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stationary
1 (50%)
rising up
1 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 2

Voting closed: May 19, 2024, 10:45:08 AM

Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?

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JackBlack

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #120 on: June 04, 2024, 01:40:33 AM »
There are several pieces of evidence for universal acceleration:
Yet no one can provide any.
The best they can do is say we can't tell the difference between gravity and UA.
And the site of lies is not a valid reference.

And as already highlighted, there are massive problems for it.
It cannot account for the variations.

Several concepts of flat earth theory are amply demonstrated.
So now you are just trying to find old refuted BS and spamming it?
Guess what, that has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand.

How do you account for the variations in g accross Earth?

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Timeisup

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #121 on: June 08, 2024, 08:53:01 AM »
There are several pieces of evidence for universal acceleration:
Yet no one can provide any.
The best they can do is say we can't tell the difference between gravity and UA.
And the site of lies is not a valid reference.

And as already highlighted, there are massive problems for it.
It cannot account for the variations.

Several concepts of flat earth theory are amply demonstrated.
So now you are just trying to find old refuted BS and spamming it?
Guess what, that has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand.

How do you account for the variations in g accross Earth?

UA!

Are you serious?

Ua is a heap of nonsense just like the rest of Flat earth crap. That includes the stuff you think is true....whatever that happens to be as you are so chicken shit scared to actually come clean on that.
"I can accept that some aspects of FE belief are true, while others are fiction."

Jack Black

Now that is a laugh!

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JackBlack

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #122 on: June 08, 2024, 02:54:10 PM »
Ua is a heap of nonsense just like the rest of Flat earth crap. That includes the stuff you think is true....whatever that happens to be as you are so chicken shit scared to actually come clean on that.
And agian you make another entirely worthless post to just further demonstrate and spread your hatred throughout the forums.
Why?
Whats the point? What does it achieve?
To make sure everyone knows you are a hate filled POS with absolutely no concern for the truth? That you are far worse than any FEer here?
Is that really your end goal? To make REers look crazy?

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Ski

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #123 on: June 10, 2024, 06:24:00 PM »
Based on what scientific evidence? Since you love science so much.
Look out your window.

Quote from: Unconvinced
I see you are ignoring the point that your definitions are just wrong.
Not at all.

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And I suppose you also think that Newton’s law was named after it’s replacement over 200 years later?
No. He theorized that gravitation was due to a force and was dependent on the mass of objects. He called that force "Gravitatis". Or "Gravity". It's where we got the english word (in that context). We also know that isn't true. The phenomenon he believed Gravity explained was gravitation.


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You can start with how Newtonian mechanics was accepted by scientists.
Newton's Gravity was not accepted by scientists. It was non-cartesian, for one, which at the time made it unattractive. It had no stated mechanism (and gravitation is no closer to finding a mechanism today), which was also incredibly unattractive. Third, it didn't actually match planetary motion. It gradually gained traction, and then almost immediately started losing it again when Le Verrier himself, published perturbations it could not describe. Then it was quickly repudiated by Maxwell, Gauss, Lorentz, and others trying to explain observed perturbation.

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Try to reconcile either of these scientific advancements with your batty beliefs about the shape of the earth.
How lauded can the "advancements" be if they do not even describe reality?

Quote
What fascinates me is your apparent total lack of scientific curiosity about your own beliefs.  Are you happy to just witter on about how science works on the internet, or are you going to put some thought into how to test your own ideas?
One of you (you, I believe) just went on an obscurantist rant about how things do not even need to be falsifiable, just useful to you. But you want me to spend time describing things to you?  To what good?  I am quite confident in my belief. I have over a decade and a half of posting on this forum. If you wish to read what I think or what I have done, feel free to use the search function.

"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Ski

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #124 on: June 10, 2024, 06:40:12 PM »
Firstly there is only Physics. A subject you obviously know nothing about.
...make believe world of the flat earth believer.
Anyone with half an ounce of scientific reasoning would dismiss ...
A fat man with glasses a bad haircut and a belief in a flat earth immediately precludes him from saying anything that has any scientific merit.

As I said flat earth belief has no facts or science and is little more than a silly fiction put forward by silly people.
I am not sure you have noticed what has happened around you in the last two decades, but pretending to be John Oliver is not persuasive anymore. People are waking up and cannot be silenced by haughty derision. Would you say the decades of condescension has resulted in fewer people believing you? Is FET less popular or more than previous?


Throughout the years it has become a duty of each Flat Earth Society member, to meet the common Round Earther in the open, avowed, and unyielding rebellion; to declare that his reign of error and confusion is over; and that henceforth, like a falling dynasty, he must shrink and disappear, leaving the throne and the kingdom of science and philosophy to those awakening intellects whose numbers are constantly increasing, and whose march is rapid and irresistible. The soldiers of truth and reason of the Flat Earth Society have drawn the sword, and ere another generation has been educated and grown to maturity, will have forced the usurpers to abdicate. Like the decayed and crumbling trees of an ancient forest, rent and shattered by wind and storm, the hypothetical philosophies, which have hitherto cumbered the civilized world, are unable to resist the elements of experimental and logical criticism; and sooner or later must succumb to their assaults. The axe is uplifted for a final stroke - it is about to fall upon the primitive sphere of the earth, and the blow will surely "cut the cumberer down!"

