Dem Watch 2020

Now the situation is reversed for Trump from 2016.

Instead of his election to win, it's his to lose.

Don't Hillary this Trump.

Out of curiosity why do you prefer Trump to Biden?

Quote from: Bom Tishop on April 08, 2020, 12:18:13 PM

Now the situation is reversed for Trump from 2016.

Instead of his election to win, it's his to lose.

Don't Hillary this Trump.

Out of curiosity why do you prefer Trump to Biden?

Mainly because the economy was the best it's ever been. Whether it's his policies or just a subconscious thing for the country, it works. Biden will quickly reverse that again with either policy or just being him.

He won't cave to the bleeding heart liberals and their nonsense like Biden.... Could only imagine the dumb shit he would pass for them.

Trump isn't 100 percent there mentally, but Biden I don't think is even 10 percent left in the tank. They guy has lost it, and it's only gonna get worse when you add the stress of a presidency.

He is the devil I know...stay off Twitter and ignore his press meetings (though sometimes either is fun when he trolls at times). Biden, I have no idea what that nut will be like.

I can go on if you care, but that's the biggest ones.


Oh and the fact he is fairly certain a pedophile, that's not a selling point either. Either between age or having more power, that damn volcano is waiting to erupt. Least Trump only harasses woman of age lol.

The pedo thing is news to me.

But the economy... we're officially in a recession which will probably turn into a depression.  The economy is now officially worse under Trump than Obama.

The pedo thing is news to me.

But the economy... we're officially in a recession which will probably turn into a depression.  The economy is now officially worse under Trump than Obama.

You don't have to tell me that, I am 90 percent closed.

If it goes past beginning of May it will officially turn to a depression.

Businesses and people who aren't blinded liberals we see it's obviously not Trump's fault what so ever.

I would have voted Wang, but he isn't an option so Trump it is.

Businesses and people who aren't blinded liberals we see it's obviously not Trump's fault what so ever.

So you're saying that Trump hasn't completely bungled his handling of the covid pandemic?

Quote from: Crouton on April 08, 2020, 01:30:14 PM

The pedo thing is news to me.

But the economy... we're officially in a recession which will probably turn into a depression.  The economy is now officially worse under Trump than Obama.

You don't have to tell me that, I am 90 percent closed.

If it goes past beginning of May it will officially turn to a depression.

Businesses and people who aren't blinded liberals we see it's obviously not Trump's fault what so ever.

So Trump gets to own any economic success but any downturn is not something he needs to take responsibility for?  Seems like a bit of a double standard to me.

As far as handling this situation.  The governors have been doing most of the heavy lifting here.  Any success at mitigating this has been done by the states.  Trump has mostly been denying reality and blaming the liberals.

He already said he doesn't take any responsibility at all!

Biden is a centrist, if anything we'd just have more of the same but with better Supreme Court picks. It is not good for the country to tilt too far in either direction.

Quote from: Bom Tishop on April 08, 2020, 01:40:38 PM

Quote from: Crouton on April 08, 2020, 01:30:14 PM

The pedo thing is news to me.

But the economy... we're officially in a recession which will probably turn into a depression.  The economy is now officially worse under Trump than Obama.

You don't have to tell me that, I am 90 percent closed.

If it goes past beginning of May it will officially turn to a depression.

Businesses and people who aren't blinded liberals we see it's obviously not Trump's fault what so ever.

So Trump gets to own any economic success but any downturn is not something he needs to take responsibility for?  Seems like a bit of a double standard to me.

As far as handling this situation.  The governors have been doing most of the heavy lifting here.  Any success at mitigating this has been done by the states.  Trump has mostly been denying reality and blaming the liberals.

To markjo as well.... What was Trump supposed to do? He did a two trillion dollars stimulus... What else can you do? The only thing I hold everyone at fault for (leadership) is the shut downs. It made it much worse dragging it out, should have just shut down everything for three weeks at the start like ripping off a band-aid, just do it and get it over with.

As for blaming Trump for a virus the shit heads in China concocted... What? How is he to blame? That's liberal nonsense. I didn't blame Obama for the Bush recession etc.

I also compared our recent good times to all other good times, still the best.

It is not good for the country to tilt too far in either direction.

