The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.

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kachowabunga 17

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The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« on: September 25, 2019, 01:06:00 PM »
How does the Bible prove the Earth is flat? Verses contradict each other about the Earth's shape. Isaiah 40:22 says the Earth is a circle, but Isaiah 11:12 (KJV) says the Earth has corners. The Bible isn't a literal description of the Earth, but is meant to be understandable, no matter your beliefs.
 The FAQ says that the government lies about the Earth's shape,"To hide the truth of the Bible." This country was founded on Christian principles. Hiding the truth of the Bible wouldn't make sense because the majority of the population (73.7% of adults in 2016) is Christian. Most Christians (myself included) don't believe the Earth is flat. So why exactly does a (at least partially) Christian-founded government want to hide the truth of the Bible from Christians, even though we have easy access to a Bible?
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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2019, 01:35:05 PM »
How does the Bible prove the Earth is flat? Verses contradict each other about the Earth's shape. Isaiah 40:22 says the Earth is a circle, but Isaiah 11:12 (KJV) says the Earth has corners. The Bible isn't a literal description of the Earth, but is meant to be understandable, no matter your beliefs.
 The FAQ says that the government lies about the Earth's shape,"To hide the truth of the Bible." This country was founded on Christian principles. Hiding the truth of the Bible wouldn't make sense because the majority of the population (73.7% of adults in 2016) is Christian. Most Christians (myself included) don't believe the Earth is flat. So why exactly does a (at least partially) Christian-founded government want to hide the truth of the Bible from Christians, even though we have easy access to a Bible?

I'm sorry but to believe anything people might have written down that someone else said this and that in ancient history is kinda far-fetched.
Do you have the intelligence to understand that I already addressed your reference, not once, but twice?

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2019, 01:42:56 PM »
Yes, you have easy access to the Bible, but so many people ignore what it says, if they even bother to read it.

There are a few main ways to try and get people to stop following/believing what the Bible says.
One is a direct approach to try to get people to recognise the Bible is wrong and discard it. But with religious beliefs that isn't always the best. People will often try to cling to their beliefs regardless of how you try to show they are wrong.

The other way is much more successful (based upon how people have been in the passed). You don't oppose the religion, you embrace it and give teachings which manipulate what it says. You lead people away from the religion from the inside so they still think they are following the religion, even though they have massively distanced themselves from it. So many people claim to be religious, while almost completely discarding the religion they claim to follow. Christianity is based upon this, with so many Christians discarding the commands of God because of what Jesus allegedly said or did.

If you gave these religious texts to people with no preachers corrupting them into what it thinks, and preferably also no knowledge of reality and asked them what they thought it taught, they would provide answers vastly different from what so many religious people say it teaches today.

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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2019, 01:30:25 AM »
The bible isn't proof of anything, let alone the shape of the earth.

Most of the bible was written at a time when flat earth was common belief, it's not a surprise that some passages can be interpreted as indicating a flat earth, although they could also be interpreted as figurative speech or other ways.

It's a question of interpretation, but the key is to realize that the bible is a theological work, not a work of science. The authors are trying to convey religious ideas, not  scientific facts. This is well understood by most Christians.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2019, 07:09:13 AM »
Another one who doesn't know the difference between evidence and proof.

There are biblical FE, and there are atheist FE. A few of the biblical FE post here, but not very often.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Shifter

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2019, 07:44:17 AM »
The bible doesn't prove anything. It's not meant to. Religion is about faith and a way of living. Some of the text and events date back over 3000 years. Words and definition of words change. To apply 21st century meanings of words to text written thousands of years ago and thus translated (clumsily) into English is stupid however there are some things in the bible which were thousands of years ahead of science

eg the existence of germs. The Jews knew 3000 years ago to wash your hands etc when touching anything unclean or dead animal. Doctors in the 17th-18th century would not wash their hands after handling diseased or dead people and thus spread infection and death. The concept of germs escaped them. All they had to do was open a very well known book (the bible) and read about what the ancient Jews used to do and why


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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2019, 10:44:25 AM »
The Old Testament contains evidence that ancient Hebrews had a flat earth cosmology. Christian RE tend to get mad when anyone talks about it.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Heavenly Breeze

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2019, 01:30:57 PM »
The Old Testament contains evidence that ancient Hebrews had a flat earth cosmology. Christian RE tend to get mad when anyone talks about it.

