What is common to both Flat and Globe model?

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Macarios

  • 2093
What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« on: June 16, 2019, 12:57:43 AM »
Flat and Globe model both talk about Earth.
So, that's one thing they have in common.

We all agree that Sun makes full circle directly above Equator for each Equinox.
This is the latitude zero, and this is the same in Flat and Globe model.
We also agree that Sun makes full circle directly above Tropic of Cancer for December solstice
and above Tropic of Capricorn for June solstice.

So, Equator and the two Tropics are at the same place in both models.

We also agree that all spots that have solar noon at the same moment are at the same meridian.

All distances from the North pole are the same in Flat and in Globe model.
In both models Stockholm is 3405 kilometers from North pole, Otawa 4949 km and Sacramento 5712 km.

What else Flat and Globe models have in common?
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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JackBlack

  • 20587
Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2019, 02:26:56 AM »
We all agree that Sun makes full circle directly above Equator for each Equinox.
Not quite.
The bipolar FEers reject that as the equator isn't a circle for them.

It seems the main things FEers and REers have in common is that they both accept the existence of the sun, Earth and moon. That something makes us seem to go down, whether that be some force pushing/pulling us down, or Earth accelerating upwards.
And that at least at small scales, you can map a region with minimal error, and that other than the potential upwards acceleration, most agree that we don't feel Earth moving.

Other than that, due to the multitude of FE models which exist I find there is extremely little overlap.
There are widely different heights for the sun. Some have the sun/moon as flat, some as round.
Some have the NP at the centre, others have the SP at the centre, others have a point on the equator.
Some have NS distances matching, others have distance to 0, 0 matching, others have massively different distances.

Each model has some overlap, but a lot is then contradicted by other models.

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Macarios

  • 2093
Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2019, 05:06:22 AM »
The bipolar FEers reject that as the equator isn't a circle for them.

Ok, we can just exclude the word "circle".
Sun for each Equinox directly above the Equator travels its full length in 24 hours.

EDIT: Actually, Sun each day travels along the corresponding latitude for that day, and each
travel lasts 24 hours. All those latitudes are between two Tropics.

Each latitude can be divided into 360 segments that we call "degrees of longitude",
and during each hour Sun travels across 15 of those degrees.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 05:14:39 AM by Macarios »
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2019, 09:59:40 AM »
Ha
they both agree that really big circles exist.
Re - curvature of the earth means perceptual curve and angular motion arent noticed by the naked eye/ inner ear.

Fe - plane travels in a circle around north pole.
Youre drawn into the north so you never really feel the slight turning of the plane.

Amazingly cognitive dissonance where its impossible on one hand, possible on the other.

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Macarios

  • 2093
Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2019, 10:31:33 AM »
Meridian Zero goes through Greenwich in both FE and GE model.
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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sokarul

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Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2019, 10:33:34 AM »
Tom also claimed the sun doesn’t rise due east on the equinox.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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Macarios

  • 2093
Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2019, 10:37:43 AM »
Tom also claimed the sun doesn’t rise due east on the equinox.

Anyone can measure azimuth of the sunrise for Equinox and see if he's telling the truth.

If he really said that then he obviously didn't check it out.
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2019, 10:49:18 AM »
The sun rises multiple sun diameters away from East: https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox

Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2019, 11:11:45 AM »
The sun rises multiple sun diameters away from East: https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox
You say there are false claims, there are none.

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sokarul

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ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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wise

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Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2019, 01:51:06 PM »
All measurements are equal in Europe.
They hate me cause they can't control me.

"The greatest sacrifice is not what you do for others, but what you give up to do for yourself."


Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2019, 02:06:49 PM »
All measurements are equal in Europe.
That statement is FALSE

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wise

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Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2019, 02:07:46 PM »
All measurements are equal in Europe.
That statement is FALSE
Prove.
They hate me cause they can't control me.

"The greatest sacrifice is not what you do for others, but what you give up to do for yourself."


Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2019, 03:12:01 PM »
All measurements are equal in Europe.
That statement is FALSE
Prove.
It is easy to prove.  Established RE distances are as follows (in km)
Lisbon to Ankara: 3544km
Ankara to Dublin: 3267km
Dublin to Lisbon: 1342km
Lisbon to Helsinki: 3361km
Ankara to Helsinki: 2332 km
Dublin to Helsinki: 2024

If you try to lay out these distances on a flat sheet of paper, you cannot do it. Look at the image below.  The distances between Lisbon, Ankara, and Helsinki set the relative positions of those three on the "map", like in a triangle, and then the distances between Lisbon, Ankara, and Dublin set the position of Dublin on the map, forming a second triangle.

