Existence of God

Here is my conclusion about the creator after watching a debate between theists and atheist. 

1 - Science fails beyond space and time as there is no end in sight to creator of creation or causality till we reach to the point of nothing which doesn’t require any space and time.

2- Science doesn't know the creator (whoever he/she/it is but exists) of space and time or
matter.

3 - That he/she/it is nothing (existence of Allah according to his attributes in Quran) relative to
Muslims and just nothing relative to atheists or non-believers.

4- That nothing can exist w/o space and time.

5- Nothing by definition doesn’t depend upon causality as he/she/it himself/herself/itself is the creator of cause

6-So just think, is it difficult for Nothing (Allah or Creator) in 1, 2 and 3 to intend (mentioned in Quran) to create space and time?

It’s not hard to understand all above but needs little bit concentration to recognise/know (witness) Allah and last Messenger via Quran.

If God is nothing, then it can do only nothing.  So no,not create.

So religion is the worship of nothing, got it.

So religion is the worship of nothing, got it.

If read read my post it says "Nothing relative us or our frame of reference". There might be other frames which are beyond our cognisance.

I don’t know if there is a God.

If there is, there’s probably about as much chance of any of us primitive monkey brains understanding the first thing about “His Plan” as a microbe has of understanding quantum physics.

Everyone can believe what they want, but they might as well stop bickering about who’s right and trying to impose their ideas on others.

Who created the creator?

I don’t know if there is a God.

If there is, there’s probably about as much chance of any of us primitive monkey brains understanding the first thing about “His Plan” as a microbe has of understanding quantum physics.

Everyone can believe what they want, but they might as well stop bickering about who’s right and trying to impose their ideas on others.

Not only Abrahamic  but also other religion like Sikhism, Hinduism etc also believe in one God who is the creator. My question is about the existence of God, not its imposition. Quran 2:256 - "There is no force in the acceptance of this religion" so don't worry. I don't know about the other religions.

Who created the creator?

I would suggest reading my question again but carefully.

If God is nothing, then it can do only nothing.  So no,not create.

Nothing relative to this world for testifying reasons but not to the unseen world.

Quote from: Lorddave on January 22, 2025, 12:00:34 AM

If God is nothing, then it can do only nothing.  So no,not create.

Nothing relative to this world for testifying reasons but not to the unseen world.

Nothing isn't relative, it's absolute.

If God is nothing, then it can do only nothing.  So no,not create.

Correct.

So follow simple logic:
1. Nothing cannot create anything.
2. For there to be anything, something must exist to create it. E.g. a canoe cannot appear in a forest, trees need seeds, chickens need eggs.
3. If nothing surrounds something, nothing else could create something. That means this something must always have existed, because there is nothing there to make it.
4. Something needs something to make everything. You have to have wood to create a boat. So everything made is not truly nothing, but nothing reworked as a raw material for something.
5. If then we replace God with something, the material used for God to create could not have truly been nothing.

Quote from: E E K on January 25, 2025, 07:17:45 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on January 22, 2025, 12:00:34 AM

If God is nothing, then it can do only nothing.  So no,not create.

Nothing relative to this world for testifying reasons but not to the unseen world.

Nothing isn't relative, it's absolute.

As said that nothing is relative to our space and time. however it doesn't mean He doesn't exist relative to the unseen world and don't forget He His own world too relative to himself which is beyond our understanding because our brain thinking is limited to our universe. If He is a matter like us then He is not God.

Have you been to unseen world/ a world other than our world.
If not then you can't say unseen world doesn't exists and the God too. Only you can say you don't know if the unseen world exists or not.

Nowhere in Quran does it say God is formless!!! Here is point of understanding God. No one has been to the unseen world therefore one can only say one doesn't know if God has form instead of claiming God doesn’t exists relative to the unseen world therefore it is wrong to say God doesn't have any form. Why would one think only matter would be existed in all the unseen worlds. Unseen worlds may have form other than matter. Is it difficult for God who is the creator of cause via which He can make us speak, feel, hear, see etc for Him to change His FORM from nothingness to parts of human body (not depend upon his creation) mentioned in Quran? No. He can do anything.

God the Father (Love) always existed and will always exist because HE is existence! And because He Loves His creation He communicates with us all the time through us! Like he did with Jesus Christ! But some assholes at the time who had a week connection with Love, and hated this consciousness and couldn't enjoy life rejected Him so they crucified Him on the Cross. But He let them do it. He died for our sins. So that we know the TRUTH and be SAVED!   

We are of this Love so we are forever! Either in this consciousness and in this body (if we are not a dumbass) , or in afterlife if the body dies (if we are a dumbass).