IN VERITATE VICTORIA
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Ski

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #125 on: June 10, 2024, 06:43:08 PM »
"Universal acceleration" does not need to be "falsified".  It needs to be proven.  There is literally nothing about flat earth concepts that has been demonstrated... NOTHING!!!

This is one of the silliests websites I've ever seen.

There are plenty of ways to demonstrate the earth is rising. Step off a chair and watch the earth rise to meet you.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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markjo

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #126 on: June 10, 2024, 08:22:36 PM »
There are plenty of ways to demonstrate the earth is rising. Step off a chair and watch the earth rise to meet you.
The floor would argue that you are the one falling down to meet it. 

Hmmm...

Who should I believe?

Einstein says that you're both right and there is no way to tell the difference .

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Ski

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #127 on: June 10, 2024, 09:47:01 PM »
The floor would argue that you are the one falling down to meet it. 

One might easily hold an accelerometer and see what it says as the floor rises to meet you. Just as easy to measure the acceleration of the floor with an accelerometer.

It's relatively little actual effort to see the floor has a factually flawed argument, which one might expect from floors and hypotheticals presented by your like.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2024, 09:50:40 PM by Ski »
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Themightykabool

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #128 on: June 10, 2024, 10:10:17 PM »
except requires you to monkey around with every caclulation requiring individual frames of reference and perspectives so much that there is no universal accelleration.

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Ski

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #129 on: June 10, 2024, 10:25:29 PM »
except requires you to monkey around with every caclulation requiring individual frames of reference and perspectives so much that there is no universal accelleration.

It is literally the opposite of any of that. It's just you watching the floor rise to meet you. Again, easily verified with an accelerometer. It is the simplest of experiments. Anyone is free to prove it to oneself.


« Last Edit: June 10, 2024, 10:27:26 PM by Ski »
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Themightykabool

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #130 on: June 10, 2024, 10:34:51 PM »
no
because every person experiences a different thing
you haven't made any universal experience.
you've overcomplicated a simple thing
you've johndavis'd a globe into a noneuclidian plane where each person is an antikythera unto themself

it's unnecessary
be more simple

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JackBlack

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #131 on: June 11, 2024, 01:52:49 AM »
One might easily hold an accelerometer and see what it says as the floor rises to meet you. Just as easy to measure the acceleration of the floor with an accelerometer.
The issue is making an accelerometer that isn't influenced by other forces, like gravity.

If you just blindly accept the results of the accelerometer, then different parts of Earth's surface are accelerating at different rates, which would tear it apart.

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gnuarm

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #132 on: June 11, 2024, 02:26:27 AM »
There are plenty of ways to demonstrate the earth is rising. Step off a chair and watch the earth rise to meet you.
The floor would argue that you are the one falling down to meet it. 

Hmmm...

Who should I believe?

Einstein says that you're both right and there is no way to tell the difference .


Actually, there is a way to tell the difference.  Acceleration will create forces on each object which will be vectors, all perfectly parallel.  A gravitational field will create forces on each object which will be vectors pointing to the center of the earth... so, not perfectly parallel. 

If your equipment is sensitive to this, then the issue is decided. 


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Unconvinced

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #133 on: June 11, 2024, 03:20:53 AM »
Based on what scientific evidence? Since you love science so much.
Look out your window.

LOL.  Very scientific.

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Quote from: Unconvinced
I see you are ignoring the point that your definitions are just wrong.
Not at all.

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And I suppose you also think that Newton’s law was named after it’s replacement over 200 years later?
No. He theorized that gravitation was due to a force and was dependent on the mass of objects. He called that force "Gravitatis". Or "Gravity". It's where we got the english word (in that context). We also know that isn't true. The phenomenon he believed Gravity explained was gravitation.

Gravitation is the interaction between all particles.  Gravity is the effect on an object in a substantial gravitational field.  Or to put it another way, we use the word gravitation in discussing theories, and gravity for why it hurts when you drop a brick on your toe.

Apparently you don’t you care about the accepted definitions of words any more.

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You can start with how Newtonian mechanics was accepted by scientists.
Newton's Gravity was not accepted by scientists. It was non-cartesian, for one, which at the time made it unattractive. It had no stated mechanism (and gravitation is no closer to finding a mechanism today), which was also incredibly unattractive.

It wasn’t immediately accepted by everyone, but gradually cartesianism gave way to empiricism.  Old ideas were discarded in favour of the better model.  You might say that they were falsified.

Newton’s laws are generally regarded as the culmination of the scientific revolution, which marked the beginning of the enlightenment.  Classical (Newtonian) mechanics were the foundations of the engineering used for the industrial revolution, and still used today.  You can thank Newton not only for his enormous contribution to the science you claim to respect, but also in giving you the ability to post your musings on the internet.

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Third, it didn't actually match planetary motion. It gradually gained traction, and then almost immediately started losing it again when Le Verrier himself, published perturbations it could not describe. Then it was quickly repudiated by Maxwell, Gauss, Lorentz, and others trying to explain observed perturbation.

Almost immediately?

