War

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-pullout-meets-uk-scepticism-ukraine-defence-website-still-hacked-2022-02-16/

So they're now at 170,000 troops and they're advanced towards the Ukrainian border.

Maybe they know a shortcut to get home that goes through Ukraine.

Communists during the Greek civil war received very little external support. Basically the only support there was was limited supply of weapons, as well as helping communist forces find shelter on the other side of the borders. They asked for more support but the USSR was not interested in giving it to them at that point. The main external agents involved in the conflict were the UK and later the US (fun fact, the Greek civil war was considered to have been one of the first times Napalm bombs were used, some people think it was the first but in fact they had seen limited use during late WWII). Yugoslavia wasn't "more independent", it was pretty much completely independent after a certain point. Yugoslavia was its own thing, as was Albania and Romania eventually. They were not USSR satellite states, and at some points even had pretty bad relations with the USSR.

But you did touch on something important. The Greek government wasn't worried about a Russian invasion. It was more worried about INTERNAL conflicts with communists, and it wanted to align with the western bloc. Similarly, Spain for example had no borders with USSR aligned countries at all, but faced potential internal conflicts and wanted to take a side.

It was most definitely not evenly matched. At no point did the USSR have remotely as much power as NATO.

But what governments were worried about was mostly the internal threat. The entire idea was to keep communists away from power, since in many countries including Greece, they had pretty broad support (especially in Italy where they seemed very likely to win, which eventually led to Operation Gladio and similar operations).

It was an expected response, but not a legitimate response, as they ended up occupying a large part of Cyprus which they basically ethnically cleansed of its majority by forcing them out of their homes and replacing them with populations imported from Turkey, not to talk about the war crimes (although the other side also committed numerous). At the end of the day, they split an island nation which had never been split in history in two.

There was actually two invasions, the first captured a very small part of the island, they didn't like the terms in the negotiations so they invaded again (after the junta in Greece had collapsed) and captured about a third of it and created a Turkish Cypriot state, when they ostensibly were trying to protect the integrity and independence of Cyprus. But overall I consider both the Greek junta-Greek Cypriot EOKA-B and Turkey to be at fault for what happened.

Through it all NATO just didn't really care at all because the point was never to protect countries from external threats, it was to expand the reach of the western bloc and restrict communism. Similarly now the US cares about restricting Russia. But when Turkey invaded Cyprus, or when their puppet government ordered to coup Makarios, they didn't care. Like, seriously, why is the Donetsk/Crimea situation, a conflict between non-NATO countries so important for NATO but the invasion and occupation of Northern Cyprus, a conflict between 2 NATO countries and one that isn't technically in NATO isn't?

I frankly consider it ridiculous that there are such conflicts between NATO countries and yet we're supposed to take NATO seriously as a defensive mechanism. Like, Erdogan is disputing Aegean islands, is trying to reopen Varosha in Cyprus (which is currently a ghost town since it's on a "dead zone" following negotiations) and regularly violating Greek airspace. NATO doesn't do nearly enough to resolve the conflict and that's between NATO countries (tbh that's probably for the better because if they did they'd probably mess it up). France and the US simply use the conflict to make Greece buy weapons from them. On the one hand I understand they don't want to alienate Turkey. So why do they want to alienate Russia so bad?

Also, supposedly NATO can only operate if a NATO country has been attacked. But if that is the case, why was Yugoslavia bombed when no NATO countries were attacked? Kinda makes the mission statement look ridiculous.

The generally accepted soviet satellites were Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and East Germany.  Albania is sometimes included in the list.  Yugoslavia was closely allied for a few years before breaking away.  I believe support for Greek communists was one of the disagreements for Stalin and Tito falling out.  So Greece did have one satellite on its borders for a very long time.

Economically they weren’t a match, but close militarily.  The US always had a lot more navy, while the red army had a massive ground capabilities.  The USSR also overtook the US’s nuclear stockpile.  But with the US being by far the biggest military power in NATO and on another continent, they were never in a good position to just park 100000 troops on a European border to apply pressure like Russia could.  And still can apparently.

Yeah, maybe a little to do with communist habits of gaining “pretty broad” support, and enough power to knock over democratically elected governments, purge the opposition and going all totalitarian.  As opposed to gaining majority support and keeping it through free elections.