Why are biological machines trying to make all this complicated ffs! This is not just faith, and belief, its fakin commonsense, and logical!


By the way Islam. Quran. is not Christian heresy or apostasy like so called "Judaism" or Gnosticism! Because Islam. Quran. Allah. is of the Devil! "Muslims" are deceived by the Devil!

 

Quote from: Lorddave on January 31, 2025, 02:42:13 AM

Quote from: E E K on January 25, 2025, 07:17:45 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on January 22, 2025, 12:00:34 AM

If God is nothing, then it can do only nothing.  So no,not create.

Nothing relative to this world for testifying reasons but not to the unseen world.

Nothing isn't relative, it's absolute.

As said that nothing is relative to our space and time. however it doesn't mean He doesn't exist relative to the unseen world and don't forget He His own world too relative to himself which is beyond our understanding because our brain thinking is limited to our universe. If He is a matter like us then He is not God.

Have you been to unseen world/ a world other than our world.
If not then you can't say unseen world doesn't exists and the God too. Only you can say you don't know if the unseen world exists or not.

Nowhere in Quran does it say God is formless!!! Here is point of understanding God. No one has been to the unseen world therefore one can only say one doesn't know if God has form instead of claiming God doesn’t exists relative to the unseen world therefore it is wrong to say God doesn't have any form. Why would one think only matter would be existed in all the unseen worlds. Unseen worlds may have form other than matter. Is it difficult for God who is the creator of cause via which He can make us speak, feel, hear, see etc for Him to change His FORM from nothingness to parts of human body (not depend upon his creation) mentioned in Quran? No. He can do anything.

Those who fight the existence of God (including Muslims!) do so because they believe they have a better idea of reality, or that God is a tyrant and they don't want any part of the afterlife.

The classical Christian Heaven/Hell dichotomy is greatly responsible for the second. Let me let you in on a little secret. The world Hell does not exist in the original translation of the Bible. The original word was Sheol, which just meant a sorta "underworld afterlife" as best they could imagine from thinking of life when buried underground. Think of the Depths in TOTK, but edit out the gloom and monsters, and you probably have a better notion than "flames and torture." So, where does the word Hell come from? Well, from Norse mythology! Unfortunately for that concept, Helheim (the land of Hel, the goddess) is not a fire and brimstone land either. That's Muspelheim, the world made before the nine realms. So basically, a misunderstood borrowed idea. Not a Bliblical concept.
The actual idea is that Jesus overcame death and prepared an afterlife for us. "But, that's just for Christians! Everyone else is doomed!"
WHO
SAYS?
There is a great theological debate about conditional forgiveness (and thus salvation) and unconditional salvation. But if none of us are worthy, as the text says is so, than none of us can achieve salvation without the help of Jesus. The Jesus's death on the cross gave salvation to all. Priests telling you that you are going to hell if you masturbate too much or get a tattoo or have lots of gay sex? Isn't that up to Jesus? In an era where Trump wants to separate being into worthies and unworthies, it is important to remember that this is a teaching of the world. This is what atheism wants to convince you. But "nothing can separate us from the love of God." Not you unbelief, Trump's laws, not nothing. In fact, suffering on this Earth (thank you Trump for giving hardship to transgender people and immigrants) serves to build character. The atheist outlook only gives you a miserable outlook with no sense of hope all your life.

Now, as to the idea that another religion can do it better, well that's up to another religion (I'm not one that believes in Christian supremacy). But Islam kinda fails, as it straight up teaches "Follow the rules or go to our hell." And Muslim hell is shit. A tree that you eat the fruit of that is filled with horrible spikes. As long as religion is about control and not salvation, it doesn't do its intended job. It's just a con job.

The most significant problem in texts that are assumed to be religious is that they force the reader to make a choice between the dilemma of whether a creator is necessary or whether everything is random.

If God does not exist, then who created this universe? This is the most crucial question of the greatest dilemma. But if there is a creator, or if something is required to create everything, does this entity have to be God?

The concept of singularity is currently the most valid philosophical state in the universe, and according to this, everyone has, in a way, equally created the universe. If existence is a whole, none of us can be independent of what you define as God.

Another view is that everything is a dream, and in this case, there is unity in the dream, and everything in that dream belongs to the dreamer.

If there is a creator, we cannot separate it from ourselves. The main purpose of the debates on atheism or theism, and the reason this issue is highlighted from a simulationist's perspective, is to prevent us from seeing the bigger picture by focusing on whether the idea of creation is right or wrong.

