works where I can trust most of the experiences that other people have.

However, I lived in Brazil for a few years and got a good look at the night sky.  It was definitely circling around a spot near the Southern Cross (which I loved to look at).

And when I watch the sun set, I often see clouds lit from underneath, or shadows cast upon the mountains, as the sun disappears starting from the bottom.  Also, on clear days, I can see buildings and objects appear over the horizon starting from the top (city smog can often make the mountains completely invisible from my location).

I have seen the Flat Earth model account for a lot of phenomena, but not my own personal experiences and observations.

7

Flat Earth General / Flat Earth World Building

« on: July 31, 2017, 05:35:19 PM »

Ok, so I'm a person who gets really interested in people's beliefs, and this group has my interest.  I don't want this topic to turn into debate, I just want to listen.

My question is, how does the whole thing fit together to create a single whole?

How does Flat Earth Theory account for the following phenomena:


- Sunsets starting with the bottom first
- Why does the horizon line exist, and why is it so near?
- Distances in the Southern Hemisphere and flightpaths
- Stars in the Southern Hemisphere (they revolve around astral South, some constellations are visible year round in places that are on the opposite sides of Flat Earth).
- Why do we not have more people coming forward with evidence (airline pilots,
- What actually lies beyond the Antarctic wall?
- How do we know these things?


Please understand that I'm not interested in debate in this topic, but rather I would like to know how people account for these things themselves.

8

The Lounge / What are the forum's numbers FE/RE?

« on: July 31, 2017, 05:16:47 PM »

I came to this forum thinking that I had found where the Flat Earth Believers are, but recent threads seem to have the Globular view represented far stronger than the Flat Earth view.

In older threads, it seems like the FE proponents are more plentiful, so I am starting to think that there's been a migration away, or a general conversion away from FET.

So I was wondering- how many people currently frequent the forum from each side?  Please be honest.

9

Flat Earth Debate / Re: If i could believe in FE, I couldn't believe everyone is lying

« on: July 31, 2017, 12:01:53 PM »

They could simply be mistaken, as we as a society have been many times in the past. I'm sure 300 years ago we thought we had all the answers to everything about the universe as well. Well, at least the important stuff. Time has shown us, as it will again, to have been wrong.

Well, that's the trouble with FE.  It doesn't work like science- where we come across a few things that contradict Newtonian physics and replace the theoretical model with Relativity and Quantum Mechanics.  Ockham's razor does give us a lot of craziness in the universe, and I'm sure we're not finished discovering it.

But in Flat Earth theory, when you find something that contradicts your model's predictions, you double down on on it and plug your ears.

I mean, the first thing I thought of when I saw the model was "Why does navigating using the Southern Cross work?"  And that's not to mention the way the sun sets down, things disappear across the horizon starting at the bottom, etc.  Not to mention the distances between everything south of the equator being WAY off on every map used for navigation.

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Flat Earth Debate / Re: The Great Conspiracy

« on: July 31, 2017, 11:38:33 AM »

Ok, I have been reading "The Earth is Not a Globe" and I have a major problem with its logic.

It claims that scientists all over the world are so enamored of Sir Isaac Newton that he's essentially become their god- and that they have an irrational desire to never contradict Newton.

That isn't a claim of 'conspiracy' or intentional cover up, as it were, right?  It is like an unintentional cover up of evidence.


This doesn't hold with events since the book came out, though.  Relativity and Quantum Mechanics contradict Newton fundamentally.  So why would they continue to cover up a flat earth when people who come forward against the current theory can be as universally celebrated as Albert Einstein?


So it has to be an intentional cover-up- with collusion all credible scientists from all over the earth.

Who needs to be in on the conspiracy for it to work?  Well, here's a list:

Cartogrophers for a number of centuries
Everyone involved in every Space Program around the world- including both Russia and the US during the Cold War
South Pole Expedition team members
All Governments with a Navy, Airforce or long range missiles, and people who work on any of those things
Anyone who claims to have been to Antarctica and not seen the army/impassible ice walls
Anyone who claims to have traversed the globe north to south
International Airline Pilots
Recreational pilots
Military pilots, navigators, rangers
Sea Ship's captain/pilots and navigators, and probably a number of other sailors (especially in the southern hemisphere)
Engineers and Architects that work on a large enough scale to account for the curvature or wobble of the earth
Astronomers and astrophysicists
Anyone who claims to have navigated using the stars in the southern hemipshere (this goes back a number of centuries)
Possibly anyone who claims to have visited the southern hemisphere and observed the star rotation (that's me).
The army that protects Antarctic Ice Wall, their families, the ships that take them to and from duty and their logistics managers
Telecommunications companies
Google
Land Surveyors



So- several million people are in the employ of the great conspiracy- and I'm sure I haven't listed every job that wouild need to be involved.

11

Flat Earth Debate / The Great Conspiracy

« on: July 28, 2017, 08:49:58 PM »

Those here claiming the earth to be flat often dismiss some evidence to the contrary- often claiming that it was faked.

To me, this implies that some people know the earth is flat, but are part of a great cover up.  Clearly, it must be an international conspiracy.

For this to be true- who would need to be part of the grand cover up?  Where does this international conspiracy start and end?

12

Flat Earth Debate / Re: For Spherical Earth Believers Only

« on: July 28, 2017, 08:48:33 PM »

What would it take for me to believe in a flat earth?

Right now, it would probably take this:

A predictive flat earth model that works better than a spherical earth in all instances.

This would need to be backed up with credible scientific data in repeatable experiments that showed meaningful flaws in the round earth model- such that Ockham's Razor makes a flat earth model the more credible option.


Basically, it would take the sort of craziness that actually happened that prompted Einstein's Theory of Relativity or Boer's Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics (repeatable, non-flawed scientific data contradicted the current theory).  I don't think that we are finished figuring out the true nature of the universe.  But the current scientific data on the subject is overwhelmingly in favor of a round earth, and I have yet to see any peer reviewed information supporting a flat earth.


Also- Flat Earth would have to require a lot less conspiracy in order to work.  I have a hard time believing that pretty much every nation, airline pilot, scientist, explorer and ship's navigator are spending so many resources covering up the truth in order to fool me.