Newton first published Principia in 1687.  Le Verrier wasn’t even born until 1811.  Le Verrier is best known predicting the existence of Neptune, which turned out to be right where he said it should be according to Newton’s laws.  A marvelous validation for classical mechanics.

Of course none of the works of the people you misappropriate should mean anything to someone who believes in a tiny sun circling impossibly above a flat earth, and all the other nonsense you dream up to go with it.

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Try to reconcile either of these scientific advancements with your batty beliefs about the shape of the earth.
How lauded can the "advancements" be if they do not even describe reality?

Oh the irony.  Maybe flat earthers should concentrate more on the simpler questions that ancient civilizations pondered.  Like where is the Sun hiding at night?  What are the stars and planets? 

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What fascinates me is your apparent total lack of scientific curiosity about your own beliefs.  Are you happy to just witter on about how science works on the internet, or are you going to put some thought into how to test your own ideas?
One of you (you, I believe) just went on an obscurantist rant about how things do not even need to be falsifiable, just useful to you. But you want me to spend time describing things to you?  To what good?  I am quite confident in my belief. I have over a decade and a half of posting on this forum. If you wish to read what I think or what I have done, feel free to use the search function.

Oh, I have searched.  Many times.  I’ve scoured this site, Tom’s wiki and everywhere else I could think of for any hint of scientific methodology in all this.  I found none.

I really don’t care that you believe it.  You can believe it all you like.

But since you like to lecture “globularists” about the scientific method so much, I wonder if you’ll ever bother to apply those principles to your own beliefs? 

Or if this really is the best you can do?

Look out your window.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2024, 05:53:28 AM by Unconvinced »

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Unconvinced

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #134 on: June 11, 2024, 03:37:11 AM »
There are plenty of ways to demonstrate the earth is rising. Step off a chair and watch the earth rise to meet you.
The floor would argue that you are the one falling down to meet it. 

Hmmm...

Who should I believe?

Einstein says that you're both right and there is no way to tell the difference .


Actually, there is a way to tell the difference.  Acceleration will create forces on each object which will be vectors, all perfectly parallel.  A gravitational field will create forces on each object which will be vectors pointing to the center of the earth... so, not perfectly parallel. 

If your equipment is sensitive to this, then the issue is decided. 



Or just move to another location.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #135 on: June 11, 2024, 05:01:14 AM »
Stack is correct. An accelerometer in free-fall proves that it is inert and that the earth is accelerating upwards. It can also be seen with a water balloon, which acts as a crude accelerometer.



Source

When in freefall bodies become weightless. This is also demonstrated on one of those zero-g airplane flights. When the aircraft falls the occupants in the craft become weightless.



In the above the girl's hair become weightless. However, if there was something invisible pulling every atom of the hair "down," it should not become weightless.

For example, consider if we had a horizontal length of rope on one of the zero-g aircraft flights. While the cabin is falling there should still be "gavity" pulling every point of the rope "down" as in the left hand side of the below image. Parts of the rope should not be able to float and deform upwards weightlessly without resistance against gravity, as in the right hand side of the image.



Hence, we have a demonstration that reality acts as if freefalling bodies are inert and the earth is accelerating upwards.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2024, 05:24:03 AM by Tom Bishop »

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gnuarm

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #136 on: June 11, 2024, 05:26:51 AM »
Stack is correct. An accelerometer in free-fall proves that it is inert and that the earth is accelerating upwards. It can also be seen with a water balloon, which acts as a crude accelerometer.



Source

This proves nothing.  What is your reasoning? 


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When in freefall bodies become weightless. This is also demonstrated on one of those zero-g airplane flights. When the aircraft falls the occupants in the craft become weightless.



However, if there was something invisible pulling every atom of the hair "down," it should not become weightless.

By "something invisible", you mean gravity?  As stated by the equivalence principle, which I believe you often state, the two are largely indistinguishable.  So, what are you talking about???


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For example, consider if we had a horizontal length of rope on one of the zero-g aircraft flights. While the cabin is falling there should still be "gavity" pulling every point of the rope "down" as in the left hand side of the below image. Parts of the rope should not be able to float and deform upwards weightlessly without resistance against gravity, as in the right hand side of the image.



Hence, we have a demonstration that reality acts as if free-falling bodies are inert and the earth is accelerating upwards.

You make, literally, no sense!  You make false assertions, like gravity should still be "pulling down", even in free-fall, then show that because you misunderstand something as simple as gravity, that gravity doesn't exist. 

Please, please go back to school or at least read some books that talk about gravity.  Maybe you can still learn.

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Unconvinced

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #137 on: June 11, 2024, 05:30:42 AM »
Stack is correct. An accelerometer in free-fall proves that it is inert and that the earth is accelerating upwards. It can also be seen with a water balloon, which acts as a crude accelerometer.



Source

When in freefall bodies become weightless. This is also demonstrated on one of those zero-g airplane flights. When the aircraft falls the occupants in the craft become weightless.



However, if there was something invisible pulling every atom of the hair "down," it should not become weightless.

For example, consider if we had a horizontal length of rope on one of the zero-g aircraft flights. While the cabin is falling there should still be "gavity" pulling every point of the rope "down" as in the left hand side of the below image. Parts of the rope should not be able to float and deform upwards weightlessly without resistance against gravity, as in the right hand side of the image.