As for the NATO thing, the NATO bloc has specific geopolitical aims. If you are opposed to these aims, then I don't see why one should support its expansion and strategic aims.

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 06:38:04 AM

As for the NATO thing, the NATO bloc has specific geopolitical aims. If you are opposed to these aims, then I don't see why one should support its expansion and strategic aims.

That doesn't mean anyone who opposes NATO can just invade another country and take their land.

NATO is just one excuse among many for Putin to take what he wants.  He wants all the former Soviet states back. He will lie and do anything it takes to get them.

Quote from: JJA on February 17, 2022, 06:42:01 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 06:38:04 AM

As for the NATO thing, the NATO bloc has specific geopolitical aims. If you are opposed to these aims, then I don't see why one should support its expansion and strategic aims.

That doesn't mean anyone who opposes NATO can just invade another country and take their land.

NATO is just one excuse among many for Putin to take what he wants.  He wants all the former Soviet states back. He will lie and do anything it takes to get them.

That's not what I said and I'm not sure what it has to do with the rest of my post.

Also Russia certainly is not trying to take back all the Soviet states. I mean if that was what they wanted and were just looking for an excuse they could have taken Azerbaijan a couple years ago but they didn't and they won't because that would be ridiculously hard to hold and somewhat pointless.

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 06:49:23 AM

Quote from: JJA on February 17, 2022, 06:42:01 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 06:38:04 AM

As for the NATO thing, the NATO bloc has specific geopolitical aims. If you are opposed to these aims, then I don't see why one should support its expansion and strategic aims.

That doesn't mean anyone who opposes NATO can just invade another country and take their land.

NATO is just one excuse among many for Putin to take what he wants.  He wants all the former Soviet states back. He will lie and do anything it takes to get them.

That's not what I said and I'm not sure what it has to do with the rest of my post.

Also Russia certainly is not trying to take back all the Soviet states. I mean if that was what they wanted and were just looking for an excuse they could have taken Azerbaijan a couple years ago but they didn't and they won't because that would be ridiculously hard to hold and somewhat pointless.

Are you saying Putin doesn't want them all back because he hasn't successfully taken them all yet?  He's certainly working down the list pretty well for someone who doesn't care and like anyone smart is taking the easy ones first.

I don't really know what "want" means in this case. Would whoever governs Thailand want to own China? Idk, maybe. Who knows. Doesn't matter. Maybe Putin theoretically would want to take over all these countries, the important thing is if Russia actively pursuits that.

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 08:40:55 AM

I don't really know what "want" means in this case. Would whoever governs Thailand want to own China? Idk, maybe. Who knows. Doesn't matter. Maybe Putin theoretically would want to take over all these countries, the important thing is if Russia actively pursuits that.

Georga. Crimera. Donbas. Now Ukrane.

I'd say he is actively pursuing that.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/shelling-breaks-out-east-ukraine-west-moscow-dispute-troop-moves-2022-02-17/

Pro Russian forces have shelled a kindergarten.  I assume it was when the kindergarten was closed or we'd be hearing about a lot of dead kids.  Hard to verify since, you know, explosions.

It's sort of looking like the pro russian forces are trying to goad Ukraine into attacking them so that Putin can heroically save the day by invading Ukraine.

Quote from: JJA on February 17, 2022, 09:45:41 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 08:40:55 AM

I don't really know what "want" means in this case. Would whoever governs Thailand want to own China? Idk, maybe. Who knows. Doesn't matter. Maybe Putin theoretically would want to take over all these countries, the important thing is if Russia actively pursuits that.

Georga. Crimera. Donbas. Now Ukrane.

I'd say he is actively pursuing that.

What do you mean "Donbas. Now Ukraine"? Donbas is Ukraine. So was Crimea when that happened. Unless you're suddenly agreeing with the separatists lol

Also were you intentionally trying to misspell every name? Lol

It was speculation on my part.  The reporting on it is very shaky so who knows.

Shelling an empty kindergarten seems like something you would intentionally do to make the other side make a move while later claiming that since there were no kids in there that that essentially they've starting a war over some property damage.

Or it could have been an accident.

Or the report could be mistaken.

They should probably stop shooting at each other casually if they want to deescalate but maybe this is just normal stuff at the border between hostile forces.

