The sun

What do you guys believe that the sun is made out of and how do you think that it works?

What do you guys believe that the sun is made out of and how do you think that it works?

The sun is of course made mostly of hydrogen and helium, but as the earth is flat, the sun itself has to rotate around the earth but its sunlight doesn't make contact with the bottom of the earth as it doesn't go underneath, it goes around the side.

Quote from: peeprz on June 05, 2018, 11:26:57 AM

What do you guys believe that the sun is made out of and how do you think that it works?

The sun is of course made mostly of hydrogen and helium, but as the earth is flat, the sun itself has to rotate around the earth but its sunlight doesn't make contact with the bottom of the earth as it doesn't go underneath, it goes around the side.

This appears to be different from the usual FE model. Do you have a diagram to explain or support it?

Quote from: peeprz on June 05, 2018, 11:26:57 AM

What do you guys believe that the sun is made out of and how do you think that it works?

The sun is of course made mostly of hydrogen and helium, but as the earth is flat, the sun itself has to rotate around the earth but its sunlight doesn't make contact with the bottom of the earth as it doesn't go underneath, it goes around the side.

I think it's important to note that we really only the outershell(s) of the sun we have the most idea of the composition of. Helium is a fission product, and hydrogen is apparently the most abundant element in the universe. So a fissionable sun is not an impossibility.

I think it's important to note that we really only the outershell(s) of the sun we have the most idea of the composition of. Helium is a fission product, and hydrogen is apparently the most abundant element in the universe. So a fissionable sun is not an impossibility.

I think you mean "fusion" rather than "fission" right?

I do not. Fission can also take place under high pressures, and helium is one of the more common products.
That it is also a product of hydrogen fusion, is not debated.

I do not. Fission can also take place under high pressures, and helium is one of the more common products.
That it is also a product of hydrogen fusion, is not debated.

What atom is undergoing fission, to produce helium? And what other atoms are produced?  Where as hydrogen undergoes Fusion to produce helium.

Lithium, for example, produces he4 and tritium (which decays naturally into he3) under neutron bombardment.

Lithium, for example, produces he4 and tritium (which decays naturally into he3) under neutron bombardment.

No lithium or tritium have been detected in the sun, where does the neutrino bombardment come from?

From fission. Uranium isotopes frequently decay to He6, as well.

I don't know where exactly you are getting core composition from, but you can bet if there is sufficient fissible material on earth, that the sun has it in abundance.

It is true the outer shells of the sun primarily appear to consist of hydrogen and helium.

hydrogen = 70%
helium = 28%
Carbon, nitrogen and oxygen = 1.5%
Other = 0.5%

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Yes, that is derived from the spectra of the chromosphere, and hence would be a solid indicator of what exists there. I should be as very impressed that large quantities of uranium and other heavy metals were in the chromosphere of the sun as I would if they existed in the earth's atmosplane.   On the otherhand, they do exist in earth's core. 

Quote from: peeprz on June 05, 2018, 11:26:57 AM

What do you guys believe that the sun is made out of and how do you think that it works?

The sun is of course made mostly of hydrogen and helium, but as the earth is flat, the sun itself has to rotate around the earth but its sunlight doesn't make contact with the bottom of the earth as it doesn't go underneath, it goes around the side.

I don't think that this actually answers OP question. He asked what the sun is made of and how it works(as I understood, how "it is hot")

Yes, that is derived from the spectra of the chromosphere, and hence would be a solid indicator of what exists there. I should be as very impressed that large quantities of uranium and other heavy metals were in the chromosphere of the sun as I would if they existed in the earth's atmosplane.   On the otherhand, they do exist in earth's core. 

As of present day, though, the Sun's core is much too cool to burn anything other than hydrogen into helium. So the core of the Sun is ~15,700,000K, but the triple-alpha process that converts helium to carbon takes place at ~100,000,000K depending on the pressure, or 6X the temperature of the Sun's core. (The CNO cycle also contributes a little bit to the fusion process). So no fission is taking place, only fusion. It's not hot enough yet.

The heavy are only remnants of the Sun's formation.

L.E.N.R. low energy nuclear reactions - a concept that could (should?) change our understanding of nucular physics.

Quote from: Ski on June 10, 2018, 02:10:31 PM

Yes, that is derived from the spectra of the chromosphere, and hence would be a solid indicator of what exists there. I should be as very impressed that large quantities of uranium and other heavy metals were in the chromosphere of the sun as I would if they existed in the earth's atmosplane.   On the otherhand, they do exist in earth's core. 