If this is a dream, it must belong to me, and in this case, it does not matter whether a God exists here or not. Because God does not interfere with dreams. We can explain the strange situations we are experiencing in this world in this way. We might see some events as evidence of God's existence, and some events as evidence of His absence. However, no event in this world or anything we will experience constitutes evidence for God's existence or absence. Because essentially, this world has no reality. Remember the double-slit experiment. Remember the shadow errors of the sun and the moon. If this were a real world, the moon could never appear as a full moon. Think about this. This is a dream. And worse, it has turned into a nightmare due to the malice, hatred, and anger of the simulationist.

God has no influence in this simulation. Whether He exists or not is completely irrelevant, and it is impossible to detect this in this simulation, in this world of lies and fantasies.

The most significant problem in texts that are assumed to be religious is that they force the reader to make a choice between the dilemma of whether a creator is necessary or whether everything is random. If God does not exist, then who created this universe? This is the most crucial question of the greatest dilemma. But if there is a creator, or if something is required to create everything, does this entity have to be God?

You are right!! we have to make a choice b/t the two as there is no other alternative. But science fails beyond space and time as there is no end in sight to creator of creation or causality till we reach to the point of nothing which doesn’t require any space and time. At least theology tells us there may be creator.

The concept of singularity is currently the most valid philosophical state in the universe, and according to this, everyone has, in a way, equally created the universe. If existence is a whole, none of us can be independent of what you define as God.

For singularity i would suggest reading the following link
Talk:Time dilation/Archive 2018 - Wikipedia

BTW - Anything divided by zero is undefined.

Another view is that everything is a dream, and in this case, there is unity in the dream, and everything in that dream belongs to the dreamer.

This irrelevant IMPOV.

If there is a creator, we cannot separate it from ourselves. The main purpose of the debates on atheism or theism, and the reason this issue is highlighted from a simulationist's perspective, is to prevent us from seeing the bigger picture by focusing on whether the idea of creation is right or wrong.

Again science doesn't have the answer for this. Our being testifying is the answer in theology which may not be satisfactory for atheist who wants looking for better answer .

You are far from understanding me. Clearly, we are speaking on different levels.
When I say that we are left between creation and science, I emphasize that they serve the same purpose, not that they are alternatives to each other.

Both claim that in the beginning, there was nothing. One says the Big Bang occurred, the other says God created. However, the third possibility, or rather the true one, is different and more meaningful than these two. Continuity. This is the most fundamental principle of Singularity and accepts that everything has always existed. This is indeed the case in this universe. There is no rule in physics, chemistry, or biology that ever states that matter decreases or increases. Matter always exists, it just transforms. No element increases or decreases, it just combines or separates with other substances. This means everything has always existed, and that is what we call continuity. This is the most important argument of the Singularity idea. We have always been here, and we always will be. Without needing a scientific event or a god. Those who claim to be scientists say that somehow everything came into existence from nothing, and they contradict the most fundamental scientific facts. Religious leaders say everything in the universe is a reflection and part of God. But they contradict the fact that nothing can increase or decrease, and say God created the universe. Did God create Himself? Of course not. He has always been. He is in everyone. God is everything. There can be no other possibility. If God creates something new, it will still be a part of Himself and will still be God. Nothing that is God can come from nothing or disappear while existing. Because God cannot disappear. God is everyone and everything. The elements in your body are the oldest elements of this world. They did not cease to exist or come from nothing. Every element in you is as old as God.

The need for people to believe in a separate god stems from a lack of self-confidence or intellectual deficiency. It is inevitable that people with an intelligence level above a certain threshold will recognize this truth.

PS: donot split my post.

Because God does not interfere with dreams

Where did you get that idea? God will do as he deems fit.

You are also unjust in who you have ignored. You deem me worse than JackBlack or Jura, though they do not have anything in common with you, neither being religious nor flat Earthers, because I do not abide by your Islamic garbage, nor humor your assessment that Muslims are just victims of the West.

God said, "I Am Who I Am," and Islam instead made Jesus a prophet who allowed another man to die in his place. They did not accept I Am as I Am. I also say "I am who I am," but you think that I should conform to some standards of yours or be blocked.

You are far from understanding me. Clearly, we are speaking on different levels.
When I say that we are left between creation and science, I emphasize that they serve the same purpose, not that they are alternatives to each other.

