ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 17, 2021, 12:12:56 AM

If I spent my life believing in something that is put out as a theory, only to be told it's been found to be something else and the theory I held onto now holds no water....what have I actually learned up until that point?

If nothing else, you should have learned that it is a mistake to "believe" in a theory.  You can accept theories as provisionally true, you can think they are good or even great explanations for a set of facts, but dont "believe" in them.  Any theory, no matter how well it represents what we know, can be disproven with additional data.

Once you have learned that, you at least have a chance of understanding how science works.

Is gravity a theory?

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 16, 2021, 11:52:55 PM

Quote from: Unconvinced on February 16, 2021, 10:37:03 AM

Total rubbish.  Atmospheric (or any gas) pressure just doesn’t work like that. 

And it would be blindingly obvious that it can’t possibly work like that, if you had the first clue what you’re talking about.

You think it's magical gravity so I don't expect you to accept it.

Sceptimatic, just so you know - the reason people don't accept your musings is that they are actually incredibly bad abstractions of what we know.  They exclude known facts, they are non-predictive and non-quantitative, they can not be readily shared with others, they continually require ad-hoc addendums, and they have no demonstrated value to anyone other than yourself.

They are worst type of explanatory conjectures - confused, opaque, and completely without use. 

You are of course welcome to hold them, but you are doing yourself a delusional disservice pretending that the only reason people reject your ideas is because of their own held beliefs.

The failing is yours, not ours.  You should learn from that failure and try to grow, instead of simply failing again and again and again. 

Unless you like failure - in which case I say keep on with what you are doing!

I'm quite happy with my thoughts.
I'm more than happy to explain in my own way.
I'm also more than happy to play simple.

The major issue for people like you lot is, you don't understand how to play simple because your heads are crammed with mumbo jumbo that doesn't make real sense but is accepted as making sense because it would be embarrassing for you lot to dismiss it or question it in any simplified way.

Basically you do not hold any layman's mindset, because to do so would place you among the peasants of the intellectual circles you believe you are part of....and we can't be having that, can we?


I'm simple and I go about my stuff in my own way. I have no issue with being dug at or called names. I follow my own experiments, as simple as they may be.


As simple as that.

Quote from: sobchak on February 17, 2021, 01:36:20 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 16, 2021, 11:52:55 PM

Quote from: Unconvinced on February 16, 2021, 10:37:03 AM

Total rubbish.  Atmospheric (or any gas) pressure just doesn’t work like that. 

And it would be blindingly obvious that it can’t possibly work like that, if you had the first clue what you’re talking about.

You think it's magical gravity so I don't expect you to accept it.

Sceptimatic, just so you know - the reason people don't accept your musings is that they are actually incredibly bad abstractions of what we know.  They exclude known facts, they are non-predictive and non-quantitative, they can not be readily shared with others, they continually require ad-hoc addendums, and they have no demonstrated value to anyone other than yourself.

They are worst type of explanatory conjectures - confused, opaque, and completely without use. 

You are of course welcome to hold them, but you are doing yourself a delusional disservice pretending that the only reason people reject your ideas is because of their own held beliefs.

The failing is yours, not ours.  You should learn from that failure and try to grow, instead of simply failing again and again and again. 

Unless you like failure - in which case I say keep on with what you are doing!

I'm quite happy with my thoughts.
I'm more than happy to explain in my own way.
I'm also more than happy to play simple.

The major issue for people like you lot is, you don't understand how to play simple because your heads are crammed with mumbo jumbo that doesn't make real sense but is accepted as making sense because it would be embarrassing for you lot to dismiss it or question it in any simplified way.

Basically you do not hold any layman's mindset, because to do so would place you among the peasants of the intellectual circles you believe you are part of....and we can't be having that, can we?


I'm simple and I go about my stuff in my own way. I have no issue with being dug at or called names. I follow my own experiments, as simple as they may be.


As simple as that.

"People like you lot". I guess you're including me in this lot.

I wouldn't flatter yourself, sceptimatic, by elevating your mindset to that of the layman or the simpleton. Your mindset is primitive. Your mindset is even more primitive than than that found in Amazon jungle tribes.

In terms of benefits though, who is better off in life? You're not living amongst an Amazon jungle tribe are you? You're presumably living in Western society, using all of western society technology and comforts.

The reason none of the scientific concepts in this thread make no sense to you, is you are not interested in trying to understand them or evaluate their validity for yourself.

