Does the climate change break the ice walls?

Hey Guys! I had a quick question about our Ice Wall. Does climate change effect it in any way? Could it melt? What would happen if it started melting? Should i be worried? Please answer quickly if you can!

Hey Guys! I had a quick question about our Ice Wall. Does climate change effect it in any way? Could it melt? What would happen if it started melting? Should i be worried? Please answer quickly if you can!

Do you live in the penthouse of a skyscraper?

They already are melting as evidenced by sea level rise

There is some argument as to whether 'man made climate change' is a deliberate tactic to being able to explore past the barrier. I guess they figure the rewards of what may be out there is worth the calamity

Using pure logic it's easy to answer this hypothetical.

Anyone saying the oceans will flood if the ice wall melts is just pushing a false narrative and trying to hide the truth.

It's obvious that if the ice wall melts, the oceans will all pour off the side. 

Global warming is probably a plot to reveal Atlantis so they can be attacked.

There may be more land beyond the ice wall if this is the case then the water will rise less because there is more room. but I agree with JJA that it looks like there is more in this then just pollution melting the ice.

The ice wall has to melt to an extent for its height to fall below the sea level before water overflow and pour over the sides. Besides, global warming only cause the central part of the ice wall to melt, while the part further away from us remains intact. Hence it is unlikely that any water will pour over the sides in the foreseeable future.

The ice wall has to melt to an extent for its height to fall below the sea level before water overflow and pour over the sides. Besides, global warming only cause the central part of the ice wall to melt, while the part further away from us remains intact. Hence it is unlikely that any water will pour over the sides in the foreseeable future.

But the ice wall is relatively thin, probably not even a mile thick. Wouldn't take much to melt through that enough for water pressure to break it. Just takes a single crack.

Quote from: Nebulastorm on February 22, 2022, 10:58:11 AM

The ice wall has to melt to an extent for its height to fall below the sea level before water overflow and pour over the sides. Besides, global warming only cause the central part of the ice wall to melt, while the part further away from us remains intact. Hence it is unlikely that any water will pour over the sides in the foreseeable future.

But the ice wall is relatively thin, probably not even a mile thick. Wouldn't take much to melt through that enough for water pressure to break it. Just takes a single crack.

How can you estimaete thicknes?
It could be infiniteyl thick

Hey Guys! I had a quick question about our Ice Wall. Does climate change effect it in any way? Could it melt? What would happen if it started melting? Should i be worried? Please answer quickly if you can!

You can relax in one respect as there is no ice wall as described in the flat earth fictions, so there is nothing to melt.

On the other hand climate change is a reality unfortunately and one that has its root causes in the various greenhouse gasses we have been releasing into the atmosphere since the start of the industrial revolution.

Things unfortunately are only going to get worse, so yes it’s  time to start worrying about the knock on effects of climate change, but not about the melting of a fictional ice wall.

Quote from: JJA on February 22, 2022, 11:25:06 AM

Quote from: Nebulastorm on February 22, 2022, 10:58:11 AM

The ice wall has to melt to an extent for its height to fall below the sea level before water overflow and pour over the sides. Besides, global warming only cause the central part of the ice wall to melt, while the part further away from us remains intact. Hence it is unlikely that any water will pour over the sides in the foreseeable future.

But the ice wall is relatively thin, probably not even a mile thick. Wouldn't take much to melt through that enough for water pressure to break it. Just takes a single crack.

How can you estimaete thicknes?
It could be infiniteyl thick

It's not infinitely think or even half of an infinity thick because the heat transfer to an infinite wall of ice would have frozen us and I'd be very cold right now, which I'm not.

If the ice wall exists it's certainly very thin and fragile and we should all worry.

Why would there be heat transfer?
We re heated by our sun.
Cold is an absense of heat.


Chang eof direction.
If we were in an infinite mass plaen, not above, but in plane since the walls are walls, would the lateral gravity of it all crush us, pull us appart, be net zero?

Are you guys forgetting about the dome?

We melt the ice and the water is still inside the dome, hence the sea level rising. Perhaps after its melted we can physically interact with the dome and try to breach it.

