The Flat Earth Society
Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Debate => Topic started by: I am not Tom Bishop but I can't prove it on April 27, 2007, 11:43:10 AM
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I have some questions for all of you, including both round earth theorists and flat earth theorists. What made you seek out this site? What propelled you to come here? How did you even find out about it? And what makes you keep coming back? Since most round earth theorists are so convinced that the earth is round and that flat earth theorists have gone off the deep end, I think this is fair to ask.
From what I've gathered so far, round earth theorists believe in these fundamental truths:
1. Truth can only be found by consensus. You cannot rely on yourself alone since you can be deceived. What the majority constitutes as evidence is proof. What the minority constitutes as evidence is an illusion.
2. Humans can create reliable devices which can come up with truths that humans alone cannot.
3. Truth is ever changing. With more reliable formulas and computers, previous truths are discarded and replaced by new truths.
Now, since you guys picked apart what I considered my fundamental truths, I think it is only fair that I pick these apart. (By the way, let me know if I got the above fundamentals wrong, according to your view.)
If I cannot rely on myself alone to determine the truth and have to rely on what the majority thinks, then what about this: Christianity is the one true religion. Why? Because there are more Christians in the world than any other religion. Here is the breakdown:
1) Christians - 2,116,909,552 (which includes 1,117,759,185 Roman Catholics, 372,586,395 Protestants, 221,746,920 Orthodox, and 81,865,869 Anglicans)
2) Muslims - 1,282,780,149
3) Hindus - 856,690,863
4) Buddhists - 381,610,979
5) Sikhs - 25,139,912
6) Jews - 14,826,102
And...
a) Others - 814,146,396
b) Non-Religious - 801,898,746
c) Atheists - 152,128,701
http://geography.about.com/od/culturalgeography/a/popularreligion.htm
Now of course these numbers should be questioned, as this comes from a government source (the CIA!). Not to mention we are not told how they came up with these numbers. But let's for argument's sake assume that these numbers are correct.
So why doesn't science proclaim that Christianity is the one true religion? After all, the majority believes in it. Also, shouldn't Biblical truths then override truths that science comes up with?
Now about the second point... humans can create devices which are more truthful than they are. What if one day we were able to create artificial intelligence to rival man, and this machine came to the conclusion that humans are a threat to the universe and should be wiped out? Is it then justifiable for the computer to systematically destroy the human race? And going back to the first point, if these computers were able to convince the majority of humans of the validity of their proofs, then doesn't this make it out to be true?
As for the last point... since truth is not fixed and rock solid, then how can you even argue about what is true and what is not? Something might be discovered tomorrow that renders everything you know today to be false. What's even the point?
Anyway, I would like you round earth theorists to answer these questions please, if you can without degenerating into calling me stupid or an imbecile or saying I shouldn't be born. Let's keep it civil for once.
And let me say once more, I am not Tom. But I guess going back to the last point, since truth is ever changing, if more people on here believe I am not Tom, then at that point I am no longer Tom. ::)
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I have some questions for all of you, including both round earth theorists and flat earth theorists. What made you seek out this site? What propelled you to come here? How did you even find out about it? And what makes you keep coming back? Since most round earth theorists are so convinced that the earth is round and that flat earth theorists have gone off the deep end, I think this is fair to ask.
I didn't seek out this site, someone told me about it. I joined here simply to try and get some people to join my forum but I gave up on that after about 5 minutes and 'got involved'. I keep coming back because this place is highly entertaining, plus when I read the debate threads I feel ever so slightly intelligent and sometimes I learn things.
As for the rest of your post, seems mostly pointless to me you saying all that, trying to explain scientific beliefs using an example of religious beliefs seems a bit silly to me.
But this bit
As for the last point... since truth is not fixed and rock solid, then how can you even argue about what is true and what is not? Something might be discovered tomorrow that renders everything you know today to be false. What's even the point?
I kinda agree with you there...
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I have some questions for all of you, including both round earth theorists and flat earth theorists. What made you seek out this site? What propelled you to come here? How did you even find out about it? And what makes you keep coming back? Since most round earth theorists are so convinced that the earth is round and that flat earth theorists have gone off the deep end, I think this is fair to ask.
I didn't seek out this site, someone told me about it. I joined here simply to try and get some people to join my forum but I gave up on that after about 5 minutes and 'got involved'. I keep coming back because this place is highly entertaining, plus when I read the debate threads I feel ever so slightly intelligent and sometimes I learn things.
As for the rest of your post, seems mostly pointless to me you saying all that, trying to explain scientific beliefs using an example of religious beliefs seems a bit silly to me.
But this bit
As for the last point... since truth is not fixed and rock solid, then how can you even argue about what is true and what is not? Something might be discovered tomorrow that renders everything you know today to be false. What's even the point?
I kinda agree with you there...
Okay, you think religious beliefs cannot be used to explain scientific beliefs. But doesn't this make science indisputable then according to science? Scientific methods are accepted without question. Only scientific methods can be relied upon. Any other method cannot be relied on. I don't see much difference between this and what some fundamentalists believe, that you can only rely on the Bible.
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Okay, you think religious beliefs cannot be used to explain scientific beliefs. But doesn't this make science indisputable then according to science? Scientific methods are accepted without question. Only scientific methods can be relied upon. Any other method cannot be relied on. I don't see much difference between this and what some fundamentalists believe, that you can only rely on the Bible.
Didnt I tell you not to talk about science?
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Okay, you think religious beliefs cannot be used to explain scientific beliefs. But doesn't this make science indisputable then according to science? Scientific methods are accepted without question. Only scientific methods can be relied upon. Any other method cannot be relied on. I don't see much difference between this and what some fundamentalists believe, that you can only rely on the Bible.
But religion is more a matter of opinion than a matter of using methods and experiements to reach a conclusion...the two cannot be compared to each other.
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Okay, you think religious beliefs cannot be used to explain scientific beliefs. But doesn't this make science indisputable then according to science? Scientific methods are accepted without question. Only scientific methods can be relied upon. Any other method cannot be relied on. I don't see much difference between this and what some fundamentalists believe, that you can only rely on the Bible.
Didnt I tell you not to talk about science?
See, this is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Since some people cannot answer my questions and they need to convince themselves that they know everything, they have to come back with a putdown.
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Okay, you think religious beliefs cannot be used to explain scientific beliefs. But doesn't this make science indisputable then according to science? Scientific methods are accepted without question. Only scientific methods can be relied upon. Any other method cannot be relied on. I don't see much difference between this and what some fundamentalists believe, that you can only rely on the Bible.
But religion is more a matter of opinion than a matter of using methods and experiements to reach a conclusion...the two cannot be compared to each other.
Religion can claim that this is what God said. Religious people can claim they used non scientific methods to get to the truth. To them it is truth, just gotten by a different method.
I agree that you cannot really compare apples and oranges, so forget about that part. But how do you prove that the scientific method is correct? It seems to have assumptions built into its belief system.
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Scientific method has its foundation in logic. It tries to be objective, whereas zetetic method seems to be pretty subjective. And when I say that I think it's important to trust the consensus, I'm talking about the consensus among people who know what they're talking about. I don't believe the earth is round because everybody around me believes the earth is round. That would be short-sighted. I don't think, however, that it is short-sighted to believe the earth is round because that's the conclusion that thousands of people who understand these things a lot more than me have already come to.
Obviously truth can not only be found by consensus. Truth is usually discovered by one man. That truth will be unpopular until it has been tested and verified. Hence scientific method, and hence its tendency to be (mostly) non-biased. As I've pointed out in the past, Newton merely discovered gravity; it wasn't widely accepted until it had gone through rigorous experimentation and verification. And herein lies the problem with trusting a fringe book like Earth Not a Globe.
Not long after the original experiments, one of Rowbotham's cornerstones, the Bedford Level Experiment, was disproved by Alfred Russel Wallace. Wallace, in direct opposition to Rowbotham, was a qualified surveyor, so he knew what he was doing. If Wallace had undergone the experiment and come to the same conclusion as Rowbotham, FET would probably be more widely accepted. But he didn't. One of the important things about scientific method is that the result must be repeated by others in the scientific community. The Bedford Level Experiment failed in this respect. FEers base their belief in a book with an already faulty premise.
And I still think you're Tom.
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From what I've gathered so far, round earth theorists believe in these fundamental truths:
1. Truth can only be found by consensus. You cannot rely on yourself alone since you can be deceived. What the majority constitutes as evidence is proof. What the minority constitutes as evidence is an illusion.
That's a fallacy. Science holds a majority opinion in no greater light than a minority opinion. It's about observation and experimentation and being able to make accurate predictions through these observations and experiments. Even when the majority said black holes were science fiction, the observations and experiments said they exist. And since then, future observations and experiments support the theory black holes exist.