I see no benefits in devolving my own mindset to that of a primitive, when I live in Western society. Each to their own.

In terms of benefits though, who is better off in life? You're not living amongst an Amazon jungle tribe are you? You're presumably living in Western society, using all of western society technology and comforts.

I have no problem using the technology and comforts. It has no bearing on my thought process. I contribute to the very same comfort and technologies, yet I question other so called technologies and mindsets/theories.

The difference is, I don't just follow authority just for the sake of it. Something official does not mean something is truth.
You follow that path of believing everything from authority and question nothing and fair enough.

If you have your own proof of it then you are right in your thinking. If you don't, then you are no more up in the ranks of educated than others, in terms of that.

You can't drop down to my so called level because that would be you embarrassingly admitting to questioning authority in regards to this hypothetical stuff you are almost bullied into believing by simple peer pressure to do so.

Being a parrot does not mean anything other than you regurgitate what's put into the mind or merely mimicking.

Quote from: Unconvinced on February 16, 2021, 10:37:03 AM

Total rubbish.  Atmospheric (or any gas) pressure just doesn’t work like that. 

And it would be blindingly obvious that it can’t possibly work like that, if you had the first clue what you’re talking about.

You think it's magical gravity so I don't expect you to accept it.

I’m not even talking about gravity.

I reject it because I studied fluid mechanics.  I’ve designed, built and tested various gas and vacuum systems using the same equations (by hand or computer simulation), that other engineers use to design and everything else that uses them, from cars and planes to power stations and chemical plants.   The physics works.

Your version doesn’t work. I get that Flat Earthers don’t like the idea of gravity for some reason, but if you want to propose an alternative, you should be looking for a way that doesn’t break everything else.

That’s why I suggest you try actually learning how things work in the world outside your head.

The difference is, I don't just follow authority just for the sake of it. Something official does not mean something is truth.
You follow that path of believing everything from authority and question nothing and fair enough.

Define exactly what you mean by 'authority' and 'something official'.

Quote from: sobchak on February 17, 2021, 12:55:41 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 17, 2021, 12:12:56 AM

If I spent my life believing in something that is put out as a theory, only to be told it's been found to be something else and the theory I held onto now holds no water....what have I actually learned up until that point?

If nothing else, you should have learned that it is a mistake to "believe" in a theory.  You can accept theories as provisionally true, you can think they are good or even great explanations for a set of facts, but dont "believe" in them.  Any theory, no matter how well it represents what we know, can be disproven with additional data.

Once you have learned that, you at least have a chance of understanding how science works.

Is gravity a theory?

There are a number of gravitational theories, all of them attempt to describe physical abstractions of our collective set of observations in space and time. 

The major issue for people like you lot is, you don't understand how to play simple because your heads are crammed with mumbo jumbo that doesn't make real sense but is accepted as making sense because it would be embarrassing for you lot to dismiss it or question it in any simplified way.

I understand that is how you see it.  But it is an awfully self important viewpoint.  It is obvious that YOU do not understand the 'mumbo jumbo'.  But it does not mean others do not.  After all, you dont understand circles and triangles, simple geometry that many grade schoolers have already got a good hold of, so your inability to understand a concept should not necessarily mean that it is 'mumbo jumbo', right?

If you cant understand it, it means that YOU can not understand it.  I thought you wanted simple logic, not some convoluted reasoning that says that if you cant understand it, everyone else has been brainwashed into accepting nonsense and are embarrassed to admit it. 

The latter is pretty silly.  The former is simple logic.  You dont understand basic concepts.  Its okay, it doesnt make you less of a person or anything, and if you are well and happy that is all you can hope for.  But again, this is your failure, not others, and you might do better in your personal search for truth if you stop projecting shortcomings on everyone you talk to and instead look at your own limitations.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on February 17, 2021, 03:31:44 AM

In terms of benefits though, who is better off in life? You're not living amongst an Amazon jungle tribe are you? You're presumably living in Western society, using all of western society technology and comforts.

The difference is, I don't just follow authority just for the sake of it. Something official does not mean something is truth.
You follow that path of believing everything from authority and question nothing and fair enough.

We all have some level of scepticism, and I doubt anyone here is a blind follower.  Everyone here is blessed with a sense of skepticism and is able to evaluate at some level claims for their validity. 

