Poll

What is the best solution to the death of the Boy Scouts as we know it?

Just accept it, change the name to Soy Scouts and carry on.
The real boys should start their own group  and use the now available name Boy Scouts.
The real boys should start an even harder core group and call themselves The Spartans
Just accept it and change the name to The Adventuring Do-Gooders
Just accept it and change the name to The Super Adventure Club
Goy Scouts
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I haven't a clue what you're talking about
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RIP Boy Scouts

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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2018, 01:57:04 PM »
If you ask me, at that age (pre puberty) between girls and boys there is basically no difference.
Differences between genders are at that point mostly (if not completely) due to society.
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Master_Evar

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2018, 12:49:44 AM »
Quote from: User324 on May 15, 2018, 01:57:04 PM
If you ask me, at that age (pre puberty) between girls and boys there is basically no difference.
Differences between genders are at that point mostly (if not completely) due to society.

Yeah. Hormones are the source of most behavioural and a few physical differences between humans, such as testosterone and estrogen which pre-pubescent kids don't produce a lot of.

And if one is really concerned about maximising the potential of the kids, it would be a lot better to just put the kids in groups that fit their learning style and needs, than putting them in a group that says it's most likely this particular style of teaching and scouting will facilitate their learning and needs.
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Wolvaccine

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2018, 01:21:45 AM »
I have no problem having 2 separate things. The boy scouts can do the camping/survival/outdoor activity things while the girl scouts can learn how to cook/clean and wash. Different strokes for different folks! Will ensure each person is set up with the appropriate skills needed for their future life

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JimmyTheCrab

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2018, 02:09:00 AM »
Quote from: Shifter on May 16, 2018, 01:21:45 AM
I have no problem having 2 separate things. The boy scouts can do the camping/survival/outdoor activity things while the girl scouts can learn how to cook/clean and wash. Different strokes for different folks! Will ensure each person is set up with the appropriate skills needed for their future life
Too obvious.
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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2018, 02:14:30 AM »
Yep. Pathetic even for his standards.
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Wolvaccine

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2018, 05:41:22 AM »
I'm not kidding.
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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2018, 07:33:34 AM »
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Wolvaccine

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2018, 02:19:51 PM »
Quote from: User324 on May 16, 2018, 07:33:34 AM
Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on May 16, 2018, 02:09:00 AM
Too obvious.

Suicides are at an all time high thanks to the cumulative stress of choice in the world. When women stayed at home and there were only 2 genders, life was simple and people had realistic expectations on themselves. Now you can be any of 50 genders and even 'men' can give birth. Fuck that. If you put the burden of too many choices on kids and allow them to choose, you put too much stress and have them lost in an abyss. You dont just have 9-5 simple jobs anymore. These days you must be available 24/7 with your phone and email. You dont have 1 secure full time job but many smaller part time and casual jobs. Nothing is simple. Everyone wants to stand out so everyone wants to be 'different', so the problem compounds on itself and by the time my kid is old enough to write here, there will be 500 genders and if he isn't fucking a man up the arse, society will villainize him

So yes. The world would probably be better if women were relegated to 'home making' duties and the men went out to work

Thanks to women in the workforce, the market has gone "Oh now families have 2 full time incomes so lets put the prices of houses up accordingly"

So women in the workforce hasn't actually benefited society. Their life time earnings is paying off a mortgage that used to be able to be handled by just the man working. And now the kids growing up don't have the benefit of proper and full time parental supervision at home, so they grow up into spoilt rat bags

So yes. Put women back in the kitchen. I don't care how 1950's or regressive that sounds. There would be a plethora of benefits for society and children if you did

Do suicides bother you User324? Wouldn't it be better if kids didn't suicide?
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Master_Evar

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2018, 03:40:15 PM »
Back in the day people didn't really talk as much about suicide as they do today, so you probably just didn't hear about it. I don't know if you have a source for the claim that they are at an all-time high, but here I found some evidence for the contrary:
https://ourworldindata.org/suicide
Suicide rates are either stable or declining. Since there's more people in the world now there are obviously more individual cases, and you'll hear a lot more individual cases.