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 09:59:18 AM

Quote from: JJA on February 17, 2022, 09:45:41 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 08:40:55 AM

I don't really know what "want" means in this case. Would whoever governs Thailand want to own China? Idk, maybe. Who knows. Doesn't matter. Maybe Putin theoretically would want to take over all these countries, the important thing is if Russia actively pursuits that.

Georga. Crimera. Donbas. Now Ukrane.

I'd say he is actively pursuing that.

What do you mean "Donbas. Now Ukraine"? Donbas is Ukraine. So was Crimea when that happened. Unless you're suddenly agreeing with the separatists lol

Also were you intentionally trying to misspell every name? Lol

I'm just being lazy. Fine.

"First Crimea , then Donbas, now the rest of Ukraine."

Better?

Someone told me that making fun of spelling and grammar mistakes was racist. Just sayin.

Spelling errors and lazy wording doesn't change the fact that Putin has been aggressively collecting his former territories by force.  Not sure how you can claim otherwise since there are now several parts of Russia that didn't used to be before he sent in the troops.

Quote from: JJA on February 17, 2022, 11:00:57 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 09:59:18 AM

Quote from: JJA on February 17, 2022, 09:45:41 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 08:40:55 AM

I don't really know what "want" means in this case. Would whoever governs Thailand want to own China? Idk, maybe. Who knows. Doesn't matter. Maybe Putin theoretically would want to take over all these countries, the important thing is if Russia actively pursuits that.

Georga. Crimera. Donbas. Now Ukrane.

I'd say he is actively pursuing that.

What do you mean "Donbas. Now Ukraine"? Donbas is Ukraine. So was Crimea when that happened. Unless you're suddenly agreeing with the separatists lol

Also were you intentionally trying to misspell every name? Lol

I'm just being lazy. Fine.

"First Crimea , then Donbas, now the rest of Ukraine."

Better?

Someone told me that making fun of spelling and grammar mistakes was racist. Just sayin.

Spelling errors and lazy wording doesn't change the fact that Putin has been aggressively collecting his former territories by force.  Not sure how you can claim otherwise since there are now several parts of Russia that didn't used to be before he sent in the troops.

There's Crimea. I'm not sure what else there is.

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 11:16:16 AM

Quote from: JJA on February 17, 2022, 11:00:57 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 09:59:18 AM

Quote from: JJA on February 17, 2022, 09:45:41 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 08:40:55 AM

I don't really know what "want" means in this case. Would whoever governs Thailand want to own China? Idk, maybe. Who knows. Doesn't matter. Maybe Putin theoretically would want to take over all these countries, the important thing is if Russia actively pursuits that.

Georga. Crimera. Donbas. Now Ukrane.

I'd say he is actively pursuing that.

What do you mean "Donbas. Now Ukraine"? Donbas is Ukraine. So was Crimea when that happened. Unless you're suddenly agreeing with the separatists lol

Also were you intentionally trying to misspell every name? Lol

I'm just being lazy. Fine.

"First Crimea , then Donbas, now the rest of Ukraine."

Better?

Someone told me that making fun of spelling and grammar mistakes was racist. Just sayin.

Spelling errors and lazy wording doesn't change the fact that Putin has been aggressively collecting his former territories by force.  Not sure how you can claim otherwise since there are now several parts of Russia that didn't used to be before he sent in the troops.

There's Crimea. I'm not sure what else there is.

Georga.  And they have been sending troops into Ukraine's Donbas region.

Those aren't the actions of someone not interested in taking back old territories.  That's two countries he has invaded and taken their land.  What else do you need?

Quote from: JJA on February 17, 2022, 12:39:42 PM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 11:16:16 AM

Quote from: JJA on February 17, 2022, 11:00:57 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 09:59:18 AM

Quote from: JJA on February 17, 2022, 09:45:41 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 08:40:55 AM

I don't really know what "want" means in this case. Would whoever governs Thailand want to own China? Idk, maybe. Who knows. Doesn't matter. Maybe Putin theoretically would want to take over all these countries, the important thing is if Russia actively pursuits that.

Georga. Crimera. Donbas. Now Ukrane.

I'd say he is actively pursuing that.

What do you mean "Donbas. Now Ukraine"? Donbas is Ukraine. So was Crimea when that happened. Unless you're suddenly agreeing with the separatists lol

Also were you intentionally trying to misspell every name? Lol

I'm just being lazy. Fine.