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Scientific method has its foundation in logic. It tries to be objective, whereas zetetic method seems to be pretty subjective. And when I say that I think it's important to trust the consensus, I'm talking about the consensus among people who know what they're talking about. I don't believe the earth is round because everybody around me believes the earth is round. That would be short-sighted. I don't think, however, that it is short-sighted to believe the earth is round because that's the conclusion that thousands of people who understand these things a lot more than me have already come to.
Obviously truth can not only be found by consensus. Truth is usually discovered by one man. That truth will be unpopular until it has been tested and verified. Hence scientific method, and hence its tendency to be (mostly) non-biased. As I've pointed out in the past, Newton merely discovered gravity; it wasn't widely accepted until it had gone through rigorous experimentation and verification. And herein lies the problem with trusting a fringe book like Earth Not a Globe.
Not long after the original experiments, one of Rowbotham's cornerstones, the Bedford Level Experiment, was disproved by Alfred Russel Wallace. Wallace, in direct opposition to Rowbotham, was a qualified surveyor, so he knew what he was doing. If Wallace had undergone the experiment and come to the same conclusion as Rowbotham, FET would probably be more widely accepted. But he didn't. One of the important things about scientific method is that the result must be repeated by others in the scientific community. The Bedford Level Experiment failed in this respect. FEers base their belief in a book with an already faulty premise.
And I still think you're Tom.
Logic... and logic was created by human beings... True and false does not exist in nature. So how do you then explain that different scientists come up with different sets of logic? Can there only be one true logic and the rest are flawed?
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Did you read the first sentence in my post and then just skip past the rest? I ask because you seem to completely miss the point. ;D
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From what I've gathered so far, round earth theorists believe in these fundamental truths:
1. Truth can only be found by consensus. You cannot rely on yourself alone since you can be deceived. What the majority constitutes as evidence is proof. What the minority constitutes as evidence is an illusion.
That's a fallacy. Science holds a majority opinion in no greater light than a minority opinion. It's about observation and experimentation and being able to make accurate predictions through these observations and experiments. Even when the majority said black holes were science fiction, the observations and experiments said they exist. And since then, future observations and experiments support the theory black holes exist.
But see, I was told by round earth theorists that what I observe with my senses can be deceiving. So just because you can confirm your formulas by experiments doesn't prove anything. What you believe to be a confirmation could turn out to be false.
And there is something to be said about repetition. But I can apply that to flat earth theory. Every time I go to the beach, I see a flat horizon. I have never felt the earth spin on its axis. I have never felt the earth traveling through space. I have never been able to measure Everest.
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Did you read the first sentence in my post and then just skip past the rest? I ask because you seem to completely miss the point. ;D
No, I didn't. Also, not one of you answered every question in my original post. No one mentioned anything about the AI part. I think you guys missed by original point. You guys are so sure of your beliefs but I'm showing you that every belief is ultimately subjective.
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What do you measure the horizon with? Do you just look and say "looks flat to me", or do you actually break out some survey equipment or put any thought into it? What proof do you have the horizon is flat? See how I turned it around?
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What do you measure the horizon with? Do you just look and say "looks flat to me", or do you actually break out some survey equipment or put any thought into it? What proof do you have the horizon is flat? See how I turned it around?
Yes, I see that... but just because you turned it around doesn't make the scientific method valid.
At best, it seems like we are all clueless. It really boils down to what is reality? You guys are always busting on me for not taking physics class, but how many of you have taken philosophy? These things are questioned and discussed all the time.
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Not long after the original experiments, one of Rowbotham's cornerstones, the Bedford Level Experiment, was disproved by Alfred Russel Wallace. Wallace, in direct opposition to Rowbotham, was a qualified surveyor, so he knew what he was doing.
We don't care about Wallace. He made a large wager with an FE proponent and when he lost he attempted to argue semantics about eye level this and eye level that, completely undermining the laws of perspective. Flat Earth proponents have successfully conducted Rowbotham's experiments hundreds of times. I myself have successfully reproduced Rowbotham's findings.
The Flat Earth Society wouldn't have persisted for over 150 years if Rowbotham's findings were fallacious.
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Of course you don't care about Wallace. Because he was actually qualified to make the kinds of experiments that were performed, and proved Rowbotham wrong. Why would you want to acknowledge that? It is a black mark on Flat Earth Theory.
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The Flat Earth Society wouldn't have persisted for over 150 years if Rowbotham's findings were fallacious.
Then why would the Round Earth Society persist so long if his findings were accurate?
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I myself have successfully reproduced Rowbotham's findings.
Are you a qualified surveyor, as Wallace was (and Rowbotham was not)?
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Then why would the Round Earth Society persist so long if his findings were accurate?
For the same reason Christianity persists: Dogma and blind faith.
Are you a qualified surveyor, as Wallace was (and Rowbotham was not)?
Wallace was a spiritualist hack who wasn't even respected in scientific circles. He wasn't a surveyor.
Being a Geologist I am indeed a surveyor. It comes with the job.
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Wallace was a spiritualist hack who wasn't even respected in scientific circles. He wasn't a surveyor.
Lie. He was a spiritualist, but only later in life. He was respected for having come up with the theory of natural selection independent of Darwin, and is often referred to as the "father of biogeography". Sounds like some people in the scientific community respected him. And according to this site: http://www.wku.edu/~smithch/wallace/S162-163.htm (http://www.wku.edu/~smithch/wallace/S162-163.htm) he was an experienced surveyor. Read paragraph 1. Now provide me a source that contradicts this.
And I forgot, you have said you're a geologist in the past. I think this is a lie, Tom, to validate the results of your "experiments", but I guess you still got me there since I can't prove it.
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Then why would the Round Earth Society persist so long if his findings were accurate?
For the same reason Christianity persists. Dogma and blind faith.
Are you a qualified surveyor, as Wallace was (and Rowbotham was not)?
Wallace was a spiritualist hack who wasn't even respected in scientific circles. He wasn't a surveyor.
Being a Geologist I am a surveyor, however. It comes with the job.
Exactly. Just like Christianity has persisted, so has round earth theory. We need to reclaim the truth from the globularists.
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Wallace was a spiritualist hack who wasn't even respected in scientific circles. He wasn't a surveyor.
Lie. He was a spiritualist, but only later in life. He was respected for having come up with the theory of natural selection independent of Darwin, and is often referred to as the "father of biogeography". Sounds like some people in the scientific community respected him. And according to this site: http://www.wku.edu/~smithch/wallace/S162-163.htm (http://www.wku.edu/~smithch/wallace/S162-163.htm) he was an experienced surveyor. Read paragraph 1. Now provide me a source that contradicts this.
And I forgot, you have said you're a geologist in the past. I think this is a lie, Tom, to validate the results of your "experiments", but I guess you still got me there since I can't prove it.
You know who still wasn't (http://wasn't) an experienced surveyor? Your boy Samuel Birley Rowbotham, the father of Flat Earth Theory.
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Not long after the original experiments, one of Rowbotham's cornerstones, the Bedford Level Experiment, was disproved by Alfred Russel Wallace. Wallace, in direct opposition to Rowbotham, was a qualified surveyor, so he knew what he was doing.
We don't care about Wallace. He made a large wager with an FE proponent and when he lost he attempted to argue semantics about eye level this and eye level that, completely undermining the laws of perspective. Flat Earth proponents have successfully conducted Rowbotham's experiments hundreds of times. I myself have successfully reproduced Rowbotham's findings.
The Flat Earth Society wouldn't have persisted for over 150 years if Rowbotham's findings were fallacious.
Actually, this makes no sense. Aristotle's theories sustained for over 2000 years but were utterly flawed. A point of view held by many people for a long time does not make it correct.
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Not long after the original experiments, one of Rowbotham's cornerstones, the Bedford Level Experiment, was disproved by Alfred Russel Wallace. Wallace, in direct opposition to Rowbotham, was a qualified surveyor, so he knew what he was doing.
We don't care about Wallace. He made a large wager with an FE proponent and when he lost he attempted to argue semantics about eye level this and eye level that, completely undermining the laws of perspective. Flat Earth proponents have successfully conducted Rowbotham's experiments hundreds of times. I myself have successfully reproduced Rowbotham's findings.
The Flat Earth Society wouldn't have persisted for over 150 years if Rowbotham's findings were fallacious.
Actually, this makes no sense. Aristotle's theories sustained for over 2000 years but were utterly flawed. A point of view held by many people for a long time does not make it correct.
I agree with that. It should be looked at seriously, but it is not proof itself of its correctness.
Much the same way, just because you believed the earth was round all your life doesn't mean it was correct. Check out my thread entitled: Flat Earth Brainwashing.
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Much the same way, just because you believed the earth was round all your life doesn't mean it was correct. Check out my thread entitled: Flat Earth Brainwashing.
