I want to pin down the GPS conspiracy, I think I found it

Thousands of balloons would need to be launched every day from thousands of locations [snip] If all these balloons were being launched on a regular basis someone would notice! It’s just an idea that too crazy to contemplate unless you happen to be......

Well, weather balloons are an irrelevance really.   The system can only trilaterate your position as it knows exactly where a particular satellite is for any given time.  How would a load of weather little balloons floating around do this?

What some flatties have suggested is pseudolites in the form of high altitude balloons, which would probably need to be tethered as well as being very large.  I think they would be noticed, especially in the numbers they would need to be deployed in.

It would also become very obvious that GPS receivers were receiving signals from fixed positions, rather than orbitting satellites.

Would people notice 900 balloons a day if each one contained a $100,000 atomic clock?

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on January 30, 2019, 06:54:03 AM

Well, weather balloons are an irrelevance really.   The system can only trilaterate your position as it knows exactly where a particular satellite is for any given time.  How would a load of weather little balloons floating around do this?

What some flatties have suggested is pseudolites in the form of high altitude balloons, which would probably need to be tethered as well as being very large.  I think they would be noticed, especially in the numbers they would need to be deployed in.

It would also become very obvious that GPS receivers were receiving signals from fixed positions, rather than orbitting satellites.

Well, actually, your post is an irrelevance. Lonegranger asserts that someone would notice thousands of balloons launched daily. I'm giving an actual example of 1600-1800 balloons launched daily and asking if he has any personal or secondhand sighting knowledge of these balloons, and whether he or anyone he knows can identify the purpose of an electonics package in such a case. If not, then it lessens the credibility of his argument (which I believe he invented because he thinks it must be true) that a valid argument against balloon GPS is that someone who cares would see and identify such a balloon.

I tend to think that speculating about the limitations of ingenuity shows lack of ingenuity in the speculator.

Would people notice 900 balloons a day if each one contained a $100,000 atomic clock?

Wow, I don't know who's rustled your jimmies.  I wasn't having a pop at your point.

I tend to think whoever wrote this is trying to sound clever, without actually saying anything. 

Quote from: Lonegranger on January 30, 2019, 01:06:52 AM

Thousands of balloons would need to be launched every day from thousands of locations [snip] If all these balloons were being launched on a regular basis someone would notice! It’s just an idea that too crazy to contemplate unless you happen to be......

"Someone would notice." This is an interesting argument. 800-900 "weather balloons" are launched twice daily around the world. Conservatively, that's half a million per year. Have you ever seen one? Has anyone you've ever talked to seen one? And even if a friend of a friend remembers seeing one two or three years ago, can they identify what's in the electronics package hanging underneath?

Quote from: sokarul on January 30, 2019, 07:46:55 AM

Would people notice 900 balloons a day if each one contained a $100,000 atomic clock?

You'd have to ask Lonegranger ... it's his scenario.

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on January 30, 2019, 06:54:03 AM

Well, weather balloons are an irrelevance really.   The system can only trilaterate your position as it knows exactly where a particular satellite is for any given time.  How would a load of weather little balloons floating around do this?

What some flatties have suggested is pseudolites in the form of high altitude balloons, which would probably need to be tethered as well as being very large.  I think they would be noticed, especially in the numbers they would need to be deployed in.

It would also become very obvious that GPS receivers were receiving signals from fixed positions, rather than orbitting satellites.

Well, actually, your post is an irrelevance. Lonegranger asserts that someone would notice thousands of balloons launched daily. I'm giving an actual example of 1600-1800 balloons launched daily and asking if he has any personal or secondhand sighting knowledge of these balloons, and whether he or anyone he knows can identify the purpose of an electonics package in such a case. If not, then it lessens the credibility of his argument (which I believe he invented because he thinks it must be true) that a valid argument against balloon GPS is that someone who cares would see and identify such a balloon. You then go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with that, along with speculation about how a system would have to work. I tend to think that speculating about the limitations of ingenuity shows lack of ingenuity in the speculator.

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on January 30, 2019, 06:54:03 AM

Well, weather balloons are an irrelevance really.   The system can only trilaterate your position as it knows exactly where a particular satellite is for any given time.  How would a load of weather little balloons floating around do this?

What some flatties have suggested is pseudolites in the form of high altitude balloons, which would probably need to be tethered as well as being very large.  I think they would be noticed, especially in the numbers they would need to be deployed in.

It would also become very obvious that GPS receivers were receiving signals from fixed positions, rather than orbitting satellites.

Well, actually, your post is an irrelevance. Lonegranger asserts that someone would notice thousands of balloons launched daily. I'm giving an actual example of 1600-1800 balloons launched daily and asking if he has any personal or secondhand sighting knowledge of these balloons, and whether he or anyone he knows can identify the purpose of an electonics package in such a case. If not, then it lessens the credibility of his argument (which I believe he invented because he thinks it must be true) that a valid argument against balloon GPS is that someone who cares would see and identify such a balloon. You then go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with that, along with speculation about how a system would have to work. I tend to think that speculating about the limitations of ingenuity shows lack of ingenuity in the speculator.