Hence, we have a demonstration that reality acts as if freefalling bodies are inert and the earth is accelerating upwards.

You probably should have learned how stuff works before writing an enormous wiki on all the things you fail to understand.

The cabin and everything in it are all falling at the same rate.  It’s ALL in freefall.  Why do you think her hair or your rope should be pulled down faster than anything else? 

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #138 on: June 11, 2024, 05:37:25 AM »
The rope should be pulled at the same rate as the cabin. Parts of the rope should not float upwards without resistance against gravity. The fact that it does proves that gravity is not pulling downwards on all points of the rope. Gravity is not an invisible phenomenon which pulls things down.

You two are embarrassingly mistaken, and need to learn more about the Equivalence Principle and Einstein.

Einstein even uses the fact that you become weightless in freefall as part of his proof against Newtonian Gravity. In Einstein's view the phenomenon of weightlessness while falling shows that the surface of the Earth is accelerating upwards. It is why in the Round Earth model the downwards-pulling Newtonian Gravity is disproven in favor of a scenario where the surface of the earth is accelerating upwards through curved space.

Re-read this section "Why Is Spacetime Curved?" from the book Time Travel in Einstein’s Universe by John Richard Gott III, professor of astrophysical sciences at Princeton University:

https://books.google.com/books?id=3QBgCgAAQBAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&lpg=PP1&pg=PT97#v=onepage&q&f=false

  “ A famous (perhaps apocryphal) story about Einstein describes one occasion when he fell into conversation with a man at the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton. During their chat, the man suddenly pulled a little book from his coat pocket and jotted something down. Einstein asked, “What is that?" “Oh,” the man answered, “it's a notebook I keep, so that any time I have a good idea I can write it down before I forget it.” “I never needed one of those," Einstein replied. “I only had three good ideas.”

One of them occurred to him in 1907—what he would later call the “happiest” idea of his life. Einstein noted that an observer on Earth and an observer on an accelerating spaceship in interstellar space would have the same sensations. Follow this chain of thought to see why. Galileo had shown that an observer dropping two balls of different mass on Earth sees them hit the floor at the same time. If an observer in an accelerating rocket in interstellar space performed the same experiment, dropping two balls of different mass, they would float motionless in space—but, since the rocket was firing, the floor of the spaceship would simply come up and hit both of them at once. Both observers thus should see the same thing. In one case, it is the result of gravity; in the other case, it is caused by an accelerating floor with no gravity involved. But then Einstein proposed something very bold—if the two situations looked the same, they must be the same. Gravity was nothing more than an accelerated frame-of-reference. Likewise, Einstein noted that if you get in an elevator on Earth and cut the cable, you and everything in the elevator will fall toward Earth at the same rate. (Galileo again—objects of different mass all fall at the same rate.) So, how do things look to you in the falling elevator? Any object you drop will float weightless in the elevator—because you, the object, and the elevator are all falling at the same rate together. This is exactly what you would see if you were in a spaceship floating in interstellar space. All the objects in the spaceship, including you, would be weightless. If you want to experience weightlessness just like an astronaut, all you have to do is get in an elevator and cut the cable. (This works, of course, only until the elevator hits bottom.)

Einstein's assertion that gravity and acceleration are, the same—which he called the equivalence principle—was influenced, no doubt, by his previous success in equating the situation of a stationary magnet and a moving charge with that of a stationary charge and a moving magnet. But if gravity and accelerated motion were the same, then gravity was nothing but accelerated motion. Earth's surface was simply accelerating upward. This explained why a heavy ball and a light ball, when dropped, hit the floor at the same time. When the balls are released, they just float there—weightless. The floor (Earth) simply comes up and hits them. What a remarkably fresh way of looking at things!

Still one must ask how Earth’s surface could be accelerating upward (away from Earth's center) if Earth itself is not getting bigger and bigger with time like a balloon. The only way the assertion could make sense is by considering spacetime to be curved.

Einstein proposed that mass and energy cause spacetime to curve. It took him 8 years of hard work to derive the equations governing this. He had to learn the abstruse geometry of curved higher dimensional spaces. He had to learn about the Riemannian curvature tensor—a mathematical monster with 256 components telling how spacetime could be curved. This was very difficult mathematics, and Einstein ran upon many false leads. But he didn't give up because he had great faith in the idea. ”
« Last Edit: June 11, 2024, 05:45:10 AM by Tom Bishop »

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gnuarm

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #139 on: June 11, 2024, 07:39:12 AM »
The rope should be pulled at the same rate as the cabin. Parts of the rope should not float upwards without resistance against gravity. The fact that it does proves that gravity is not pulling downwards on all points of the rope. Gravity is not an invisible phenomenon which pulls things down.

You do not understand gravity, nor the equivalence principle.  The rope will appear to be "floating" to anyone in the cabin, when in free fall, just like everything else in the cabin.  Gravity is in action, which is obvious since things are falling.  The people, the rope, everything inside the Vomit Comet, is falling.  How can you not understand this?


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You two are embarrassingly mistaken, and need to learn more about the Equivalence Principle and Einstein.

