If i could believe in FE, I couldn't believe everyone is lying

Hello,

Suppose NASA is lying,

Is Roscosmos State Corporation lying too?
Is Iranian Space Agency lying too?
Is China National Space Administration lying too?
Is Indian Space Research Organisation  lying too?
Is Canadian Space Agency lying too?
Is Brazilian Space Agency lying too?

Are all countries lying too and Cooperate with NASA for this lying?

This is irrational and crazy idea!

Lies...

All lies!

Also, telecommunications, military, maritime shipping, airlines, private space agencies, Google, and jroa.

Iranian government is a serious enemy of US government. If Iranian Space Agency has been found earth is flat they exposed NASA & US government very fast without any delay. But they sent Omid satellite to space and didn't see a flat earth from there.

We will never see any FE believers at this thread because everyone's lying is an indefensible theory.

All flat earth's believers are irrational and funny.

Shalom and welcome to the trenches.

They could simply be mistaken, as we as a society have been many times in the past. I'm sure 300 years ago we thought we had all the answers to everything about the universe as well. Well, at least the important stuff. Time has shown us, as it will again, to have been wrong.

Hello,

Suppose NASA is lying,

Is Roscosmos State Corporation lying too?
Is Iranian Space Agency lying too?
Is China National Space Administration lying too?
Is Indian Space Research Organisation  lying too?
Is Canadian Space Agency lying too?
Is Brazilian Space Agency lying too?

Are all countries lying too and Cooperate with NASA for this lying?

This is irrational and crazy idea!

Aside from the fact that all evidence indicates a round earth this is my biggest complaint with flat earth models.  They necessitate a massive conspiracy. 
I believe it was JRowe who told such a conspiracy need only involve maybe a hundred people tops, everyone else is simply mistaken, but not lying.
I pointed out that 500 people have been to space so far, so, not simply 100.  Plus the thousands of people who support those trips, and that's just in the space business.

Plus the thousands of people who support those trips, and that's just in the space business.

Why would the people that support those trips need to be in on it? I mean sure most conspiracies will include a whole host of people, but you don't have to overextend it. Benefactors, scientists, likely even most of ground control, can all be just as fooled as anyone else.

So not 1 of the few hundred people that have been in to space have said 'screw it, I'm going to sell this story for Bucks'.

If it's a huge conspiracy at least you can say they will have been threatened in order to keep them silent, if it's just the heads of space agencies involved then what's to fear?

Again, I have a harder time accepting 'Conspiracy Light' than the full fat version...

So not 1 of the few hundred people that have been in to space have said 'screw it, I'm going to sell this story for Bucks'.

There are a whole host of people who claim to be former NASA employees that disavow space travel. Take your pick of explanations; they're real, they're liars in it for money, they're disinfo... Whatever the case, it doesn't particularly matter if someone comes forward because who'd believe them? You'd need a big name for them to have any credibilty and typically if they're a big name they're getting more from maintaining the conspiracy.

I'm talking about people that have been to space coming out.

or are you saying no-one knows the earth is flat, they are just lying about having been to space?

I'm talking about people that have been to space coming out.

or are you saying no-one knows the earth is flat, they are just lying about having been to space?

Again, depends which conspiracy model you're interested in.
And regardless, are you saying that if you heard some guy called Richard Arnold said space travel was faked, would you believe him? I can tell you what I'd think: someone got annoyed their fifteen minutes of fame was over and decided to make it into the headlines.

Quote from: Badxtoss on July 30, 2017, 12:38:31 PM

Plus the thousands of people who support those trips, and that's just in the space business.

Why would the people that support those trips need to be in on it? I mean sure most conspiracies will include a whole host of people, but you don't have to overextend it. Benefactors, scientists, likely even most of ground control, can all be just as fooled as anyone else.

Some, sure, but the people examine the data, who figure the routes, who do a thousand other things are going to know.

i feel I am debating more because I don't understand your position than I am about the actual topic.

Maybe it shows a lack of debating skills on my part, but I think this is an instance when 'agree to disagree' is the best course to take.

Quote from: Jane on July 30, 2017, 01:11:55 PM

Quote from: Badxtoss on July 30, 2017, 12:38:31 PM

Plus the thousands of people who support those trips, and that's just in the space business.

