Why are Experts so feared?

 How are to we gain insights into various medical questions such as the benefits of vaccination and other areas of health if we didn’t have people who are expert in that particular field providing the information?.

 It’s just not possible to gain the necessary information to make sensible decisions based on just personal experience.

An Airstrike At Gaza Hospital Kills Hundreds

OCTOBER 18, 20233:34 PM ET

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1198908542/an-airstrike-at-gaza-hospital-kills-hundreds

When life-saving practices are rejected

https://www.trtworld.com/life/7-times-the-medical-establishment-got-it-wrong-167992

Dr Ignaz Semmelweis was a Hungarian obstetrician who theorised in 1850 that physicians transferred perpeural disease — known as childbed fever — to women in the maternity ward due to the common practice of doctors at the hospital delivering babies after conducting barehanded autopsies on diseased corpses.

And as news of his handwashing protocol spread, he was increasingly the target of derision in medical circles throughout Europe. He was regarded as a pariah for challenging the status quo.

Eventually his mental health was called into question and his colleagues had him admitted to a mental hospital where he was beaten. He succumbed to his injuries just days later.

Flossing

https://www.trtworld.com/life/7-times-the-medical-establishment-got-it-wrong-167992

A new report officially knocked flossing off its pedestal; a practice universally taught alongside brushing.

The American Dental Association (ADA) has been promoting floss since 1908, however, it has recently emerged there was never any scientific basis for the recommendation.

The ADA accepts studies conducted by the floss industry, which represents a conflict of interest.

For years the ADA was adamant flossing prevents the build-up of plaque, gingivitis and tooth decay.

In an analysis of 25 studies on floss, the AP found most of the studies, which the ADA cited as a basis for their claims, used unreliable methods; carried a "moderate to large potential for bias"; and sometimes tested few participants. One study tested 25 people after only a single use of floss. Some studies lasted a mere two weeks, not a sufficient duration for a cavity or gum disease to develop.

However, Dr Mehmet Ozcomak, a dentist based in Istanbul, told TRT World, he agreed that while flossing does not prevent cavities in and of itself, it "functions indirectly to improve dental health by removing food particles." He went on to say flossing has some value in "preventing tartar build-up."

How are to we gain insights into various medical questions such as the benefits of vaccination and other areas of health if we didn’t have people who are expert in that particular field providing the information?.

Quote from: Timeisup on January 21, 2024, 02:14:58 PM

 How are to we gain insights into various medical questions such as the benefits of vaccination and other areas of health if we didn’t have people who are expert in that particular field providing the information?.

And yet it takes many persons questioning their doctor and seeking a second and third opinion to get to the right diagnosis.

So.  In the Navy.  There were individuals called yeoman whose only job was to keep track of services records.  And yet it was wise to keep copies  of everything because yoeman lose paperwork.

Anyway.  It’s good to question and nobody is invested in you as you.


And even “experts” should be questioned. Why there is OSHA, the FDA, and so on.

Quote from: Timeisup on January 21, 2024, 02:14:58 PM

 It’s just not possible to gain the necessary information to make sensible decisions based on just personal experience.

Funny.  It comes to mind three cases on a conspiracy site where people questioned the official narrative because it was wrong.  And the media published bad facts.


Trump Russian collusion.

For Iran downing Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752, Irans’s false claims were called out and debunked in real time.

For the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital parking lot explosion on 17 October 2023 with debate and examination of available facts, video, pictures, it was very clear the claims it was an Israeli air strike was a lie.  But you can still find news articles citing the Hamas lie.

Quote

An Airstrike At Gaza Hospital Kills Hundreds

OCTOBER 18, 20233:34 PM ET

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1198908542/an-airstrike-at-gaza-hospital-kills-hundreds

The incident was caused by a misfired rocket from Gaza by Palestinian terrorists or Hamas. 

That was three… but also the lie Russia told that a Ukrainian missile took out a Ukrainian POW barracks under Russian control.  All evidence points to an explosion setting off in the barracks and blowing out.


Like or not, Jack made a valid point.  Many scientific discoveries came about because people questioned the experts.

