ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist

Actually you didn't.

Actually I did, clearly explained in this post:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=87840.msg2309258#msg2309258

How about you put some honest effort in.

How about you follow your own advice and put some honest effort in yourself for once?
After all, the only one in this thread currently refusing to do so is YOU!
With you continually from your inability how magnetism relies upon air, when all the available shows that air has nothing to do with it and cannot explain it.

For example, how about you grow up, put some honest effort in and explained the observed polarity of magnets with air?

Hes not going to do shitall.
This is 30pg of delfection     across 2 threads now!


End this.
Hes clammed up.
He hasnt provided any new insight into his model for sooooooome time now.

This will thread will again end up at 100 pages plus unless we all at some point do exactly as Sceptimatic wants which is is hold our hands up and say 'hey - you are right and we were wrong... magnetism is a product of air and atmospheric pressure'..

But that will never happen of course because he isn't and it is not.

Just one question to Sceptimatic.   A nice simple experiment.  Take two bar magnets.  The two I have here have one end painted red to signify the north pole.  Now when I hold them N pole to S pole they pull together.  But when I flick one around so they are N pole to N pole (red ends together) they try to push each other apart.

The ONLY thing that has changed is the orientation of the two magnets.  How then do you explain the difference in magnetic force (from attractive to repulsive) as being attributed to the air? Onus is on you to explain this since you are the only one insisting magnetism is produced by air or atmospheric pressure.

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 19, 2021, 02:12:05 AM

Actually you didn't.

Actually I did, clearly explained in this post:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=87840.msg2309258#msg2309258

You're not explaining anything in that post. Nothing.

Hes not going to do shitall.
This is 30pg of delfection     across 2 threads now!


End this.
Hes clammed up.
He hasnt provided any new insight into his model for sooooooome time now.

Why don't you just end yourself from the thread instead of trying to be bid daddy to the rest.
You're on frustrated person. An angry person. An internet bully like a few others.
Just stay out of it with me if all you can do is have a pop.


If you want to re-engage with something worthwhile, then do so.
Just stop whining like a child.

This will thread will again end up at 100 pages plus unless we all at some point do exactly as Sceptimatic wants which is is hold our hands up and say 'hey - you are right and we were wrong... magnetism is a product of air and atmospheric pressure'..

But that will never happen of course because he isn't and it is not.

Just one question to Sceptimatic.   A nice simple experiment.  Take two bar magnets.  The two I have here have one end painted red to signify the north pole.  Now when I hold them N pole to S pole they pull together.  But when I flick one around so they are N pole to N pole (red ends together) they try to push each other apart.

The ONLY thing that has changed is the orientation of the two magnets.  How then do you explain the difference in magnetic force (from attractive to repulsive) as being attributed to the air? Onus is on you to explain this since you are the only one insisting magnetism is produced by air or atmospheric pressure.

I did explain You just decided to wave it all aside and carry a Jackblack hit of saying I didn't explain.

If you want to get the grasp of it then pay attention and stop looking for shoulder pats or cheering back pats.

Can't you people work alone?

This is always your standard way of deflecting any explanation requested of you isn't it.  I have read all of the posts in this discussion over time and I think if you had explained in any kind of rational way how magnetism can possibly be created by air or atmospheric pressure I would have noticed it.

However if you are so sure you have already explained it then just give me the reply number of the post and I will look back and read it again.

Quote from: JJA on March 18, 2021, 02:41:36 PM

I've done all of YOUR work for you so far, being the only one of us to actually perform your experiments.

Nobody but you knows how your theories work, so it doesn't matter how hard I work if you can't explain them.

Put some effort in, don't be so lazy.

How about you put some honest effort in.

I did.  How about you put any effort at all?  Or just admit you aren't capable of performing such a simple experiment?

This is always your standard way of deflecting any explanation requested of you isn't it.  I have read all of the posts in this discussion over time and I think if you had explained in any kind of rational way how magnetism can possibly be created by air or atmospheric pressure I would have noticed it.

However if you are so sure you have already explained it then just give me the reply number of the post and I will look back and read it again.