Both claim that in the beginning, there was nothing. One says the Big Bang occurred, the other says God created. However, the third possibility, or rather the true one, is different and more meaningful than these two. Continuity. This is the most fundamental principle of Singularity and accepts that everything has always existed. This is indeed the case in this universe. There is no rule in physics, chemistry, or biology that ever states that matter decreases or increases. Matter always exists, it just transforms. No element increases or decreases, it just combines or separates with other substances. This means everything has always existed, and that is what we call continuity. This is the most important argument of the Singularity idea. We have always been here, and we always will be. Without needing a scientific event or a god. Those who claim to be scientists say that somehow everything came into existence from nothing, and they contradict the most fundamental scientific facts. Religious leaders say everything in the universe is a reflection and part of God. But they contradict the fact that nothing can increase or decrease, and say God created the universe. Did God create Himself? Of course not. He has always been. He is in everyone. God is everything. There can be no other possibility. If God creates something new, it will still be a part of Himself and will still be God. Nothing that is God can come from nothing or disappear while existing. Because God cannot disappear. God is everyone and everything. The elements in your body are the oldest elements of this world. They did not cease to exist or come from nothing. Every element in you is as old as God.

The need for people to believe in a separate god stems from a lack of self-confidence or intellectual deficiency. It is inevitable that people with an intelligence level above a certain threshold will recognize this truth.

PS: donot split my post.

Your idea of continuity is not new. Atheists back in the past believe that universe/ space-time was eternal however this notion was later on rejected by even the modern day atheists. There must be must be starting point.

Similarly, in Hinduism, the concept of God, often referred to as "Brahman,". Brahman is the ultimate reality. If God creates something new, it will still be a part of Himself and will still be God, There is no separation between the creator and creation. Are you referring me to this concept of Hinduism. If everything is god then they must have same characteristics. Everything would respect one another.

Your post doesn't answer the real question of who is the creator of god/matter as you mentioned? 

Quote from: wise on February 03, 2025, 09:26:08 AM

You are far from understanding me. Clearly, we are speaking on different levels.
When I say that we are left between creation and science, I emphasize that they serve the same purpose, not that they are alternatives to each other.

Both claim that in the beginning, there was nothing. One says the Big Bang occurred, the other says God created. However, the third possibility, or rather the true one, is different and more meaningful than these two. Continuity. This is the most fundamental principle of Singularity and accepts that everything has always existed. This is indeed the case in this universe. There is no rule in physics, chemistry, or biology that ever states that matter decreases or increases. Matter always exists, it just transforms. No element increases or decreases, it just combines or separates with other substances. This means everything has always existed, and that is what we call continuity. This is the most important argument of the Singularity idea. We have always been here, and we always will be. Without needing a scientific event or a god. Those who claim to be scientists say that somehow everything came into existence from nothing, and they contradict the most fundamental scientific facts. Religious leaders say everything in the universe is a reflection and part of God. But they contradict the fact that nothing can increase or decrease, and say God created the universe. Did God create Himself? Of course not. He has always been. He is in everyone. God is everything. There can be no other possibility. If God creates something new, it will still be a part of Himself and will still be God. Nothing that is God can come from nothing or disappear while existing. Because God cannot disappear. God is everyone and everything. The elements in your body are the oldest elements of this world. They did not cease to exist or come from nothing. Every element in you is as old as God.

The need for people to believe in a separate god stems from a lack of self-confidence or intellectual deficiency. It is inevitable that people with an intelligence level above a certain threshold will recognize this truth.

PS: donot split my post.

Your idea of continuity is not new. Atheists back in the past believe that universe/ space-time was eternal however this notion was later on rejected by even the modern day atheists. There must be must be starting point.

Similarly, in Hinduism, the concept of God, often referred to as "Brahman,". Brahman is the ultimate reality. If God creates something new, it will still be a part of Himself and will still be God, There is no separation between the creator and creation. Are you referring me to this concept of Hinduism. If everything is god then they must have same characteristics. Everything would respect one another.

Your post doesn't answer the real question of who is the creator of god/matter as you mentioned?

I understand your point, and while the concept of continuity may not be entirely new, it brings us back to an essential question: does the notion of a "starting point" truly hold up under scrutiny? I believe the issue isn’t necessarily the existence of a beginning but the assumption that something must have started from "nothing," which seems to be a contradiction to the observed reality of transformation and persistence in the universe. When we observe matter, energy, and life, we notice that nothing truly ceases to exist, but rather changes its form, just as you pointed out. It is this ongoing process of transformation continuity that is fundamental.

As for your reference to Hinduism and the concept of Brahman, yes, I think there are similarities between that idea and my own thoughts. However, my argument is not strictly bound to any one religious or philosophical framework. I’m presenting continuity as a universal concept that applies not just to the question of the divine but also to the essence of matter itself. If God, or Brahman, is all encompassing, then indeed, everything is a part of Him, without any separation. But this idea doesn't imply that everything would "respect" one another automatically, it’s more about understanding the unity of existence beyond the constraints of time and space. The real question is not necessarily "who created God?" or "where does matter come from?" because I believe everything has always been. We exist in a universe that operates by transformation and continuity, where nothing truly originates from a void.