Quote

When life-saving practices are rejected

https://www.trtworld.com/life/7-times-the-medical-establishment-got-it-wrong-167992

Dr Ignaz Semmelweis was a Hungarian obstetrician who theorised in 1850 that physicians transferred perpeural disease — known as childbed fever — to women in the maternity ward due to the common practice of doctors at the hospital delivering babies after conducting barehanded autopsies on diseased corpses.

And as news of his handwashing protocol spread, he was increasingly the target of derision in medical circles throughout Europe. He was regarded as a pariah for challenging the status quo.

Eventually his mental health was called into question and his colleagues had him admitted to a mental hospital where he was beaten. He succumbed to his injuries just days later.

Do you floss?

Quote

Flossing

https://www.trtworld.com/life/7-times-the-medical-establishment-got-it-wrong-167992

A new report officially knocked flossing off its pedestal; a practice universally taught alongside brushing.

The American Dental Association (ADA) has been promoting floss since 1908, however, it has recently emerged there was never any scientific basis for the recommendation.

The ADA accepts studies conducted by the floss industry, which represents a conflict of interest.

For years the ADA was adamant flossing prevents the build-up of plaque, gingivitis and tooth decay.

In an analysis of 25 studies on floss, the AP found most of the studies, which the ADA cited as a basis for their claims, used unreliable methods; carried a "moderate to large potential for bias"; and sometimes tested few participants. One study tested 25 people after only a single use of floss. Some studies lasted a mere two weeks, not a sufficient duration for a cavity or gum disease to develop.

However, Dr Mehmet Ozcomak, a dentist based in Istanbul, told TRT World, he agreed that while flossing does not prevent cavities in and of itself, it "functions indirectly to improve dental health by removing food particles." He went on to say flossing has some value in "preventing tartar build-up."

You should question. You shouldn’t just expect authority. 

I was even taught to question in the navy.

Flossing is your big example of what should be questioned.

The ADA accepts studies conducted by the floss industry, which represents a conflict of interest.

Decaying food in your mouth damages your teeth and gums.

While people like Jack Black appear to reject all experts.

Because there are so many things that we have no hope of learning through personal experience.

if we didn’t have people who are expert in that particular field providing the information?

Quote from: Timeisup on January 21, 2024, 02:14:58 PM

 How are to we gain insights into various medical questions such as the benefits of vaccination and other areas of health if we didn’t have people who are expert in that particular field providing the information?.

And yet it takes many persons questioning their doctor and seeking a second and third opinion to get to the right diagnosis.

So.  In the Navy.  There were individuals called yeoman whose only job was to keep track of services records.  And yet it was wise to keep copies  of everything because yoeman lose paperwork.

Anyway.  It’s good to question and nobody is invested in you as you.


And even “experts” should be questioned. Why there is OSHA, the FDA, and so on.

Quote from: Timeisup on January 21, 2024, 02:14:58 PM

 It’s just not possible to gain the necessary information to make sensible decisions based on just personal experience.

Funny.  It comes to mind three cases on a conspiracy site where people questioned the official narrative because it was wrong.  And the media published bad facts.


Trump Russian collusion.

For Iran downing Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752, Irans’s false claims were called out and debunked in real time.

For the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital parking lot explosion on 17 October 2023 with debate and examination of available facts, video, pictures, it was very clear the claims it was an Israeli air strike was a lie.  But you can still find news articles citing the Hamas lie.

Quote

An Airstrike At Gaza Hospital Kills Hundreds

OCTOBER 18, 20233:34 PM ET

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1198908542/an-airstrike-at-gaza-hospital-kills-hundreds

The incident was caused by a misfired rocket from Gaza by Palestinian terrorists or Hamas. 

That was three… but also the lie Russia told that a Ukrainian missile took out a Ukrainian POW barracks under Russian control.  All evidence points to an explosion setting off in the barracks and blowing out.


Like or not, Jack made a valid point.  Many scientific discoveries came about because people questioned the experts.

Quote

When life-saving practices are rejected

https://www.trtworld.com/life/7-times-the-medical-establishment-got-it-wrong-167992

Dr Ignaz Semmelweis was a Hungarian obstetrician who theorised in 1850 that physicians transferred perpeural disease — known as childbed fever — to women in the maternity ward due to the common practice of doctors at the hospital delivering babies after conducting barehanded autopsies on diseased corpses.