Ha. The Bible says that we were brought to earth on Вайтмарах. I do not think that the pantheon of the gods would have flown to flat land. Ha ha
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« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 01:32:34 PM by Heavenly Breeze »


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rabinoz

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2019, 05:31:08 PM »
The Old Testament contains evidence that ancient Hebrews had a flat earth cosmology. Christian RE tend to get mad when anyone talks about it.
Who "gets mad"? You may not be interested in the following but a few might.

The Scriptures were presented to a people who believed the earth flat and would probably have been quite confused had the Scriptures presented "Modern Science".
But what is "Modern Science"? "Modern Science" changed through the millennia so the Scriptures do not try to teach any "Modern Science".

You might read, Does scripture teach a Flat Earth Cosmology?

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
But what I do not agree with is that Scripture is intended to spoon-feed us with the "Theory of Everything".
Mankind has been given the ability to find this knowledge from studying "Nature".

Galileo was, of course, referring to Geocentrism vs Heliocentrism issue but on this issue he argued that God wrote two books:
Quote from: Kelly James Clark
Science and Religion: Two Books
Galileo argued that God has written two books — the Book of Nature and the Book of Scripture — and that these two books do not, because they cannot, contradict. That means that if one has a well-established scientific explanation of the physical world that seems to contradict a passage of Scripture, one has good reason to reconsider one’s interpretation of Scripture. The surface meaning of the Bible may not be its true meaning.
<< see the rest for more detail >>
Galileo's letter can be found at: Letter to the Grand Duchess Christina of Tuscany (1615) (abridged) by Galileo Galilei


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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2019, 06:08:15 PM »
Did you not read my post? "Christian RE tend to get mad when anyone talks about it". That was right there in the short post you quoted and replied to.  I am certain I have read a lot more about biblical FE cosmology than you have. I don't need to read one of your old posts on it, I have read papers about it. I linked to one just the other day, this one seemed to upset SpaceCadet for some reason http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/OTeSources/01-Genesis/Text/Articles-Books/Seely-Firmament-WTJ.pdf  I don't know why, maybe he is Christian, the paper is written by an RE.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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rabinoz

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2019, 08:42:44 PM »
Did you not read my post? "Christian RE tend to get mad when anyone talks about it". That was right there in the short post you quoted and replied to.
Yes, I read your post and what I wanted answered was who says "Christian RE tend to get mad"?
Who is "getting mad"? Debating and discussing a matter is not "getting mad".

Quote from: Space Cowgirl
I am certain I have read a lot more about biblical FE cosmology than you have. I don't need to read one of your old posts on it, I have read papers about it. I linked to one just the other day, this one seemed to upset SpaceCadet for some reason http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/OTeSources/01-Genesis/Text/Articles-Books/Seely-Firmament-WTJ.pdf  I don't know why, maybe he is Christian, the paper is written by an RE.
Maybe you "have read a lot more about biblical FE cosmology than" I but I'm not questioning that Biblical cosmology is of a flat stationary earth.

What I was questioning was whether Scripture is intended to teach a "FE cosmology" or science at all.

And that seems to have been the usual Christian view with few dissenters since around the 5 th century AD though though not all agree.

The early Church seems to have taken that view as to the shape of the earth though it insisted on the earth being stationary and at the centre of the Universe.

Copernicus and Galileo went further.

I've read your reference and have no issue with it and it seems to say what I've been trying to get over.
Quote
Certainly the historical-grammatical meaning of raqia  is "the ordinary opinion of the writer's day." Certainly also it is not the purpose of Gen 1: 7 to teach us the physical nature of the sky, but to reveal the creator of the sky. Consequently, the reference to the solid firmament "lies outside the scope of the writer's teachings" and the verse is still infallibly true.

So while the writers of Scripture might have believed the earth to be flat with a solid dome they were simply reflecting "the ordinary opinion of the writer's day."
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 09:05:56 PM by rabinoz »

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2019, 07:24:29 AM »
Dude, I said Christian RE tend to get mad about it. How many times do you need that question answered? Do you need me to go back over the history of this forum and give you specific names, or can you be satisfied that it happens? Here, I will give you one name Luke 22:35-38. He's a YEC, he believes the bible is literally true. It upsets him to think the bible might not be totally inerrant.