Why would the people that support those trips need to be in on it? I mean sure most conspiracies will include a whole host of people, but you don't have to overextend it. Benefactors, scientists, likely even most of ground control, can all be just as fooled as anyone else.

Some, sure, but the people examine the data, who figure the routes, who do a thousand other things are going to know.

Why? If they figure out the routes, they could be entirely serious, it doesn't mean it'll be used for real. Who examines the data doesn't mean much if the people that provided the data are competent, and even if there's a flaw they'll have to tell their superior, and any decent conspiracy would make the most of a few conspirators and have them run departments like that, or failing that I expect their first reaction would be "Huh, there's a tiny glitch in this incredibly intricate and complicated device that got blasted at ungodly speeds and raised to incredibly temperatures before whirling through an empty void for days/weeks/months without any maintenence."

i feel I am debating more because I don't understand your position than I am about the actual topic.

Maybe it shows a lack of debating skills on my part, but I think this is an instance when 'agree to disagree' is the best course to take.

I'm a REer, I don't have a position on this, I just don't like bad arguments.

Allot of effort to punish someone for putting forwards a bad argument, but fair enough.

At least I get where you're coming from now.

Allot of effort to punish someone for putting forwards a bad argument, but fair enough.

At least I get where you're coming from now.

It shouldn't be punishment to point out a gap in logic. And not really a lot of effort, it's a forum, posting is what it's for.

Well unfortunately humans are not particularly logical, we can only try.

As I said, I couldn't understand your position, now I do.

Quote from: Badxtoss on July 30, 2017, 02:08:28 PM

Quote from: Jane on July 30, 2017, 01:11:55 PM

Quote from: Badxtoss on July 30, 2017, 12:38:31 PM

Plus the thousands of people who support those trips, and that's just in the space business.

Why would the people that support those trips need to be in on it? I mean sure most conspiracies will include a whole host of people, but you don't have to overextend it. Benefactors, scientists, likely even most of ground control, can all be just as fooled as anyone else.

Some, sure, but the people examine the data, who figure the routes, who do a thousand other things are going to know.

Why? If they figure out the routes, they could be entirely serious, it doesn't mean it'll be used for real. Who examines the data doesn't mean much if the people that provided the data are competent, and even if there's a flaw they'll have to tell their superior, and any decent conspiracy would make the most of a few conspirators and have them run departments like that, or failing that I expect their first reaction would be "Huh, there's a tiny glitch in this incredibly intricate and complicated device that got blasted at ungodly speeds and raised to incredibly temperatures before whirling through an empty void for days/weeks/months without any maintenence."

Quote from: Edge_Loop on July 30, 2017, 02:15:47 PM

i feel I am debating more because I don't understand your position than I am about the actual topic.

Maybe it shows a lack of debating skills on my part, but I think this is an instance when 'agree to disagree' is the best course to take.

I'm a REer, I don't have a position on this, I just don't like bad arguments.

If the data is faked, someone has to create it.  If the images are faked someone has to make them, and when you are talking about Apollo stuff someone has to build the sets, someone has to rig the wires to make them look like they are floating or bouncing in low g.  Someone has to shoot it, developer it, edit it, edit the sound.
Over the course of the years you are still talking about thousands of people.
They actually fired those rockets, someone had to control them so that they came down where no one could see them, if it was faked. 
It's still a crazy number of people.

If the data is faked, someone has to create it.  If the images are faked someone has to make them, and when you are talking about Apollo stuff someone has to build the sets, someone has to rig the wires to make them look like they are floating or bouncing in low g.  Someone has to shoot it, developer it, edit it, edit the sound.
Over the course of the years you are still talking about thousands of people.
They actually fired those rockets, someone had to control them so that they came down where no one could see them, if it was faked. 
It's still a crazy number of people.

How do you get to thousands? I mean, take just filming the moon landing; it's easy to get a film crew that still thinks space travel's real, show them grainy footage and say that they just want a better copy for the public. I've seen that argument for a fair few points; someone can contribute to the conspiracy without knowing it exists.
The way the weak conspiracy model's usually said to work, you only really need a good first generation. After that it's all self-sustaining because everyone assumes it's accurate and won't believe otherwise without something extraordinary. All things considered it's not a huge gap between "Touch up these photos," to "People are losing interest, could you make us something spectacular looking?" and you never need to mention that space travel's faked.