Check out to your nearest hospital. And stop with your RE insulting threads, it's getting quite annoying. You act as if having an opinion that is the same as 6~ billion other people makes you stupid. Great theory, but I think you're alone with it.
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Much the same way, just because you believed the earth was round all your life doesn't mean it was correct. Check out my thread entitled: Flat Earth Brainwashing.
Check out to your nearest hospital. And stop with your RE insulting threads, it's getting quite annoying. You act as if having an opinion that is the same as 6~ billion other people makes you stupid. Great theory, but I think you're alone with it.
You're just saying that because you can't answer my questions...
Oh, here's another question for you... do you really believe in "black holes" (ha!). So a star stops shining occasionally and that's proof there is this huge vacuum cleaner in space sucking up everything? So isn't it just a matter time before these interstellar vacuum cleaners suck up the entire universe? What happens then? Is there a proof for that?
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Much the same way, just because you believed the earth was round all your life doesn't mean it was correct. Check out my thread entitled: Flat Earth Brainwashing.
Check out to your nearest hospital. And stop with your RE insulting threads, it's getting quite annoying. You act as if having an opinion that is the same as 6~ billion other people makes you stupid. Great theory, but I think you're alone with it.
You're just saying that because you can't answer my questions...
Oh, here's another question for you... do you really believe in "black holes" (ha!). So a star stops shining occasionally and that's proof there is this huge vacuum cleaner in space sucking up everything? So isn't it just a matter time before these interstellar vacuum cleaners suck up the entire universe? What happens then? Is there a proof for that?
Did you miss the part in your OP when you insulted people who believe the earth is round? Anyway, do a search. Stop nagging about complete BS when you know you can easily use that stupid little search function on Wiki and find almost all your answers.
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Much the same way, just because you believed the earth was round all your life doesn't mean it was correct. Check out my thread entitled: Flat Earth Brainwashing.
Check out to your nearest hospital. And stop with your RE insulting threads, it's getting quite annoying. You act as if having an opinion that is the same as 6~ billion other people makes you stupid. Great theory, but I think you're alone with it.
You're just saying that because you can't answer my questions...
Oh, here's another question for you... do you really believe in "black holes" (ha!). So a star stops shining occasionally and that's proof there is this huge vacuum cleaner in space sucking up everything? So isn't it just a matter time before these interstellar vacuum cleaners suck up the entire universe? What happens then? Is there a proof for that?
Did you miss the part in your OP when you insulted people who believe the earth is round? Anyway, do a search. Stop nagging about complete BS when you know you can easily use that stupid little search function on Wiki and find almost all your answers.
And did you round earth theorists miss all those posts where you ridicule and make fun of us? And did you forget that this site is called theflatearthsociety.org? And did you forget to read up on the FAQ about flat earth theory? Why do people have to keep pestering Tom all the time? Poor man. It's amazing how much patience he has, finding the time to answer all your questions. But do any of you ever thank him for taking the time? No, you just hurl more abuses at him.
Also, if you round earth theorists just want to be around people who agree with you all the time, why don't you create a site called theroundearthsociety.org?
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Yarr!
t did be of concern to me when I did find this site. Me second man, Pablito Arvatrodge, did approach me one day before we did set out to the Arghctic Ocean to catch some glitterin' sea crabs, only to protest that the Flat Earth Society do be spewing blasphemous conspiracy theories that me Sea no do connect to the other side of the world as it do be flat! I do protest, for I do have seen many shadows inthe night, but let it be known! Don Carnage do no believe in ghosts or shadow objects taking his immaculate crew to the other side of the ocean! FIE ON IT ALL! FIE!
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You're just saying that because you can't answer my questions...
Oh, here's another question for you... do you really believe in "black holes" (ha!). So a star stops shining occasionally and that's proof there is this huge vacuum cleaner in space sucking up everything? So isn't it just a matter time before these interstellar vacuum cleaners suck up the entire universe? What happens then? Is there a proof for that?
A black hole has the same gravitational attraction as the star it was made from. It does gain gravitational attraction as it swallows stuff up though. However, suppose the black hole in the center of our galaxy swallowed up our entire galaxy. Our galaxy wouldn't just begin to swallow other galaxies, unless they were already destined to collide with us.
If you were to shrink the moon down small enough to become a black hole, then it would still orbit the earth the way it does now, and would still give us the tides and still regulate our tilt. It would not suck the Earth into it.
Also keep in mind, science doesn't say with 100% absolute fact black holes exist. If some experiment or other observation provided a better, more plausible explanation, the concept of black holes would be discarded.
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And did you round earth theorists miss all those posts where you ridicule and make fun of us? And did you forget that this site is called theflatearthsociety.org? And did you forget to read up on the FAQ about flat earth theory? Why do people have to keep pestering Tom all the time? Poor man. It's amazing how much patience he has, finding the time to answer all your questions. But do any of you ever thank him for taking the time? No, you just hurl more abuses at him.
And did you flat earther forget to take your nap today? I did read the FAQ, I read the opening greeting before entering the site (which it is quite obvious you didn't), and I try not to make generalizations about FE'ers. Hell, I even separate explanations that have been agreed upon by afew FE'ers, and Tom's which havn't. But have you ever realized that no two RE'ers are the same? Have you ever thanked those RE'ers who have given you answer?s No, you just hurl more abuse at them.
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And did you round earth theorists miss all those posts where you ridicule and make fun of us? And did you forget that this site is called theflatearthsociety.org? And did you forget to read up on the FAQ about flat earth theory? Why do people have to keep pestering Tom all the time? Poor man. It's amazing how much patience he has, finding the time to answer all your questions. But do any of you ever thank him for taking the time? No, you just hurl more abuses at him.
And did you flat earther forget to take your nap today? I did read the FAQ, I read the opening greeting before entering the site (which it is quite obvious you didn't), and I try not to make generalizations about FE'ers. Hell, I even separate explanations that have been agreed upon by afew FE'ers, and Tom's which havn't. But have you ever realized that no two RE'ers are the same? Have you ever thanked those RE'ers who have given you answer? No, you just hure more abuse at them.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank round earth theorists who have answered my questions. And you're right, I do sometimes lump you guys altogether. When the other side does it so much and pushes one into a corner, it's hard sometimes to realize there are different kinds of round earthers. Again, my apologies.
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You're welcome. ;D
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And did you round earth theorists miss all those posts where you ridicule and make fun of us? And did you forget that this site is called theflatearthsociety.org? And did you forget to read up on the FAQ about flat earth theory? Why do people have to keep pestering Tom all the time? Poor man. It's amazing how much patience he has, finding the time to answer all your questions. But do any of you ever thank him for taking the time? No, you just hurl more abuses at him.
And did you flat earther forget to take your nap today? I did read the FAQ, I read the opening greeting before entering the site (which it is quite obvious you didn't), and I try not to make generalizations about FE'ers. Hell, I even separate explanations that have been agreed upon by afew FE'ers, and Tom's which havn't. But have you ever realized that no two RE'ers are the same? Have you ever thanked those RE'ers who have given you answer? No, you just hure more abuse at them.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank round earth theorists who have answered my questions. And you're right, I do sometimes lump you guys altogether. When the other side does it so much and pushes one into a corner, it's hard sometimes to realize there are different kinds of round earthers. Again, my apologies.
Nice to know you have realized some faults, and it is appreciated that you have confessed to them.
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You're welcome. ;D
Not you...
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You're welcome. ;D
Not you...
Although I shouldn't post this because it's a serious forum so sorry in advance mods please don't hurt me TOLD
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You're welcome. ;D
Not you...
Although I shouldn't post this because it's a serious forum so sorry in advance mods please don't hurt me TOLD
Round Earth Conspiracist keeps spreading lies that I am Tom, so my apologies do not extend to him... The same goes for those like Akira who viciously attacks me.
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;D
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You're just saying that because you can't answer my questions...
Oh, here's another question for you... do you really believe in "black holes" (ha!). So a star stops shining occasionally and that's proof there is this huge vacuum cleaner in space sucking up everything? So isn't it just a matter time before these interstellar vacuum cleaners suck up the entire universe? What happens then? Is there a proof for that?
A black hole has the same gravitational attraction as the star it was made from. It does gain gravitational attraction as it swallows stuff up though. However, suppose the black hole in the center of our galaxy swallowed up our entire galaxy. Our galaxy wouldn't just begin to swallow other galaxies, unless they were already destined to collide with us.
If you were to shrink the moon down small enough to become a black hole, then it would still orbit the earth the way it does now, and would still give us the tides and still regulate our tilt. It would not suck the Earth into it.
Also keep in mind, science doesn't say with 100% absolute fact black holes exist. If some experiment or other observation provided a better, more plausible explanation, the concept of black holes would be discarded.