For example, you believe, with absolutely no evidence, that there is massive worldwide mind control effort being perpetrated by some unknown people for some unknown goal, and what this group does is lie to everyone about the physics of the world and its shape (the latter for some bizarre reason that I have never understood).  There are whole industries set up to perpetuate this lie, and it involves millions of people silently in on the lie.  Somehow this nefarious group is able to provide all sorts of technological wonders, which we are led to believe are created using the engineering principles that have been spoon-fed to us, but this is really a trick of some sort (again, haven't been able to really figure this out either), as they engineering principles given are really just 'mumbo jumbo' that dont make sense. 

And...

One man has managed to figure it all out.  He has cracked the secrets of the world, the physics of how it works which are totally contrary to the lies we have been spoon fed.  He has figured out the sun and moon are just holograms, projected by a magic crystal tower at the north pole.   That we are encased in a breathing ice dome, and, swimming through some magical atmosphere with amazing properties.  This amazing genius spends his time on message boards arguing pointlessly. 

This is your belief. 

How should a rationally skeptical person respond to such a story.  I am highly skeptical to this.  And I should be, right? Whatever warning bells we have all have about being fed bullshit, which might ding softly as when someone (official or not) is generally trying claim something, are currently ringing like mad. 

Healthy skepticism.  We all have it here, despite your claims to the contrary. 

I agree.  If Sceptimatic was right in everything he claims then he would immediately rise in the rankings of famous scientists above the likes of Einstein and Newton.  He would effectively become the Einstein of the 21st century and the man who would be remembered for disproving gravity and showing that the Sun and Moon don't actually exist. That would cement his legacy as one of the all time greats in science.

Yet he wants things explained to him as if he was a child or a 'retard'.  Is it just me or does something not quite add up there?  Why would someone on the intellect level of Einstein at least want to be treated like a child?

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 16, 2021, 11:52:55 PM

Quote from: Unconvinced on February 16, 2021, 10:37:03 AM

Total rubbish.  Atmospheric (or any gas) pressure just doesn’t work like that. 

And it would be blindingly obvious that it can’t possibly work like that, if you had the first clue what you’re talking about.

You think it's magical gravity so I don't expect you to accept it.

I’m not even talking about gravity.

I reject it because I studied fluid mechanics.  I’ve designed, built and tested various gas and vacuum systems using the same equations (by hand or computer simulation), that other engineers use to design and everything else that uses them, from cars and planes to power stations and chemical plants.   The physics works.

Your version doesn’t work. I get that Flat Earthers don’t like the idea of gravity for some reason, but if you want to propose an alternative, you should be looking for a way that doesn’t break everything else.

That’s why I suggest you try actually learning how things work in the world outside your head.

Denpressure perfectly fits.
However, let's have some explanation for gravity.
Show me your gravity.
Tell me about this force that you're so sure of.

Quote

The difference is, I don't just follow authority just for the sake of it. Something official does not mean something is truth.
You follow that path of believing everything from authority and question nothing and fair enough.

Define exactly what you mean by 'authority' and 'something official'.

I'm sure you're up to speed on that.

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 17, 2021, 02:06:05 AM

Quote from: sobchak on February 17, 2021, 12:55:41 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 17, 2021, 12:12:56 AM

If I spent my life believing in something that is put out as a theory, only to be told it's been found to be something else and the theory I held onto now holds no water....what have I actually learned up until that point?

If nothing else, you should have learned that it is a mistake to "believe" in a theory.  You can accept theories as provisionally true, you can think they are good or even great explanations for a set of facts, but dont "believe" in them.  Any theory, no matter how well it represents what we know, can be disproven with additional data.

Once you have learned that, you at least have a chance of understanding how science works.

Is gravity a theory?

There are a number of gravitational theories, all of them attempt to describe physical abstractions of our collective set of observations in space and time.

So, gravity is just a theory, right?
It's not a fact...right?
If I'm wrong then explain why and show me.

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 17, 2021, 03:52:18 AM

Quote from: Smoke Machine on February 17, 2021, 03:31:44 AM

In terms of benefits though, who is better off in life? You're not living amongst an Amazon jungle tribe are you? You're presumably living in Western society, using all of western society technology and comforts.

The difference is, I don't just follow authority just for the sake of it. Something official does not mean something is truth.
You follow that path of believing everything from authority and question nothing and fair enough.

We all have some level of scepticism, and I doubt anyone here is a blind follower.  Everyone here is blessed with a sense of skepticism and is able to evaluate at some level claims for their validity. 

