The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.

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rabinoz

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #150 on: February 21, 2020, 06:03:41 PM »
Once again, Experiment 14 is not the observation in Spain. It is a different experiment.

Quite deceitful to announce that Experiment 14, an unrelated experiment, is "null and void" once you are unable to defend your lies and attempts at deception. But that is to be expected of your posting history.
Only losers resort to the Ad hominem logical fallacy!
Maybe you should read this Why Gaslighters Accuse You of Gaslighting, Accusing you of their own behavior is a classic gaslighter's tactic

Don't forget yhat you, yourself asserted that Rowbotham was wrong in his claims about Antarctica!

No, Tom, it is you who are negligent! The Biot and Arago survey is obviously intended to be part of Rowbotham's Experiment 14.
Read "EXPERIMENT 14" in it's entirety and remember that I said "For example, consider his Biot and Arago observation in EXPERIMENT 14".
Quote from: Samuel Birley Rowbotham
Zetetic Astronomy, by 'Parallax', [1881]
EXPERIMENT 14
If a good theodolite is placed on the summit of Shooter's Hill, in Kent, and levelled, the line of sight, on being directed to Hampstead Hill, will cut the cross on St. Paul's Cathedral, and fall upon a part of Hampstead Hill, the altitude of which is the same as that of Shooter's Hill. The altitude of each of these points is 412 feet above the Trinity high water mark, at London Bridge. The distance from Shooter's Hill to St. Paul's Cathedral is 7 statute miles, and from St. Paul's to Hampstead Hill, 5 miles. If the earth is a globe, the line of sight from the

p. 58

"levelled" theodolite would be a tangent, below which St. Paul's cross would be 32 feet, and Hampstead Hill 96 feet. The highest point of Hampstead Hill is 430 feet, which we find, on making the proper calculation, would be 78 feet below the summit of Shooter's Hill; whereas, according to the Ordnance Survey, and as may be proved by experiment, the three points are in the same direct line; again demonstrating that the earth is a plane.

The diagrams, figs. 42 and 43, will show the difference


                                                   FIG. 42.

between the theory of rotundity and the results of actual survey. A, represents Hampstead Hill; C, St. Paul's cross; B, Shooter's Hill; and D, D, the datum line--the Trinity high water mark. In fig. 43, A, B, C, and D, D, represent the same points respectively as in fig. 42.


                                                   FIG. 43.
p. 59

In the account of the trigonometrical operations in France, by M. M. Biot and Arago, it is stated that the light of a powerful lamp, with good reflectors, was placed on a rocky summit, in Spain, called Desierto las Palmas, and was distinctly seen from Camprey, on the Island of Iviza. The elevation of the two points was nearly the same, and the distance between them nearly 100 miles. If the earth is a globe, the light on the rock in Spain would have been more than 6600 feet, or nearly one mile and a quarter, below the line of sight.

"The length of some of the sides of the great triangles (in the English survey) is upwards of 100 miles; and many means were employed to render the stations visible from each other at such great distances. The oxy-hydrogen, or Drummond's Light, was employed in some instances; but a heliostat, for reflecting the sun's rays in the direction of the distant observer, was more generally and successfully employed. Lieutenant-Colonel Portlock, R.E., who observed the station on Precelly, a mountain in South Wales, from the station on Kippure, a mountain about 10 miles south-west of Dublin--the distance between the stations being 108 miles--says: 'For five weeks I watched in vain; when, to my joy, the heliostat blazed out in the early beams of the rising sun, and continued visible as a bright star the whole day.'" [1]

Many other very long "sights" have been taken by surveyors of different countries, which upon a globe of 25,000 miles in circumference, would have been quite impossible; but with the demonstrated fact that the earth is a plane, are practical and consistent.

Footnotes:
59:1 Handbook to the Official Catalogue of the Great Exhibition of 1851.

Next: Experiment 15

But in none of those does Rowbotham present any real evidence supporting his assertions.
He just states "which upon a globe of 25,000 miles in circumference, would have been quite impossible" with little mention of the relevant heights. Without these heights his claims are totally worthless.

Now, Tom, if you are able please start debating the points raised that seem to show that Rowbotham was simply incorrect in a couple of quite provable instances.

Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #151 on: February 21, 2020, 06:21:30 PM »
So, now you do admit that Experiment 14 is a different experiment.
No, it seems to be reported as a single "experiment."

But why do you keep deflecting away from the dishonesty of Row Boat?

Where is the problem for a RE?

Further assumptions by rabinoz, in the vain effort to make his case.
No, not assumptions by us. Demonstrations that there is nothing wrong the account provided for a RE.
Once again, it is dishonesty on the part of your high prophet to pretend there is a problem for the RE.

Row Boat is clearly trying to indicate that these sightings would be impossible for a RE.
But he intentionally leaves out crucial information.
There is no problem for a RE there, just dishonesty from the High Prophet of FE.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #152 on: February 22, 2020, 05:45:18 AM »
What willful misrepresentation. Experiment 14 is clearly one experiment that Rowbotham performed, like the others are. Experiment 14 is not three experiments which with entirely different methods, some not performed by Rowbotham. Experiments 1 through 13 are single experiments. The other content like the Spain reference are references of somewhat related and similar observations.

Rowbotham doesn't give elevations to the Spain observation, the heliostat observation, or any other surveyor reference. He tells us that if we are interested in more, to look at the work of surveyors. The elevations which are actually given are for the main experiment of the section, which, surprise surprise, is a single experiment, Experiment 14.

E X P E R I M E N T - obviously indicative of a single experiment.

Yet, you sit here and attempt to make a false argument; basically lying, in either desperation or deception, to make some kind of argument.

Rowbotham does give us elevations to his experiments. What you picked out is not his experiment, and basically a SUMMARY of something that you should look into if interested further. All of this is quite obvious.

Rowbotham's work is entirely fine. We find that he does give sufficient information on his experiments. Beyond this he tells us what to look for and where to look for it in the brief mention of the other surveyor work.

Does anyone list out out Bedford level elevation information when giving brief mentions of Rowbotham's work? I think not. Only if doing a full rundown on the subject, would that come up. If the main subject content was about that third party work, it would obviously actually quote those works directly and go into detail. It's not, so it isn't. You have plucked out a few sentences and are screaming nonsense.

Your mindset is clearly "how can I twist this...." and "If I can at least claim to assume..." on this and many other topics. This is why I see this as dishonesty in general.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 10:42:12 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #153 on: February 22, 2020, 12:14:04 PM »
What willful misrepresentation.
Already clearly explained.
On the basis of what John provided, and what Rab has provided, there is no issue with seeing the light. But your high prophet Row Boat wants to pretend there is a problem for the RE. So he leaves out key pieces of information, the actual altitude of the observer and the actual altitude of the light.
This allows him to completely ignore how far away the horizon would be for the observer and then how much would be hidden beyond the horizon and instead just incorrect focus on the drop from the observer as if they were at sea level, to then pretend there is a problem for a RE.

He even follows it up with:
"Many other very long "sights" have been taken by surveyors of different countries, which upon a globe of 25,000 miles in circumference, would have been quite impossible;"
But as clearly shown it isn't impossible at all.

He is blatantly misrepresenting what happened by leaving out key details and then blatantly lying about it.

Quit whining about the rest of what is included in "Experiment 14" and deal with this blatant dishonesty by your high prophet.

Rowbotham doesn't give elevations to the Spain observation, the heliostat observation, or any other surveyor reference.
Yes, he leaves out that key piece of information to pretend there is a problem, providing a completely useless number as a comparison, and quite clearly indicates that such observations would be impossible on a round Earth.
Quite dishonest of him.

Yet, you sit here and attempt to make a false argument; basically lying, in either desperation or deception, to make some kind of argument.
Good job projecting the inadequacies of your high prophet and yourself.

Rowbotham does give us elevations to his experiments.
Which he doesn't even present as an actual experiment that he did and instead seems to do it as a thought experiment. But as he is shown to be quite happy to lie or be blatantly dishonest, his words are worth nothing.
Do you have anything to back the claims of his experiment?
The only thing he seems to appeal to is a survey which shows elevation. But that doesn't mean they lie on a line.