By its very nature, any halfway smart conspiracy is nigh-unfalsifiable.

They could simply be mistaken, as we as a society have been many times in the past. I'm sure 300 years ago we thought we had all the answers to everything about the universe as well. Well, at least the important stuff. Time has shown us, as it will again, to have been wrong.

Really? when NASA posts images like this: Maybe that's why Galileo (is reputed to have) said "E pur si muove".

And yet it moves . . . . (Italian: E pur si muove . . . . ) is a phrase attributed to the Italian mathematician, physicist and philosopher Galileo Galilei (1564–1642) in 1633 after being forced to recant his claims that the Earth moves around the immovable Sun rather than the converse during the Galileo affair.

- In fact he most likely did not say that or would in all probability have died in custody.

But we not only have NASA images for EPIC, images from Europe's ESA, Russian ROSCOSMOS and Japan's JMA
Looks like we've lost the Americas in those photos! Someone else can go and find them

If these space agencies were not part of some global conspiracy, why would they all give such undeniable evidence of the globe from satellite photos? 
During the Cold War, in particular, Russia would have been delighted to prove that the American space missions were fake.

Surely it's simply a case of no conspiracy, no flat earth.

Quote from: Badxtoss on July 30, 2017, 03:09:08 PM

If the data is faked, someone has to create it.  If the images are faked someone has to make them, and when you are talking about Apollo stuff someone has to build the sets, someone has to rig the wires to make them look like they are floating or bouncing in low g.  Someone has to shoot it, developer it, edit it, edit the sound.
Over the course of the years you are still talking about thousands of people.
They actually fired those rockets, someone had to control them so that they came down where no one could see them, if it was faked. 
It's still a crazy number of people.

How do you get to thousands? I mean, take just filming the moon landing; it's easy to get a film crew that still thinks space travel's real, show them grainy footage and say that they just want a better copy for the public. I've seen that argument for a fair few points; someone can contribute to the conspiracy without knowing it exists.
The way the weak conspiracy model's usually said to work, you only really need a good first generation. After that it's all self-sustaining because everyone assumes it's accurate and won't believe otherwise without something extraordinary. All things considered it's not a huge gap between "Touch up these photos," to "People are losing interest, could you make us something spectacular looking?" and you never need to mention that space travel's faked.

By its very nature, any halfway smart conspiracy is nigh-unfalsifiable.

Someone has to create that original grainy footage to begin with.  All that does is add even more people to the conspiracy.  Even taking your example, they are still in on a conspiracy.  All those photos and videos are said to be real.  Now you have whole crews that know they are not.
Yeah, it would take thousands of people over the decades of space travel.

Someone has to create that original grainy footage to begin with.  All that does is add even more people to the conspiracy.  Even taking your example, they are still in on a conspiracy.  All those photos and videos are said to be real.  Now you have whole crews that know they are not.
Yeah, it would take thousands of people over the decades of space travel.

Again, it still just takes a first generation, and it's much easier to make poor-quality footage than proper.
And sure, technically they're in on a conspiracy, but what is there to leak? They aren't aware of any big secrets, they don't have any more information than sometimes needing to make photos and videos seem a bit more impressive.
It's the fun part of thinking about conspiracies; a good one needs to strike a balance. The less important a secret is, the more unlikely it is for anyone to bother leaking it. If one time you ate a whole cake in one sitting and you swore your friends to silence about it, they're less likely to talk about that than if you committed murder and asked them to keep that secret. In this case, the only at all large conspiracy is the cake.

Quote from: Badxtoss on July 30, 2017, 03:09:08 PM

If the data is faked, someone has to create it.  If the images are faked someone has to make them, and when you are talking about Apollo stuff someone has to build the sets, someone has to rig the wires to make them look like they are floating or bouncing in low g.  Someone has to shoot it, developer it, edit it, edit the sound.
Over the course of the years you are still talking about thousands of people.
They actually fired those rockets, someone had to control them so that they came down where no one could see them, if it was faked. 
It's still a crazy number of people.