There is very definitely embarrassment going on. 


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Einstein even uses the fact that you become weightless in freefall as part of his proof against Newtonian Gravity.

What???  It was not "disproving" gravity, it was simply providing an underlying mechanism, one that works for all conditions.  Until then, there were some small discrepancies in the calculations of planet orbits.  There are still some residual errors, but they are very, very small. 


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In Einstein's view the phenomenon of weightlessness while falling shows that the surface of the Earth is accelerating upwards.

It absolutely does not show any such thing.  Saying that shows extreme ignorance of science.


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It is why in the Round Earth model the downwards-pulling Newtonian Gravity
[err... you mean Relativistic Gravity]
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is disproven in favor of a scenario where the surface of the earth is accelerating upwards through curved space.

Can you provide a reference by a credible scientist who supports this idea?  I'll bet not.  It's a blatant impossibility, since the earth is a globe and it would require the entire planet to expand at 9.8 m/s^2.


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Re-read this section "Why Is Spacetime Curved?" from the book Time Travel in Einstein’s Universe by John Richard Gott III, professor of astrophysical sciences at Princeton University:

https://books.google.com/books?id=3QBgCgAAQBAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&lpg=PP1&pg=PT97#v=onepage&q&f=false

  “ A famous (perhaps apocryphal) story about Einstein describes one occasion when he fell into conversation with a man at the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton. During their chat, the man suddenly pulled a little book from his coat pocket and jotted something down. Einstein asked, “What is that?" “Oh,” the man answered, “it's a notebook I keep, so that any time I have a good idea I can write it down before I forget it.” “I never needed one of those," Einstein replied. “I only had three good ideas.”

One of them occurred to him in 1907—what he would later call the “happiest” idea of his life. Einstein noted that an observer on Earth and an observer on an accelerating spaceship in interstellar space would have the same sensations. Follow this chain of thought to see why. Galileo had shown that an observer dropping two balls of different mass on Earth sees them hit the floor at the same time. If an observer in an accelerating rocket in interstellar space performed the same experiment, dropping two balls of different mass, they would float motionless in space—but, since the rocket was firing, the floor of the spaceship would simply come up and hit both of them at once. Both observers thus should see the same thing. In one case, it is the result of gravity; in the other case, it is caused by an accelerating floor with no gravity involved. But then Einstein proposed something very bold—if the two situations looked the same, they must be the same. Gravity was nothing more than an accelerated frame-of-reference. Likewise, Einstein noted that if you get in an elevator on Earth and cut the cable, you and everything in the elevator will fall toward Earth at the same rate. (Galileo again—objects of different mass all fall at the same rate.) So, how do things look to you in the falling elevator? Any object you drop will float weightless in the elevator—because you, the object, and the elevator are all falling at the same rate together. This is exactly what you would see if you were in a spaceship floating in interstellar space. All the objects in the spaceship, including you, would be weightless. If you want to experience weightlessness just like an astronaut, all you have to do is get in an elevator and cut the cable. (This works, of course, only until the elevator hits bottom.)

Yes, the "rope" will float, as if there were no gravity, which is what you say proves there is no gravity.   


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Einstein's assertion that gravity and acceleration are, the same

I've never read that he said this.  He said you can not distinguish the two by measurements... but he was wrong.  In a gravitational field, the direction of the force will be towards the center of the mass creating the gravitational field, radii, if you will.  A constant acceleration will result in the force vectors all being perfectly parallel. 


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—which he called the equivalence principle—was influenced, no doubt, by his previous success in equating the situation of a stationary magnet and a moving charge with that of a stationary charge and a moving magnet. But if gravity and accelerated motion were the same, then gravity was nothing but accelerated motion. Earth's surface was simply accelerating upward.

Not "upward", but outward, away from the center of the earth.


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This explained why a heavy ball and a light ball, when dropped, hit the floor at the same time. When the balls are released, they just float there—weightless. The floor (Earth) simply comes up and hits them. What a remarkably fresh way of looking at things!

Yes, very fresh, indeed.  Not accurate, but very fresh.


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Still one must ask how Earth’s surface could be accelerating upward (away from Earth's center) if Earth itself is not getting bigger and bigger with time like a balloon. The only way the assertion could make sense is by considering spacetime to be curved.

Einstein proposed that mass and energy cause spacetime to curve. It took him 8 years of hard work to derive the equations governing this. He had to learn the abstruse geometry of curved higher dimensional spaces. He had to learn about the Riemannian curvature tensor—a mathematical monster with 256 components telling how spacetime could be curved. This was very difficult mathematics, and Einstein ran upon many false leads. But he didn't give up because he had great faith in the idea. ”

Yes, we are all aware of this.  Do you retype this from scratch every time you post it?  Or do you copy from your wiki?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #140 on: June 11, 2024, 08:23:24 AM »
Arguing with those words from the physics professor on the nature of physics is a fruitless endeavor, as you have no known physics credentials.

Einstein's Gravity does not have objects being pulled downwards towards the earth. It has the earth accelerating up into objects, in an unseen meta-physical reality called curved space. The downward pulling Newtonian Gravity was deemed to be insufficient because it does not explain the behavior that an upwardly accelerating earth predicts.