Your mindset is clearly "how can I twist this...." and "If I can at least claim to assume..." on this and many other topics. This is why I see this as dishonesty in general.
Projecting yet again.
Your mind set, throughout these forums seems to be "how can I twist this to pretend there is a problem for the RE and that the FE is fine, using whatever tactics I can, regardless of how dishonest."

Even now, when people were clearly discussing one key part of what is included under "Experiment 14" where your high prophet is pretending there is a problem for the RE, you flee from it and try to bring up other irrelevant bits.

Deal with his dishonesty first.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 12:15:41 PM by JackBlack »

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rabinoz

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #154 on: February 22, 2020, 02:02:43 PM »
What willful misrepresentation. Experiment 14 is clearly one experiment that Rowbotham performed, like the others are. Experiment 14 is not three experiments which with entirely different methods, some not performed by Rowbotham.
No, it is not one experiment! There are three parts to experiment 14, Read this AGAIN!

Quote from: Samuel Birley Rowbotham
Zetetic Astronomy, by 'Parallax', [1881]
EXPERIMENT 14
If a good theodolite is placed on the summit of Shooter's Hill, in Kent, and levelled, the line of sight, on being directed to Hampstead Hill, will cut the cross on St. Paul's Cathedral, and fall upon a part of Hampstead Hill, the altitude of which is the same as that of Shooter's Hill. The altitude of each of these points is 412 feet above the Trinity high water mark, at London Bridge. The distance from Shooter's Hill to St. Paul's Cathedral is 7 statute miles, and from St. Paul's to Hampstead Hill, 5 miles. If the earth is a globe, the line of sight from the

p. 58

"levelled" theodolite would be a tangent, below which St. Paul's cross would be 32 feet, and Hampstead Hill 96 feet. The highest point of Hampstead Hill is 430 feet, which we find, on making the proper calculation, would be 78 feet below the summit of Shooter's Hill; whereas, according to the Ordnance Survey, and as may be proved by experiment, the three points are in the same direct line; again demonstrating that the earth is a plane.

The diagrams, figs. 42 and 43, will show the difference


                                                   FIG. 42.

between the theory of rotundity and the results of actual survey. A, represents Hampstead Hill; C, St. Paul's cross; B, Shooter's Hill; and D, D, the datum line--the Trinity high water mark. In fig. 43, A, B, C, and D, D, represent the same points respectively as in fig. 42.


                                                   FIG. 43.
p. 59

In the account of the trigonometrical operations in France, by M. M. Biot and Arago, it is stated that the light of a powerful lamp, with good reflectors, was placed on a rocky summit, in Spain, called Desierto las Palmas, and was distinctly seen from Camprey, on the Island of Iviza. The elevation of the two points was nearly the same, and the distance between them nearly 100 miles. If the earth is a globe, the light on the rock in Spain would have been more than 6600 feet, or nearly one mile and a quarter, below the line of sight.

"The length of some of the sides of the great triangles (in the English survey) is upwards of 100 miles; and many means were employed to render the stations visible from each other at such great distances. The oxy-hydrogen, or Drummond's Light, was employed in some instances; but a heliostat, for reflecting the sun's rays in the direction of the distant observer, was more generally and successfully employed. Lieutenant-Colonel Portlock, R.E., who observed the station on Precelly, a mountain in South Wales, from the station on Kippure, a mountain about 10 miles south-west of Dublin--the distance between the stations being 108 miles--says: 'For five weeks I watched in vain; when, to my joy, the heliostat blazed out in the early beams of the rising sun, and continued visible as a bright star the whole day.'" [1]

Many other very long "sights" have been taken by surveyors of different countries, which upon a globe of 25,000 miles in circumference, would have been quite impossible; but with the demonstrated fact that the earth is a plane, are practical and consistent.

Footnotes:
59:1 Handbook to the Official Catalogue of the Great Exhibition of 1851.

Next: Experiment 15

Surely everything from the "EXPERIMENT 14" heading down to "Next: Experiment 15" is part of "EXPERIMENT 14"!

But who cares whether or not the "Biot and Arago" observation is or is not part of "EXPERIMENT 14"?

Rowbotham included it and Rowbotham was wrong on a number of provable points:
  • Rowbotham's statement that "The elevation of the two points was nearly the same" is impossible because the lowest summit in the Desierto las Palmas range is over twice the height of Camp Vell.