Agreed

If Trump was more focused on protecting the country and people and less about dumb lib conspiracies that the virus was a hoax to impeach him or other such rubbish, America could have weathered this shit a lot better. Literally thousands of people could still be alive right now if not for Trumps ineptness and ego.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/contrary-to-trumps-claim-a-pandemic-was-widely-expected-at-some-point/

Trump was warned. He had the tools. He had the handbook. He had the equipment. America could have been sitting pretty right now and the pain to the millions losing their jobs and the stock market crashing to hell is on Trumps administration. No amount of lying will change that. There was always going to be jobs lost because of social distancing and people dying because people would always catch it - but look at the extent because Trump was in full denial for so long.

You guys still haven't peaked. Soon enough you guys will be thinking 'Gee 2000 deaths today would seem small' 

To markjo as well.... What was Trump supposed to do?

He was supposed to listen to his intelligence people back in November when they said that CV was heading our way so that he could prepare accordingly.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/intelligence-report-warned-coronavirus-crisis-early-november-sources/story?id=70031273

Quote from: Crouton on April 08, 2020, 02:01:31 PM

Quote from: Bom Tishop on April 08, 2020, 01:40:38 PM

Quote from: Crouton on April 08, 2020, 01:30:14 PM

The pedo thing is news to me.

But the economy... we're officially in a recession which will probably turn into a depression.  The economy is now officially worse under Trump than Obama.

You don't have to tell me that, I am 90 percent closed.

If it goes past beginning of May it will officially turn to a depression.

Businesses and people who aren't blinded liberals we see it's obviously not Trump's fault what so ever.

So Trump gets to own any economic success but any downturn is not something he needs to take responsibility for?  Seems like a bit of a double standard to me.

As far as handling this situation.  The governors have been doing most of the heavy lifting here.  Any success at mitigating this has been done by the states.  Trump has mostly been denying reality and blaming the liberals.

To markjo as well.... What was Trump supposed to do? He did a two trillion dollars stimulus... What else can you do? The only thing I hold everyone at fault for (leadership) is the shut downs. It made it much worse dragging it out, should have just shut down everything for three weeks at the start like ripping off a band-aid, just do it and get it over with.

As for blaming Trump for a virus the shit heads in China concocted... What? How is he to blame? That's liberal nonsense. I didn't blame Obama for the Bush recession etc.

I also compared our recent good times to all other good times, still the best.

Congress did a 2 trillion stimulus package.  Trump's contribution to it is to try to wet his beak in it to save his hotel chain.  And the stimulus package, by the way, sucks.  Most of it goes to corporations to prop up stocks.

For an example of what to do in this situation see South Korea.  They listened to their experts.  They learned what they could from China.  They acted quickly and decisively.  And their results are vastly better than ours.

Trump did the exact opposite.  He ignored his experts.  He crippled the agencies responsible for dealing with these situations.  When infections started he called it a hoax by the democrats to remove him from office. 

Even now the situation from the White House is chaos.  He's bidding against the states for medical supplies.  Do you understand how dysfunctional this is? 

Honestly we'd be better off if he just sat this one out and golfed.

So the delusional old guy dropped out. Was about time!

Still it's really sad that the democrats now have another delusional old guy running against trump, already well known to lose....

Congress did a 2 trillion stimulus package.  Trump's contribution to it is to try to wet his beak in it to save his hotel chain.  And the stimulus package, by the way, sucks.  Most of it goes to corporations to prop up stocks.

I get confused why people think saving the companies that employ all the people are a bad thing? What do you have against people getting an income?

But generally, it seems the USA messed this up. And although I think trump is partially to blame, I think a lot of this is just a show of how bad the US system is. It is no wonder the US "socialists" think capitalism is to blame. Its because the US system is a mess.

The issues with states trying to out bid each other is part of a bigger problem, and I think its only showing its head now, because the virus is requiring the USA to act as one entity. But the US system is by design, not one entity.

Quote from: Crouton on April 08, 2020, 12:27:12 PM

Quote from: Bom Tishop on April 08, 2020, 12:18:13 PM

Now the situation is reversed for Trump from 2016.

Instead of his election to win, it's his to lose.

Don't Hillary this Trump.

Out of curiosity why do you prefer Trump to Biden?

Mainly because the economy was the best it's ever been. Whether it's his policies or just a subconscious thing for the country, it works. Biden will quickly reverse that again with either policy or just being him.

He won't cave to the bleeding heart liberals and their nonsense like Biden.... Could only imagine the dumb shit he would pass for them.