But couldn't this also be explained by stars just turning their lights off for a while? And what about the blinking effect? Couldn't that be explained by turning their on and off switches?
Tom, I know how busy you are with your research, but what's the official flat earth explanation for the behavior of stars? Can you quote from that book again (when you have some time)?
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Tom, I know how busy you are with your research
LMAO ;D
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Tom, I know how busy you are with your research
LMAO ;D
I figured you would like that. ;) Yes, I am kissing his ass big time, but I figure he needs all the love and support he can get from fellow flat earth theorists because of all the negativity he has to put up with.
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3. Truth is ever changing. With more reliable formulas and computers, previous truths are discarded and replaced by new truths.
Well, thats kinda obvius isn't it? It's called evolution. Some theories are false, and they were replaced with true ones. So previous truths aren't truths, but they aren't lies either, they were just false.
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Now about the second point... humans can create devices which are more truthful than they are. What if one day we were able to create artificial intelligence to rival man, and this machine came to the conclusion that humans are a threat to the universe and should be wiped out? Is it then justifiable for the computer to systematically destroy the human race? And going back to the first point, if these computers were able to convince the majority of humans of the validity of their proofs, then doesn't this make it out to be true?
Let's put Artificial Intelligence in perspective: As computer scientists we are still struggling with the very simple problems that we have tried to solve since the 60's. We have been successful with some tasks that are solvable by brute force, like chess, but still struggle with apparently simple things like understanding written or spoken language, recognizing objects in images and the like. The day when a machine is more intelligent than a human is so far off that we can only leave the the subject to Science Fiction.
As for your question of why did I come to this site, I am very interested in the severe problem that scientists have to make people understand the principles of science. Why do intelligent people like you have trouble understanding the difference between evidence, proof and truth? Why do people think scientists are looking back, trying to hide errors of the past? Or trying to prove what has already been decided is "true"?
True science is written when an apparent absurdity is backed by solid evidence. For example, Einstein told us that a single object could at the same time weigh less than a grain of sand and more than a car, depending on the observer. But solid evidence backs Einstein.
Seeing the way Flat Earthers think is interesting, since it they go about exactly in the opposite direction. They start from the truth as they see it, which is not absurd for somebody with no knowledge of physics, astronomy, mathematics or history, and work towards explaining what they already decided to be true. And this is happening in several areas, not just the shape of Earth.
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I have some questions for all of you, including both round earth theorists and flat earth theorists. What made you seek out this site? What propelled you to come here? How did you even find out about it? And what makes you keep coming back?
To all questions: Because it's funny
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Right on, Mrs Gore.
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3. Truth is ever changing. With more reliable formulas and computers, previous truths are discarded and replaced by new truths.
Well, thats kinda obvius isn't it? It's called evolution. Some theories are false, and they were replaced with true ones. So previous truths aren't truths, but they aren't lies either, they were just false.
I don't think so. I know I'm me and not Tom. This will never change. There is no way on earth (even a round one) that I can become Tom one day. There is only one Tom and he occupies a separate physical space from me. Therefore, I know this will never change.
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Truly irrefutable. You win all debates henceforth with your outstanding knowledge of scientific method.
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Whew! I'm glad that's settled.
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Now about the second point... humans can create devices which are more truthful than they are. What if one day we were able to create artificial intelligence to rival man, and this machine came to the conclusion that humans are a threat to the universe and should be wiped out? Is it then justifiable for the computer to systematically destroy the human race? And going back to the first point, if these computers were able to convince the majority of humans of the validity of their proofs, then doesn't this make it out to be true?
Let's put Artificial Intelligence in perspective: As computer scientists we are still struggling with the very simple problems that we have tried to solve since the 60's. We have been successful with some tasks that are solvable by brute force, like chess, but still struggle with apparently simple things like understanding written or spoken language, recognizing objects in images and the like. The day when a machine is more intelligent than a human is so far off that we can only leave the the subject to Science Fiction.
As for your question of why did I come to this site, I am very interested in the severe problem that scientists have to make people understand the principles of science. Why do intelligent people like you have trouble understanding the difference between evidence, proof and truth? Why do people think scientists are looking back, trying to hide errors of the past? Or trying to prove what has already been decided is "true"?
True science is written when an apparent absurdity is backed by solid evidence. For example, Einstein told us that a single object could at the same time weigh less than a grain of sand and more than a car, depending on the observer. But solid evidence backs Einstein.
Seeing the way Flat Earthers think is interesting, since it they go about exactly in the opposite direction. They start from the truth as they see it, which is not absurd for somebody with no knowledge of physics, astronomy, mathematics or history, and work towards explaining what they already decided to be true. And this is happening in several areas, not just the shape of Earth.
As for flat earth theorists starting with the truth first, I can say that about most of the round earth theorists here. They don't question the scientific method. They are so convinced that if they follow it, it will lead them to truth. They start by saying only science can know the truth, and then they're off to the races.
And some of them don't even practice what they preach. Let's take Round Earth Conspiracist as an example. He starts with the belief that I'm Tom, and then he goes about looking for evidence.
And isn't this what scientists do all the time? They come up with a hypothesis. They didn't discover the hypothesis. They themselves thought it all up. Then they go about testing their hypothesis. If science really didn't start with guessing what the "truth" is, I'm puzzled as to know how it works.
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Truly irrefutable. You win all debates henceforth with your outstanding knowledge of scientific method.
Oh yes, you can't answer my questions so you instead make a sarcastic remark. By the way, who said I had an outstanding knowledge of the scientific method? Do you need to be an expert in something to question it?
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So Round Earth Conspiracists tries to prove you're Tom and you take this as evidence for REers use of scientific method. Fantastic.
I made that earlier post because you weren't making any sense...
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So Round Earth Conspiracists tries to prove you're Tom and you take this as evidence for REers use of scientific method. Fantastic.
I made that earlier post because you weren't making any sense...
Oh right, but you can't explain why. You can only say so covertly using a sarcastic remark.
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It's pretty hard to explain why someone makes no sense...they just don't.
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It's pretty hard to explain why someone makes no sense...they just don't.
Oh yes, of course. No logic, no proofs what so ever. Just divine intervention I guess.
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Haha! Please read my posts full of logic and proofs to see how much respect you FEers give such trivial concepts...
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Haha! Please read my posts full of logic and proofs to see how much respect you FEers give such trivial concepts...
We did, and the logic and proofs just don't make sense. I'm sorry that all that work you did didn't result in us becoming round earth theorists like you would have hoped it would. But we must pursue the truth at all costs, even if it means disappointing our flat earth friends.
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Haha! Please read my posts full of logic and proofs to see how much respect you FEers give such trivial concepts...
We did, and the logic and proofs just don't make sense. I'm sorry that all that work you did didn't result in us becoming round earth theorists like you would have hoped it would. But we must pursue the truth at all costs, even if it means disappointing our flat earth friends.
Do you ever get tired of trying to act smarter then you are?
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I have some questions for all of you, including both round earth theorists and flat earth theorists. What made you seek out this site? What propelled you to come here? How did you even find out about it? And what makes you keep coming back?
My friend showed it to me at school. I found it so funny, I decided to join. Why miss out on the fun?
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We did, and the logic and proofs just don't make sense. I'm sorry that all that work you did didn't result in us becoming round earth theorists like you would have hoped it would. But we must pursue the truth at all costs, even if it means disappointing our flat earth friends.
Care to explain why? In the relevant threads of course. That means explaining why rather than just hand-waiving it with 'perspective effects' when it has been shown they could not account for what is observed.
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Haha! Please read my posts full of logic and proofs to see how much respect you FEers give such trivial concepts...
We did, and the logic and proofs just don't make sense. I'm sorry that all that work you did didn't result in us becoming round earth theorists like you would have hoped it would. But we must pursue the truth at all costs, even if it means disappointing our flat earth friends.
Do you ever get tired of trying to act smarter then you are?
Sokarul... you're one of the round earth people that I could truly live without on this flat earth.
Don't you ever get tired of coming here? Oh yeah, you come here for fun and you're bored. But every time you open your mouth, you sound like you are irritated and frustrated. I am not responsible for how you feel, kiddo. Now why don't you go watch some TV or some porn so that we adults can talk.
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We did, and the logic and proofs just don't make sense. I'm sorry that all that work you did didn't result in us becoming round earth theorists like you would have hoped it would. But we must pursue the truth at all costs, even if it means disappointing our flat earth friends.
Care to explain why? In the relevant threads of course. That means explaining why rather than just hand-waiving it with 'perspective effects' when it has been shown they could not account for what is observed.
Which threads? I think you're confusing me with Tom again...
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Haha! Please read my posts full of logic and proofs to see how much respect you FEers give such trivial concepts...
We did, and the logic and proofs just don't make sense. I'm sorry that all that work you did didn't result in us becoming round earth theorists like you would have hoped it would. But we must pursue the truth at all costs, even if it means disappointing our flat earth friends.