Just because you refuse to even dare to try to understand any of it and get frustrated that I won't provide you with whatever you think you require...that is of no concern to me.
You either put some unbiased effort into it from your owm brain or we will continue this tit for tat nonsense.

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 19, 2021, 02:12:55 AM

Quote from: JJA on March 18, 2021, 02:41:36 PM

I've done all of YOUR work for you so far, being the only one of us to actually perform your experiments.

Nobody but you knows how your theories work, so it doesn't matter how hard I work if you can't explain them.

Put some effort in, don't be so lazy.

How about you put some honest effort in.

I did.  How about you put any effort at all?  Or just admit you aren't capable of performing such a simple experiment?

You're about at the olwe of my shoes in terms of being anything meaningful.

Put some effort in Mr nasty or be overlooked.

Just because you refuse to even dare to try to understand any of it and get frustrated that I won't provide you with whatever you think you require.

OK so that's another one to add to the list of Sceptimatics excuses.  I only asked you to give me a reply number that's all. 

I say again, you are the only one who I have known ever to suggest there is a link between air or atmospheric pressure and magnetism so I am kind of reliant on you to explain this.  No matter how much I try to find out about this from any other source apart from you I am not going to meet with much success.

You either put some unbiased effort into it from your owm brain

What you mean make it up just like you do?  Only in your case it isn't an unbiased brain is it.

Physics is not everybody's cup of tea.

Many in this thread are too busy playing apologist to earnestly engage in discussions about (theoretical) physics.

Scepti has been trying, by dialectic, to get you to recognize that "fields" are not defined and that magnetism is currently a mystery to all physicists as a result.  Einstein recognized that his "castle in the sky" (continuous fields / fields of any kind) may well be utter fiction towards the end of his life. We are NOT talking about wild or anti-conventional physics concepts here. 

Suppose for a second, that Scepti is right (benefit of the doubt, required to earnestly evaluate and not merely "debunk")

There is something VERY small, that is a component of our air, that is responsible for magnetism. There is an abundance of it on one side (pole) of a magnet and a deficiency on the other.

Putting aside that this is a vastly more sound conception than what we currently have (magic "fields" within and comprised of nothing), from a philosophical/physics perspective - the next step is to test the notion.

As I described earlier in this thread, no experimental validation or invalidation of this hypothesis is possible until we can measure and manipulate the IV (the proposed infintessimally small thing)

That should be the focus.  Physics does not take place within the mind, i.e. thought experiment is in no way experiment.

Quote

Just because you refuse to even dare to try to understand any of it and get frustrated that I won't provide you with whatever you think you require.

OK so that's another one to add to the list of Sceptimatics excuses.  I only asked you to give me a reply number that's all. 

I say again, you are the only one who I have known ever to suggest there is a link between air or atmospheric pressure and magnetism so I am kind of reliant on you to explain this.  No matter how much I try to find out about this from any other source apart from you I am not going to meet with much success.

Quote

You either put some unbiased effort into it from your own brain

What you mean make it up just like you do?  Only in your case it isn't an unbiased brain is it.

To try and understand my part you might be  better trying to also understand your part, in terms of what you think magnetism actually is and why it works.

Don't just throw up crap and say it's because one pole attracts the other and one repels.

Tell me how it works.

Quote

You either put some unbiased effort into it from your owm brain

What you mean make it up just like you do?  Only in your case it isn't an unbiased brain is it.

Its weird.  Sceptimatic has made up a fantasy about how magnets work.  Thats fine, a vivid imagination is nice and he is welcome to make up whatever stories he wants.

But he cant seem to understand that unless he can adequately communicate his made up story, no one even knows what it is.  We cant use our "own brains" to comprehend his imagination unless he communicates it clearly. 

Quote from: Solarwind on March 19, 2021, 07:23:53 AM

Quote

You either put some unbiased effort into it from your owm brain

What you mean make it up just like you do?  Only in your case it isn't an unbiased brain is it.

Its weird.  Sceptimatic has made up a fantasy about how magnets work.  Thats fine, a vivid imagination is nice and he is welcome to make up whatever stories he wants.

But he cant seem to understand that unless he can adequately communicate his made up story, no one even knows what it is.  We cant use our "own brains" to comprehend his imagination unless he communicates it clearly.