And as news of his handwashing protocol spread, he was increasingly the target of derision in medical circles throughout Europe. He was regarded as a pariah for challenging the status quo.

Eventually his mental health was called into question and his colleagues had him admitted to a mental hospital where he was beaten. He succumbed to his injuries just days later.

Do you floss?

Quote

Flossing

https://www.trtworld.com/life/7-times-the-medical-establishment-got-it-wrong-167992

A new report officially knocked flossing off its pedestal; a practice universally taught alongside brushing.

The American Dental Association (ADA) has been promoting floss since 1908, however, it has recently emerged there was never any scientific basis for the recommendation.

The ADA accepts studies conducted by the floss industry, which represents a conflict of interest.

For years the ADA was adamant flossing prevents the build-up of plaque, gingivitis and tooth decay.

In an analysis of 25 studies on floss, the AP found most of the studies, which the ADA cited as a basis for their claims, used unreliable methods; carried a "moderate to large potential for bias"; and sometimes tested few participants. One study tested 25 people after only a single use of floss. Some studies lasted a mere two weeks, not a sufficient duration for a cavity or gum disease to develop.

However, Dr Mehmet Ozcomak, a dentist based in Istanbul, told TRT World, he agreed that while flossing does not prevent cavities in and of itself, it "functions indirectly to improve dental health by removing food particles." He went on to say flossing has some value in "preventing tartar build-up."

You should question. You shouldn’t just expect authority. 

I was even taught to question in the navy.

Quote from: Timeisup on January 21, 2024, 02:14:58 PM

How are to we gain insights into various medical questions such as the benefits of vaccination and other areas of health if we didn’t have people who are expert in that particular field providing the information?.

How that OxyContin workout for people?

Quote from: Timeisup on January 21, 2024, 02:14:58 PM

While people like Jack Black appear to reject all experts.

How many times are you planning on repeating this same pathetic lie?

Even when you admit that this lie is contradicted by my actions.

Ultimately, it is not that experts are feared.
Instead, it is that they are not believed 100%.

Often this comes from people not understanding. Often because they were brought up in the kind of religion you promote, where you are simply taught "facts" that experts say, without understanding the justification for these facts (e.g. evidence and arguments for it); and rarely are they exposed to any arguments against it by mainstream education.
This is especially true when they are provided diagrams which are not to scale and don't comprehend that.

Then either just by reading about things themselves, or by seeing a conman intentionally lying to them, they find something which appears to contradict the expert.
This could either be a claim from another expert (or one that appears to be an expert, as after all you pretty much need to be an expert to truly be able to confirm if someone is an expert), or an observation from reality, from their own personal experience.

This puts them into a position where, to them, they have 2 contradictory positions. These positions cannot both be correct so they need to pick one, or reject them both.
If they have the choice between their personal experience, or the claims of someone else, then the natural (and most people would say rational) decision is to reject the claim of the someone else and accept their personal experience.

For example, if an expert told you that you can put your hand in a fire and not get burnt or feel pain; and you then put your hand in a fire and it hurts and you get burnt; are you going to believe the expert, or your personal experience?

This can be moderated by the actions of others, such as through ridicule. Sometimes if you are ridiculed you will pretend to believe things so you don't appear as an outsider, but every time it contradicts your experiences that will likely just reinforce the idea that that claim is fake and your experience is true. It is a case of the Emperor's new clothes.
But that doesn't always work and sometimes that ridicule will result in them just more strongly holding their beliefs and becoming more public about it, especially when people can't address the experience or contradictions that lead to it.

Dogmatic adherence to experts does not lead to knowledge. It leads to wilful ignorance of any knowledge that challenges the status quo.
It would have prevented us from developing Newtonian relativity and then special/general relativity, quantum mechanics, and countless other things.
If we followed your religion for all of time, we would still be believing Earth is flat.

You have disagreement among experts, where some experts will claim one thing and argue for it while other experts claim the opposite and argue for it.