Unless you can think of a way to scale 150ft of an ice wall... No? Well then we have to melt it 

It's not infinitely think or even half of an infinity thick because the heat transfer to an infinite wall of ice would have frozen us and I'd be very cold right now, which I'm not.

If the ice wall exists it's certainly very thin and fragile and we should all worry.

You don't just need a large thermal mass, you need a large rate of heat transfer.
Ice is a good insulator.

If it was just a matter of how much, all the ice would have melted by now.
Instead it acts kind of like a warm house in the middle of a freezing winter, with the heater keeping the house warm but a constant output of heat, which escapes through the walls.

If we were in an infinite mass plaen, not above, but in plane since the walls are walls, would the lateral gravity of it all crush us, pull us appart, be net zero?

That math is hard.
What I can tell you is that there will be a force going outwards towards the ring.
What I can't tell you for certain is if that force is finite or infinite.

According to demos, the force will not be infinite, at least for some dimensions.
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/rklalgzmex
If you have the wall infinitely short, with you in the same plane as the wall, and ignore the constant terms (G, your mass, the area density of the wall, the hypothetical planar Earth beneath you), and take your distance from the centre to be r, then if the inner side of the wall is at 2r, the force will be ~1.746.
If the inner side of the wall is 1.001*r, the force will be ~13.98.
In both cases that is towards the wall closest to you.

The extension would be what would happen to the ring. As the force is finite, I think it should hold itself together.
While each ring would have a force pulling it outwards from all the further out rings, they would also have a force pulling them inwards from the inner rings, meaning no where should get an infinite pressure.
But it might be enough to overcome the yield strength of the ice/Earth, at which point it would be torn apart and crushed into an infinitely large ring.

Ice breaks glass, so why hasn't the ice wall shattered the flat earther's glass dome? Just sayin.....

Ice breaks glass, so why hasn't the ice wall shattered the flat earther's glass dome? Just sayin.....

Pyrex

Quote from: Smoke Machine on February 23, 2022, 03:15:31 AM

Ice breaks glass, so why hasn't the ice wall shattered the flat earther's glass dome? Just sayin.....

Pyrex

Damn it, Pyrex strikes again.  First it was a good thing to use to cook meth and other assorted party favors, now it is keeping us from exploring beyond the dome.

Quote from: JJA on February 22, 2022, 04:11:37 PM

It's not infinitely think or even half of an infinity thick because the heat transfer to an infinite wall of ice would have frozen us and I'd be very cold right now, which I'm not.

If the ice wall exists it's certainly very thin and fragile and we should all worry.

You don't just need a large thermal mass, you need a large rate of heat transfer.
Ice is a good insulator.

If it was just a matter of how much, all the ice would have melted by now.
Instead it acts kind of like a warm house in the middle of a freezing winter, with the heater keeping the house warm but a constant output of heat, which escapes through the walls.

Ice actually is a pretty terrible insulator, about on par with cement. Water is a great conductor of heat however and the ice wall should not be static, and should be either constantly melting or freezing the oceans.

It takes a large amount of energy for water or ice to transition states, so an infinite mass of ice should be able to transfer the heat of the water against it away faster than it could be warmed up to melt. I'd expect an infinite ice wall to freeze the oceans, even with the Sun's energy.  I don't think the sun is capable of heating up all the oceans with that big of a cooling effect surrounding them.

I suppose without knowing the properties of the dome, and if it exists or not and if the atmosphere is also infinite it's impossible to really know for sure what would happen. Curious to ponder, even if there is no evidence to use for data.

Ice actually is a pretty terrible insulator, about on par with cement. Water is a great conductor of heat however and the ice wall should not be static, and should be either constantly melting or freezing the oceans.

It takes a large amount of energy for water or ice to transition states, so an infinite mass of ice should be able to transfer the heat of the water against it away faster than it could be warmed up to melt. I'd expect an infinite ice wall to freeze the oceans, even with the Sun's energy.  I don't think the sun is capable of heating up all the oceans with that big of a cooling effect surrounding them.

I suppose without knowing the properties of the dome, and if it exists or not and if the atmosphere is also infinite it's impossible to really know for sure what would happen. Curious to ponder, even if there is no evidence to use for data.