I'm trying to communicate my story but I'm being shot down before each attempt by people who have no clue about it and also have no real clue about magnetism.

Jigsaws are jumbled up and need to be pieced together to gain a picture.
To get to that picture the pieces must start to be put together to see bits of it.


To do my jigsaw you have to start from the bottom and build it up but you'll never do it by also scattering  your own jigsaw pieces in with mine.
The sooner that's understood the sooner people will try to do mine.

In order to do a jigsaw you have to have all the pieces.  Until you provide us with any of the pieces of your jigsaw, how are we supposed make any sense of it?  It's like someone telling me that have made a jigsaw but not telling me where I can get hold of one to try it.

Air as you know (hopefully) is made up of the molecules of various gases.  Iron is a metal and not a gas.  Given that gases don't appear to have any magnetic properties, how the heck can magnetic fields be caused by the air? The pieces of your jigsaw presumably can be put together to give us a picture of exactly how magnetism is related to air or atmospheric pressure.  This jigsaw is of your own making but you are not giving us any of the pieces. That is all we want to know.

Quote from: sobchak on March 19, 2021, 07:49:49 AM

Quote from: Solarwind on March 19, 2021, 07:23:53 AM

Quote

You either put some unbiased effort into it from your owm brain

What you mean make it up just like you do?  Only in your case it isn't an unbiased brain is it.

Its weird.  Sceptimatic has made up a fantasy about how magnets work.  Thats fine, a vivid imagination is nice and he is welcome to make up whatever stories he wants.

But he cant seem to understand that unless he can adequately communicate his made up story, no one even knows what it is.  We cant use our "own brains" to comprehend his imagination unless he communicates it clearly.

I'm trying to communicate my story but I'm being shot down before each attempt by people who have no clue about it and also have no real clue about magnetism.

Jigsaws are jumbled up and need to be pieced together to gain a picture.
To get to that picture the pieces must start to be put together to see bits of it.


To do my jigsaw you have to start from the bottom and build it up but you'll never do it by also scattering  your own jigsaw pieces in with mine.
The sooner that's understood the sooner people will try to do mine.

I know you are trying, but it is not working.  And it is not other peoples fault for not being able to understand your imagination. 

You have a made up story that you want to tell other people.  Of course they are not going to accept your made up story as true, that would be ridiculous.  But at the least you want people to understand your story as you are trying to tell it. 

What is preventing you from clearly communicating your thought up story?

In order to do a jigsaw you have to have all the pieces.  Until you provide us with any of the pieces of your jigsaw, how are we supposed make any sense of it?  It's like someone telling me that have made a jigsaw but not telling me where I can get hold of one to try it.

Air as you know (hopefully) is made up of the molecules of various gases.  Iron is a metal and not a gas.  Given that gases don't appear to have any magnetic properties, how the heck can magnetic fields be caused by the air?  That is all we want to know.

Ok let's go through a few things.
Be the detective and log everything down for your jigsaw.


Aluminium does not conduct magnetism, right?
It doesn't act like a magnet.

However, if you wrap aluminium foil around a magnet you can still attract of repel another magnet.

Ok, so basing that on the aluminium foil covering one magnet, how does that magnet manage to attract or repel?

All I want to know from you is, how does that magnetism go through the foil.
If we want to get somewhere then I need you to be honest.

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 19, 2021, 07:53:43 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 19, 2021, 07:49:49 AM

Quote from: Solarwind on March 19, 2021, 07:23:53 AM

Quote

You either put some unbiased effort into it from your owm brain

What you mean make it up just like you do?  Only in your case it isn't an unbiased brain is it.

Its weird.  Sceptimatic has made up a fantasy about how magnets work.  Thats fine, a vivid imagination is nice and he is welcome to make up whatever stories he wants.

But he cant seem to understand that unless he can adequately communicate his made up story, no one even knows what it is.  We cant use our "own brains" to comprehend his imagination unless he communicates it clearly.

I'm trying to communicate my story but I'm being shot down before each attempt by people who have no clue about it and also have no real clue about magnetism.

Jigsaws are jumbled up and need to be pieced together to gain a picture.
To get to that picture the pieces must start to be put together to see bits of it.