You then have the issue of experts apparently being swayed by political bias or some other bias, with the conclusions not supported the data.
For example, in a paper focusing on transgender people, they examined the brains of a collection of heterosexual males, heterosexual females, M2F trans people and F2M trans people; and the results for the most part demonstrated an apparent spectrum which went in the order HM, M2F, F2M, HF.
They then claimed that this shows trans people are closer to the sex they identify with than their biological sex.
But that clearly makes no sense.
If M2F trans people are closer to females than males, then F2M trans people that are even closer to females, would also need to be closer to females than males.
When things like that happen it is quite clear the experts are not stating facts, but merely their bias.

Then there are plenty of cases where the "experts" have just been flat out wrong, such as the numerous times doctors have gotten diagnoses wrong; or the countless times the weather forecast has been wrong. Not to many how many devices and programs have been produced by "experts" with very significant faults.

This collectively demonstrates that experts are not infallible.
That you cannot simply accept whatever an expert says and reject anything that goes against it to only believe true things.

And that then ties straight back into the above.
If you have an apparent contradiction between an expert and your personal experience, which do you pick? Do you think you must be misunderstanding your experience; or do you pick your experience was true and reject the expert?
And when you have 2 experts contradict each other, what do you pick?

Quote from: Timeisup on January 21, 2024, 02:45:32 AM

Because there are so many things that we have no hope of learning through personal experience.

Which doesn't mean there is nothing we can learn without experts; or through personal experience.

Quote from: Timeisup on January 21, 2024, 02:45:32 AM

if we didn’t have people who are expert in that particular field providing the information?

How did the experts get the information?

There is a very big difference between authority opinion and expert opinion. The two are very very different things and rarely if ever overlap.

When it comes to your medical situation seeking expert medical opinion based on the best data available is always a good idea. Often because of the complexity of medical matters quite often there may well be a difference of opinion.

Dynamic areas of research will always produce differing opinions as the true facts have yet to be established.

Questioning expert opinion based on ignorance is quite pointless

Opinion based on validated mature knowledge, not so much.

You have on numerous occasions rejected and called into question expert opinion.

Are you claiming all the comments you have previously passed on that very subject are false?

Using a nonsensical argument based on so called advice from an ‘expert’ to put one’s hand in a fire clearly demonstrates how out of touch and intellectually corrupt, and dishonest your thinking is.

Continually calling people liars despite the facts saying otherwise is about your level Jack.

There is a very big difference between authority opinion and expert opinion.

Differences are often caused by the boundaries of medical knowledge being pushed back revealing new knowledge as medicine is not a static situation rather it’s a highly dynamic. It’s highly dynamic because of the number and diversity of the various experts working in that area. In medicine new procedures are brought on stream on a regular basis which makes keeping up particularly challenging in many areas of medicine.

795,000 Americans a year die tor are permanently disabled after being misdiagnosed

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2023/07/18/medical-misdiagnosis-killing-disabling-americans/70423573007/#


Strokes are top problem among misdiagnosed conditions

Researchers found strokes that are misdiagnosed are the most serious problem for patients and their families.

Among all cases of stroke, the condition was missed more than 17.5% of the time, researchers said.

One of the main reasons for this is that some people only show dizziness and vertigo as a symptom of stroke, which can, unfortunately, get misdiagnosed as inner ear disease, Newman-Toker said. Or, someone who had a stroke could just have headaches.

Doctors are not being trained across the board on how to differentiate dizziness caused by stroke and the same symptom caused by inner ear disease, he said.

Doctors miss these 5 diseases the most, researchers say

Just five diseases account for nearly 40% of all deaths and permanent disabilities stemming from incorrect diagnoses, according to the report.

◾ Stroke

◾ Sepsis

◾ Pneumonia

◾ Blood clots

◾ Lung cancer

The research arrives at these conclusions by comparing 203 NASA and SpaceX missions which took place between 1963 and 2021. It fins that SpaceX’s platform strategy was ten times cheaper and two times faster than NASA’s bespoke strategy, as well as being less risky and essentially eliminating cost overruns.

https://www.st-annes.ox.ac.uk/prof-bent-flyvbjerg-senior-research-fellow-finds-that-spacex-is-10-times-cheaper-and-2-times-faster-than-nasa-over-a-study-of-203-comparable-missions/#:~:text=The%20research%20arrives%20at%20these,and%20essentially%20eliminating%20cost%20overruns.