Do you ever get tired of trying to act smarter then you are?
Sokarul... you're one of the round earth people that I could truly live without on this flat earth.
Don't you ever get tired of coming here? Oh yeah, you come here for fun and you're bored. But every time you open your mouth, you sound like you are irritated and frustrated. I am not responsible for how you feel, kiddo. Now why don't you go watch some TV or some porn so that we adults can talk.
Uhmm, I'm technically not an adult yet. Does that mean I should shut up? Anyway, what's with all the fighting here? I thought this was FE debate and discussion, not tear-each-other-apartathon.
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Haha! Please read my posts full of logic and proofs to see how much respect you FEers give such trivial concepts...
We did, and the logic and proofs just don't make sense. I'm sorry that all that work you did didn't result in us becoming round earth theorists like you would have hoped it would. But we must pursue the truth at all costs, even if it means disappointing our flat earth friends.
Do you ever get tired of trying to act smarter then you are?
Sokarul... you're one of the round earth people that I could truly live without on this flat earth.
Don't you ever get tired of coming here? Oh yeah, you come here for fun and you're bored. But every time you open your mouth, you sound like you are irritated and frustrated. I am not responsible for how you feel, kiddo. Now why don't you go watch some TV or some porn so that we adults can talk.
Uhmm, I'm technically not an adult yet. Does that mean I should shut up? Anyway, what's with all the fighting here? I thought this was FE debate and discussion, not tear-each-other-apartathon.
No, no, EIRD, you sound a lot more mature than people like sokarul and akira. You get to hang with us. You're cool.
And I agree, I don't understand why it also degenerate into this... I mean, come on man... So many of you (most?) think we are totally nuts here... but what the hell did you expect? Did you guys expect to come here and have everyone nod their heads when you prove round earth theory? Some of you really need to work on setting your expectations.
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Haha! Please read my posts full of logic and proofs to see how much respect you FEers give such trivial concepts...
We did, and the logic and proofs just don't make sense. I'm sorry that all that work you did didn't result in us becoming round earth theorists like you would have hoped it would. But we must pursue the truth at all costs, even if it means disappointing our flat earth friends.
Do you ever get tired of trying to act smarter then you are?
Sokarul... you're one of the round earth people that I could truly live without on this flat earth.
Don't you ever get tired of coming here? Oh yeah, you come here for fun and you're bored. But every time you open your mouth, you sound like you are irritated and frustrated. I am not responsible for how you feel, kiddo. Now why don't you go watch some TV or some porn so that we adults can talk.
Nope, I came here because someone posted this site on another forum. I will be here until the site closes.
You keep talking about the scientific method yet you are probably a business major working in a cubical with no windows in sight.
Scientists observe something, make a theory, and then figure out a way to test the theory. You make up theories from stuff you haven't even seen and then just assume they are right. The only scientific method that is wrong is yours.
And BTW I'm 22, not exactly a kid.
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The threads you request are "The Unrefuted" (an amalgamation of previous arguments that went without any satisfactory rebuttal) and "Photographic evidence for a Round Earth".
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Haha! Please read my posts full of logic and proofs to see how much respect you FEers give such trivial concepts...
We did, and the logic and proofs just don't make sense. I'm sorry that all that work you did didn't result in us becoming round earth theorists like you would have hoped it would. But we must pursue the truth at all costs, even if it means disappointing our flat earth friends.
Do you ever get tired of trying to act smarter then you are?
Sokarul... you're one of the round earth people that I could truly live without on this flat earth.
Don't you ever get tired of coming here? Oh yeah, you come here for fun and you're bored. But every time you open your mouth, you sound like you are irritated and frustrated. I am not responsible for how you feel, kiddo. Now why don't you go watch some TV or some porn so that we adults can talk.
Nope, I came here because someone posted this site on another forum. I will be here until the site closes.
You keep talking about the scientific method yet you are probably a business major working in a cubical with no windows in sight.
Scientists observe something, make a theory, and then figure out a way to test the theory. You make up theories from stuff you haven't even seen and then just assume they are right. The only scientific method that is wrong is yours.
And BTW I'm 22, not exactly a kid.
That's what they all say... Someone posted about this on another forum... but that still doesn't explain why you spend so much time here... I read stuff posted by people all the time, and I don't go following them over there. Could it be because you too question what you have been taught?
No my theories are based on what I see with my own two eyes.
And 22 is a kid... when I was your age, I didn't know who the hell I was (I also thought the earth was round--can you believe that?)
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No, no, EIRD, you sound a lot more mature than people like sokarul and akira. You get to hang with us. You're cool.
Haha, anyone can "hang" with anyone here, you're not stopping anybody.
And I agree, I don't understand why it also degenerate into this... I mean, come on man... So many of you (most?) think we are totally nuts here... but what the hell did you expect? Did you guys expect to come here and have everyone nod their heads when you prove round earth theory? Some of you really need to work on setting your expectations.
To put it bluntly, yes.
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No, no, EIRD, you sound a lot more mature than people like sokarul and akira. You get to hang with us. You're cool.
Haha, anyone can "hang" with anyone here, you're not stopping anybody.
And I agree, I don't understand why it also degenerate into this... I mean, come on man... So many of you (most?) think we are totally nuts here... but what the hell did you expect? Did you guys expect to come here and have everyone nod their heads when you prove round earth theory? Some of you really need to work on setting your expectations.
To put it bluntly, yes.
Well then, you are going to be very disappointed in life. I bet you throw your slippers at the TV whenever you hear something you don't like. ;)
No two people see eye to eye on everything. Try arguing like this in any relationship, and let's see how far your "logic" will go.
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Ahem....my post?
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That's what they all say... Someone posted about this on another forum... but that still doesn't explain why you spend so much time here... I read stuff posted by people all the time, and I don't go following them over there. Could it be because you to question what you have been taught?
You're in no position to talk this way. If someone says it was posted on another forum, as for as you know, thats true. Just because someone posts a lot, or is logged in for a long time doesn't mean they are at the site or even at their computer for a long time. I come here everyday for a while, because i want to see what FE'rs will say next.
No my theories are based on what I see with my own two eyes.
No they're not. You frequently ask Tom to come over and bail you out with his "book that he quotes from". Obviously, your own two eyes aren't enough.
And 22 is a kid... when I was your age, I didn't who the hell I was (I also thought the earth was round--can you believe that?)
22 is a legal adult. It doesn't matter what you were when you were his age, he's not you and vice versa.
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The threads you request are "The Unrefuted" (an amalgamation of previous arguments that went without any satisfactory rebuttal) and "Photographic evidence for a Round Earth".
I didn't post in The Unrefuted. In the Photographic thread, I was the one who questioned the height of Everest. Please learn to distinguish who posts what before telling someone to answer.
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Haha! Please read my posts full of logic and proofs to see how much respect you FEers give such trivial concepts...
We did, and the logic and proofs just don't make sense. I'm sorry that all that work you did didn't result in us becoming round earth theorists like you would have hoped it would. But we must pursue the truth at all costs, even if it means disappointing our flat earth friends.
Do you ever get tired of trying to act smarter then you are?
Sokarul... you're one of the round earth people that I could truly live without on this flat earth.
Don't you ever get tired of coming here? Oh yeah, you come here for fun and you're bored. But every time you open your mouth, you sound like you are irritated and frustrated. I am not responsible for how you feel, kiddo. Now why don't you go watch some TV or some porn so that we adults can talk.
Nope, I came here because someone posted this site on another forum. I will be here until the site closes.
You keep talking about the scientific method yet you are probably a business major working in a cubical with no windows in sight.
Scientists observe something, make a theory, and then figure out a way to test the theory. You make up theories from stuff you haven't even seen and then just assume they are right. The only scientific method that is wrong is yours.
And BTW I'm 22, not exactly a kid.
That's what they all say... Someone posted about this on another forum... but that still doesn't explain why you spend so much time here... I read stuff posted by people all the time, and I don't go following them over there. Could it be because you to question what you have been taught?
No my theories are based on what I see with my own two eyes.
And 22 is a kid... when I was your age, I didn't who the hell I was (I also thought the earth was round--can you believe that?)
So you have seen Mt Everest? Thats why you know they blew it up? You saw it when it was higher then it is now? I may have never been up high enough to see the curavture but I have seen countless picture. I have seen hours of video. I have seen what photoshop can and cant do. I have seen pictures from hobbyists with expensive telescopes. I have seen a planet transit the sun. I believe in technology over a book that was written when people still thought the moon was made of cheese.
I have never doubted the earth was round. But then again, I didn't sleep through school. I have thought about the evidence for both sides but I just cant accept a shadow object blocks out the moon during an eclipse.
I'm always on because I have a badass computer that is always on and my school has no less then 7 computer labs.