I take it you have heard of journalists....of the investigative variety? Their aim is to find stories. `I think if thousands of balloons were launched each day, someone would notice given their 2 hour life. Lets say 2000 balloons are required for the continental USA, thats 24,000 for each 24 hour period, making a total of 876,000 balloons per year!...I think questions would be being asked about all the rubber littering the countryside! Its just too silly for words.

Quote from: Lonegranger on January 30, 2019, 11:39:03 AM

I take it you have heard of journalists....of the investigative variety? Their aim is to find stories. `I think if thousands of balloons were launched each day, someone would notice given their 2 hour life. Lets say 2000 balloons are required for the continental USA, thats 24,000 for each 24 hour period, making a total of 876,000 balloons per year!...I think questions would be being asked about all the rubber littering the countryside! Its just too silly for words.

How would you run a GPS system off loads of weather balloons floating about?

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on January 31, 2019, 03:02:41 AM

Quote from: Lonegranger on January 30, 2019, 11:39:03 AM

I take it you have heard of journalists....of the investigative variety? Their aim is to find stories. `I think if thousands of balloons were launched each day, someone would notice given their 2 hour life. Lets say 2000 balloons are required for the continental USA, thats 24,000 for each 24 hour period, making a total of 876,000 balloons per year!...I think questions would be being asked about all the rubber littering the countryside! Its just too silly for words.

How would you run a GPS system off loads of weather balloons floating about?

I'm hesitant to post this reply, as it is likely to draw a rash of "What about X?" "What about Y?" "How do you explain Z?" "But it doesn't do ..." that are all complaints about how the system in this reply differs from the existing GPS system. Or about the details of current weather balloon launches.

Take this reply, rather, as an answer to the question "Is it possible to create -- at this point, say, imagine -- a positioning system using balloons rather than satellites?" in response to the thought "There is no possible way for balloons to create a global positioning system."

Ground positioning stations 100-200-300 miles apart are used as positioning fiducials. Balloons with receivers and transmitters triangulate their own positions from ground stations. Balloons reaching heights of 30,000 ft should be able to reach a ground stations within a 400 mile diameter circle, and balloons can reach 60K, 80K, 100K ft. Balloons can stay aloft for months, with the current record for a stratospheric balloon continuous flight of over 6 months. Commercial companies have demonstrated the ability to use high-altitude balloon networks for LTE cell phone communication. Patents for untethered station-keeping stratospheric balloons have been applied for. Each balloon that triangulates its own position then becomes a secondary fiducial. Even though these secondary fiducials are in motion, their instantaneous position is kept track of. Secondary fiducials can then triangulate the positions of balloons out of range of ground stations. Balloons at altitude have even longer ranges to see other balloons. Similar to how a network of measuring stations started at the coast of India to work inwards (The Great Trigonometrical Survey), bootstrapping each new point on data from previous points, a network of points (many of which are moving) is created. Accumulated errors from just using secondary fiducials is mitigated by connecting up with other ground stations (say on the other side of an ocean) to make a global network of points, some stationary, some in motion. That network is then the basis for a user determining location from an unknown point.

There is nothing conceptually impossible about this system.

In 2 dimensions for position measurements: Intersection of circles of constant distance from each transmitter.		In 3 dimensions over the Globe: Intersection of spheres of constant distance from each transmitter.
From: GIS Geography, Trilateration vs Triangulation – How GPS Receivers Work

"Stratolites" can give a good Horizontal Dilution of Precision but very poor Vertical Dilution of Precision

Some transmitters ("stratolites" or satellites) are needed near overhead for a good VDOP.

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on January 31, 2019, 03:02:41 AM

Quote from: Lonegranger on January 30, 2019, 11:39:03 AM

I take it you have heard of journalists....of the investigative variety? Their aim is to find stories. `I think if thousands of balloons were launched each day, someone would notice given their 2 hour life. Lets say 2000 balloons are required for the continental USA, thats 24,000 for each 24 hour period, making a total of 876,000 balloons per year!...I think questions would be being asked about all the rubber littering the countryside! Its just too silly for words.

How would you run a GPS system off loads of weather balloons floating about?

I'm hesitant to post this reply, as it is likely to draw a rash of "What about X?" "What about Y?" "How do you explain Z?" "But it doesn't do ..." that are all complaints about how the system in this reply differs from the existing GPS system. Or about the details of current weather balloon launches.

Take this reply, rather, as an answer to the question "Is it possible to create -- at this point, say, imagine -- a positioning system using balloons rather than satellites?" in response to the thought "There is no possible way for balloons to create a global positioning system."