If you agree with me, I have no idea why you decided to disagree with me. The main part of my post was that the Old Testament contains evidence that the ancient Hebrews had a flat earth cosmology. Instead you decide to get your undies in a bunch because I mentioned how this makes some Christians mad. It does make some of them mad.

Who cares if the Christian bible is meant to teach cosmology or science? There are lots of Christians who believe Jesus walked on water because it's in the bible. Christians believe the entire earth flooded and two of every animal were saved on Noah's ark because it is in the bible. Of course there will be Christians who believe the earth is flat because it's in the bible.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2019, 08:05:43 AM »
I think the bible has indeed a flat earth cosmology, which is what you would expect given the period when it was written. That's IMHO the rational conclusion from looking at it objectively, as one would look at any other ancient religious document.

Sure you can find some contradicting verses, which is also not surprising considering it was written by many different people over a long period of time. But as a whole biblical cosmology is FE.

Rowbotham's FE is pretty much based on literal interpretation of biblical cosmology, so it matches it very well.

I think most modern Christians don't have a problem with the bible not being factually correct and are OK with interpreting the bible in the light of scientific fact. The shape of the earth isn't the central point of the bible.

Other Christians however think the bible is inerrant and should be read literally. For those it's much more difficult to get around ancient biblical cosmology. It requires some rather difficult interpretation acrobatics.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2019, 09:24:14 AM »
Yes! That is it. Christian RE have to reinterpret the meaning of words to make them fit their beliefs. Christian FE do not reinterpret the meaning of the words.

I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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mak3m

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2019, 09:42:38 AM »
Yes! That is it. Christian RE have to reinterpret the meaning of words to make them fit their beliefs. Christian FE do not reinterpret the meaning of the words.

Problem with the bible it is all interpretation, whether you are RE or FE, you cant take any of it literally.
You have to learn to reply without quoting a long previous answer.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2019, 09:52:12 AM »
A lot of people do take it literally, which is their right in a free society. You don't have to agree with them, obviously.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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mak3m

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2019, 09:58:59 AM »
A lot of people do take it literally, which is their right in a free society. You don't have to agree with them, obviously.

Oh ya fully agree, love free speech and free thought and free society, the only downside with it is that everyone gets a go, even ,would you believe, those with opinions I disagree with  ;D

You have to learn to reply without quoting a long previous answer.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2019, 10:23:04 AM »
A lot of people do take it literally, which is their right in a free society. You don't have to agree with them, obviously.

Oh ya fully agree, love free speech and free thought and free society, the only downside with it is that everyone gets a go, even ,would you believe, those with opinions I disagree with  ;D

That's the spirit!
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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kachowabunga 17

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2019, 12:44:16 PM »
How does the Bible prove the Earth is flat? Verses contradict each other about the Earth's shape. Isaiah 40:22 says the Earth is a circle, but Isaiah 11:12 (KJV) says the Earth has corners. The Bible isn't a literal description of the Earth, but is meant to be understandable, no matter your beliefs.
The point of this thread was to combat the "the Bible says the Earth is flat" argument. No one has said the Bible does prove the Earth's shape as flat, or that it accurately describes Earth. Unless someone says anything, I will consider my original statement in the subject to be correct.
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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2019, 01:12:18 PM »
How does the Bible prove the Earth is flat? Verses contradict each other about the Earth's shape. Isaiah 40:22 says the Earth is a circle, but Isaiah 11:12 (KJV) says the Earth has corners. The Bible isn't a literal description of the Earth, but is meant to be understandable, no matter your beliefs.
A circle is an equilateral polygon with infinite corners.

Quote
The FAQ says that the government lies about the Earth's shape,"To hide the truth of the Bible." This country was founded on Christian principles. Hiding the truth of the Bible wouldn't make sense because the majority of the population (73.7% of adults in 2016) is Christian. Most Christians (myself included) don't believe the Earth is flat. So why exactly does a (at least partially) Christian-founded government want to hide the truth of the Bible from Christians, even though we have easy access to a Bible?
If you think the government acts based on their Christian foundations, you haven't been paying attention.
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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2019, 01:13:51 PM »
Do you have justification that the Bible should not be taken literally?