"First Crimea , then Donbas, now the rest of Ukraine."

Better?

Someone told me that making fun of spelling and grammar mistakes was racist. Just sayin.

Spelling errors and lazy wording doesn't change the fact that Putin has been aggressively collecting his former territories by force.  Not sure how you can claim otherwise since there are now several parts of Russia that didn't used to be before he sent in the troops.

There's Crimea. I'm not sure what else there is.

Georga.  And they have been sending troops into Ukraine's Donbas region.

Those aren't the actions of someone not interested in taking back old territories.  That's two countries he has invaded and taken their land.  What else do you need?

When did they annex "Georga"?

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 02:02:20 PM

Quote from: JJA on February 17, 2022, 12:39:42 PM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 11:16:16 AM

Quote from: JJA on February 17, 2022, 11:00:57 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 09:59:18 AM

Quote from: JJA on February 17, 2022, 09:45:41 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 08:40:55 AM

I don't really know what "want" means in this case. Would whoever governs Thailand want to own China? Idk, maybe. Who knows. Doesn't matter. Maybe Putin theoretically would want to take over all these countries, the important thing is if Russia actively pursuits that.

Georga. Crimera. Donbas. Now Ukrane.

I'd say he is actively pursuing that.

What do you mean "Donbas. Now Ukraine"? Donbas is Ukraine. So was Crimea when that happened. Unless you're suddenly agreeing with the separatists lol

Also were you intentionally trying to misspell every name? Lol

I'm just being lazy. Fine.

"First Crimea , then Donbas, now the rest of Ukraine."

Better?

Someone told me that making fun of spelling and grammar mistakes was racist. Just sayin.

Spelling errors and lazy wording doesn't change the fact that Putin has been aggressively collecting his former territories by force.  Not sure how you can claim otherwise since there are now several parts of Russia that didn't used to be before he sent in the troops.

There's Crimea. I'm not sure what else there is.

Georga.  And they have been sending troops into Ukraine's Donbas region.

Those aren't the actions of someone not interested in taking back old territories.  That's two countries he has invaded and taken their land.  What else do you need?

When did they annex "Georga"?

If this debate has shrunk down to simply pointing out my spelling issues, then I suppose we are done here.

Quote from: JJA on February 17, 2022, 02:13:02 PM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 02:02:20 PM

Quote from: JJA on February 17, 2022, 12:39:42 PM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 11:16:16 AM

Quote from: JJA on February 17, 2022, 11:00:57 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 09:59:18 AM

Quote from: JJA on February 17, 2022, 09:45:41 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 17, 2022, 08:40:55 AM

I don't really know what "want" means in this case. Would whoever governs Thailand want to own China? Idk, maybe. Who knows. Doesn't matter. Maybe Putin theoretically would want to take over all these countries, the important thing is if Russia actively pursuits that.

Georga. Crimera. Donbas. Now Ukrane.

I'd say he is actively pursuing that.

What do you mean "Donbas. Now Ukraine"? Donbas is Ukraine. So was Crimea when that happened. Unless you're suddenly agreeing with the separatists lol

Also were you intentionally trying to misspell every name? Lol

I'm just being lazy. Fine.

"First Crimea , then Donbas, now the rest of Ukraine."

Better?

Someone told me that making fun of spelling and grammar mistakes was racist. Just sayin.

Spelling errors and lazy wording doesn't change the fact that Putin has been aggressively collecting his former territories by force.  Not sure how you can claim otherwise since there are now several parts of Russia that didn't used to be before he sent in the troops.

There's Crimea. I'm not sure what else there is.

Georga.  And they have been sending troops into Ukraine's Donbas region.

Those aren't the actions of someone not interested in taking back old territories.  That's two countries he has invaded and taken their land.  What else do you need?

When did they annex "Georga"?

If this debate has shrunk down to simply pointing out my spelling issues, then I suppose we are done here.

Alright, when did they annex Georgia?

On 7 August 2008 Russia invaded Georgia, violating international law and flouting the principles enshrined in the Helsinki Final Act, including sovereignty, territorial integrity, and the non-use of force. Coming a few months after the Bucharest Summit, where NATO promised Georgia a seat at its table, it was a clear message that Moscow would not tolerate Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic integration aspirations. Yet, rather than sanctioning Russia for this act of aggression, the West gave Russia a second chance and offered a “reset” in ties. This was a major error.