And cement is also a fairly good insulator. Yes, there are better insulators, and perhaps I didn't explain it well enough.
The insulating properties of ice, combined with the lower density of ice allows water to stay liquid in a lake under a layer of ice.
That alone should already be a good indication that an infinite amount of ice could not freeze the world.

As this is only a finite amount, heat going into it will heat it up and if enough heat could flow into it, it would reach 0 degrees and then melt. Or conversely, if it took enough heat away from the oceans, they would cool to 0 and freeze.

The transfer of heat into ice, when both are at ~0 degrees will be the same, regardless of if that is a finite piece of ice, or an infinite piece of ice, as it is based upon the interaction at that interface.
Giving it more ice behind it will not allow it to take in more heat.

The fact that all the ice in the world is not at 0 degrees, without an infinite amount of ice to keep it cold, shows that an infinite amount of ice won't be able to take all the heat from Earth, not while we still have sources of heat.

Quote from: JJA on February 23, 2022, 06:24:38 AM

Ice actually is a pretty terrible insulator, about on par with cement. Water is a great conductor of heat however and the ice wall should not be static, and should be either constantly melting or freezing the oceans.

It takes a large amount of energy for water or ice to transition states, so an infinite mass of ice should be able to transfer the heat of the water against it away faster than it could be warmed up to melt. I'd expect an infinite ice wall to freeze the oceans, even with the Sun's energy.  I don't think the sun is capable of heating up all the oceans with that big of a cooling effect surrounding them.

I suppose without knowing the properties of the dome, and if it exists or not and if the atmosphere is also infinite it's impossible to really know for sure what would happen. Curious to ponder, even if there is no evidence to use for data.

And cement is also a fairly good insulator. Yes, there are better insulators, and perhaps I didn't explain it well enough.
The insulating properties of ice, combined with the lower density of ice allows water to stay liquid in a lake under a layer of ice.
That alone should already be a good indication that an infinite amount of ice could not freeze the world.

As this is only a finite amount, heat going into it will heat it up and if enough heat could flow into it, it would reach 0 degrees and then melt. Or conversely, if it took enough heat away from the oceans, they would cool to 0 and freeze.

The transfer of heat into ice, when both are at ~0 degrees will be the same, regardless of if that is a finite piece of ice, or an infinite piece of ice, as it is based upon the interaction at that interface.
Giving it more ice behind it will not allow it to take in more heat.

The fact that all the ice in the world is not at 0 degrees, without an infinite amount of ice to keep it cold, shows that an infinite amount of ice won't be able to take all the heat from Earth, not while we still have sources of heat.

The earth has internal heat, according to RE theory but who knows what foes on with a FE model. Regardless, heat loss if from the surface due to ice floating. 

I think the key difference would be an ice wall extending down to the ocean floor, this could pull heat from the bottom, freezing water that would the float up and allowing the entire ocean to freeze solid.

If there is nothing out there beyond the wall, the ice would likely be at absolute zero so assuming the ice would be at freezing I think is estimating too high, it would likely be close to 0 kelvin.

Without running the math and making a model I'm not sure I have enough confidence to know if that would be enough to freeze the Earth solid.  Depends on how much energy that tiny sun is putting out.

This would be interesting to see worked out... An ice sheet, finite in depth but infinite in lateral expanse, has a heat source above a certain specific area. How substantial of a heat source would be needed to keep the system in a sort of quasi-steady state where it could exist for as long as the heat source maintains its output. Forget about how likely that premise is to actually occur, accept we're living in a world where this is just understood to be true for a minute.

That seems like a neat question to me. There's no Great Accelerator in this scenario, at least I wouldn't think so, because it would be like JD's infinite plane. At least the way I'm envisioning it. That would likely mean no additional heat being added in via the accelerator. I guess radioactive heat could still add a bit more from underground, but that might affect the stability of the whole system if the interface between the rock and the ice isn't kept cold enough to maintain the ice, so it probably can't contribute too very much - imagine if the ice sheet could just sort of slide around, that seems bad. I'm pretty sure most of the heat energy would need to come from directly over the melted area.