For example, you believe, with absolutely no evidence, that there is massive worldwide mind control effort being perpetrated by some unknown people for some unknown goal, and what this group does is lie to everyone about the physics of the world and its shape (the latter for some bizarre reason that I have never understood).  There are whole industries set up to perpetuate this lie, and it involves millions of people silently in on the lie.  Somehow this nefarious group is able to provide all sorts of technological wonders, which we are led to believe are created using the engineering principles that have been spoon-fed to us, but this is really a trick of some sort (again, haven't been able to really figure this out either), as they engineering principles given are really just 'mumbo jumbo' that dont make sense. 

And...

One man has managed to figure it all out.  He has cracked the secrets of the world, the physics of how it works which are totally contrary to the lies we have been spoon fed.  He has figured out the sun and moon are just holograms, projected by a magic crystal tower at the north pole.   That we are encased in a breathing ice dome, and, swimming through some magical atmosphere with amazing properties.  This amazing genius spends his time on message boards arguing pointlessly. 

This is your belief. 

How should a rationally skeptical person respond to such a story.  I am highly skeptical to this.  And I should be, right? Whatever warning bells we have all have about being fed bullshit, which might ding softly as when someone (official or not) is generally trying claim something, are currently ringing like mad. 

Healthy skepticism.  We all have it here, despite your claims to the contrary.

You lot do not possess any healthy scepticism.

I agree.  If Sceptimatic was right in everything he claims then he would immediately rise in the rankings of famous scientists above the likes of Einstein and Newton.  He would effectively become the Einstein of the 21st century and the man who would be remembered for disproving gravity and showing that the Sun and Moon don't actually exist. That would cement his legacy as one of the all time greats in science.

Yet he wants things explained to him as if he was a child or a 'retard'.  Is it just me or does something not quite add up there?  Why would someone on the intellect level of Einstein at least want to be treated like a child?

If you can't get your head around it then I shouldn't be baffled as to why...which I am not, to be fair. I understand that there's something not quite right with how you people go on.

This is why I simply ask for super simple explanations that a child can grasp.
You lot fail to do that but pretend you do.

You can argue about you thinking that I think I'm right on everything but you know I don't put that out......yet.....you still use that as some kind of battering ram.

The thing is, you lot are arguing as fact, things that are not factual.
Gravity being one such so called force.

I ask for simplicity and get the junk you throw at me.


Are you not capable of explaining your gravity in a simple way?

Quote from: Unconvinced on February 17, 2021, 04:26:40 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 16, 2021, 11:52:55 PM

Quote from: Unconvinced on February 16, 2021, 10:37:03 AM

Total rubbish.  Atmospheric (or any gas) pressure just doesn’t work like that. 

And it would be blindingly obvious that it can’t possibly work like that, if you had the first clue what you’re talking about.

You think it's magical gravity so I don't expect you to accept it.

I’m not even talking about gravity.

I reject it because I studied fluid mechanics.  I’ve designed, built and tested various gas and vacuum systems using the same equations (by hand or computer simulation), that other engineers use to design and everything else that uses them, from cars and planes to power stations and chemical plants.   The physics works.

Your version doesn’t work. I get that Flat Earthers don’t like the idea of gravity for some reason, but if you want to propose an alternative, you should be looking for a way that doesn’t break everything else.

That’s why I suggest you try actually learning how things work in the world outside your head.

Denpressure perfectly fits.
However, let's have some explanation for gravity.
Show me your gravity.
Tell me about this force that you're so sure of.

Only in your imagination.  In the real world, where we take measurements and do experiments to find out how things work, and use that knowledge to do useful things like generate electricity, it’s not even close.

Again, if you could be bothered to learn anything at all about the subject, you’d see how utterly  wrong it all is.

 

Are you not capable of explaining your gravity in a simple way?

I have described it in a simple way. I could get a lot more complex but it would be wasted on you. That you are not capable of understanding (or more correctly not accepting) my explanation is not my problem.  Regardless I'm certainly not going to be dictated to by you how I describe anything.

So, gravity is just a theory, right?

Absolutely.  A theory that you disagree with.  Just like quantum theory, thermodynamics, GTR, STR etc etc. Remember we as humans are not the inventors of nature.  Science is just our way of trying to understand and explain what we see and experience in nature. The whole of science is based on theories.  Just like your flat Earth 'theory'.  Although I wouldn't call that a theory.  Scientific theories are continuously being tested and re-tested to higher and higher levels of precision. If we can make predictions about the results of experiments before we do those experiments and then the actual results are consistent with the predicted results we can be pretty confident that we are thinking along the right lines wouldn't you say?