Quote from: Smoke Machine link=topic=92161.msg2415221#ms

Flossing is your big example of what should be questioned.

Since you going to play troll.  This was the important part from one of many examples provided.

Quote

The ADA accepts studies conducted by the floss industry, which represents a conflict of interest.

Quote from: Smoke Machine link=topic=92161.msg2415221#ms

Decaying food in your mouth damages your teeth and gums.

Quote where I posted not to do any of the below.

Drink water after you eat.

Brush your teeth.

Use a good mouth wash.

Use a water flosser.

Go to the dentist.

You can even floss if you like.

But if you dink water after you eat, brush, use a good mouthwash, what more will flossing do.  I like to eat an apple after I eat lunch and wash it down with water.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

Just because I choose to playfully disagree with you from time, does not make me a troll.


[/quote

Then add something like this.

😁

Or you ashamed of your emoji’s smile because it doesn’t floss? 

Quote from: Timeisup on January 22, 2024, 01:16:13 AM

There is a very big difference between authority opinion and expert opinion.

Which has nothing to do with someone like a doctor of authority gives their professional diagnosis and sometimes people in reality need a second and third opinion to get the right care.

Don’t you find it ironic you use medical community as example of authority to be trusted, but people are diagnosed with “opinions”.

My concern with the medial community, they are book smart and able to memorise large amounts of information, but that in no way guarantees they have the ability and imagination to see clues and understand the human body as a system to effectively troubleshoot the human body.

Anyway.  I gave you a reasonable post with actual evidence and examples.

My message was quite clear and reasonable. 

Nobody is more invested in you than you.

It is good to have a healthy questioning attitude and a bit of scepticism.  As jack pointed out many scientific breakthroughs came about by challenging the established science and statuesque.  Even human rights have advanced because people challenged authority. 

You shouldn’t blindly follow authority.



If you can’t handle these three little ideas, you’re just lashing out because your butt hurt.

Apply this to flat earth. Every science expert out there is a globe earther. Expert by definition being having a tertiary education or degree in a particular scientific field. Flat Earth may be part of some psychology course as an example, or a study in ancient beliefs in a history course, but there are no flat earth scientists. Sorry, Wise. But, there isn't.

Oh, and Data. It's called dry humour. Emoji's are for sissies.

Bullshit, data. Bullshit!

Not everybody feels the need to shop around the medical community for the opinion which they like the sound of best!

Getting a second opinion from a doctor could save your life

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/getting-a-second-opinion-from-a-doctor-could-save-your-life/

A second opinion from a doctor could give you a second chance at survival, new research shows. The Mayo Clinic study found that as many as 88 percent of patients seeking a second opinion go home with a new or refined diagnosis. Twenty-one percent received a “distinctly different” diagnosis.

Conversely, the study, published in the Journal of Evaluation in Clinical Practice, found that only 12 percent of patients receive confirmation that the original diagnosis was complete and correct.

L
Every person who can question any part of Earth, is a scientist.

Quote

The research arrives at these conclusions by comparing 203 NASA and SpaceX missions which took place between 1963 and 2021. It fins that SpaceX’s platform strategy was ten times cheaper and two times faster than NASA’s bespoke strategy, as well as being less risky and essentially eliminating cost overruns.

https://www.st-annes.ox.ac.uk/prof-bent-flyvbjerg-senior-research-fellow-finds-that-spacex-is-10-times-cheaper-and-2-times-faster-than-nasa-over-a-study-of-203-comparable-missions/#:~:text=The%20research%20arrives%20at%20these,and%20essentially%20eliminating%20cost%20overruns.

What authority is right?

Jack Black is a prime example of someone who has spoon fed these flat earthers hundreds of ways they can easily prove to themselves the experts are all correct sbout the size and shape of the earth. But, really? Does Mr Black expect these flat earthers to devote the rest of their miserable lives doing these experiments just to discover the experts were right all along? Just to discover what they were taught about the globe earth at age 5 was correct all along?

Maybe that's because he sides with flat earthers that expert opinion equals religious doctrine and should be shunned and scorned at all costs.