At this point, Dublin and Helsinki are fixed on the map, but they measure about 2650 km instead of the RE number of 2024km.

The reason you can't do it is because RE distances cannot be accurately shown on a flat map. They are not the same. It's the same problem your rubbish flat earth map has.


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wise

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Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2019, 01:00:23 AM »
All measurements are equal in Europe.
That statement is FALSE
Prove.
It is easy to prove.  Established RE distances are as follows (in km)
Lisbon to Ankara: 3544km
Ankara to Dublin: 3267km
Dublin to Lisbon: 1342km
Lisbon to Helsinki: 3361km
Ankara to Helsinki: 2332 km
Dublin to Helsinki: 2024

If you try to lay out these distances on a flat sheet of paper, you cannot do it. Look at the image below.  The distances between Lisbon, Ankara, and Helsinki set the relative positions of those three on the "map", like in a triangle, and then the distances between Lisbon, Ankara, and Dublin set the position of Dublin on the map, forming a second triangle.

At this point, Dublin and Helsinki are fixed on the map, but they measure about 2650 km instead of the RE number of 2024km.

The reason you can't do it is because RE distances cannot be accurately shown on a flat map. They are not the same. It's the same problem your rubbish flat earth map has.


I can't see the following image and I have my own unique flat earth map. Since it is in autocad format we can calculate every distance. I am using this one and everytime using same map. So there is nothing wrong here.

I can use only cities which exist on map. Since I am not living in Ankara but Istanbul, my map includes Istanbul and I will use it too.



Cities / Distances RE / distances FE

Istanbul to Wien: 1274kms / 1277 kms
Antalya to London: 2911 kms / 2998 kms
London to Madrid: 1263kms / 1257 kms
Lisbon to Rome: 1864 kms / 1838 kms
Rome to Antalya: 1654 kms/ 1660kms
Athens to Paris: 2096 kms / 2098 kms

The cities you have used; Ankara and Dublin aren't exist in my map. Helsinki has colored as white means its place not verified. I've used only Lisbon from your list. Other cities I've used some have green color means its place reliable and has yellow color means it perfectly verified cities. It seems a logical coreleation between distances. You can compare map shown here with the map I officially use. (LINK)

Your claiming ist being false doesn't make it magically false. We have to use a map I accept as a flat earth map, not yours. Because I am the flat earther here, not you are. I am using most true flat earth map ever. I accept other maps but not distances on them.
They hate me cause they can't control me.

"The greatest sacrifice is not what you do for others, but what you give up to do for yourself."


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Macarios

  • 2093
Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2019, 02:28:31 AM »
The sun rises multiple sun diameters away from East: https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox

Please measure it yourself, and then talk about it.

Some of us did, and everyone else also can do it.
We have two equinoxes each year.
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

*

JackBlack

  • 20587
Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2019, 02:33:17 AM »
Cities / Distances RE / distances FE
Istanbul to Wien: 1274kms / 1277 kms
Antalya to London: 2911 kms / 2998 kms
London to Madrid: 1263kms / 1257 kms
Lisbon to Rome: 1864 kms / 1838 kms
Rome to Antalya: 1654 kms/ 1660kms
Athens to Paris: 2096 kms / 2098 kms
I might not have a PhD in FEism, but last time I checked:
1274 != 1277
2911 != 2998
1263 != 1257
1864 != 1838
1654 != 1660
2096 != 2098

(Note: != means not equal.

So there you have it.
Proof that FE distances don't match RE distances (at least assuming you reported the distances correctly).

Or does your brand of FEism include 2 different numbers being equal when it suits you as well?


P.S.
A better comparison might be this:
1274 < 1277
2911 < 2998
1263 > 1257
1864 > 1838
1654 < 1660
2096 < 2098
So we can see it isn't even just an issue of scaling, but an issue of the distances just not matching.

P.P.S. Your FE map isn't any truer than any other FE map.

P.S.S. We aren't just talking about you, but FE in general, which means we need to discuss all FE maps.

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Macarios

  • 2093
Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2019, 02:40:00 AM »
So, which map is closer to accurate: Wise's or Rowbotham's?