Quite simply, you are wrong and ignorant to what the Equivalence Principle and modern version of RE gravity, General Relativity, even is.

Tony Goldsmith, author of a mass-media book Space-time for Absolute Beginners and his Absolute Beginner book series, explains the Equivalence Principle as follows:

  “ When you are in a lift you may be accelerated. Where is this coming from? It is the lift pushing you up. Einstein said that the Earth does the same as a lift (which has an acceleration of g). The Earth isn't in the way; it is doing the pushing. This is his Equivalence Principle. ”

A popular science video by Veritasium with over 10 million views, Why Gravity is NOT a Force, explains at the 9:57 mark how in General Relativity when on Earth you accelerate upwards without changing your spatial coordinates with the General Relativity equation:



@9:57

“ But if I'm accelerating up and so is everyone else around the world and presumably the whole surface of the Earth, then shouldn't the whole earth be expanding?

No. It is possible for you to be accelerating even though your spatial coordinates are not changing. I will show you one equation from General Relativity...

[equation]

...so in curved space-time you have to accelerate just to stand still. ”
« Last Edit: June 11, 2024, 08:32:22 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Unconvinced

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #141 on: June 11, 2024, 08:45:33 AM »

In the above the girl's hair become weightless. However, if there was something invisible pulling every atom of the hair "down," it should not become weightless.

Quote from: Tom’s citation
So, how do things look to you in the falling elevator? Any object you drop will float weightless in the elevator—because you, the object, and the elevator are all falling at the same rate together. This is exactly what you would see if you were in a spaceship floating in interstellar space. All the objects in the spaceship, including you, would be weightless.

See how your own citation says the exact opposite to your claim?


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Ski

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #142 on: June 11, 2024, 10:18:40 AM »
One might easily hold an accelerometer and see what it says as the floor rises to meet you. Just as easy to measure the acceleration of the floor with an accelerometer.
The issue is making an accelerometer that isn't influenced by other forces, like gravity.

If you just blindly accept the results of the accelerometer, then different parts of Earth's surface are accelerating at different rates, which would tear it apart.

There is no force acting on the accelerometer other than the earth. Conceivably air, of course, though I doubt one could measure it accurately on the fall from the chair. If I were falling to the earth as conventionally posited, the accelerometer could measure my acceleration. It does not. Again, anyone can verify this simple fact for himself; he need not take my word for it.

Can you provide us with your experimental data so that we can see the different acceleration rates you measured and attempt to determine what the cause of those deviations may be? Or could it be that you making a bald assertion that the earth is accelerating at different rates based on some other a priori belief?

"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Ski

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #143 on: June 11, 2024, 10:20:46 AM »
Actually, there is a way to tell the difference.  Acceleration will create forces on each object which will be vectors, all perfectly parallel.  A gravitational field will create forces on each object which will be vectors pointing to the center of the earth... so, not perfectly parallel. 

If your equipment is sensitive to this, then the issue is decided. 
So presumably you have done this, of course. Can you present your data and experimental method? Or is this more word vomit regurgitated from a holy book?

"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Ski

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #144 on: June 11, 2024, 10:39:16 AM »
The rope should be pulled at the same rate as the cabin. Parts of the rope should not float upwards without resistance against gravity. The fact that it does proves that gravity is not pulling downwards on all points of the rope. Gravity is not an invisible phenomenon which pulls things down.

You do not understand gravity, nor the equivalence principle.  The rope will appear to be "floating" to anyone in the cabin, when in free fall, just like everything else in the cabin.  Gravity is in action, which is obvious since things are falling.  The people, the rope, everything inside the Vomit Comet, is falling.  How can you not understand this?

If everything in the cabin is falling together and accelerating toward the earth, why is no acceleration measured?

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He said you can not distinguish the two by measurements... but he was wrong.
This is fantastic reading. Thank you.

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Le Verrier is best known predicting the existence of Neptune, which turned out to be right where he said it should be according to Newton’s laws.  A marvelous validation for classical mechanics.
This is a story book re-telling of the story that does not match reality. It's not your fault that you've been lied to, but LeVierrier made errors in his assumptions, and by chance actually found Neptune in the "wrong" place. It's a modern myth perpetuated by school books. Like Cristoffa Corombo and the round earth paradigm.

My citation, because no doubt your faith in the holy books you were fed as a child will need one:

Quote from: AJS -- The Planet Neptune, and its Relations to the Perturbations of Uranus (S.C. Walker)
The eccentricity of Venus is 0-007, the smallest before known; that of Neptune is 0 005.
If we admit for the moment that my views are correct, then LeVerrier's announcement of March 29th is in perfect accordance with that of Professor Peirce of the 16th of the same month, viz. that the present visible planet Neptune is not the mathematical planet to which theory had directed the telescope. None of its elements conform to the theoretical limits. Nor does it perform the functions on which alone its existence was predicted, viz. those of removing that opprobrium of astronomers, the unexplained perturbations of Uranus.

We have it on the authority of Professor Peirce that if we ascribe to Neptune a mass of three-fourths of the amount predicted by LeVerrier, it will have the best possible effect in reducing the residual perturbations of Uranus below their former value; but will nevertheless leave them on the average two-thirds as great as before.