Trump isn't 100 percent there mentally, but Biden I don't think is even 10 percent left in the tank. They guy has lost it, and it's only gonna get worse when you add the stress of a presidency.

He is the devil I know...stay off Twitter and ignore his press meetings (though sometimes either is fun when he trolls at times). Biden, I have no idea what that nut will be like.

I can go on if you care, but that's the biggest ones.


Oh and the fact he is fairly certain a pedophile, that's not a selling point either. Either between age or having more power, that damn volcano is waiting to erupt. Least Trump only harasses woman of age lol.

Was the economy great?  Yeah.  Was it Trump?  Not really.  Not specifically anyway.  Obama did the recovery and the economy grew steadily without him.  Basically things kept going after he left office.  Trump, due to his incompetence at leadership, was... Prevented from fucking it up.  Not that he didn't try.

Remember when he was gonna put a ban on US companies from doing business with China and the tech market tanked until he backtracked?

See, the economy is basically in Republican mode.  Where rules are looser, people are expendable, and taxes are lower.  So the economy kept growing and growing.  Now its crashed because of Corona.  But thats not his fault either.  Just know, the great growth we felt came at a cost:  Larger debt, less services, and more fragility.  Because of oil crashing, alot of oil wells in America will shut down or slow down.


But economics aside, Trump is a horrible person.  He needs to be removed if for no other reason than he basically shows the world "Americans are assholes."

Quote from: Crouton on April 08, 2020, 03:14:33 PM

Congress did a 2 trillion stimulus package.  Trump's contribution to it is to try to wet his beak in it to save his hotel chain.  And the stimulus package, by the way, sucks.  Most of it goes to corporations to prop up stocks.

I get confused why people think saving the companies that employ all the people are a bad thing? What do you have against people getting an income?

But generally, it seems the USA messed this up. And although I think trump is partially to blame, I think a lot of this is just a show of how bad the US system is. It is no wonder the US "socialists" think capitalism is to blame. Its because the US system is a mess.

The issues with states trying to out bid each other is part of a bigger problem, and I think its only showing its head now, because the virus is requiring the USA to act as one entity. But the US system is by design, not one entity.

I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily.  But let's break out the anatomy of this bill. 
250b for unemployment insurance.
350b in loans for small businesses. 
500bn for industries and
50b for airlines
130b in aid to hospitals
150b to help state and local governments
470b left over for direct payments.

So a 2 trillion dollar bill and about 30% of that goes to individuals.  Maybe 30% is a good number.  Hard to say.  Ah but things are more complicated than that.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/02/coronavirus-corporate-bailout-deal-161374

That 500b in there,  that's really 5 trillion for corporations through the magic of convoluted language.  With very weak accountability involving an inspector general that Trump has already fired because he wasn't sufficiently pliable.

So out of this bill individuals get about 9% of this money.

On a deeper level consider this.  A horrific plague hits this country.  What's our governments first course of action?  That's right.  Protecting the stock market.  Drop the interest rates to zero.  Flood the bond market.  Guarantee giant loans.  Then release stimulus bill after stimulus bill with a fraction of it going to the people who sure as shit won't be able to make rent this month or the next.

The idea of actually fighting the outbreak was secondary.  The states can do it if they feel like.  Trump really isn't interested in that.  If I thought I might be sick I still can't get a test.

Lest that rant give you the wrong idea I do want businesses to survive.  I'd hate to get to the other side of this and have only Amazon, Ihop and mcDonalds to shop at.  I just feel that the efforts should have strongly focused on people.

Also, the states actually do normally work extremely well together under the government in a crisis.  We usually don't have such an incompetent government as we do now.

So out of this bill individuals get about 9% of this money.

On a deeper level consider this.  A horrific plague hits this country.  What's our governments first course of action?  That's right.  Protecting the stock market.  Drop the interest rates to zero.  Flood the bond market.  Guarantee giant loans.  Then release stimulus bill after stimulus bill with a fraction of it going to the people who sure as shit won't be able to make rent this month or the next.

The idea of actually fighting the outbreak was secondary.  The states can do it if they feel like.  Trump really isn't interested in that.  If I thought I might be sick I still can't get a test.

Lest that rant give you the wrong idea I do want businesses to survive.  I'd hate to get to the other side of this and have only Amazon, Ihop and mcDonalds to shop at.  I just feel that the efforts should have strongly focused on people.