I can't imagine a scenario where this creates conditions that look anything like what we see on Earth, but I wonder if there are a set of conditions that would allow the world in the thought experiment to exist.

Theres an infinite heat capacity does not necesaarily mean the heat will be sucked out of the heat source.
As long as heat is produced and rejected it will radiate out regardless of any medium nearby to obsorb.

I wonder what software could simulate this on a large scale.  I am now curious as well.

Assuming a motionless and steady heat source, you might be able to take a shortcut and just simulate a thin slice since it will be radially symmetrical.  It wouldn't give you an exact value but would be a lot faster to calculate.

Anyone happen to have a license for something like this?  I'm not willing to fork out $4000 + modules. 

https://www.comsol.com/heat-transfer-module

I wonder what software could simulate this on a large scale.  I am now curious as well.

Assuming a motionless and steady heat source, you might be able to take a shortcut and just simulate a thin slice since it will be radially symmetrical.  It wouldn't give you an exact value but would be a lot faster to calculate.

Anyone happen to have a license for something like this?  I'm not willing to fork out $4000 + modules. 

https://www.comsol.com/heat-transfer-module

Regarding the motionless part, that's probably a more idealized version that I was thinking but it would prove the possibility. If the heat source could move slightly to simulate day/night cycles and some semblance of seasons, that would be a neat extra thing to model. Serves absolutely no practical purpose whatsoever that I can come up with, but it just got me pondering.

Quote from: JJA on February 23, 2022, 04:12:34 PM

I wonder what software could simulate this on a large scale.  I am now curious as well.

Assuming a motionless and steady heat source, you might be able to take a shortcut and just simulate a thin slice since it will be radially symmetrical.  It wouldn't give you an exact value but would be a lot faster to calculate.

Anyone happen to have a license for something like this?  I'm not willing to fork out $4000 + modules. 

https://www.comsol.com/heat-transfer-module

Regarding the motionless part, that's probably a more idealized version that I was thinking but it would prove the possibility. If the heat source could move slightly to simulate day/night cycles and some semblance of seasons, that would be a neat extra thing to model. Serves absolutely no practical purpose whatsoever that I can come up with, but it just got me pondering.

Something like https://freefem.org/ might work.  Seems to have all the required functionality but for something Earth sized it might be very slow even for a 2d slice, since it's written in Java.  But it's free.

Downloaded, I will check this program out. Thank you sir!

Quote from: Smoke Machine on February 23, 2022, 03:15:31 AM

Ice breaks glass, so why hasn't the ice wall shattered the flat earther's glass dome? Just sayin.....

Pyrex

It's safe to say the dome is not made of glass or pyrex.

First, any dome the size the flat earth model demands, will have a weight pressing down on the flat earth. The weight would be astronomical, the thickness would be kilometres, the pressure applied to the flat earth where the dome meets the ground would be incredible. No ice could withstand such a pressure. Unless the dome extends down the sides of the flat earth and attaches to the sides or underneath?

Second, what's the need for the dome to be transparent anyway, if nothing exists outside the dome, and stars, planets, moons, etc., are merely luminaries on the ceiling of the dome? The dome could be made of metal, rock, or anything else you can think of.

Flatearthfiddler (choose an alt), do you have any input on these serious matters?

Quote from: Bullwinkle on February 23, 2022, 03:54:49 AM

Quote from: Smoke Machine on February 23, 2022, 03:15:31 AM

Ice breaks glass, so why hasn't the ice wall shattered the flat earther's glass dome? Just sayin.....

Pyrex

Damn it, Pyrex strikes again.  First it was a good thing to use to cook meth and other assorted party favors, now it is keeping us from exploring beyond the dome.

   

I have a 2 liter Pyrex Erlenmeyer glass and a magnetic stirrer plate for growing mushroom fungus.   I like the cool beauty of the exotic crop.

Websites make it seem almost impossible unless you buy their tools.   
It's not as complicated as kit sellers want to charge you for. 
Found out the hard way. 

Inside you can grow anything.   
Outside there's a 'shroom for your zone.   Start out with Oyster Mushrooms. 
They grow anywhere. 

Anyone want links?



Also, this is strong glass from SCG . . .