As of present day, though, the Sun's core is much too cool to burn anything other than hydrogen into helium. So the core of the Sun is ~15,700,000K, but the triple-alpha process that converts helium to carbon takes place at ~100,000,000K depending on the pressure, or 6X the temperature of the Sun's core. (The CNO cycle also contributes a little bit to the fusion process). So no fission is taking place, only fusion. It's not hot enough yet.

The heavy are only remnants of the Sun's formation.

That is certainly the leading globular hypothesis, yes. Or at least the basic gist. The higher temperature requirements, however, would be to sustain fusion of heavier elements (in your example, helium to carbon), not fission. Fission occurs naturally, even on earh without temperatures hotter than the sun required to initiate it.

Quote from: nickrulercreator on June 16, 2018, 06:48:47 PM

Quote from: Ski on June 10, 2018, 02:10:31 PM

Yes, that is derived from the spectra of the chromosphere, and hence would be a solid indicator of what exists there. I should be as very impressed that large quantities of uranium and other heavy metals were in the chromosphere of the sun as I would if they existed in the earth's atmosplane.   On the otherhand, they do exist in earth's core. 

As of present day, though, the Sun's core is much too cool to burn anything other than hydrogen into helium. So the core of the Sun is ~15,700,000K, but the triple-alpha process that converts helium to carbon takes place at ~100,000,000K depending on the pressure, or 6X the temperature of the Sun's core. (The CNO cycle also contributes a little bit to the fusion process). So no fission is taking place, only fusion. It's not hot enough yet.

The heavy are only remnants of the Sun's formation.

That is certainly the leading globular hypothesis, yes. Or at least the basic gist. The higher temperature requirements, however, would be to sustain fusion of heavier elements (in your example, helium to carbon), not fission. Fission occurs naturally, even on earh without temperatures hotter than the sun required to initiate it.

Huh? Fission is the process of splitting an atom, not making a heavier one. I don't understand what you're trying to say. Helium can't become a heavier element through fission. That happens through fusion, for which the sun isn't hot enough yet.

You're the one who conflated fusion and fission. I just corrected you.

You're the one who conflated fusion and fission. I just corrected you.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Let me see for a second.

So, fusion is the creation of heavy atoms by joining together lighter atoms.

Fission is the creation of light atoms by breaking heavier atoms apart.

You seem to be claiming that the helium in the sun is created by fission, even though the amount of heavy elements in the sun needed to create the amount of helium we've observed doesn't exist in the sun. If this is incorrect, please correct me.

So, where did all the helium come from?

You seem to be claiming that the helium in the sun is created by fission, even though the amount of heavy elements in the sun needed to create the amount of helium we've observed doesn't exist in the sun

I noted He could be created by either process. I do not know which. I only pointed out the existence of helium did not exclude fission as a process. Further, it could be a particle process instead or nuclear one.
I don't know where your assertions about the lack of heavier elements come from.
Then you added something about higher temperatures needed for fission to take place which is also demonstrably false.

where did all the helium come from

From nuclear processes. Somewhere. Where does the helium in a balloon come from? Do you propose a secret fusion technology for party balloons?

Quote

You seem to be claiming that the helium in the sun is created by fission, even though the amount of heavy elements in the sun needed to create the amount of helium we've observed doesn't exist in the sun

I noted He could be created by either process. I do not know which. I only pointed out the existence of helium did not exclude fission as a process.

The likelihood of it being fission is very low, though, because there are very, very few heavy elements in the Sun, while most of the Sun is composed of Hydrogen. We also know the sun's mass and temperature are at the right levels to allow hydrogen fusion.

Further, it could be a particle process instead or nuclear one.

Explain

I don't know where your assertions about the lack of heavier elements come from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#Composition

Then you added something about higher temperatures needed for fission to take place which is also demonstrably false.

I never said this. I said the temperatures needed for triple-alpha process do not exist in the Sun. Where did I mention fission required certain temperatures?

Quote

where did all the helium come from

From nuclear processes. Somewhere. Where does the helium in a balloon come from? Do you propose a secret fusion technology for party balloons?

This nuclear process would be hydrogen fusion, then. The helium in my balloon comes from alpha particles as a result of radioactive decay.

There are multiple estimates as to how much uranium is in the sun, though. If we use one scale, there is 10^-12 times uranium as hydrogen, or .000000000001 times. This site lists the Sun being composed of 1x10^-7% uranium.

Essentially, while uranium may become helium through fission, there is simply too little. There is a far greater source of helium through hydrogen fusion.

nickrulercreator, this is Q&A, if you have a question feel free to ask. If you want to debate the topic start a thread in FE General or FE Debate.

nickrulercreator, this is Q&A, if you have a question feel free to ask. If you want to debate the topic start a thread in FE General or FE Debate.

Got it, sorry.