Every person who can question any part of Earth, is a scientist.

Unfortunately, if you don't toe the line for the status quo then you don't get a certificate of some sort to be classed as a real scientist

There are many issues with that.

Quote from: JackBlack on January 22, 2024, 12:09:55 PM

There are many issues with that.

Wasn’t the point.  The point was for Timeisup to post what “authority” I should go with.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 22, 2024, 03:41:44 PM

Quote from: JackBlack on January 22, 2024, 12:09:55 PM

There are many issues with that.

Wasn’t the point.  The point was for Timeisup to post what “authority” I should go with.

Funny
I asked you the same and you said "radio", "internet chat rooms" and Fox.



Oh the hypocrisy.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on January 22, 2024, 08:35:40 AM

Apply this to flat earth. Every science expert out there is a globe earther. Expert by definition being having a tertiary education or degree in a particular scientific field. Flat Earth may be part of some psychology course as an example, or a study in ancient beliefs in a history course, but there are no flat earth scientists. Sorry, Wise. But, there isn't.

Oh, and Data. It's called dry humour. Emoji's are for sissies.

Every person who can question any part of Earth, is a scientist.
Unfortunately, if you don't toe the line for the status quo then you don't get a certificate of some sort to be classed as a real scientist in the eyes of those who follow the status quo.

As for knowing what scientists out there support a global Earth, you can only guess and apart from that guess can only offer a pretence of knowing any reality as to who subscribes to anything.

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 22, 2024, 09:21:37 AM

L
Every person who can question any part of Earth, is a scientist.

I can force a bowling ball down a lane. How do I density a bowling ball down a lane?  🤔. Mr Scientist?

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 22, 2024, 09:21:37 AM

Every person who can question any part of Earth, is a scientist.

That entirely depends upon how and what exactly you mean by question.

If you mean reject at all costs, then no, that is not really questioning and doesn't make you a scientist.

If instead you question it and honestly investigate and accept answers from reality even when they don't match your beliefs; and actually with logical arguments explaining why your claims about certain models are wrong, then you can be.

You are not a scientist.
You just wilfully reject reality and ignore everything that shows you are wrong.

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 22, 2024, 09:21:37 AM

Unfortunately, if you don't toe the line for the status quo then you don't get a certificate of some sort to be classed as a real scientist

You mean if you repeatedly reject reality without cause and show you fundamentally lack the principles required to be a scientist and do not behave as a scientist, you are unlikely to be classified as one.

No, sceptimatic. Asking a question about the Earth does not magically transform that person into a scientist.

 Plus, a scientist employs the scientific method in their experiments and enquiries.

And no. I'm not only guessing when I say no real scientist is a flat farther, because if any such scientist did exist, Mark Sargent would have found him by now.

You, sceptimatic, are only familiar with your immediate little world around you.
That flattish, stationary environment right in front of you and in your periphery.

 But you also are a part of a much larger world which you want to be an extension of your own little flat world, at all costs.

The sooner you realise flat earth is merely describing your little world around you, you will be able to move beyond these petty forum debates.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 22, 2024, 09:26:09 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 22, 2024, 09:21:37 AM

L
Every person who can question any part of Earth, is a scientist.

I can force a bowling ball down a lane. How do I density a bowling ball down a lane?  🤔. Mr Scientist?

By using your dense mass and forcing the bowling ball to go in that direction.
And yes, I am a scientist.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 22, 2024, 09:26:09 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 22, 2024, 09:21:37 AM

L
Every person who can question any part of Earth, is a scientist.

I can force a bowling ball down a lane. How do I density a bowling ball down a lane?  🤔. Mr Scientist?

By using your dense mass and forcing the bowling ball to go in that direction.
And yes, I am a scientist.

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 22, 2024, 06:29:15 PM

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 22, 2024, 03:41:44 PM

Quote from: JackBlack on January 22, 2024, 12:09:55 PM

There are many issues with that.

Wasn’t the point.  The point was for Timeisup to post what “authority” I should go with.

Funny
I asked you the same and you said "radio", "internet chat rooms" and Fox.



Oh the hypocrisy.

Which has nothing to do with this thread.  And you’re just being a complete troll at this point.