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Well then, you are going to be very disappointed in life. I bet you throw your slippers at the TV whenever you hear something you don't like. Wink
I just turn the channel actually. This is you coming back to accusing me of being angry and that i need it to be managed.
No two people see eye to eye on everything. Try arguing like this in any relationship, and let's see how far your "logic" will go.
No one ever asked an FE'r to agree with everything they say. I say the earth is round, many people on here agree. Are you telling me it's not logical for the proving of something to be true should convince another that it is true? With this "logic" nothing is true. With this "logic" proof isn't proof. You're stuck in a paradox.
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That's what they all say... Someone posted about this on another forum... but that still doesn't explain why you spend so much time here... I read stuff posted by people all the time, and I don't go following them over there. Could it be because you to question what you have been taught?
You're in no position to talk this way. If someone says it was posted on another forum, as for as you know, thats true. Just because someone posts a lot, or is logged in for a long time doesn't mean they are at the site or even at their computer for a long time. I come here everyday for a while, because i want to see what FE'rs will say next.
No my theories are based on what I see with my own two eyes.
No they're not. You frequently ask Tom to come over and bail you out with his "book that he quotes from". Obviously, your own two eyes aren't enough.
And 22 is a kid... when I was your age, I didn't who the hell I was (I also thought the earth was round--can you believe that?)
22 is a legal adult. It doesn't matter what you were when you were his age, he's not you and vice versa.
I am in a position to talk this way. He attacked me first. Don't expect me to kiss his ass if he attacks.
Oh, asking for quote is bailing me out. Hahahahaha, I'm on trial here? Okay, errrr
"Obviously, your own two eyes aren't enough." <--- if this isn't an attack I don't know what is... oh but I deserved it right... its okay for some of you to talk trash but not me
It's amazing how many younglings are here who think they know everything. That's really my point. Did it ever cross your mind that I might be playing devil's advocate? Nooooooooooo..... Can't be... I'm Tom.... noooooo
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I didn't post in The Unrefuted. In the Photographic thread, I was the one who questioned the height of Everest. Please learn to distinguish who posts what before telling someone to answer.
I know you didn't post. My point is that you and your fellow FEers have entirely failed to show why it is wrong...
And questioning the height of everest did nothing but lead us off topic for about 3 pages.
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Haha! Please read my posts full of logic and proofs to see how much respect you FEers give such trivial concepts...
We did, and the logic and proofs just don't make sense. I'm sorry that all that work you did didn't result in us becoming round earth theorists like you would have hoped it would. But we must pursue the truth at all costs, even if it means disappointing our flat earth friends.
Do you ever get tired of trying to act smarter then you are?
Sokarul... you're one of the round earth people that I could truly live without on this flat earth.
Don't you ever get tired of coming here? Oh yeah, you come here for fun and you're bored. But every time you open your mouth, you sound like you are irritated and frustrated. I am not responsible for how you feel, kiddo. Now why don't you go watch some TV or some porn so that we adults can talk.
Nope, I came here because someone posted this site on another forum. I will be here until the site closes.
You keep talking about the scientific method yet you are probably a business major working in a cubical with no windows in sight.
Scientists observe something, make a theory, and then figure out a way to test the theory. You make up theories from stuff you haven't even seen and then just assume they are right. The only scientific method that is wrong is yours.
And BTW I'm 22, not exactly a kid.
That's what they all say... Someone posted about this on another forum... but that still doesn't explain why you spend so much time here... I read stuff posted by people all the time, and I don't go following them over there. Could it be because you to question what you have been taught?
No my theories are based on what I see with my own two eyes.
And 22 is a kid... when I was your age, I didn't who the hell I was (I also thought the earth was round--can you believe that?)
So you have seen Mt Everest? Thats why you know they blew it up? You saw it when it was higher then it is now? I may have never been up high enough to see the curavture but I have seen countless picture. I have seen hours of video. I have seen what photoshop can and cant do. I have seen pictures from hobbyists with expensive telescopes. I have seen a planet transit the sun. I believe in technology over a book that was written when people still thought the moon was made of cheese.
I have never doubted the earth was round. But then again, I didn't sleep through school. I have thought about the evidence for both sides but I just cant accept a shadow object blocks out the moon during an eclipse.
I'm always on because I have a badass computer that is always on and my school has no less then 7 computer labs.
I didn't see Everest. And I never claimed the top was bombed. It was just speculation... I said IF Everest was tall enough to blow away round earth theory, the government must have blown away the top. That's all. I'm not claiming this is true, just throwing suggestions out there...
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But you totally led the discussion away from any real debate. My argument had nothing to do with everest's actual height, just with its status as the highest mountain around.
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I didn't post in The Unrefuted. In the Photographic thread, I was the one who questioned the height of Everest. Please learn to distinguish who posts what before telling someone to answer.
I know you didn't post. My point is that you and your fellow FEers have entirely failed to show why it is wrong...
And questioning the height of everest did nothing but lead us off topic for about 3 pages.
You and your fellow FEers... This is not a conspiracy... we don't huddle together and discuss our strategies...
Tom is a busy man. He is researching flat earth theory. And yes, I did lead the conversation away by me questioning Everest, but I just couldn't resist. Sorry.
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I'm not saying it is a conspiracy. I'm saying that this is something FEers have in common (i.e. none of you have successfully answered my threads).
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Well then, you are going to be very disappointed in life. I bet you throw your slippers at the TV whenever you hear something you don't like. Wink
I just turn the channel actually. This is you coming back to accusing me of being angry and that i need it to be managed.
No two people see eye to eye on everything. Try arguing like this in any relationship, and let's see how far your "logic" will go.
No one ever asked an FE'r to agree with everything they say. I say the earth is round, many people on here agree. Are you telling me it's not logical for the proving of something to be true should convince another that it is true? With this "logic" nothing is true. With this "logic" proof isn't proof. You're stuck in a paradox.
I dare you to talk to a fundamentalist and try to convert them. Try it.
It's not logical if you don't know where the other person is coming from. No one just accepts what someone they never met claims to be the truth. Never.
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I am in a position to talk this way. He attacked me first. Don't expect me to kiss his ass if he attacks.
You misunderstood what was said, reread it.
Oh, asking for quote is bailing me out. Hahahahaha, I'm on trial here? Okay, errrr
Yeah, i've seen ask Tom to give the "official" ruling on discrepancies in the FE model.
"Obviously, your own two eyes aren't enough." <--- if this isn't an attack I don't know what is... oh but I deserved it right... its okay for some of you to talk trash but not me
That's not an attack, just a logical statement.
It's amazing how many younglings are here who think they know everything. That's really my point. Did it ever cross your mind that I might be playing devil's advocate? Nooooooooooo..... Can't be... I'm Tom.... noooooo
Age doesn't determine intelligence. Just because you're older, it doesn't mean you are smarter. Just because you are playing devil's advocate, it doesn't mean people will try and tear your arguments to shreds.
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But you totally led the discussion away from any real debate. My argument had nothing to do with everest's actual height, just with its status as the highest mountain around.
It is the tallest mountain around. There is no reason to doubt it. Ask people who have climbed it and I bet they'll say it's the most they've climbed.
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But you totally led the discussion away from any real debate. My argument had nothing to do with everest's actual height, just with its status as the highest mountain around.
Come on, look at it from my perspective... I see conspiracies everywhere... If there was a point on earth where the sun never set, of course I'm going to gravitate towards the government getting rid of the evidence. I just made this up on the fly, mostly for fun. Yes, I do come here for entertainment you know (despite also believing the earth is flat).
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But you totally led the discussion away from any real debate. My argument had nothing to do with everest's actual height, just with its status as the highest mountain around.
It is the tallest mountain around. There is no reason to doubt it. Ask people who have climbed it and I bet they'll say it's the most they've climbed.
I know! :)
Edit: Nice of you to waste our time for your entertainment :) I believe it is 'debate and discussion' not 'debate and totally moronic distraction'. Just like FEers asking newbies to read the FAQ, I'm asking you to not waste time asking silly questions....
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Hold it, time out...don't you guys all think you are taking this way too seriously? My God, people chill out.... maybe it's time to admit the truth? :P
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I dare you to talk to a fundamentalist and try to convert them. Try it.
It's not logical if you don't know where the other person is coming from. No one just accepts what someone they never met claims to be the truth. Never.
I wasn't talking about claims, and neither were you. We were both talking about proof of the truth. It is completely logical to think proving that something is true is sufficient...well, proof, that something is true. Arguing otherwise is illogical and idiotic.
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Hold it, time out...don't you guys all think you are taking this way too seriously? My God, people chill out.... maybe it's time to admit the truth? :P
Taking what too seriously?
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Hold it, time out...don't you guys all think you are taking this way too seriously? My God, people chill out.... maybe it's time to admit the truth? :P
Taking what too seriously?