If you are truly interested in this subject, David Wardlaw Scott talks in depth about supposed proofs in the Holy Bible of a flat earth.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2019, 01:28:02 PM »
How does the Bible prove the Earth is flat? Verses contradict each other about the Earth's shape. Isaiah 40:22 says the Earth is a circle, but Isaiah 11:12 (KJV) says the Earth has corners. The Bible isn't a literal description of the Earth, but is meant to be understandable, no matter your beliefs.
The point of this thread was to combat the "the Bible says the Earth is flat" argument. No one has said the Bible does prove the Earth's shape as flat, or that it accurately describes Earth. Unless someone says anything, I will consider my original statement in the subject to be correct.

What? You are not making any sense. Lots of people believe the bible describes a flat earth.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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rabinoz

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2019, 02:22:40 PM »
How does the Bible prove the Earth is flat? Verses contradict each other about the Earth's shape. Isaiah 40:22 says the Earth is a circle, but Isaiah 11:12 (KJV) says the Earth has corners. The Bible isn't a literal description of the Earth, but is meant to be understandable, no matter your beliefs.
The point of this thread was to combat the "the Bible says the Earth is flat" argument. No one has said the Bible does prove the Earth's shape as flat, or that it accurately describes Earth. Unless someone says anything, I will consider my original statement in the subject to be correct.

What? You are not making any sense. Lots of people believe the bible describes a flat earth.

The topic is, "The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat" not "The Bible doesn't describe a flat earth".

There is a huge difference which you seem unable to grasp.

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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2019, 02:27:34 PM »
How does the Bible prove the Earth is flat? Verses contradict each other about the Earth's shape. Isaiah 40:22 says the Earth is a circle, but Isaiah 11:12 (KJV) says the Earth has corners. The Bible isn't a literal description of the Earth, but is meant to be understandable, no matter your beliefs.
A circle is an equilateral polygon with infinite corners.

Isaiah 11:12 speaks of four corners or "ends" in other translations, not an infinite number. The Hebrew word used is "kanaph", which from what I found means edge or extremity. I don't think the meaning here is a geometrical corner or angle.

The use of the word "corner" could be an English translation thing. I looked some Spanish and German translation and the word used is "ends" or similar.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2019, 03:57:15 PM »
How does the Bible prove the Earth is flat? Verses contradict each other about the Earth's shape. Isaiah 40:22 says the Earth is a circle, but Isaiah 11:12 (KJV) says the Earth has corners. The Bible isn't a literal description of the Earth, but is meant to be understandable, no matter your beliefs.
The point of this thread was to combat the "the Bible says the Earth is flat" argument. No one has said the Bible does prove the Earth's shape as flat, or that it accurately describes Earth. Unless someone says anything, I will consider my original statement in the subject to be correct.

What? You are not making any sense. Lots of people believe the bible describes a flat earth.

The topic is, "The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat" not "The Bible doesn't describe a flat earth".

There is a huge difference which you seem unable to grasp.

What exactly do you think you can prove with the bible? It's not math. How is it that you are unable to grasp this?
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2019, 04:40:00 PM »
The topic is, "The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat" not "The Bible doesn't describe a flat earth".
With Christians claiming the Bible is the inerrant word of God, and thus using it to "prove" whatever it describes.

From the OP it seems more akin to the topic being if the Bible indicates Earth is flat.

After all, the Bible can prove basically nothing about the world.

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Shifter

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2019, 02:58:42 AM »
After all, the Bible can prove basically nothing about the world.

It's not designed to


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markjo

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2019, 12:02:16 PM »
Just out of curiosity, doesn't the verse about the earth being "fixed and immovable" contradict the whole notion of Universal Acceleration?
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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2019, 08:13:47 AM »
Just out of curiosity, doesn't the verse about the earth being "fixed and immovable" contradict the whole notion of Universal Acceleration?
It's clearly referencing the equivalence principle.

The topic is, "The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat" not "The Bible doesn't describe a flat earth".
With Christians claiming the Bible is the inerrant word of God, and thus using it to "prove" whatever it describes.

From the OP it seems more akin to the topic being if the Bible indicates Earth is flat.

After all, the Bible can prove basically nothing about the world.
Science can also prove basically nothing about the world. Seems like its on even footing. Why are you for circular logic when its used to justify science, but not the bible?
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markjo

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2019, 08:35:08 AM »
Just out of curiosity, doesn't the verse about the earth being "fixed and immovable" contradict the whole notion of Universal Acceleration?
It's clearly referencing the equivalence principle.
How so?  It seems to me that the biblical claim of "fixed and immovable" is pretty much the exact opposite of the FE "constant acceleration" claim.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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