  • There is no other "rocky summit, in Spain, called Desierto las Palmas" that is "nearly 100 miles" from Camp Vell other that el Bartolo!

  • The claim "If the earth is a globe, the light on the rock in Spain would have been more than 6600 feet, or nearly one mile and a quarter, below the line of sight" is quite impossible if the observer height is above sea-level and it was over 390 m above sea-level.
Rowbotham was incorrect in his claim that the Biot and Arago observation is evidence against a spherical Earth!

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kachowabunga 17

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #155 on: February 25, 2020, 09:07:17 AM »
Don't let me stop you, but what does this have to do with the original topic?
You're not just wrong, you're stupid.

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magellanclavichord

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #156 on: February 25, 2020, 09:53:22 AM »
Don't let me stop you, but what does this have to do with the original topic?

Original topic: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
Fact: The Bible doesn't "prove" anything.
Conclusion: Might as well get back to arguing whether the Earth is flat or not.  ;)

Note: The Bible is not a coherent work. It is a collection of writings dating from about three thousand years ago to a little less than two thousand years ago. Like any good anthology of fantasy stories, different books within it say different things. None of it proves anything. But if you make the silly assumption that the entire Bible is Revealed Truth™, then you can find a passage to support pretty much any theory you wish to espouse.

At the time genesis was written, nobody knew anything about the shape of the Earth. By the time of Jesus and the N.T., educated people knew that the Earth is a ball, and they knew how big it is.

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magellanclavichord

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #157 on: February 25, 2020, 10:00:33 AM »
P.S. It's a myth that at the time of Columbus, people thought you'd fall off the edge if you sailed too far. The shape and size of the Earth were well known. And it was well known that the sailing ships of the day, the caravel, could not make it from Europe to Asia by sailing west.

Columbus was a crackpot who believed the Earth to be only half its true size, which would have put Asia within reach for a caravel. He and his crew would have died if they had not bumped into the Americas. He thought he was in Asia because the Americas are where he had expected to find Asia.

But my point is that opposition to his first voyage was not based on a belief that the Earth is flat. It was based on a correct knowledge of its size, and that fact that nobody in Europe knew that America existed.

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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #158 on: February 25, 2020, 10:15:29 AM »
Don't let me stop you, but what does this have to do with the original topic?

Original topic: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
Fact: The Bible doesn't "prove" anything.
Conclusion: Might as well get back to arguing whether the Earth is flat or not.  ;)

Note: The Bible is not a coherent work. It is a collection of writings dating from about three thousand years ago to a little less than two thousand years ago. Like any good anthology of fantasy stories, different books within it say different things. None of it proves anything. But if you make the silly assumption that the entire Bible is Revealed Truth™, then you can find a passage to support pretty much any theory you wish to espouse.

At the time genesis was written, nobody knew anything about the shape of the Earth. By the time of Jesus and the N.T., educated people knew that the Earth is a ball, and they knew how big it is.
The Hebrews of the time knew more than you know now; that the earth is flat.
Quantum Ab Hoc

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #159 on: February 25, 2020, 11:32:20 AM »
The Hebrews of the time knew more than you know now; that the earth is flat.

Things they did not know and had no knowledge of.

- How optics worked
- How telescopes worked
- How Computers worked
- How radio waves and the entire light spectrum worked

All these things are used today to detect the size and shape of our universe.

They had no way to know more than what we know now. Even if they tried really hard.




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magellanclavichord

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #160 on: February 25, 2020, 11:33:13 AM »
Don't let me stop you, but what does this have to do with the original topic?

Original topic: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
Fact: The Bible doesn't "prove" anything.
Conclusion: Might as well get back to arguing whether the Earth is flat or not.  ;)

Note: The Bible is not a coherent work. It is a collection of writings dating from about three thousand years ago to a little less than two thousand years ago. Like any good anthology of fantasy stories, different books within it say different things. None of it proves anything. But if you make the silly assumption that the entire Bible is Revealed Truth™, then you can find a passage to support pretty much any theory you wish to espouse.

At the time genesis was written, nobody knew anything about the shape of the Earth. By the time of Jesus and the N.T., educated people knew that the Earth is a ball, and they knew how big it is.
The Hebrews of the time knew more than you know now; that the earth is flat.