This flat earth vs round earth discussion. It's not the end of the world you know, regardless of who "wins" this discussion.
What if I told you I came here to play devil's advocate and see how far I could take flat earth theory? Or are you guys just SOOOOOOOOOO convinced that I am Tom at this point that the truth wouldn't even go through your head?
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Hold it, time out...don't you guys all think you are taking this way too seriously? My God, people chill out.... maybe it's time to admit the truth? :P
Taking what too seriously?
This flat earth vs round earth discussion. It's not the end of the world you know, regardless of who "wins" this discussion.
What if I told you I came here to play devil's advocate and see how far I could take flat earth theory? Or are you guys just SOOOOOOOOOO convinced that I am Tom at this point that the truth wouldn't even go through your head?
I never think anyone is Tom but Tom Bishop. I don't see why he would need alias's. There are dozens of trolls on these forums, the odds of it being Tom who researches like mad and (almost) always posts intelligently is low.
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Hold it, time out...don't you guys all think you are taking this way too seriously? My God, people chill out.... maybe it's time to admit the truth? :P
Taking what too seriously?
This flat earth vs round earth discussion. It's not the end of the world you know, regardless of who "wins" this discussion.
What if I told you I came here to play devil's advocate and see how far I could take flat earth theory? Or are you guys just SOOOOOOOOOO convinced that I am Tom at this point that the truth wouldn't even go through your head?
I never think anyone is Tom but Tom Bishop. I don't see why he would need alias's. There are dozens of trolls on these forums, the odds of it being Tom who researches like mad and (almost) always posts intelligently is low.
Do you even think a "Tom Bishop" exists?
Have you ever wondered why a site for flat earth people have moderators who don't believe in it? Do you think a flat earther would allow a nonbeliever to police the site?
I don't know the answers to these, but I'm just asking. Do you guys wonder?
My gut feeling is the joke is on us. But that's what makes this all so much fun. You don't know who's who and whether they are for real, etc.
In my opinion, it's really about testing what your beliefs are (real and made up) and seeing if they can stand the rigors of debate. I am still floored by how steadfastly all of you believe in what you believe in. It's definitely a sign of youth. The older you get the more you realize you don't know.
Anyway, I was only planning on debating this for a week, so Tom will have to carry on without me. It's been fun.
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Indeed I do think Tom exists. I have no reason to doubt he does, just like I have no reason to seriously doubt the world to be round.
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Indeed I do think Tom exists. I have no reason to doubt he does, just like I have no reason to seriously doubt the world to be round.
Why would a flat earther who believes in a government conspiracy, who believes you cannot directly attack the conspiracy head on, use his real full name and post his picture on the site? I wouldn't. Would you?
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There are plenty of FE mods. TheEngineer and Dogplatter, who both post arguments that aren't complete crap.
I think a lot of people know they will never convince a FE'r the world is round. I'm sure what originally attracted all of us was when we first saw the site, noted people's crazy beliefs and felt the urge to swear at them and tell them they're idiots. But then I got hooked because it's fun seeing what people believe in. I don't care if people believe the earth is flat, but I find it fun to show them why it can't be. That's my opinion
So TruthSeeker - you're a toss. That's also my opinion
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Why would a flat earther who believes in a government conspiracy, who believes you cannot directly attack the conspiracy head on, use his real full name and post his picture on the site? I wouldn't. Would you?
If you stand for what you believe than you have no reason not to. Although I've never heard him say that was his real pic, only his real name.
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Indeed I do think Tom exists. I have no reason to doubt he does, just like I have no reason to seriously doubt the world to be round.
Why would a flat earther who believes in a government conspiracy, who believes you cannot directly attack the conspiracy head on, use his real full name and post his picture on the site? I wouldn't. Would you?
As Tom himself has said in the past - the conspiracy lets this site remain because it makes out FE'rs to be twats. It only makes us RE'rs believe FE is crazy (and its proponents). It would arouse suspicion if the government were to close it down.
I don't believe in a conspiracy anyway, but this is pretty obvious to me.
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Why would a flat earther who believes in a government conspiracy, who believes you cannot directly attack the conspiracy head on, use his real full name and post his picture on the site? I wouldn't. Would you?
If you stand for what you believe than you have no reason not to. Although I've never heard him say that was his real pic, only his real name.
Even if your life is in danger? If I believed in the conspiracy, I would make myself as anonymous as possible on the Internet. If I believed that flat earth theory is the truth and that the government doesn't want people to know about it, I would keep myself hidden as much as possible so I can avoid being on the radar. I wouldn't publicly announce my name and my identity.
Again, these are just questions. Don't you guys ever wonder?
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There are plenty of FE mods. TheEngineer and Dogplatter, who both post arguments that aren't complete crap.
I think a lot of people know they will never convince a FE'r the world is round. I'm sure what originally attracted all of us was when we first saw the site, noted people's crazy beliefs and felt the urge to swear at them and tell them they're idiots. But then I got hooked because it's fun seeing what people believe in. I don't care if people believe the earth is flat, but I find it fun to show them why it can't be. That's my opinion
So TruthSeeker - you're a toss. That's also my opinion
I've seen them argue both ways. The point is you can't be sure of anything on here. And yet, you guys go on and on as if you know everything. That's what so funny about the whole thing. Whoever created this site is a genius.
And the funniest thing was that you all thought I was Tom. And I bet some of you still do.
Oh boy, this has been great... Thanks everyone!
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Even if your life is in danger? If I believed in the conspiracy, I would make myself as anonymous as possible on the Internet. If I believed that flat earth theory is the truth and that the government doesn't want people to know about it, I would keep myself hidden as much as possible so I can avoid being on the radar. I wouldn't publicly announce my name and my identity.
Again, these are just questions. Don't you guys ever wonder?
No I don't wonder. Becuase if you believed this then everyone you spoke to would think you were a crackpot. The government would have more to gain from letting you live and rave about FE than kill you.
Here is a table to help you understand.
DON'T KILL CRAZY FE'R KILL CRAZY FE'r
1. FE'r says CONSPIRACY! 1. FE'r says CONSPIRACY!
2. People say "you're a dickhead" 2. Governement kills FE'r
3. Less people believe in FE and 3. Some people begin to think maybe there is
RE'rs are turned off by the dickhead. a conspiracy
4. Everyone lives happily ever after 4. Not everyone is happy
See? Which one would you pick?
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I've seen them argue both ways. The point is you can't be sure of anything on here. And yet, you guys go on and on as if you know everything. That's what so funny about the whole thing. Whoever created this site is a genius.
And the funniest thing was that you all thought I was Tom. And I bet some of you still do.
Oh boy, this has been great... Thanks everyone!
For fuck's sake who cares??? Were all hear for a bit of fun. No one here thinks it matters which way if these people believe what they want. If they do they are as stupid as you.
NOTE WELL:
I don't give a shit that we can't be sure. Doesn't mean squat. People post stuff I find silly or funny, and gives me a chance to test my own knowledge and try and answer. It's ALL A BIT OF FUN.
One question before I finish ranting:
How many friends do you have?
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I've seen them argue both ways. The point is you can't be sure of anything on here. And yet, you guys go on and on as if you know everything. That's what so funny about the whole thing. Whoever created this site is a genius.
And the funniest thing was that you all thought I was Tom. And I bet some of you still do.
Oh boy, this has been great... Thanks everyone!
For fuck's sake who cares??? Were all hear for a bit of fun. No one here thinks it matters which way if these people believe what they want. If they do they are as stupid as you.
NOTE WELL:
I don't give a shit that we can't be sure. Doesn't mean squat. People post stuff I find silly or funny, and gives me a chance to test my own knowledge and try and answer. It's ALL A BIT OF FUN.
One question before I finish ranting:
How many friends do you have?
Lots. And you are a fucking asshole.
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Notice how quiet it got all of a sudden?
I wonder how long it's going to take before I get banned?
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My gut feeling is the joke is on us. But that's what makes this all so much fun. You don't know who's who and whether they are for real, etc.
Perhaps the joke is on you, TruthSeeker, and I actually really like you and your debating style. I was just offensive earlier becuase you are SO good at arguing the FE I want you off the forum.
Or maybe I think you are just trying to make yourself feel smart by pointing out the fact that none of us can know anything for real. We all know that all ready - some of just trust other people. I personally trust humanity.
Which do you believe? According to your theory you can never know if I'm for real or not, so perhaps you should also hold your tongue before insulting me.
Just a thought.
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My gut feeling is the joke is on us. But that's what makes this all so much fun. You don't know who's who and whether they are for real, etc.
Perhaps the joke is on you, TruthSeeker, and I actually really like you and your debating style. I was just offensive earlier becuase you are SO good at arguing the FE I want you off the forum.