How do you get to thousands? I mean, take just filming the moon landing; it's easy to get a film crew that still thinks space travel's real, show them grainy footage and say that they just want a better copy for the public. I've seen that argument for a fair few points; someone can contribute to the conspiracy without knowing it exists.
The way the weak conspiracy model's usually said to work, you only really need a good first generation. After that it's all self-sustaining because everyone assumes it's accurate and won't believe otherwise without something extraordinary. All things considered it's not a huge gap between "Touch up these photos," to "People are losing interest, could you make us something spectacular looking?" and you never need to mention that space travel's faked.

By its very nature, any halfway smart conspiracy is nigh-unfalsifiable.

If it were just some pictures or a few people on a sound stage that would be one thing.  There’s a certain number of those in the control room receiving telemetry would need to be involved.  A portion of the ground crew prepping the vehicles.  Those tracking the missions...and here’s the thing, we weren’t the only ones tracking the Apollo missions.  The Brits and Australians who we used to mission tracking.  Not to mention the USSR who tracked Apollo from start to finish. 

Fast forward to JAXA’s SELENE mission who provided pictures of the landing sites.  That’s four nations who would have to be in on the coverup.  The Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter mission also showing pictures of the Apollo landing sites.  That could be limited to a dozen or so but it shows that for every additional mission or project added over the years there are more conspirators added.

Personally, I think that thousands since the Vostok & Mercury programs would be a conservative number. 

It’s plausible that the number involved over six decades could exceed ten thousand people involving five countries, maybe more.

To me the most interesting part is that even if it’s limited to one or two thousand people over six decades and not a single whistle blower, not one person coming across a document they shouldn’t see, or no death bed confessions.  That’s the most interesting point.

Mike

There would easily be hundreds of thousands with conspiracy knowledge of some sort.

If you think otherwise, you are lying to yourself.

Quote from: Badxtoss on July 30, 2017, 03:47:03 PM

Someone has to create that original grainy footage to begin with.  All that does is add even more people to the conspiracy.  Even taking your example, they are still in on a conspiracy.  All those photos and videos are said to be real.  Now you have whole crews that know they are not.
Yeah, it would take thousands of people over the decades of space travel.

Again, it still just takes a first generation, and it's much easier to make poor-quality footage than proper.
And sure, technically they're in on a conspiracy, but what is there to leak? They aren't aware of any big secrets, they don't have any more information than sometimes needing to make photos and videos seem a bit more impressive.
It's the fun part of thinking about conspiracies; a good one needs to strike a balance. The less important a secret is, the more unlikely it is for anyone to bother leaking it. If one time you ate a whole cake in one sitting and you swore your friends to silence about it, they're less likely to talk about that than if you committed murder and asked them to keep that secret. In this case, the only at all large conspiracy is the cake.

What is there to leak?  How about the idea that all of the footage and photos are faked?  That would be kind of a big deal.  Sorry but you are straight up wrong on this.  It would be a conspiracy that would involve thousands.

Quote from: Jane on July 30, 2017, 03:54:31 PM

Quote from: Badxtoss on July 30, 2017, 03:47:03 PM

Someone has to create that original grainy footage to begin with.  All that does is add even more people to the conspiracy.  Even taking your example, they are still in on a conspiracy.  All those photos and videos are said to be real.  Now you have whole crews that know they are not.
Yeah, it would take thousands of people over the decades of space travel.

Again, it still just takes a first generation, and it's much easier to make poor-quality footage than proper.
And sure, technically they're in on a conspiracy, but what is there to leak? They aren't aware of any big secrets, they don't have any more information than sometimes needing to make photos and videos seem a bit more impressive.
It's the fun part of thinking about conspiracies; a good one needs to strike a balance. The less important a secret is, the more unlikely it is for anyone to bother leaking it. If one time you ate a whole cake in one sitting and you swore your friends to silence about it, they're less likely to talk about that than if you committed murder and asked them to keep that secret. In this case, the only at all large conspiracy is the cake.

What is there to leak?  How about the idea that all of the footage and photos are faked?  That would be kind of a big deal.  Sorry but you are straight up wrong on this.  It would be a conspiracy that would involve thousands.

Except all the connotations of that are wrong; and chances are they wouldn't believe it's all faked.

Quote from: Badxtoss on July 30, 2017, 05:28:25 PM

What is there to leak?  How about the idea that all of the footage and photos are faked?  That would be kind of a big deal.  Sorry but you are straight up wrong on this.  It would be a conspiracy that would involve thousands.