It is indeed remarkable that the two distinguished European astronomers, LeVerrier and Adams, should, by a wrong hypothesis, have been led to a right conclusion respecting the actual position of a planet in the heavens. It required for their success a compensation of errors. The unforeseen error of sixty years in their assumed period was compensated by the other unforeseen error of their assumed office of the planet. If both of them had committed only one theoretical error, (not then, but now believed to be such,) they would, according to Prof. Peirce's computations, have agreed in pointing the telescope in the wrong direction, and Neptune might have been unknown for years to come.

I do not know that my prediction would have been more accurate than those of LeVerrier, Adams, or the host of others unsuccesfully attempting to calculate the position of a new planet. I just know that I'd be honest enough to admit my fantastic good fortune to have found a remarkably disimilar planet to that which I predicted in the exceptionally small window of time in which it would appear in the same arc of sky. I would not allow it to be disseminated as proof of my great mathematical model. It is a far cry from "pertubation must be caused by another body" to "I predicted the exact planet based on the perturbations".


"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Unconvinced

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #145 on: June 11, 2024, 12:29:50 PM »

This is a story book re-telling of the story that does not match reality. It's not your fault that you've been lied to, but LeVierrier made errors in his assumptions, and by chance actually found Neptune in the "wrong" place. It's a modern myth perpetuated by school books. Like Cristoffa Corombo and the round earth paradigm.

My citation, because no doubt your faith in the holy books you were fed as a child will need one:

Is your citation based on a flat earth model of the solar system with a tiny sun?

If not, you have vastly bigger discrepancies to resolve here.

Where are the flat earth calculations for the orbits of the planets?

Please refrain from citing our holy books, and use your superior scientific flat earth models to demonstrate your extensive flat earth research.

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markjo

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #146 on: June 11, 2024, 02:19:51 PM »
It's relatively little actual effort to see the floor has a factually flawed argument, which one might expect from floors and hypotheticals presented by your like.
The floor sees you falling towards it.  Which fact is flawed? ???
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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JackBlack

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #147 on: June 11, 2024, 02:22:18 PM »
Stack is correct. An accelerometer in free-fall proves that it is inert and that the earth is accelerating upwards.
No, they are entirely wrong, as has been explained repeatedly.
The point of the equivalence principle is not to say Earth is accelerating upwards, but that there is no way to tell the difference between a uniform gravitational field and uniform upwards acceleration.
The key part here is UNIFORM.

So no, an accelerometer in free fall, still can't tell the difference.

What can tell the difference is moving that accelerometer around, or getting a bunch of them, and placing them at different locations on Earth's surface.
If it really is Earth accelerating upwards, they shouold all read the same within uncertainty.
But in reality they will read different values depending on location.

However, if there was something invisible pulling every atom of the hair "down," it should not become weightless.
Wrong again.
If there was something invisible pulling every atom of the hair down at the same rate, it SHOULD become weightless, until something tries to stop that.

You are now basically saying that the equivalent principle is wrong, and that a uniform gravitational field should not act the same as uniform acceleration.
That they should produce different effects.

But I'm almost certain that you know you are now spouting pure BS, where you are yet again blatantly distorting the facts to try to prop up your fantasy with no concern for the truth.

While the cabin is falling there should still be "gavity" pulling every point of the rope "down" as in the left hand side of the below image. Parts of the rope should not be able to float and deform upwards weightlessly without resistance against gravity, as in the right hand side of the image.
In the absence of all other forces, including air currents.
But that applies regardless of if it is in a hypothetical area without gravity, or in free fall with gravity.

Without other forces, then in a hypothetical area with no gravity, the rope shouold just sit there being perfectly straight. Other forces can then perturb it to move part of the rope up and part of it down.

Without other forces, in free fall with gravity, the rope shouold all be being pulled down at the same rate, by which I mean each part of the rope experiences the same specific force. This also causes it to sit there being perfectly straight. Other forces can then perturb it to make parts of the rope accelerate more or less due to a greater or lesser net specific force.

Hence, we have a demonstration that reality acts as if freefalling bodies are inert and the earth is accelerating upwards.
Which is NOT the issue.
The issue is not if it "acts as if".
The issue is what is reality?
Appealing to situations where you cannot tell if it is gravity pulling down or Earth accelerating upwards does NOT show Earth is accelerating upwards.
It shows you can't tell.

You need to appeal to situations where it is different.
Such as the variations in g accross Earth you keep dodging.

You two are embarrassingly mistaken, and need to learn more about the Equivalence Principle and Einstein.
Follow your own advice, as you are outright contradicting them.

Einstein even uses the fact that you become weightless in freefall as part of his proof against Newtonian Gravity.
Not so much as a proof against it, as an alternative explanation for why mass for gravity is the same as mass for inertia, and to justify the explanation of curved space time.

earth is accelerating upwards through curved space.
Not space, spacetime. They are different.
The surface of Earth accelerating outwards through spacetime is fundamentally different to Earth's surface accelerating upwards through space.