To do my jigsaw you have to start from the bottom and build it up but you'll never do it by also scattering  your own jigsaw pieces in with mine.
The sooner that's understood the sooner people will try to do mine.

I know you are trying, but it is not working.  And it is not other peoples fault for not being able to understand your imagination. 

You have a made up story that you want to tell other people.  Of course they are not going to accept your made up story as true, that would be ridiculous.  But at the least you want people to understand your story as you are trying to tell it. 

What is preventing you from clearly communicating your thought up story?

I'm not asking people to accept it. If people want to know it then they have to try and understand it or at least try.
I'm not begging anyone to accept or understand it but if people ask and I answer and they say no joy then they need to find other ways of asking and I'll try and find better ways of explaining. And so on.

Anyone is free to treat me as nuts and just deck out.

ng to communicate my story but I'm being shot down before each attempt by people who have no clue about it and also have no real clue about magnetism.

No one is shooting you down. We are simply trying to find out more about your ideas. We haven't got a clue because you won't tell us. As for having no real clue about magnetism, that isn't true.  It's more a case of because you dismiss the conventional theories of magnetism, you think we haven't got any real clue because we do. 

Quote

ng to communicate my story but I'm being shot down before each attempt by people who have no clue about it and also have no real clue about magnetism.

No one is shooting you down. We are simply trying to find out more about your ideas. We haven't got a clue because you won't tell us. As for having no real clue about magnetism, that isn't true.  It's more a case of because you dismiss the conventional theories of magnetism, you think we haven't got any real clue because we do.

So tell me what it is, then.

If people want to know it then they have to try and understand it or at least try.

Once again, how can we understand if you won't explain anything? You say you have but I can't find those explanations.

Quote

If people want to know it then they have to try and understand it or at least try.

Once again, how can we understand if you won't explain anything? You say you have but I can't find those explanations.

I'm trying to tell you it's atmosphere but you people just immediately waft your hand in the air and call no joy.
It's not me that has all the explaining issues, it's you lot in thinking like you do.

I'm trying to tell you it's atmosphere but you people just immediately waft your hand in the air and call no joy.

But what properties of the atmosphere cause magnetism?  It is just gas and gas is not magnetic.. so how does the atmosphere create a magnetic field?

Quote from: sobchak on March 19, 2021, 08:14:55 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 19, 2021, 07:53:43 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 19, 2021, 07:49:49 AM

Quote from: Solarwind on March 19, 2021, 07:23:53 AM

Quote

You either put some unbiased effort into it from your owm brain

What you mean make it up just like you do?  Only in your case it isn't an unbiased brain is it.

Its weird.  Sceptimatic has made up a fantasy about how magnets work.  Thats fine, a vivid imagination is nice and he is welcome to make up whatever stories he wants.

But he cant seem to understand that unless he can adequately communicate his made up story, no one even knows what it is.  We cant use our "own brains" to comprehend his imagination unless he communicates it clearly.

I'm trying to communicate my story but I'm being shot down before each attempt by people who have no clue about it and also have no real clue about magnetism.

Jigsaws are jumbled up and need to be pieced together to gain a picture.
To get to that picture the pieces must start to be put together to see bits of it.


To do my jigsaw you have to start from the bottom and build it up but you'll never do it by also scattering  your own jigsaw pieces in with mine.
The sooner that's understood the sooner people will try to do mine.

I know you are trying, but it is not working.  And it is not other peoples fault for not being able to understand your imagination. 

You have a made up story that you want to tell other people.  Of course they are not going to accept your made up story as true, that would be ridiculous.  But at the least you want people to understand your story as you are trying to tell it. 

What is preventing you from clearly communicating your thought up story?

I'm not asking people to accept it. If people want to know it then they have to try and understand it or at least try.
I'm not begging anyone to accept or understand it but if people ask and I answer and they say no joy then they need to find other ways of asking and I'll try and find better ways of explaining. And so on.

Anyone is free to treat me as nuts and just deck out.

and that is what 99.999% of the people do.  They think you are nuts and deck out.  You are left dealing with the only people who want to listen to you, and almost all of them just want to argue with you. 