Except all the connotations of that are wrong; and chances are they wouldn't believe it's all faked.

You and many others seem to insist that only those who have been to space or are directly involved in the space industry need be involved in any conspiracy, but that it totally false.

There are numerous others whose professions and daily occupations require them to perform tasks that would be totally different if the earth were flat.

This is most of a post " I prepared earlier  ":

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Since the idea of a flat earth simply cannot be entertained without all the world's space agencies being involved, I would claim that there is no possible way that the real shape can be covered up. There are at least 45 of these space agencies.

I would claim that these people would certainly know the true shape of the earth to simply perform their everyday tasks:

• All involved directly in the space industry.
  Would you suggest that those directly involved the space industry do not know the true shape of the earth?
  This has to include those processing the thousands of full hemisphere photographs of the earth. You're joking!
  
  
• All international ships' navigators: They use marine gyrocompasses and need to be proficient in celestial navigation. They must plan the appropriate course and calculate the required fuel load. The distances on the most accepted flat earth continental layout are much larger than on a globe in the Southern Hemisphere.
  
  The marine gyrocompasses rely on the earth's rotation and could not work on a stationary earth.
  
  The big killer for the usual flat earth map here is the massively extra distance of all east to/from west routes in the southern hemisphere.
  This makes a number of regular airline routes quite impossible on the flat earth.
  You might suggest some different map, but those I have seen have their own impossibilities.
  
  
• All international airline route planners, pilots and first officers: They must plan the appropriate course and calculate the required fuel load. The distances on at least the most accepted flat earth continental layout are greatly larger than on a globe in the Southern Hemisphere.
  As above.
  
  
• All astronomers, both amateur and professional: Apart from all the differences in the detail of movement of celestial objects, all astronomers are aware of the "equatorial telescope mount", which simply could not work in the same way (if at all) on a flat earth.
  The observations of even the sun and moon positions that anyone can make are completely at odds with any flat earth model.
  When you look at the unchanging shapes of the constellations, you might realise that no astronomer would think the earth flat.
  
  
• All geodetic surveyors: They take measurements on large areas of the earth, and would soon know its shape.
  
  Geodetic surveyors measure the shapes and sizes of large areas of land, including countries and continents.
  Even the shapes of, especially southern hemisphere, countries is grossly distorted on any flat earth map we have.
  
  When it comes to the dimensions of the earth we get values that simply will not fit on a flat surface.
  
  
• All surveyors dealing in mining and tunnelling: where the Gyro-Theodolite is used for finding true directions in places where celestial observations (or GPS fixes) are not possible.
  
  These instruments, like the marine gyro compass  rely on the rotation of the earth, and simply would not be possible on a stationary flat earth,
  
  
• All engineers planning microwave links: where the maximum tower spacing is determined by the curve of the earth - and yes, they do know about refraction etc.
  
  Might be a bit hard to explain to someone with your total ignorance of things like this.
  
  
• All those installing satellite TV dishes: and satellite communications links. The locations of satellites is vitally important in aligning the receiving antennae.
  
  Are you really going to pretend that all those installing satellite dishes, from the huge ones at base station to all the domestic ones are so ignorant of antenna theory that they can't tell where these dishes are pointing.
  
  

These people just go about their work based on the Globe Earth. If the earth were flat and not rotating many of these tasks would be performed quite differently or not exist at all and the people involved would certainly know the difference.

No, you cannot possibly hide the true shape of the earth from so many people.

So are all these people lying to rest of the world? I simple do not believe it.

In other words all you members of this Flat Earthism Cult are deluding yourselves and despicably calling so many honest people deceivers.

Quote from: Badxtoss on July 30, 2017, 05:28:25 PM

Quote from: Jane on July 30, 2017, 03:54:31 PM

Quote from: Badxtoss on July 30, 2017, 03:47:03 PM

Someone has to create that original grainy footage to begin with.  All that does is add even more people to the conspiracy.  Even taking your example, they are still in on a conspiracy.  All those photos and videos are said to be real.  Now you have whole crews that know they are not.
Yeah, it would take thousands of people over the decades of space travel.