I don't think they even had a concept of "the Earth" as we understand it. Their "world" was a very small region we now think of as the Middle East. They had no inkling of anything beyond that. They had neither telescopes nor microscopes, were blissfully unaware of the moons of Jupiter or animals smaller than a pin-point, had no idea what causes lightning, and they thought that if you showed a picture of spots to a pregnant cow, the calf would be born with spots.

And you regard them as authorities on cosmology? Amazing!

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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #161 on: February 25, 2020, 12:06:52 PM »
The Hebrews of the time knew more than you know now; that the earth is flat.

Things they did not know and had no knowledge of.

- How optics worked
- How telescopes worked
- How Computers worked
- How radio waves and the entire light spectrum worked

All these things are used today to detect the size and shape of our universe.

They had no way to know more than what we know now. Even if they tried really hard.




This might be the case, yet they happened to stumble upon it somehow. If only they had some sort of alternative academic tradition that might have aided in this that could explain why they might know more... one that also tends to be the same reason the mainstream orthodoxy is so successful...

Oh right. Your science is fueled largely by mysticism; their tradition of knowledge. Folks just don't like to admit that bit.
Quantum Ab Hoc

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #162 on: February 25, 2020, 12:16:42 PM »
Oh right. Your science is fueled largely by mysticism; their tradition of knowledge. Folks just don't like to admit that bit.
types a man somehow completely unaware that the machine in front of him is a creation of his greatest criticism.

Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #163 on: February 25, 2020, 01:00:04 PM »
Don't let me stop you, but what does this have to do with the original topic?

Original topic: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
Fact: The Bible doesn't "prove" anything.
Conclusion: Might as well get back to arguing whether the Earth is flat or not.  ;)

Note: The Bible is not a coherent work. It is a collection of writings dating from about three thousand years ago to a little less than two thousand years ago. Like any good anthology of fantasy stories, different books within it say different things. None of it proves anything. But if you make the silly assumption that the entire Bible is Revealed Truth™, then you can find a passage to support pretty much any theory you wish to espouse.

At the time genesis was written, nobody knew anything about the shape of the Earth. By the time of Jesus and the N.T., educated people knew that the Earth is a ball, and they knew how big it is.
The Hebrews of the time knew more than you know now; that the earth is flat.
Seriously, how do you explain measured distances and where is your accurate, definitive map?

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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #164 on: February 25, 2020, 01:28:25 PM »
Oh right. Your science is fueled largely by mysticism; their tradition of knowledge. Folks just don't like to admit that bit.
types a man somehow completely unaware that the machine in front of him is a creation of his greatest criticism.
I am well aware that the existence of the computer, and all modern technology for that matter, has mysticism as its origin.
Quantum Ab Hoc

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rabinoz

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #165 on: February 25, 2020, 01:35:43 PM »
Oh right. Your science is fueled largely by mysticism; their tradition of knowledge. Folks just don't like to admit that bit.
"Fueled largely by mysticism"? Care to elaborate on that? And what is your "belief" fueled by?

Is seems that most flat Earthers "science" is no more that:
  • Assume that the Earth is flat and that the Sun, Moon, planets and stars circle like buzzards overhead.

  • Where possible make up any old unsupported hypothesis to explain undeniable contrary edidence - like sunsets. See Electromagnetic Acceleration.

  • Where the evidence cannot be explained away by some "unsupported hypothesis" flat Earthers are forced to declare such evidence as fake, fabricated or "CGI" as with photos like this:

    MSG-3 captured its first image of the Earth
       

    Russian Satellite Photo
    around midday in Dec 2015
       

    Himawari-8 20160705120000fd
    See Place of the Conspiracy in FET
And then there's that elusive South Pole and the "forbidden ;D land", Antarctia - but we'll leave that for another day.

And all this seems fueled by nothing more than a necessity to "prove" that the Earth is flat and so ignore all contrary evidence.

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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #166 on: February 25, 2020, 02:09:44 PM »
I have long been open that my beliefs are fueled by mysticism.