Ground positioning stations 100-200-300 miles apart are used as positioning fiducials. Balloons with receivers and transmitters triangulate their own positions from ground stations. Balloons reaching heights of 30,000 ft should be able to reach a ground stations within a 400 mile diameter circle, and balloons can reach 60K, 80K, 100K ft. Balloons can stay aloft for months, with the current record for a stratospheric balloon continuous flight of over 6 months. Commercial companies have demonstrated the ability to use high-altitude balloon networks for LTE cell phone communication. Patents for untethered station-keeping stratospheric balloons have been applied for. Each balloon that triangulates its own position then becomes a secondary fiducial. Even though these secondary fiducials are in motion, their instantaneous position is kept track of. Secondary fiducials can then triangulate the positions of balloons out of range of ground stations. Balloons at altitude have even longer ranges to see other balloons. Similar to how a network of measuring stations started at the coast of India to work inwards (The Great Trigonometrical Survey), bootstrapping each new point on data from previous points, a network of points (many of which are moving) is created. Accumulated errors from just using secondary fiducials is mitigated by connecting up with other ground stations (say on the other side of an ocean) to make a global network of points, some stationary, some in motion. That network is then the basis for a user determining location from an unknown point.

There is nothing conceptually impossible about this system.

Possibly, but there is a serious problem when ...

I think the satellite option is easier. You initially mentioned weather balloons in your post which I replied to, as its they that have a 2 hour life.
Six months aloft for a balloon? Do you have a link to that? If so how far did it travel? I wonder if airlines were happy with this idea?

Quote from: Lonegranger on January 31, 2019, 02:32:32 PM

I think the satellite option is easier. You initially mentioned weather balloons in your post which I replied to, as its they that have a 2 hour life.
Six months aloft for a balloon? Do you have a link to that? If so how far did it travel? I wonder if airlines were happy with this idea?

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-google-makes-project-loon-balloons-2016-8

Quote from: Curiouser and Curiouser on January 31, 2019, 02:54:57 PM

Quote from: Lonegranger on January 31, 2019, 02:32:32 PM

I think the satellite option is easier. You initially mentioned weather balloons in your post which I replied to, as its they that have a 2 hour life.
Six months aloft for a balloon? Do you have a link to that? If so how far did it travel? I wonder if airlines were happy with this idea?

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-google-makes-project-loon-balloons-2016-8

But simply for phone and Internet access in remote regions, not for GNSS transmitters.
Even if they did contain GNSS transmitters such a system could only provide useful height measurements over a very limited region
Almost all aircraft now have available both
          "GPS" altitude, best for terrain clearance, and
          "pressure altimeters", as required by regulation for altitude clearance from other aircraft.

No, for the answer to the question that was asked about a link to a reference about a balloon that was aloft for 6 months.

Quote from: Curiouser and Curiouser on January 31, 2019, 06:38:47 PM

No, for the answer to the question that was asked about a link to a reference about a balloon that was aloft for 6 months.

The topic is "I want to pin down the GPS conspiracy, I think I found it" and my point has always been that balloons of whatever life cannot explain the GPS.

So it matters little whether they last days or years unless there are sufficient for no region of earth to be over say 60 km from the closest 4 "stratolites".

But carry on.

Quote from: rabinoz on January 31, 2019, 06:53:36 PM

Quote from: Curiouser and Curiouser on January 31, 2019, 06:38:47 PM

No, for the answer to the question that was asked about a link to a reference about a balloon that was aloft for 6 months.

The topic is "I want to pin down the GPS conspiracy, I think I found it" and my point has always been that balloons of whatever life cannot explain the GPS.

So it matters little whether they last days or years unless there are sufficient for no region of earth to be over say 60 km from the closest 4 "stratolites".

But carry on.

Link requested.

Link provided.

Unnecessary rabsplaining.

With the "stratolites" (or whatever you want to call them) 400 miles away and no more than 100,000 ft high the geometry is very good for position measurements but very poor for height measurements.

At the extreme range of 400 miles the elevation angle is no more than 2.7° above the horizon. This would increase the height error by a factor of over 20.
The vertical errors of GNSS measurements are already somewhat worse than position errors but an extra factor of over 20 would be intolerable.

For reasonably accurate height measurements some transmitters should be more than 30° above the horizon, which doubles the expected errors.
If this were to be achieved using "stratolites" some would need to be no further than about 40 miles (about 60 km) away.

I can't explain/ask clearly enough, try again.

People at multiple GPS reciever companies at multiple companies would have to debug their new designs. This would involve knowing the exact position and distance. To debug it, you would look at the raw data from multiple satellites and their locations. When the receiver reported your position correctly, it works. In this process you would unavoidably have to accurately know where the transmitter4 is. If there were no satellites, they woud know it.

The point is, if there are no satellites, engineers at 14+ companies worldwide would know the satellites are a lie, or they are ballons, or whatever. My point was that a few people at NASA is not sufficient to hide the conspiracy, it would include 14+ companies.

Someone postulating a conspiracy to hide FE has to account for:

1. GPS works
2. Hundreds of people in various companies in various countries have access to the raw data on what GPS is
3. The raw data makes no sense without accurate location of transmitter
4. The engineers know where the transmitter is
5. A NASA conspiracy would have to include all these GPS companies, every engineer that worked on a receiver, probably hundreds