Again, it still just takes a first generation, and it's much easier to make poor-quality footage than proper.
And sure, technically they're in on a conspiracy, but what is there to leak? They aren't aware of any big secrets, they don't have any more information than sometimes needing to make photos and videos seem a bit more impressive.
It's the fun part of thinking about conspiracies; a good one needs to strike a balance. The less important a secret is, the more unlikely it is for anyone to bother leaking it. If one time you ate a whole cake in one sitting and you swore your friends to silence about it, they're less likely to talk about that than if you committed murder and asked them to keep that secret. In this case, the only at all large conspiracy is the cake.

What is there to leak?  How about the idea that all of the footage and photos are faked?  That would be kind of a big deal.  Sorry but you are straight up wrong on this.  It would be a conspiracy that would involve thousands.

Except all the connotations of that are wrong; and chances are they wouldn't believe it's all faked.

This comes across as nothing more than opinion.

Quote from: Badxtoss on July 30, 2017, 05:28:25 PM

Quote from: Jane on July 30, 2017, 03:54:31 PM

Quote from: Badxtoss on July 30, 2017, 03:47:03 PM

Someone has to create that original grainy footage to begin with.  All that does is add even more people to the conspiracy.  Even taking your example, they are still in on a conspiracy.  All those photos and videos are said to be real.  Now you have whole crews that know they are not.
Yeah, it would take thousands of people over the decades of space travel.

Again, it still just takes a first generation, and it's much easier to make poor-quality footage than proper.
And sure, technically they're in on a conspiracy, but what is there to leak? They aren't aware of any big secrets, they don't have any more information than sometimes needing to make photos and videos seem a bit more impressive.
It's the fun part of thinking about conspiracies; a good one needs to strike a balance. The less important a secret is, the more unlikely it is for anyone to bother leaking it. If one time you ate a whole cake in one sitting and you swore your friends to silence about it, they're less likely to talk about that than if you committed murder and asked them to keep that secret. In this case, the only at all large conspiracy is the cake.

What is there to leak?  How about the idea that all of the footage and photos are faked?  That would be kind of a big deal.  Sorry but you are straight up wrong on this.  It would be a conspiracy that would involve thousands.

Except all the connotations of that are wrong; and chances are they wouldn't believe it's all faked.

I think your view is way over simplistic.  We’re not just talking about a couple of faked photos/videos.

This thread is also about the FE conspiracie which would involve nearly every major country on the planet.  Certainly, every country with a claim to or having explored Antarctica.  Every country involved in launching all the manned & unmanned missions leading up to 6 moon landings, 135 shuttle missions, almost 150 Soyuz missions, including Apollo-Soyuz, some 2200 satellites currently in orbit, a dozen or so countries with actual launch capability, and how many of the 22 countries in the European Space Agency.

How many people involved in geophysical research would need to be involved?  For example, how many cosmologists/astronomers?  How many of those who’ve been stationed at or have done research in Antarctica?  How many colleges/universities? 

How far back in our history would the conspiracy have to go.  I’m thinking centuries at least.

If you’re only going to look at six moon landings you could probably get away with a couple of thousand people...maybe even less than that.  However, the implication of those missions in the scheme of a FE conspiracy over centuries instead of decades and the numbers involved becomes untenable.

Now into account that today most people know that no matter how big the thing you leak is you’re not likely to get caught.  The wikileaks dumps would be unstoppable and everyone knows it.

This is bigger than a couple of photos and grainy video tape.  In fact I would go so far as to say that the "Weak Conspiracy" in your Compendium is not even possible.  I would say that any conspiracy to hide a flat earth must include aspects of both of your weak & strong conspiracies.  It must include collusion between governments (at least those with space launch capabilities).  Collusion with nearly all of academia/universities involved with earth sciences, physics, astronomy, cosmology, aeronautics, etc.

IMHO, it is impossible for any FE conspiracy to be limited to space travel.

Mike

There would easily be hundreds of thousands with conspiracy knowledge of some sort.

If you think otherwise, you are lying to yourself.

There are 10 million people working in avaiation alone - a notable proportion of those would have to be in on it. Along with all the other disciplines and professions that outwardly deal with a round earth, the number in on the conspiracy would be in the millions. Impossible to maintain that. I can only conclude there is no conspiracy - and since conspiracy is the only thing that props up flat earth, therefore there can be no flat earth on this logic alone.