As far evidence, the invention of the electric motor - revealed by vision to Tesla. Relativity - revealed via dream to Einstein. Otto Loewi, the father of neuroscience, had a dream on Easter Sunday that founded the field. August Keke discovered the ring shape of the benzene molecule under the influence of a day dream. Fred Hoyle relates his discovery -  “Rather as the revelation occurred to Paul on the Road to Damascus, mine occurred on the road over Bowes Moor.” No need for citation for Paul Dirac - the mystic of the atom. Kary Mullis made his worth via LSD visions. Richard Feynman used deprivation tanks. Edison? Cocaine infused wine. Penrose talks often of “breaking through to the Platonic Realm.” Godel? experienced with a realm where he could perceive mathematical objects.  David Bohm and Brian Josephson as well had their fair share of mystical experiences via meditation. David Peat talks to his: "A remarkable feeling of intensity that seems to flood the whole world around us with meaning … we sense that we are touching something universal and perhaps eternal so that the particular moment in time takes on a numinous character and seems to expand in time without limit. We sense that all boundaries between ourselves and the outer world vanish, for what we are experiencing lies beyond all categories and all attempts to be captured in logical thought"

 
Quantum Ab Hoc

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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #167 on: February 25, 2020, 02:11:26 PM »
Really, just shake a stick at any notable advance and behind it you by necessity find mysticism or perhaps dumb luck.
Quantum Ab Hoc

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magellanclavichord

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #168 on: February 25, 2020, 02:22:08 PM »
... yet they [the ancient Hebrews?] happened to stumble upon it [a belief in FE?] somehow. ...

First of all, I'm not at all convinced that they did believe the Earth is flat, in large part because they didn't even have any idea that "the Earth" existed as a thing. All they knew was the land around them and that there are lights in the sky. And if they did believe the Earth was flat, that in no way supports your assertion that it is, since they offered no evidence or measurements. What they knew was a piece of land which looks flat to the naked eye. They shared your uneducated belief, so you cite them as an authority.

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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #169 on: February 25, 2020, 02:30:23 PM »
... yet they [the ancient Hebrews?] happened to stumble upon it [a belief in FE?] somehow. ...

First of all, I'm not at all convinced that they did believe the Earth is flat, in large part because they didn't even have any idea that "the Earth" existed as a thing. All they knew was the land around them and that there are lights in the sky. And if they did believe the Earth was flat, that in no way supports your assertion that it is, since they offered no evidence or measurements. What they knew was a piece of land which looks flat to the naked eye. They shared your uneducated belief, so you cite them as an authority.
I do not cite them as an authority, I am simply pointing out they were right.

As far as being unconvinced, what happened to believing experts and the like who all state they do? Oh, I take it you didn't bother to read on that before forming an opinion, just like you didn't bother to learn about us before being bigoted towards us or pretending to be one of us? Or is it like how you didn't bother to learn history before gaining your view on that?
Quantum Ab Hoc

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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #170 on: February 25, 2020, 02:30:59 PM »
Perhaps your expertise in religious cults can be of use! ::)
Quantum Ab Hoc

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rabinoz

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #171 on: February 25, 2020, 03:07:11 PM »
I have long been open that my beliefs are fueled by mysticism.
Mysticism or simply clearing the mind so as to concentrate on the question at hand?

Quote from: John Davis
As far evidence, the invention of the electric motor - revealed by vision to Tesla.
Tesla did not invent the electric motor, that was Micheal Faraday. Though the "first commutator DC electric motor capable of turning machinery was invented by British scientist William Sturgeon".

Tesla did invent the three-phase induction motor.

Quote from: John Davis
Relativity - revealed via dream to Einstein. Otto Loewi, the father of neuroscience, had a dream on Easter Sunday that founded the field. August Keke discovered the ring shape of the benzene molecule under the influence of a day dream.
For example, I would not call this mysticism:
Quote
Kekulé's dream
Kekulé spoke of the creation of the theory. He said that he had discovered the ring shape of the benzene molecule after having a reverie or day-dream of a snake seizing its own tail (this is an ancient symbol known as the ouroboros).
I doubt that Kekulé would have had his "reverie or day-dream of a snake seizing its own tail" had he not been puzzlibg of that problem beforehand.