And I've never heard of suicide from too much choice. However, I have heard of suicide from pressure put on people. Choice doesn't put pressure on people, other people expecting you to know exactly what you are going to do with your life does put pressure on people. You could argue that it wouldn't be hard to know what to do with your life if you didn't have choice, but then you'd be under pressure to follow this path in life that others have made for you, whether you like it or not. If you're not good at doing what you are expected, don't like doing it, or just don't feel comfortable or meaningful doing it, you'll either force yourself to keep doing it, putting yourself under pressure, or you'll try to make your own choice that you could be criticised for which might put social pressure on you. Your way of thinking only puts more pressure on people, which is what leads to suicide. Of course pressure can be necessary to get people to do something with their lives other than just indulge in their own pleasures, but then it should only be what is necessary.

You can always turn off your phone and computer. Feeling like you have to be online 24/7 is not the result of too much choice, but social pressure from others who want to communicate with you and that won't have it that you're going offline for a few hours.

House prices don't increase because "muh both parents are working". House prices increases because, unlike pretty much every other industry that produces things, they have not become substantially easier and cheaper to build over the years. New and better tools have been developed, but you still need quite a lot of man-hours and very few parts of the construction work can be streamlined and automated. The construction industry is simply not keeping up with the economy. Living space is also constantly increasing, which obviously entails an increase in cost.
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Wolvaccine

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2018, 04:21:51 PM »
Quote from: Master_Evar on May 16, 2018, 03:40:15 PM
Back in the day people didn't really talk as much about suicide as they do today, so you probably just didn't hear about it. I don't know if you have a source for the claim that they are at an all-time high, but here I found some evidence for the contrary:
https://ourworldindata.org/suicide
Suicide rates are either stable or declining. Since there's more people in the world now there are obviously more individual cases, and you'll hear a lot more individual cases.

And I've never heard of suicide from too much choice. However, I have heard of suicide from pressure put on people. Choice doesn't put pressure on people, other people expecting you to know exactly what you are going to do with your life does put pressure on people. You could argue that it wouldn't be hard to know what to do with your life if you didn't have choice, but then you'd be under pressure to follow this path in life that others have made for you, whether you like it or not. If you're not good at doing what you are expected, don't like doing it, or just don't feel comfortable or meaningful doing it, you'll either force yourself to keep doing it, putting yourself under pressure, or you'll try to make your own choice that you could be criticised for which might put social pressure on you. Your way of thinking only puts more pressure on people, which is what leads to suicide. Of course pressure can be necessary to get people to do something with their lives other than just indulge in their own pleasures, but then it should only be what is necessary.

You can always turn off your phone and computer. Feeling like you have to be online 24/7 is not the result of too much choice, but social pressure from others who want to communicate with you and that won't have it that you're going offline for a few hours.

House prices don't increase because "muh both parents are working". House prices increases because, unlike pretty much every other industry that produces things, they have not become substantially easier and cheaper to build over the years. New and better tools have been developed, but you still need quite a lot of man-hours and very few parts of the construction work can be streamlined and automated. The construction industry is simply not keeping up with the economy. Living space is also constantly increasing, which obviously entails an increase in cost.

Too much choice can lead to indeciviness which leads you nowhere and lost. If you go to a supermarket and there are 10,000 product lines, it's actually harder to find and get something, then if there were only 100. You want a loaf of bread - do you need to be presented with 50 different sorts to choose from?

Turning off your phone or computer in a world which increasingly demands it is easier said than done. There is also that 'FOMO' phenomenon that is a problem with millennials and Swedes. Damned if you turn it off and damned if you turn it on

It's not the construction cost of a house that is the issue but the tiny block of land the government decides is worth $250,000 today when 30 years ago it may have only been worth $2500. Part of this is based on an 'average household income'. Keeping things just slightly unafforadable and a challenge to get at the best of times (to keep the workforce hard at work). Too bad if your single. A single income used to be good to have a house and look after the family. Now most people struggle on 2 full time incomes and if you have kids, another part time job just to pay for the cost of childcare.