But until you come up with a better theory (and not just claims) then the theory of gravity will remain in place.  All you do is broadcast your disparaging remarks about mainstream science and claims about how it is all nonsense.  OK we get that.  So now spend more time on giving us some details that go deeper than just claims.

I'm sure you're up to speed on that.

NO.  That's why I asked. I'm sure you know what you mean by 'authority' so tell me.

The thing is, you lot are arguing as fact, things that are not factual.
Gravity being one such so called force.

How would you define what a force is?

sceppy,

quit with your diversions.
forget gravity.
let's assume it's wrong as you say it is.
you've presented an alternative.
so how does AIR, the very tangible thing that is around us, push down through the roof of my house, through the floor above me, through my hair, onto my head without pushing my hair flat?
just simply and simply and basically do that.

explain how by pushing down on something, it can magically push around other things.
simply and basically.
and if your answer is - "it does because it does" - then you'll have to admit your double standard to this so called "gravity"

Quote from: JackBlack on February 16, 2021, 12:12:59 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 16, 2021, 03:43:54 AM

Let's get this right. Correct me if I'm wrong and or there's something needs to be added.
I'm stood still (ish) and you go to push me. I resist that push from you. Is this inertia?

Or I'm stood there. do I have inertia at that point and if so, why?

You ALWAYS have inertia. This is why you don't just randomly start flying around all over the place, and why accelerating something takes a force.

Instead of thinking of it as a resistance to the push, think of it as the resistance to a change in motion which requires that push.

i.e. if you stand in front of a ball and try to move your hand or foot through it, you don't just move your hand or foot as if the object wasn't there with the object moving with your hand/foot. Instead when your hand/foot reaches the object you need to apply an additional force to accelerate it, with the force required based upon the mass of the object and how quickly you are accelerating it.

Likewise, if an object is thrown to you, it doesn't just hit you and stop. Instead you need to apply a force to stop it, and again, depending on the mass and how quickly you try to slow it down the force varies.


As for the why, that is what you need to explain with how your air causes inertia in complete defiance of the known laws of aerodynamics.

So, inertia is the obstacle to a force until it becomes resistant to that force?
Is this what you are saying?

No, again, it is quite simple, inertia is a resistance to a change in motion. It is simply stating that in order to accelerate something, you need to apply a force proportional to the product of the mass and acceleration.

That is what you need to try to explain.

Quote from: Unconvinced on February 16, 2021, 10:37:03 AM

Total rubbish.  Atmospheric (or any gas) pressure just doesn’t work like that. 

And it would be blindingly obvious that it can’t possibly work like that, if you had the first clue what you’re talking about.

You think it's magical gravity so I don't expect you to accept it.

Gravity has nothing to do with accepting how air pressure works.
Air pressure is very well understood.
Air pressure applies a force proportional to the area and pressure. F=PA.
This is not hard to understand.

When immersed in a medium, pressure is typically acting from all around.
The net force is then based upon a pressure gradient, with the pressure itself just acting to compress the object (not magically crush it down).
For something like the atmosphere, this pressure gradient typically pushes upwards.

But if you move something through the air this compresses the air in front and decompresses it behind, causing a pressure gradient to push it backwards.
This is based upon how fast it is moving and the aerodynamics of the object, and completely independent of the mass of the object.

The only connected to gravity any of that had is in explaining the pressure gradient that is observed in the atmosphere.

Try and think of something else.

He did. The same thing you have been struggling with for eons.
Why does the apple fall when in mid-air, with the air all around?

Most of your theoretical science acceptance, is like a religion.

Just because your FE BS is like a religion doesn't make actual science like a religion.
The science we are talking about is nothing like a religion as it is based upon actual evidence and updates as new evidence comes to light.

It also has explanatory power.

Stacking and anything within it being crushed by it, by their own displacement of it, like I already told you.

That is just saying pressure is there. It isn't explaining where it comes from.

It's got nothing to do with any irrational hatred of physics from my side. I don't believe gravity exists so I can hardly hate it.

It sure seems to.
You hate it so much you pretend it isn't real.
You hate it so much you pretend it is just a magical story.
You hate it so much you pretend the only reason people follow it is indoctrination.