Also, the states actually do normally work extremely well together under the government in a crisis.  We usually don't have such an incompetent government as we do now.

I dont want you to get the wrong intentions of my reply. I think that fighting the pandemic first should be priority #1. But at the same time you dont want to end up in a terrible distopia when its over.
So 2 things have to happen at the same time, this goes for all countries, not just USA.

1 - Fight the pandemic - save immediate lives
2 - Save the countries ability to be productive - Save long term lives.

There needs to be a balance between the 2.

Every company that gets saved, saves peoples long term ability to have an income, and a life.
You can give the people money which will only last 1 or 2 months. But after that they need to be able to earn money for another 30 years. If companies go bankrupt, they dont just re-appear. Those companies need to be built up again from scratch, that can take years.

I dont think any other president would have done much differently from Trump. Even old socialist Bernie. If Amazon goes belly up, its 100s of thousands of jobs that wont come back for years. Its millions of monthly paychecks that will never arrive. Bezos will be reduced to nothing, and some socialist will think its a win, ignoring that 100's of thousands went from little to nothing as well.

Right now, South Africa is doing well in the Pandemic arena. We are doing badly in the economic arena. This means that people who survive on social welfare (A LOT of people) could lose that welfare as we as a country no longer have the ability to feed them. You cant disconnect economic wealth from actual health, there is a relationship.

Your intentions are well received.  My demeanor, however, is random and sometimes prickly on account of this situation.

I sometimes forget that other countries exist and act independently.  Although I have a feeling that economically we'll all share the same fate.

I don't mean to be a downer about your situation but I've heard, haven't verified this, that this virus is sort of affected by seasons.  So the northern hemisphere is getting hit hard while the southern hemisphere is having an easier time.  If true then then we might be trading places in a few months.

So the delusional old guy dropped out. Was about time!

Still it's really sad that the democrats now have another delusional old guy running against trump, already well known to lose....

Well, Trump is also a delusional old guy, so maybe it takes a delusional old guy to beat a delusional old guy. 

If companies go bankrupt, they dont just re-appear. Those companies need to be built up again from scratch, that can take years.

When companies close, they don't fall into a void and disappear. After the dust settles down there will be a big recession of course, but companies won't just vanish. A lot will close down and never reopen, but other ones will just be bought up by much more powerful companies. It's typical in recessions, and it's one of the reasons why inequality usually increases after recessions.

I would have voted Wang, but he isn't an option so Trump it is.

Who's Wank?

Businesses and people who aren't blinded liberals we see it's obviously not Trump's fault what so ever.

Are you saying you think their response to the pandemic was sound? Because at this point I don't see how someone would think that.

People were (rightly) pissed at Hillarys ineptitude which cost several Americans their lives in Benghazi.

Trumps ineptitude will be costing tens of thousands of lives. A full September 11 terror attacks worth of death every day for weeks when this shit peaks.

Still, some people will give him the thumbs up

When companies close, they don't fall into a void and disappear. After the dust settles down there will be a big recession of course, but companies won't just vanish. A lot will close down and never reopen, but other ones will just be bought up by much more powerful companies. It's typical in recessions, and it's one of the reasons why inequality usually increases after recessions.

No one is buying up a small service business, because you need to buy the debt, the stress, and the owner, who is usually central to it making any money.

But yes, IF there is anything that can be rescued, other business's usually buy up big business's. But it really depends on the business, there is zero left of blockbuster for example. And it ALWAYS goes through "restructuring", which means getting rid of people.
There is a reason why the business goes bankrupt, for example, if there are no customers because they are hiding at home. If that situation does not change, the business wont be bought up by anyone, and it will vanish.

But, no matter how you slice it, LOTS of people will lose their income unless the business's can be saved.
So the governments trying to save business's help decrease inequality (as you mentioned). Its a good thing, and why I think any reasonable president would have done this. Also, why it is being done everywhere on earth at the moment.

But the economy... we're officially in a recession which will probably turn into a depression.  The economy is now officially worse under Trump than Obama.

Now it's the 10th.
Best market week since 1938.

Everything's fine!

Who needs jobs when we have the stock market?

Who needs jobs when we have the stock market?

I do : paper loos is now 40K

The unemployment bit isn't unexpected.  Basically anyone who works hourly and can't do so remotely or isn't essential is out of work. Unemployment is the only way to not starve because most Americans live paycheck to paycheck.