Anyone knows?
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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wise

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Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2019, 02:46:56 AM »
Cities / Distances RE / distances FE
Istanbul to Wien: 1274kms / 1277 kms
Antalya to London: 2911 kms / 2998 kms
London to Madrid: 1263kms / 1257 kms
Lisbon to Rome: 1864 kms / 1838 kms
Rome to Antalya: 1654 kms/ 1660kms
Athens to Paris: 2096 kms / 2098 kms
I might not have a PhD in FEism, but last time I checked:
1274 != 1277
2911 != 2998
1263 != 1257
1864 != 1838
1654 != 1660
2096 != 2098

(Note: != means not equal.

So there you have it.

It is because you are ignorant about mapping.

these values ​​are calculated according to airports. The approach angle and length of airports may cause these values ​​to vary between certain limits. The fact that an airfield is at a different angle can cause the average distance to be perceived differently on average by 20 kilometers. Hence;

1274 = 1277
2911 != 2998
1263 = 1257
1864 = 1838
1654 = 1660
2096 = 2098

5 values are completely same and one different; difference of 2911 and 2998: 3%. seems acceptable considering rest of others being same. Average differences: 3% / 6 = 0,5 % in mathematical error range. It means they overlap. Surely, you do not have to accept this and continue your childish objections.
They hate me cause they can't control me.

"The greatest sacrifice is not what you do for others, but what you give up to do for yourself."


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wise

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Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2019, 02:50:10 AM »
So, which map is closer to accurate: Wise's or Rowbotham's?

Anyone knows?

Rowbotham's map was accurate compared maps in his time. Today we have more facility and more accurate maps, naturally.
They hate me cause they can't control me.

"The greatest sacrifice is not what you do for others, but what you give up to do for yourself."


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JackBlack

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Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2019, 03:30:45 AM »
It is because you are ignorant about mapping.
No, it is because your map doesn't match reality, and no FE map will match RE.

one different; difference of 2911 and 2998
And that means they don't agree.
Distances are not the same between FE and RE.
Yes, for some small distances you will have them matching, because a FE does approximate a RE on small scales.

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wise

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Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2019, 03:40:19 AM »
No, it is because your map doesn't match reality, and no FE map will match RE.
You've proved how you are ignorant. I have not claimed FE map' match the RE map. I told its matching in Europe and proved it.
And that means they don't agree.
There is a term acceptable error, did not you ever heard this?
Distances are not the same between FE and RE.
No, they are in Europe.
Yes, for some small distances you will have them matching, because a FE does approximate a RE on small scales.
Simple because I've used 100.000 flights make my FE map perfect. There isn't an estimation while creating the map. All is calculated, oppositely RE BS.
They hate me cause they can't control me.

"The greatest sacrifice is not what you do for others, but what you give up to do for yourself."


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Macarios

  • 2093
Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2019, 03:42:48 AM »
So, which map is closer to accurate: Wise's or Rowbotham's?

Anyone knows?

Rowbotham's map was accurate compared maps in his time. Today we have more facility and more accurate maps, naturally.

Ok, let's see the shape of the coastal line of Great Britain island (where England Wales and Scotland are).
They measured it using sextants, measuring tapes, theodolites and other equipment.
They did great job.
They know how to do it.
They were accurate.
They also measured the other isles in the vicinity.



So, what is common would be coastal lines of British Isles?
Also, coastal lines of Europe?

(Same method was used to measure North America, Europe, Asia, Africa...
They still know how to do it, do they?)

Wise, they measured distance from London to Istanbul to be 2501 km.
How far apart are London and Istanbul on your map?
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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wise

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Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2019, 03:49:18 AM »
So, which map is closer to accurate: Wise's or Rowbotham's?

Anyone knows?

Rowbotham's map was accurate compared maps in his time. Today we have more facility and more accurate maps, naturally.

Ok, let's see the shape of the coastal line of Great Britain island (where England Wales and Scotland are).
They measured it using sextants, measuring tapes, theodolites and other equipment.
They did great job.
They know how to do it.
They were accurate.
They also measured the other isles in the vicinity.



So, what is common would be coastal lines of British Isles?
Also, coastal lines of Europe?

(Same method was used to measure North America, Europe, Asia, Africa...
They still know how to do it, do they?)

Wise, they measured distance from London to Istanbul to be 2501 km.
How far apart are London and Istanbul on your map?