If women grew up and were conditioned to believe - 'you wear pretty dresses and you cook and clean for your husband', you would not have half the problems we have now. Now all we hear is bitching their aren't enough women in politics or CEO positions, mythical gender pay gaps etc etc. Easy fix, just tell them all to go home.
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Master_Evar

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2018, 04:58:26 PM »
Quote from: Shifter on May 16, 2018, 04:21:51 PM
Too much choice can lead to indeciviness which leads you nowhere and lost. If you go to a supermarket and there are 10,000 product lines, it's actually harder to find and get something, then if there were only 100. You want a loaf of bread - do you need to be presented with 50 different sorts to choose from?

Turning off your phone or computer in a world which increasingly demands it is easier said than done. There is also that 'FOMO' phenomenon that is a problem with millennials and Swedes. Damned if you turn it off and damned if you turn it on
Indecisiveness is just that though - indecisiveness. It probably won't pressure you into suicide. Now, if someone else expects you to pick the best products out of all 10,000 product lines, then that could lead to anxiety and/or stress, which could actually lead to suicide.

And FOMO arises from the social expectations that you HAVE TO HAVE HEARD THIS STORY or HOW DID YOU MISS THAT? ARE YOU LIVING UNDER A ROCK?

Quote from: Shifter on May 16, 2018, 04:21:51 PM
It's not the construction cost of a house that is the issue but the tiny block of land the government decides is worth $250,000 today when 30 years ago it may have only been worth $2500. Part of this is based on an 'average household income'. Keeping things just slightly unafforadable and a challenge to get at the best of times (to keep the workforce hard at work). Too bad if your single. A single income used to be good to have a house and look after the family. Now most people struggle on 2 full time incomes and if you have kids, another part time job just to pay for the cost of childcare.
Rising cost of land is also a problem, for sure, but not at all because of the reason you gave. You could probably find really cheap blocks of land if you go far away urban areas. Land prices are subject to supply and demand, just like any other product. Urban areas have limited land and there's a ridiculously high demand for that land. So, the prices are really high. Same goes for every smaller town that happens to have good access to public transport or just good roads leading into nearby cities. Also it's probably a lot cheaper to buy land that does not come with a house. Because people aren't looking for land, they are looking for homes. And if you settled for the same living space that people settled for 30 years ago it should be affordable.

Quote from: Shifter on May 16, 2018, 04:21:51 PM
If women grew up and were conditioned to believe - 'you wear pretty dresses and you cook and clean for your husband', you would not have half the problems we have now. Now all we hear is bitching their aren't enough women in politics or CEO positions, mythical gender pay gaps etc etc. Easy fix, just tell them all to go home.
If this happened then plenty of women would probably become chronically depressed. Doing house chores is just not a satisfying way of spending the days for a lot of people. It would also mean that the workforce would shrink drastically, meaning that all men would have to work quite a bit harder to keep the same production of wares and services as before, so that the economy doesn't grind to a halt. Which would put extra pressure and stress on all men. How exactly is that better for society?
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Bom Tishop

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2018, 08:32:47 PM »
First of all I voted first therefore I AM SPARTACUS.....

As for the issues shifter is speaking of...there is way way too much truth in there.

The government screwing with property​values and other values key to a person's/couples well being to make it where they need a snorkel just to breath is evil at best.

As for the unhappiness of women in general and the sharp decline that has taken place recently...what do you expect when you are telling someone to not be who they are?? Not only that, call them uneducated, behind the times, lazy, a failure etc etc when they want to be what their heart tells them?

Just another hypocrisy of the Looney liberals....there needs to be 96 accepted  made up genders and we need to learn all our pronouns.... however, when a female wants to act as nature and her heart has told her she is a piece of shit.

So stupid....