And you want to argue with them.  You don't really want to see the other jigsaw, you just want to throw your made up pieces into it and claim it doesn't work.

Quote

I'm trying to tell you it's atmosphere but you people just immediately waft your hand in the air and call no joy.

But what properties of the atmosphere cause magnetism?  It is just gas and gas is not magnetic.. so how does the atmosphere create a magnetic field?

If you sat in the bath full of water and placed your hand over the open plug hole, you feel a massive force...right?


From a distance from a plughole you feel no force. As you move closer you feel some force and closer still, more and more until your hand is pushed into the low pressure void.
If that pipe was straight under that plug hold you would trap air above the water going down and below your hand. An air lock....right?

If someone below was to try and push against that water to close that airlock, what would happen?
It would repel...right?


I'll see if you want to go with this and if not don't waste any more of your time.
Now think about a magnet.

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 19, 2021, 08:22:27 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 19, 2021, 08:14:55 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 19, 2021, 07:53:43 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 19, 2021, 07:49:49 AM

Quote from: Solarwind on March 19, 2021, 07:23:53 AM

Quote

You either put some unbiased effort into it from your owm brain

What you mean make it up just like you do?  Only in your case it isn't an unbiased brain is it.

Its weird.  Sceptimatic has made up a fantasy about how magnets work.  Thats fine, a vivid imagination is nice and he is welcome to make up whatever stories he wants.

But he cant seem to understand that unless he can adequately communicate his made up story, no one even knows what it is.  We cant use our "own brains" to comprehend his imagination unless he communicates it clearly.

I'm trying to communicate my story but I'm being shot down before each attempt by people who have no clue about it and also have no real clue about magnetism.

Jigsaws are jumbled up and need to be pieced together to gain a picture.
To get to that picture the pieces must start to be put together to see bits of it.


To do my jigsaw you have to start from the bottom and build it up but you'll never do it by also scattering  your own jigsaw pieces in with mine.
The sooner that's understood the sooner people will try to do mine.

I know you are trying, but it is not working.  And it is not other peoples fault for not being able to understand your imagination. 

You have a made up story that you want to tell other people.  Of course they are not going to accept your made up story as true, that would be ridiculous.  But at the least you want people to understand your story as you are trying to tell it. 

What is preventing you from clearly communicating your thought up story?

I'm not asking people to accept it. If people want to know it then they have to try and understand it or at least try.
I'm not begging anyone to accept or understand it but if people ask and I answer and they say no joy then they need to find other ways of asking and I'll try and find better ways of explaining. And so on.

Anyone is free to treat me as nuts and just deck out.

and that is what 99.999% of the people do.  They think you are nuts and deck out.  You are left dealing with the only people who want to listen to you, and almost all of them just want to argue with you. 

And you want to argue with them.  You don't really want to see the other jigsaw, you just want to throw your made up pieces into it and claim it doesn't work.

Then stay out of it and pm all the rest and advise them to. Job done....right?

Physics is not everybody's cup of tea.

Many in this thread are too busy playing apologist to earnestly engage in discussions about (theoretical) physics.

Scepti has been trying, by dialectic, to get you to recognize that "fields" are not defined and that magnetism is currently a mystery to all physicists as a result.  Einstein recognized that his "castle in the sky" (continuous fields / fields of any kind) may well be utter fiction towards the end of his life. We are NOT talking about wild or anti-conventional physics concepts here. 

Suppose for a second, that Scepti is right (benefit of the doubt, required to earnestly evaluate and not merely "debunk")

There is something VERY small, that is a component of our air, that is responsible for magnetism. There is an abundance of it on one side (pole) of a magnet and a deficiency on the other.

Putting aside that this is a vastly more sound conception than what we currently have (magic "fields" within and comprised of nothing), from a philosophical/physics perspective - the next step is to test the notion.

As I described earlier in this thread, no experimental validation or invalidation of this hypothesis is possible until we can measure and manipulate the IV (the proposed infintessimally small thing)

That should be the focus.  Physics does not take place within the mind, i.e. thought experiment is in no way experiment.

Then do it.  You say you have a "vastly more sound concept" - just go show it instead of talking about it.     The hypothesis presented is that there is something very small that is a component of air that is responsible for magnetism.