While they have measure what was I doing? I was measuring too. Just our methods are different. I am measuring the distances by using aircrafts. I am using flight time and they are using some photos and now some cartography softwares.

I've measured it as 2.568 kms. I believe its being acceptable difference considering both cities have many airports cause some mistakes.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 03:51:03 AM by wise »
They hate me cause they can't control me.

"The greatest sacrifice is not what you do for others, but what you give up to do for yourself."


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JackBlack

  • 20587
Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2019, 04:04:52 AM »
No, they are in Europe.
Again, you have shown they are not.
If you want to discuss "acceptable error" (better known as uncertainty), then the RE distances are known accurately to within a km and can easily be googled. When you look at specific locations, you can get it even more accurately.

You have said your error is 20 km.
Yet you provide a disagreement of 87 km.
That means it is not "acceptable error" and instead they are 2 different values.

So once again, you have shown that your FE distances for Europe does not agree with RE values.

Simple because I've used 100.000 flights make my FE map perfect.
Your map is not perfect in any sense of the word.
You repeatedly ignoring the problems doesn't magically make them disappear.

Your method uses massive amounts of approximation as you are relying upon cherry picked flights, and trying to use the flight time with a bunch of estimation to determine the distance.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2019, 04:10:51 AM »
What is common to both Flat and Globe model?

Stalwart adherence.

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Macarios

  • 2093
Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2019, 04:18:23 AM »
I've measured it as 2.568 kms. I believe its being acceptable difference considering both cities have many airports cause some mistakes.

The 68 km of the difference is all the way from Istanbul to Gölcük.
Or from London all the way to Cambridge.
The error is "just" 2.7%, but very far from acceptable if you are aiming intercontinental ballistic missile at London.
Using Globe map ballistic projecties can have accuracy within meters.

Ok, let me ask you this simple question:
How far is from North Pole to Equator?
(How far is it in real world?)
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

*

Macarios

  • 2093
Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2019, 04:19:53 AM »
What is common to both Flat and Globe model?

Stalwart adherence.

That would be common to people who support one or another, not to maps themselves. :)
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

*

wise

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Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2019, 04:33:44 AM »
I've measured it as 2.568 kms. I believe its being acceptable difference considering both cities have many airports cause some mistakes.

The 68 km of the difference is all the way from Istanbul to Gölcük.
Or from London all the way to Cambridge.
The error is "just" 2.7%, but very far from acceptable if you are aiming intercontinental ballistic missile at London.
Using Globe map ballistic projecties can have accuracy within meters.

Ok, let me ask you this simple question:
How far is from North Pole to Equator?
(How far is it in real world?)

Sorry, I can not deal all your questions. Because autocad is eating RAM device hardly. It doesn't mean my maps being wrong if there is 2,7% mistake between Istanbul and London. It is because globularist map is wrong. I don't think anybody tried to use a ballistic missile between Istanbul and London. Perhaps they will miss. Do you know more than half, even 70% of American rockets could not hit Syrian military bases because of map mistakes, not because of S300 air defence existance. ;D
They hate me cause they can't control me.

"The greatest sacrifice is not what you do for others, but what you give up to do for yourself."


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Macarios

  • 2093
Re: What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2019, 04:37:01 AM »
I've measured it as 2.568 kms. I believe its being acceptable difference considering both cities have many airports cause some mistakes.

The 68 km of the difference is all the way from Istanbul to Gölcük.
Or from London all the way to Cambridge.
The error is "just" 2.7%, but very far from acceptable if you are aiming intercontinental ballistic missile at London.
Using Globe map ballistic projecties can have accuracy within meters.

Ok, let me ask you this simple question:
How far is from North Pole to Equator?
(How far is it in real world?)

Sorry, I can not deal all your questions. Because autocad is eating RAM device hardly. It doesn't mean my maps being wrong if there is 2,7% mistake between Istanbul and London. It is because globularist map is wrong. I don't think anybody tried to use a ballistic missile between Istanbul and London. Perhaps they will miss. Do you know more than half, even 70% of American rockets could not hit Syrian military bases because of map mistakes, not because of S300 air defence existance. ;D

Hitler was using Globe map to send his V1 and V2 to London, and he would be pretty accurate if RAF wasn't kicking lot of them off the sky.

EDIT: He was also hitting many other sites all over the England.
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.