You cannot provide any reason at all for why it is wrong, or an alternative explanation to all the evidence showing it is real.

The major issue for people like you lot is, you don't understand how to play simple

But we can, as we have done so repeatedly to show your claims make no sense.
For example, playing simple, you can't explain the pressure gradient in the atmosphere, playing simple you can't explain why things all, playing simple you can't explain why the force pushing in a stack of objects increases as you go down the stack, playing simple you can't explain why the push down is proportional to mass rather than to pressure and area.

Denpressure perfectly fits.

Only in your delusional fantasies.
The only thing you have been able to "explain" with it is why an object sitting on the ground has weight.
You cannot explain why this doesn't push an object into a wall or a roof, nor why things fall in mid air. Nor can you explain the pressure gradient in the atmosphere.
It doesn't fit at all.

You lot do not possess any healthy scepticism.

You clearly don't understand what healthy scepticism is.
As a hint, it isn't repeatedly dismissing things you hate, and claiming it is nonsense when you are unable to show any fault with it.

Are you not capable of explaining your gravity in a simple way?

It has been explained to you simply, and you ignored it.

Quote from: sobchak on February 17, 2021, 05:46:40 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 17, 2021, 02:06:05 AM

Quote from: sobchak on February 17, 2021, 12:55:41 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 17, 2021, 12:12:56 AM

If I spent my life believing in something that is put out as a theory, only to be told it's been found to be something else and the theory I held onto now holds no water....what have I actually learned up until that point?

If nothing else, you should have learned that it is a mistake to "believe" in a theory.  You can accept theories as provisionally true, you can think they are good or even great explanations for a set of facts, but dont "believe" in them.  Any theory, no matter how well it represents what we know, can be disproven with additional data.

Once you have learned that, you at least have a chance of understanding how science works.

Is gravity a theory?

There are a number of gravitational theories, all of them attempt to describe physical abstractions of our collective set of observations in space and time.

So, gravity is just a theory, right?
It's not a fact...right?
If I'm wrong then explain why and show me.

Yep.  It is a theory.  A generalized explanation of a set of facts.  And like all abstractions of observations, it remains open to falsification in one form or another if new contradictory observations come to light.

Facts are facts.  Theories explain them. Good theories both explain facts, and make new testable hypotheses which then strengthen or weaken the support for the theory.

Quote from: sobchak on February 17, 2021, 06:20:44 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 17, 2021, 03:52:18 AM

Quote from: Smoke Machine on February 17, 2021, 03:31:44 AM

In terms of benefits though, who is better off in life? You're not living amongst an Amazon jungle tribe are you? You're presumably living in Western society, using all of western society technology and comforts.

The difference is, I don't just follow authority just for the sake of it. Something official does not mean something is truth.
You follow that path of believing everything from authority and question nothing and fair enough.

We all have some level of scepticism, and I doubt anyone here is a blind follower.  Everyone here is blessed with a sense of skepticism and is able to evaluate at some level claims for their validity. 

For example, you believe, with absolutely no evidence, that there is massive worldwide mind control effort being perpetrated by some unknown people for some unknown goal, and what this group does is lie to everyone about the physics of the world and its shape (the latter for some bizarre reason that I have never understood).  There are whole industries set up to perpetuate this lie, and it involves millions of people silently in on the lie.  Somehow this nefarious group is able to provide all sorts of technological wonders, which we are led to believe are created using the engineering principles that have been spoon-fed to us, but this is really a trick of some sort (again, haven't been able to really figure this out either), as they engineering principles given are really just 'mumbo jumbo' that dont make sense. 

And...

One man has managed to figure it all out.  He has cracked the secrets of the world, the physics of how it works which are totally contrary to the lies we have been spoon fed.  He has figured out the sun and moon are just holograms, projected by a magic crystal tower at the north pole.   That we are encased in a breathing ice dome, and, swimming through some magical atmosphere with amazing properties.  This amazing genius spends his time on message boards arguing pointlessly. 

This is your belief. 

How should a rationally skeptical person respond to such a story.  I am highly skeptical to this.  And I should be, right? Whatever warning bells we have all have about being fed bullshit, which might ding softly as when someone (official or not) is generally trying claim something, are currently ringing like mad. 

Healthy skepticism.  We all have it here, despite your claims to the contrary.

You lot do not possess any healthy scepticism.

I’m skeptical of your claim.

I’m also skeptical of your claim of massive worldwide conspiracies to hide the shape of the earth as well as your brilliance in single handed cracking the secrets of the world around us.