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JackBlack

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #148 on: June 11, 2024, 02:44:00 PM »
There is no force acting on the accelerometer other than the earth.
And by "the earth" are you including gravity?
If not, your argument is entirely circular; saying there is no force of gravity to affect the accelerometer, so the accelerometer showing an upwards acceleration proves it is Earth accelerating rather than gravity.

If we reject that assertion and instead allow the possibility of a downwards force proportional to mass acting on the acceleromter, than we cannot tell if it is reading that downwards force, or if Earth is accelerating.
And we could allow the more general idea of just a force affecting it, but then we would expect different readings from different accelerometers which have been constructed differently.
For example one made of a paramagnetic material shuold be affected differently to one made from a diamagnetic material if magnetism was at play.

Likewise, if you use it while you are falling, you cannot tell if it is measuring no acceleration, or a combination of an acceleration and a force.

Fortunately, we have things which show it isn't merely upwards acceleration.
Like the Eotvos effect, which shows an increased or reduced rate depending on which direction you travel in; which makes sense on a rotating round Earth, and the data showing variation accross the surface of Earth.

Can you provide us with your experimental data so that we can see the different acceleration rates you measured and attempt to determine what the cause of those deviations may be? Or could it be that you making a bald assertion that the earth is accelerating at different rates based on some other a priori belief?
Not my experimental data, the data of others, which I thought had been provided in this thread, but was in a different thread:


It doesn't vary. The experiments which show variations are uncontrolled. There are also contradicting experiments which show no variation. Show us the experiment and I will show you the fallacy.
Continually ignoring reality wont help you.
We have been over this, the atmosphere doesn't provide a significant enough effect to cause these changes.
And there are countless experiments.
e.g. here is one using variations in g to map granite deposits:
https://pubs.geoscienceworld.org/gsa/gsabulletin/article-abstract/78/7/859/6209/Gravity-Investigations-of-Subsurface-Shape-and

Here is one covering a large area (but behind a paywall):
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1029/JB076i020p04855

Here is one for Canadia:
https://ostrnrcan-dostrncan.canada.ca/entities/publication/dc701d1a-870d-4f7d-b67d-929bf13d2fc1

But it doesn't really matter what you claim about what causes these variations. The only way to continue with your claim is to just outright reject these as fake.
Otherwise, there is something which is altering the reading so you cannot merely rely upon an accelerometer to say it is upwards acceleration, as something else is effecting it. That means it could be a wide range of possibilities including primarily an upwards acceleration with some additional force acting to cause variations; purely this other force with no acceleration component; or a combination of acceleration and a force which almost cancel each other out perfectly leaving just this residue behind.

Also, why the double standard?
You say that anyone can verify your claim for themselves and that they don't need to just take your word for it.
Yet for what I have said, for which there is already plenty of documentation supporting it, you want me to provide evidence; even though anyone can verify it from themselves by getting some precise and accurate accelerometers and having them at a few locations around Earth.

I've never read that he said this.  He said you can not distinguish the two by measurements... but he was wrong.  In a gravitational field, the direction of the force will be towards the center of the mass creating the gravitational field, radii, if you will.  A constant acceleration will result in the force vectors all being perfectly parallel.
My understanding was that he said you couldn't distinguish them locally.
i.e. a uniform gravitational field vs a uniform acceleration.
When you go to a more global scale, the field is not uniform, so you can.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2024, 02:46:20 PM by JackBlack »

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gnuarm

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Re: Is the Earth stationary or rising up at 9.8 m/s?
« Reply #149 on: June 11, 2024, 03:20:56 PM »
The rope should be pulled at the same rate as the cabin. Parts of the rope should not float upwards without resistance against gravity. The fact that it does proves that gravity is not pulling downwards on all points of the rope. Gravity is not an invisible phenomenon which pulls things down.

You do not understand gravity, nor the equivalence principle.  The rope will appear to be "floating" to anyone in the cabin, when in free fall, just like everything else in the cabin.  Gravity is in action, which is obvious since things are falling.  The people, the rope, everything inside the Vomit Comet, is falling.  How can you not understand this?

If everything in the cabin is falling together and accelerating toward the earth, why is no acceleration measured?

How do you think an accelerometer operates?  My phone has a 3D force sensor.  When sitting on a table, it will show 1 g pointing straight down, toward the center of the earth.  That is the acceleration we all feel, which we call gravity.  If this phone were on the Vomit Comet (the airplane used to simulate  0 g), it would show 0 g in all directions. 

An accelerometer measures 0 g when in free fall, because that is 0 g. 

I can understand that you don't fully grasp this, as it is complex.  This is part of why they say there is no force from gravity, but that is more about how it works, the warping of space-time. 


Quote
Quote
He said you can not distinguish the two by measurements... but he was wrong.
This is fantastic reading. Thank you.

Quote
Le Verrier is best known predicting the existence of Neptune, which turned out to be right where he said it should be according to Newton’s laws.  A marvelous validation for classical mechanics.
This is a story book re-telling of the story that does not match reality. It's not your fault that you've been lied to, but LeVierrier made errors in his assumptions, and by chance actually found Neptune in the "wrong" place. It's a modern myth perpetuated by school books. Like Cristoffa Corombo and the round earth paradigm.

Not sure why you quoted all this about Le Verrier.  I did not write anything about him, and you have not attributed it to anyone else.