Thirteen years on, 20% of Georgia remains occupied. Russia has not implemented crucial elements of the 2008 six-point ceasefire agreement, including withdrawing its forces to pre-conflict positions. Instead, Moscow has increased its political, economic and social influence in the occupied territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The populations of both have become more isolated and susceptible to Russian disinformation and propaganda. The COVID pandemic reinforced this trend.

Russia has also strengthened its military presence. Both territories have become large military bases that Moscow uses to project power across the region. Today, between 9,000 and 10,000 Russian soldiers are deployed. Furthermore, creeping annexation continues along the Administrative Boundary Line (ABL). Georgian territory is being eked away cm-by-cm. This situation has also resulted in the ongoing arbitrary detention of Georgian citizens.

Ukraine: Putin to personally oversee huge nuclear drills on Saturday amid tension
Russia confirmed that President Vladimir Putin will personally oversee military drills involving “strategic forces” on Saturday. The exercise will include multiple practice launches of intercontinental ballistic missiles and cruise missiles, the country's defense ministry said.

Germany now says they think Russia is more likely to do a false flag but not invade. I'm not entirely sure why they'd do a false flag to not invade.

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 18, 2022, 10:10:15 AM

Germany now says they think Russia is more likely to do a false flag but not invade. I'm not entirely sure why they'd do a false flag to not invade.

The only reason I can think of is that Putin is enjoying the panic.

Explosions in eastern Ukraine prompt increased tensions with the US
On Friday, Russian state media reported a car bomb in Donetsk, Ukraine, an area from which pro-Russian rebels were reportedly evacuating people to Russia, according to reporting from the Financial Times. The US State Department spokesperson said earlier on Friday that the shelling in the area was a "false flag operation" and was being used to distract people from understanding Russia "is the aggressor in this conflict," says Voice of America reporting. US President Joe Biden is expected to discuss the matter with NATO leaders on Friday and speak on the situation publicly, The Associated Press reports. Russia is set to run several practice drills involving its intercontinental ballistic and cruise missiles on Saturday, according to AP, adding to fear of an invasion.

You're only talking about the US, but there was also major European powers...

They gained pretty broad support in Italy and France for some time. But it wasn't really possible to win in elections, especially in Greece, where they were kind of, you know, outlawed. I mean obviously the concern wasn't free elections or whatever, it was whose side prevails, since there simply weren't free elections or much in the semblance of democratic governance in the supported regimes. All of it was a pretext. Communists didn't pretend they just wanted to win liberal elections, since they explicitly opposed that system. But the liberals didn't really care about the elections and "democracy" either, they only cared about them as long as they could make sure the communists wouldn't win and they would be able to implement what they wanted.

As for the NATO thing, the NATO bloc has specific geopolitical aims. If you are opposed to these aims, then I don't see why one should support its expansion and strategic aims. Even if they are "technically" not "in the wrong" in one specific thing, it's not a good thing because it's gonna help them do all the other stuff.

You have to look at the bigger picture instead of the very specific incidents.

The EU and US have very stupidly helped increase the tension around Ukraine for years now.

I don't understand why I have to support that. I also don't understand why I have to support the horrible Ukrainian nationalists who have almost dominated the political scene since 2014 and are acting horribly towards ethnic minorities, and I don't understand why I have to support Putin and his puppet governments.

Finally I don't understand the justification of NATO intervening in this and dragging us into war

Nice try, but liberal democracies do actually practice democracy, with the likes of elections, free press, right to protest, etc. if not always perfectly. 

NATO's fundamental goal is to safeguard the Allies' freedom and security by political and military means.

Not sure what the problem with that is, so it seems very much a question of how to go about it.

Does include the bigger picture that letting Putin get away with this bullshit, not only is he likely to push further, but China will be emboldened to make a move on Taiwan.  But fuck Taiwan too, right?

I believe it’s Russia that annexed part of it and have active military forces in their borders supporting separatists.  You know that the interim Ukraine government intended to stay neutral and on friendly terms with Russia

Again that would be Putin threatening to plunge Europe into war.