I think that is a demonstration of healthy skepticism, don’t you?

Quote from: Smoke Machine on February 17, 2021, 03:31:44 AM

In terms of benefits though, who is better off in life? You're not living amongst an Amazon jungle tribe are you? You're presumably living in Western society, using all of western society technology and comforts.

I have no problem using the technology and comforts. It has no bearing on my thought process. I contribute to the very same comfort and technologies, yet I question other so called technologies and mindsets/theories.

The difference is, I don't just follow authority just for the sake of it. Something official does not mean something is truth.
You follow that path of believing everything from authority and question nothing and fair enough.

If you have your own proof of it then you are right in your thinking. If you don't, then you are no more up in the ranks of educated than others, in terms of that.

You can't drop down to my so called level because that would be you embarrassingly admitting to questioning authority in regards to this hypothetical stuff you are almost bullied into believing by simple peer pressure to do so.

Being a parrot does not mean anything other than you regurgitate what's put into the mind or merely mimicking.

Do you have a copyright on the denpressure theory? I hope not, because that theory is holier than my steamed vegetables strainer.

But I digress. The reason I can't drop down to your level, is because I take life seriously. I don't live on fantasy island like you do.

For instance, if the authorities were to warn me that the international space station had upset the orbit of a large satellite, and said large satellite was headed towards earth with a trajectory likely to hit my house before fully burning up, I would appropriately evacuate my house and help evacuate all houses within a radius of my house.

You on the other hand, if you were to receive the same warning, being a person who does not believe in outer space or satellites, you would scoff, and continue relaxing on your sofa in your lounge room, eating your potato chips.

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 17, 2021, 09:05:35 AM

So, gravity is just a theory, right?
It's not a fact...right?
If I'm wrong then explain why and show me.

Yep.  It is a theory.  A generalized explanation of a set of facts.  And like all abstractions of observations, it remains open to falsification in one form or another if new contradictory observations come to light.

Facts are facts.  Theories explain them. Good theories both explain facts, and make new testable hypotheses which then strengthen or weaken the support for the theory.

I would say something slightly different.
Gravity is a physical phenomenon which is well observed and documented.
Newton's theory of gravity and Einstein's general relativity (as well as contributions from others) and theories to explain this observed physical phenomenon and allow us to make predictions based upon it.

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 17, 2021, 09:03:53 AM

Quote from: Unconvinced on February 17, 2021, 04:26:40 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 16, 2021, 11:52:55 PM

Quote from: Unconvinced on February 16, 2021, 10:37:03 AM

Total rubbish.  Atmospheric (or any gas) pressure just doesn’t work like that. 

And it would be blindingly obvious that it can’t possibly work like that, if you had the first clue what you’re talking about.

You think it's magical gravity so I don't expect you to accept it.

I’m not even talking about gravity.

I reject it because I studied fluid mechanics.  I’ve designed, built and tested various gas and vacuum systems using the same equations (by hand or computer simulation), that other engineers use to design and everything else that uses them, from cars and planes to power stations and chemical plants.   The physics works.

Your version doesn’t work. I get that Flat Earthers don’t like the idea of gravity for some reason, but if you want to propose an alternative, you should be looking for a way that doesn’t break everything else.

That’s why I suggest you try actually learning how things work in the world outside your head.

Denpressure perfectly fits.
However, let's have some explanation for gravity.
Show me your gravity.
Tell me about this force that you're so sure of.

Only in your imagination.  In the real world, where we take measurements and do experiments to find out how things work, and use that knowledge to do useful things like generate electricity, it’s not even close.

Again, if you could be bothered to learn anything at all about the subject, you’d see how utterly  wrong it all is.

There's no issue with anything happening under denpressure. It works as we can see.
The only issue is, how we are told stuff works. Gravity in use is a nonsense.
You don't know what it is but argue for it.

Quote

So, gravity is just a theory, right?

Absolutely.  A theory that you disagree with.

Yep and a theory you agree with without knowing what it is.

Just like quantum theory, thermodynamics, GTR, STR etc etc. Remember we as humans are not the inventors of nature.

Same things. You have no clue but argue it because you follow that train of thought. You mimic it. You parrot it without actually knowing what it really is.

Science is just our way of trying to understand and explain what we see and experience in nature.

Yep and showing it to be a reality or close to one, is key. Many things are and many are not. It's the latter I'm arguing about.