Quote from: John Davis
Fred Hoyle relates his discovery -  “Rather as the revelation occurred to Paul on the Road to Damascus, mine occurred on the road over Bowes Moor.” No need for citation for Paul Dirac - the mystic of the atom. Kary Mullis made his worth via LSD visions. Richard Feynman used deprivation tanks. Edison? Cocaine infused wine. Penrose talks often of “breaking through to the Platonic Realm.” Godel? experienced with a realm where he could perceive mathematical objects.  David Bohm and Brian Josephson as well had their fair share of mystical experiences via meditation. David Peat talks to his: "A remarkable feeling of intensity that seems to flood the whole world around us with meaning … we sense that we are touching something universal and perhaps eternal so that the particular moment in time takes on a numinous character and seems to expand in time without limit. We sense that all boundaries between ourselves and the outer world vanish, for what we are experiencing lies beyond all categories and all attempts to be captured in logical thought"
Just how much of this is mysticism but just one's own "sub-conscious" working on the problem based on already known information.

But what has any of this to do with the shape of the Earth" The topic is "The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat".

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magellanclavichord

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #172 on: February 25, 2020, 06:49:37 PM »
... yet they [the ancient Hebrews?] happened to stumble upon it [a belief in FE?] somehow. ...

First of all, I'm not at all convinced that they did believe the Earth is flat, in large part because they didn't even have any idea that "the Earth" existed as a thing. All they knew was the land around them and that there are lights in the sky. And if they did believe the Earth was flat, that in no way supports your assertion that it is, since they offered no evidence or measurements. What they knew was a piece of land which looks flat to the naked eye. They shared your uneducated belief, so you cite them as an authority.
I do not cite them as an authority, I am simply pointing out they were right.

As far as being unconvinced, what happened to believing experts and the like who all state they do? Oh, I take it you didn't bother to read on that before forming an opinion, just like you didn't bother to learn about us before being bigoted towards us or pretending to be one of us? Or is it like how you didn't bother to learn history before gaining your view on that?

Oh, I see. So you bring ignorant ancient people into the argument for no actual purpose at all.

And there are no "experts" who thought that anybody after Eratosthenes believed the world was flat. So all you're doing is asserting, with no purpose, that ancient peoples were right because their mythological cosmologies agreed with your ludicrous notion, contrary to all evidence, and contrary to observations you could make yourself if you cared to, that the Earth is flat.

You're simply punking us all. There's no way you could actually believe the stuff you're writing.

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MaNaeSWolf

  • 1982
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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #173 on: February 25, 2020, 07:55:00 PM »
Did the Hebrews not roam a relatively small desert for a good 40 years?
Based on their history of getting lost, I am not sure you should use them as any authority on cartography, never mind the shape of the earth.
I wonder what modern Jews believe now? Or are only people from thousands of years past reliable?

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rabinoz

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #174 on: February 26, 2020, 12:18:26 AM »
The Hebrews of the time knew more than you know now; that the earth is flat.
It might be more accurate to say the "Hebrews of the time" believed "that the earth is flat" as did the ancient Chinese, Egyptians, and Babylonians as in:
Quote from: Robert J. Schadewald
The Flat-Earth Bible
The Babylonian universe was shaped like a modern domed stadium. The Babylonians considered the earth essentially flat, with a continental mass surrounded by ocean. The vault of the sky was a physical object resting upon the ocean's waters (and perhaps also upon pillars). Sweet (salt-free) waters below the Earth sometimes manifest themselves as springs. The Egyptian universe was also enclosed, but it was rectangular instead of round. Indeed, it was shaped much like an old-fashioned steamer trunk. (The Egyptians pictured the goddess Nut stretched across the sky as the enclosing dome.)
I purposely haven't included India on that list because there seems good reason to believe that the Hindu Veda describes a Globe Earth:
Quote from: Vishnu Elayath, Rigvedi
What does Veda say about the Earth being flat or round?
The flat Earth theory sustained in the West and was to stay till Galileo’s discoveries were agreed upon. It was a different case in the East though.

Indians have, since time immemorial, known that the Earth we live on is a spherical planet. How? I shall elaborate with examples and quotations from ancient scriptures.