Just go show that air has an effect on magnetism. Remove almost all air from a chamber and you should remove almost all of this component.  The strength of a magnet should be somehow proportional to the concentration of air around it if there is a component of air that is responsible for magnetism. 

Should take half an afternoon?

And I simply think of "fields" as the abstraction of observable forces from arbitrary frames of reference.  No magic needed to explain them. 

Now the forces themselves ....   

Quote from: sobchak on March 19, 2021, 08:38:27 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 19, 2021, 08:22:27 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 19, 2021, 08:14:55 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 19, 2021, 07:53:43 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 19, 2021, 07:49:49 AM

Quote from: Solarwind on March 19, 2021, 07:23:53 AM

Quote

You either put some unbiased effort into it from your owm brain

What you mean make it up just like you do?  Only in your case it isn't an unbiased brain is it.

Its weird.  Sceptimatic has made up a fantasy about how magnets work.  Thats fine, a vivid imagination is nice and he is welcome to make up whatever stories he wants.

But he cant seem to understand that unless he can adequately communicate his made up story, no one even knows what it is.  We cant use our "own brains" to comprehend his imagination unless he communicates it clearly.

I'm trying to communicate my story but I'm being shot down before each attempt by people who have no clue about it and also have no real clue about magnetism.

Jigsaws are jumbled up and need to be pieced together to gain a picture.
To get to that picture the pieces must start to be put together to see bits of it.


To do my jigsaw you have to start from the bottom and build it up but you'll never do it by also scattering  your own jigsaw pieces in with mine.
The sooner that's understood the sooner people will try to do mine.

I know you are trying, but it is not working.  And it is not other peoples fault for not being able to understand your imagination. 

You have a made up story that you want to tell other people.  Of course they are not going to accept your made up story as true, that would be ridiculous.  But at the least you want people to understand your story as you are trying to tell it. 

What is preventing you from clearly communicating your thought up story?

I'm not asking people to accept it. If people want to know it then they have to try and understand it or at least try.
I'm not begging anyone to accept or understand it but if people ask and I answer and they say no joy then they need to find other ways of asking and I'll try and find better ways of explaining. And so on.

Anyone is free to treat me as nuts and just deck out.

and that is what 99.999% of the people do.  They think you are nuts and deck out.  You are left dealing with the only people who want to listen to you, and almost all of them just want to argue with you. 

And you want to argue with them.  You don't really want to see the other jigsaw, you just want to throw your made up pieces into it and claim it doesn't work.

Then stay out of it and pm all the rest and advise them to. Job done....right?

I mostly stay out of it, and if you would prefer me to never talk to you again I'm happy to oblige.

And if you enjoy bickering with others over your made up ideas, that's fine.  It seems like it is what you want. 

The others here also enjoy the bickering and going back and forth.  I do at times as well. 

There is nothing wrong with any of that, Im just saying if you want anyone to understand your made up stories, then what you are doing is not working.  If you dont care and just want to fling mud, bicker, and flame, just ignore this and me, dont respond, and carry on. 

I mostly stay out of it, and if you would prefer me to never talk to you again I'm happy to oblige.

I'll leave you to make that choice. I'm ok with whatever you decide.

And if you enjoy bickering with others over your made up ideas, that's fine.  It seems like it is what you want. 
The others here also enjoy the bickering and going back and forth.  I do at times as well.

The nature of the beast in conflicting ideas/thoughts.

 

There is nothing wrong with any of that, Im just saying if you want anyone to understand your made up stories, then what you are doing is not working.

If I can't understand stuff I'll ask for clarification. If I still can't I'll ask for simpler clarification. And so on and so on until I get a grasp.
If I end up not being able to with no further explanations, I'll simply put it on the backburner until such a time when it can be explained, if ever.

  If you dont care and just want to fling mud, bicker, and flame, just ignore this and me, dont respond, and carry on.

Bickering will always be a part of debate. If you can't hurt ridicule, then by a scratch, then nip. If a nip isn't having the desired effect, then slap and punch and pick up weapons...etc...etc.

You get my meaning.

If people don't follow a narrative then whatever force is in the armoury, must be used.