The whole of science is based on theories.  Just like your flat Earth 'theory'.
 Although I wouldn't call that a theory.

Course you wouldn't call it a theory. You're hell bent on global nonsense so I wouldn't expect you to.

Scientific theories are continuously being tested and re-tested to higher and higher levels of precision.

That depends on what is real scientific or pseudo...or simply blatant bull.

If we can make predictions about the results of experiments before we do those experiments and then the actual results are consistent with the predicted results we can be pretty confident that we are thinking along the right lines wouldn't you say?

It depends on what is postulated.

But until you come up with a better theory (and not just claims) then the theory of gravity will remain in place.

Gravity will always remain in place until such time where a forced change may come into force, like some natural phenomenon that opens it up to massive question.
Anything I say is relevant to me and anyone who wants to try and understand it against the nonsense we've been bullied into accepting all of our lives.

  All you do is broadcast your disparaging remarks about mainstream science and claims about how it is all nonsense.

Ditto.

  OK we get that.  So now spend more time on giving us some details that go deeper than just claims.

I'm giving out what I feel. What you take from it is of no concern to me.

How would you define what a force is?

Anything that creates or is part of, friction.

sceppy,

quit with your diversions.
forget gravity.
let's assume it's wrong as you say it is.
you've presented an alternative.
so how does AIR, the very tangible thing that is around us, push down through the roof of my house, through the floor above me, through my hair, onto my head without pushing my hair flat?
just simply and simply and basically do that.

explain how by pushing down on something, it can magically push around other things.
simply and basically.
and if your answer is - "it does because it does" - then you'll have to admit your double standard to this so called "gravity"

I've told you so many times.
I'm now trying you to the bottom of a big NASA pool they use for faking space.
Ok, now I ask you why you feel pressure all around you but your hair seems to wave about.

Let's see where you go with this and if you're capable of thinking in simple terms, you may be able to understand how atmosphere also works.

No, again, it is quite simple, inertia is a resistance to a change in motion. It is simply stating that in order to accelerate something, you need to apply a force proportional to the product of the mass and acceleration.

That is what you need to try to explain.

You apply a force to a mass that resists your force...correct?
For your force to be used to accelerate that mass, something must also resist your force in order for you to do that.
The ground or even water if you were in water and pushing against an object.
So basically inertia is merely resistance.

The resist a change in motion means nothing. It's just resistance.
If inertia is resistance then I have no issue with inertia.

As for me explaining. I can't explain inertia other than to say it is resistance, by what you're putting out.

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 16, 2021, 11:52:55 PM

Quote from: Unconvinced on February 16, 2021, 10:37:03 AM

Total rubbish.  Atmospheric (or any gas) pressure just doesn’t work like that. 

And it would be blindingly obvious that it can’t possibly work like that, if you had the first clue what you’re talking about.

You think it's magical gravity so I don't expect you to accept it.

Gravity has nothing to do with accepting how air pressure works.
Air pressure is very well understood.
Air pressure applies a force proportional to the area and pressure. F=PA.
This is not hard to understand.

Clearly it is hard to understand because you are struggling with it by adding in your fictional gravity.

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 17, 2021, 09:05:35 AM

Quote from: sobchak on February 17, 2021, 05:46:40 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 17, 2021, 02:06:05 AM

Quote from: sobchak on February 17, 2021, 12:55:41 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 17, 2021, 12:12:56 AM

If I spent my life believing in something that is put out as a theory, only to be told it's been found to be something else and the theory I held onto now holds no water....what have I actually learned up until that point?

If nothing else, you should have learned that it is a mistake to "believe" in a theory.  You can accept theories as provisionally true, you can think they are good or even great explanations for a set of facts, but dont "believe" in them.  Any theory, no matter how well it represents what we know, can be disproven with additional data.

Once you have learned that, you at least have a chance of understanding how science works.

Is gravity a theory?

There are a number of gravitational theories, all of them attempt to describe physical abstractions of our collective set of observations in space and time.

So, gravity is just a theory, right?
It's not a fact...right?
If I'm wrong then explain why and show me.

Yep.  It is a theory.  A generalized explanation of a set of facts.  And like all abstractions of observations, it remains open to falsification in one form or another if new contradictory observations come to light.

Facts are facts.  Theories explain them. Good theories both explain facts, and make new testable hypotheses which then strengthen or weaken the support for the theory.

It's a theory, not a fact.