The word भू is used to denote Earth. It is famously called भूगोल (Bhoogola) meaning “The sphere that is Earth”.
<< Much more on the linked reference >>

Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #175 on: February 26, 2020, 06:21:56 AM »
Did the Hebrews not roam a relatively small desert for a good 40 years?
In reality: very unlikely.  But that's the story, and they are sticking to it.

Quote
Based on their history of getting lost, I am not sure you should use them as any authority on cartography, never mind the shape of the earth.
Excellent point though.  :D
Quote from: mikeman7918
a single photon can pass through two sluts

Quote from: Chicken Fried Clucker
if Donald Trump stuck his penis in me after trying on clothes I would have that date and time burned in my head.

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magellanclavichord

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #176 on: February 26, 2020, 06:27:49 AM »
Did the Hebrews not roam a relatively small desert for a good 40 years?

Actually, no, they didn't. The Bible describes the 40-years' wandering in detail, and this detailed description has them moving through lands where the local people kept detailed written records that survive to this day. There is absolutely no reference in any of these places to a large tribe of foreigners moving through their lands. The entire story of the Exodus and the Wanderings in the Bible is made up. It never happened. Neither the plagues, the exodus, nor the wanderings ever happened. Surprised? The Bible is not a reliable source of history.

I wonder what modern Jews believe now?

Modern Jews know that the Earth is roughly spherical, as Jews have known ever since Eratosthenes. Hasidic Jews are bonkers, just as all religious fanatics are bonkers, and there may be flat-Earthers among Jews, as there are among Christians and Muslims. But 99.999993% of the world's population know the Earth to be round, and that includes Jews as well as everyone else.

Even the bat-shit crazy hell-fire Baptists and Pentecostalists and Seventh-Day Adventists know the Earth is round. And ALL the mainstream religions know the Earth is round.

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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #177 on: February 26, 2020, 12:49:44 PM »
The Hebrews of the time knew more than you know now; that the earth is flat.
It might be more accurate to say the "Hebrews of the time" believed "that the earth is flat" as did the ancient Chinese, Egyptians, and Babylonians as in:
Quote from: Robert J. Schadewald
The Flat-Earth Bible
The Babylonian universe was shaped like a modern domed stadium. The Babylonians considered the earth essentially flat, with a continental mass surrounded by ocean. The vault of the sky was a physical object resting upon the ocean's waters (and perhaps also upon pillars). Sweet (salt-free) waters below the Earth sometimes manifest themselves as springs. The Egyptian universe was also enclosed, but it was rectangular instead of round. Indeed, it was shaped much like an old-fashioned steamer trunk. (The Egyptians pictured the goddess Nut stretched across the sky as the enclosing dome.)
I purposely haven't included India on that list because there seems good reason to believe that the Hindu Veda describes a Globe Earth:
Quote from: Vishnu Elayath, Rigvedi
What does Veda say about the Earth being flat or round?
The flat Earth theory sustained in the West and was to stay till Galileo’s discoveries were agreed upon. It was a different case in the East though.

Indians have, since time immemorial, known that the Earth we live on is a spherical planet. How? I shall elaborate with examples and quotations from ancient scriptures.

The word भू is used to denote Earth. It is famously called भूगोल (Bhoogola) meaning “The sphere that is Earth”.
<< Much more on the linked reference >>

There is plenty of evidence that the Hindu people believed in a flat earth.

It can be shown that the Flat Earth worldview is consistent with the vast majority of religious texts and worldviews.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=61125.0

Quantum Ab Hoc

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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #178 on: February 26, 2020, 12:52:48 PM »
In fact, its fairly well established that the majority of worldviews are either horizontal or vertical cosmologies. Both of these are flat earth cosmologies.
Quantum Ab Hoc

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magellanclavichord

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #179 on: February 26, 2020, 01:24:31 PM »
It can be shown that the Flat Earth worldview is consistent with the vast majority of religious texts ...

Since all religious texts are complete nonsense written by people whose only expertise was in the art of bamboozling people into giving them money, their supposed "consistency" with a flat-Earth worldview is not very convincing evidence for the shape of the Earth.

And least you criticize me for calling all religious texts nonsense, I will point out that the vast majority of religions claim that all other religions are nonsense, or far worse. The only difference between me and most religious believers is that they think that 99.99% of religions are bogus, and I think that 100% of them are bogus. We only disagree by about 0.01%.