Or maybe I think you are just trying to make yourself feel smart by pointing out the fact that none of us can know anything for real. We all know that all ready - some of just trust other people. I personally trust humanity.
Which do you believe? According to your theory you can never know if I'm for real or not, so perhaps you should also hold your tongue before insulting me.
Just a thought.
Blah, you think I actually believed in all that? I was just playing devil's advocate.
SO FUCK YOU
PS. By the way, I trust people too, but too many things don't fit together here... so I take everything with a grain of salt in this forum.
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hahaha that's better...no more airy fairy shit.
truce? or enemies?
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hahaha that's better...no more airy fairy shit.
truce? or enemies?
I don't know you. I'm not going to go to sleep at night worrying about this. You were just being rude. There are plenty more out there like you. At least you're just on the Internet. If you were at work, it would be more of a problem.
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Damn, you can hear a pin drop... so when am I going to get banned?
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hahaha that's better...no more airy fairy shit.
truce? or enemies?
I don't know you. I'm not going to go to sleep at night worrying about this. You were just being rude. There are plenty more out there like you. At least you're just on the Internet. If you were at work, it would be more of a problem.
Well that's good, I wouldn't want you losing sleep. Just being rude? I was being VERY rude. Truth is I'm a young person, very bored and procrastinating. Sorry if I came across rude...but regardless of whether or not you believe what you were saying, it was kind of inevitable someone would be rude to you. Just be thankful it was me, I'm a softy compared to some of these other RE hardnuts. Anyway I think this thread is over...I'm glad you aren't Tom - it would have detracted from his charm.
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You won't get banned, you're not annoying enough.
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hahaha that's better...no more airy fairy shit.
truce? or enemies?
I don't know you. I'm not going to go to sleep at night worrying about this. You were just being rude. There are plenty more out there like you. At least you're just on the Internet. If you were at work, it would be more of a problem.
Well that's good, I wouldn't want you losing sleep. Just being rude? I was being VERY rude. Truth is I'm a young person, very bored and procrastinating. Sorry if I came across rude...but regardless of whether or not you believe what you were saying, it was kind of inevitable someone would be rude to you. Just be thankful it was me, I'm a softy compared to some of these other RE hardnuts. Anyway I think this thread is over...I'm glad you aren't Tom - it would have detracted from his charm.
Yes, it's always bound to happen on the Internet.
Tom will carry on. And I hope he'll be able to convince lots of people that the earth is flat. Who knows, maybe he can convince me for real someday. ;)
Anyway, this was really just a test to see if I can argue something so absurd and I succeeded. There is another forum I'm on where people know about what I'm doing here, and they were commenting on just how poorly people debate on here. Maybe I should give a few tips before leaving. Or should I just get lost? lol I could give pointers to both REers and FEers.
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Give us your pointers if you really want. But don't expect many people to follow them - there are a lot of unintelligent people here.
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I have some questions for all of you, including both round earth theorists and flat earth theorists. What made you seek out this site? What propelled you to come here? How did you even find out about it? And what makes you keep coming back? Since most round earth theorists are so convinced that the earth is round and that flat earth theorists have gone off the deep end, I think this is fair to ask.
From what I've gathered so far, round earth theorists believe in these fundamental truths:
1. Truth can only be found by consensus. You cannot rely on yourself alone since you can be deceived. What the majority constitutes as evidence is proof. What the minority constitutes as evidence is an illusion.
2. Humans can create reliable devices which can come up with truths that humans alone cannot.
3. Truth is ever changing. With more reliable formulas and computers, previous truths are discarded and replaced by new truths.
Now, since you guys picked apart what I considered my fundamental truths, I think it is only fair that I pick these apart. (By the way, let me know if I got the above fundamentals wrong, according to your view.)
If I cannot rely on myself alone to determine the truth and have to rely on what the majority thinks, then what about this: Christianity is the one true religion. Why? Because there are more Christians in the world than any other religion. Here is the breakdown:
1) Christians - 2,116,909,552 (which includes 1,117,759,185 Roman Catholics, 372,586,395 Protestants, 221,746,920 Orthodox, and 81,865,869 Anglicans)
2) Muslims - 1,282,780,149
3) Hindus - 856,690,863
4) Buddhists - 381,610,979
5) Sikhs - 25,139,912
6) Jews - 14,826,102
And...
a) Others - 814,146,396
b) Non-Religious - 801,898,746
c) Atheists - 152,128,701
http://geography.about.com/od/culturalgeography/a/popularreligion.htm
Now of course these numbers should be questioned, as this comes from a government source (the CIA!). Not to mention we are not told how they came up with these numbers. But let's for argument's sake assume that these numbers are correct.
So why doesn't science proclaim that Christianity is the one true religion? After all, the majority believes in it. Also, shouldn't Biblical truths then override truths that science comes up with?
Now about the second point... humans can create devices which are more truthful than they are. What if one day we were able to create artificial intelligence to rival man, and this machine came to the conclusion that humans are a threat to the universe and should be wiped out? Is it then justifiable for the computer to systematically destroy the human race? And going back to the first point, if these computers were able to convince the majority of humans of the validity of their proofs, then doesn't this make it out to be true?
As for the last point... since truth is not fixed and rock solid, then how can you even argue about what is true and what is not? Something might be discovered tomorrow that renders everything you know today to be false. What's even the point?
Anyway, I would like you round earth theorists to answer these questions please, if you can without degenerating into calling me stupid or an imbecile or saying I shouldn't be born. Let's keep it civil for once.
And let me say once more, I am not Tom. But I guess going back to the last point, since truth is ever changing, if more people on here believe I am not Tom, then at that point I am no longer Tom. ::)
I'm going to shock everyone by going back on topic...
First of all, I came to this site because I was curious to see what arguments anyone could possibly come up with to explain a flat earth. And I have to say, I'm impressed - the theory is far more ludicrous than I could have possible imagined!
Now, about your first point:
1. Truth can only be found by consensus. You cannot rely on yourself alone since you can be deceived. What the majority constitutes as evidence is proof. What the minority constitutes as evidence is an illusion.
I certainly don't believe the majority. The fact that most people believe in a round earth has nothing to do with it - the irrefutable weight of scientific evidence does. For example, most American's don't know that Mercury is the closest planet to the sun. I know that it is, therefore I don't believe the majority. Also, I am an atheist. Most of the people on earth are Christian. I am not Christian. Therefore, I am not following the majority. I don't believe the minority (you) because of the ludicrous nature of your argument which is based on no real evidence.
2. Humans can create reliable devices which can come up with truths that humans alone cannot.
A device does not come up with a truth on its own - a human will provide it with evidence and it will do the calculations and come to a conclusion. A human could have performed those same calculations - it would have taken a lot longer, but it's possible. As for your AI scenario, the invention of artificial intelligence is so improbable we may never have to worry about that ;)
3. Truth is ever changing. With more reliable formulas and computers, previous truths are discarded and replaced by new truths.
Truth is not ever changing - our understanding of the truth is. What changes is beliefs that are not grounded in fact. We used to believe that the atom was a solid little ball. This was because we did not have the capabilities to prove or disprove this - it was just an assumption. As we became capable of digging deeper into the atom, we learnt more and more. The atom was the same shape through this - our understanding of what was inside it changed. Our knowledge that the earth is round is grounded in fact, not speculation, and therefore it cannot be proven wrong. Our knowledge of it may be advanced, but it will always be round.
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Give us your pointers if you really want. But don't expect many people to follow them - there are a lot of unintelligent people here.
lol Okay, I think I'll just get lost. Later!
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Bugger I missed all the fun and now he's gone :( And btw, to be banned all you gotta do is go off topic and piss off the mods, I would know :(
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Hahaha you sure did miss the fun.
It was fun.
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Bastards. How dare you have fun without me. That'll teach me to go out and get a life, not doing that again!
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He wasn't there, and becuase I insulted him he kind of tossed off all his veil as an impassive and inquiring mind and insulted me back. hehehe, swearing always gets them in the end.
Still, I could have used a hand. Too bad Engy, next time, next time. We'll scare off some weird new person together.
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Yeah I noticed that. But I was about to come up with the theory that he wasn't Tom, but was actually his slightly less intelligent lover. Too late for that now *sigh*
But actually I'm not keen on scaring off weird new people, because they might turn out to be weird cool people, y'know, like a certain Gayer did
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What, yourself? Were you a weird person?
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Yeah pretty much. And I had never been called a troll before I came here, I was quite upset.
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hahaha that's great. I was just on the internet one day when I saw this site. Could NOT believe my eyes. And here I am, still here, wasting a lot of my time. But it's fun.
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Least you haven't wasted as much time as me :P
So did anyone manage to succesfully argue with TomLover on this thread or not?
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Nope. I'd say we let this one die.
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Oh ok then.
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I agree.