Women can do as they please and should be supported either way....if things went to that again, then you will see happiness increase and people would be surprised how many women would go back to the "old school" family set up.
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Pezevenk

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2018, 02:27:37 AM »
I'm pretty sure Shifter is just trying to make his trolling seem less obvious. You can't possibly be THAT dumb.
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JimmyTheCrab

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2018, 02:29:56 AM »
Quote from: Babyhighspeed on May 16, 2018, 08:32:47 PM
The government screwing with property​values and other values key to a person's/couples well being to make it where they need a snorkel just to breath is evil at best.

As for the unhappiness of women in general and the sharp decline that has taken place recently...what do you expect when you are telling someone to not be who they are?? Not only that, call them uneducated, behind the times, lazy, a failure etc etc when they want to be what their heart tells them?

Just another hypocrisy of the Looney liberals....there needs to be 96 accepted  made up genders and we need to learn all our pronouns.... however, when a female wants to act as nature and her heart has told her she is a piece of shit.
Rating: barely intelligible.

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people would be surprised how many women would go back to the "old school" family set up.
So what's stopping them?
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JimmyTheCrab

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2018, 02:30:40 AM »
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on May 17, 2018, 02:27:37 AM
I'm pretty sure Shifter is just trying to make his trolling seem less obvious. You can't possibly be THAT dumb.
It's hard to tell if he's dumb, drunk or both.
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Pezevenk

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2018, 02:39:37 AM »
Quote from: Babyhighspeed on May 16, 2018, 08:32:47 PM
Women can do as they please and should be supported either way....if things went to that again, then you will see happiness increase and people would be surprised how many women would go back to the "old school" family set up.
You know, the difference is that it's NOW that women can actually do what they want to do. You just decided that they want to stay in the kitchen, and that you know better than them what they want. But the old setup isn't even viable any more because one person doesn't make enough money to sustain a family any more.
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Master_Evar

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2018, 03:11:37 AM »
What kind of "screwing with propertyvalues and values key to a person's/couple's well being" are you talking about? I don't live in the US, but I doubt that your government has been trying to inflate propertyvalues as that only holds the economy back.

It's naive to believe that the old school family set up is going to be good for everyone, or even the majority. There's no need to demonise it, but it only works if the man wants to work really hard and pursue what makes most money to support the family, and if the woman is fine with cleaning, cooking and possibly taking care of children every day. Alternatively both could work at jobs that have a decent balance between being profitable and satisfying, and they could share household chores.

Of course there are some people who'd rather take care of a household than work in any other industry, and this includes men, but there are also plenty of women who have ambitions and dreams to work in the economy. Those who take care of the households shouldn't be looked down upon as long as the couple is fine with it, but similarly you shouldn't look down on a woman who'd rather work and earn their own money than taking care of a household all day long.

Also, a person has to really be dedicated to taking care of a household and have no other work if they are going to do so. Because every year they're not working their chances of getting employed if they suddenly decide that taking care of a household is no longer a satisfying way of spending your days, or in worst case if they get divorced or somehow ends up single, drops quite a bit. It's good to have a few years of working experience before you decide to dedicate your days to taking care of a household, or you might never be able to get a full time employment again in case you'd need to. It would be good if there was a way for people who have been outside of the labor market for years to reliably get an OK full time employment.
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NAZA

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2018, 05:31:11 AM »
Quote from: Master_Evar on May 17, 2018, 03:11:37 AM
What kind of "screwing with propertyvalues and values key to a person's/couple's well being" are you talking about? I don't live in the US, but I doubt that your government has been trying to inflate propertyvalues as that only holds the economy back.


Not THE government(federal) but local and state governments certainly make new housing more expensive.
A friend of mine just paid over $50,000 in permits, sewer connection fees, etc for a new home construction.   This varies by location of course as these are local fees, but that's more than I paid for my first house 30 years ago!





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Pezevenk

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2018, 05:42:39 AM »
Quote from: NAZA on May 17, 2018, 05:31:11 AM
Quote from: Master_Evar on May 17, 2018, 03:11:37 AM
What kind of "screwing with propertyvalues and values key to a person's/couple's well being" are you talking about? I don't live in the US, but I doubt that your government has been trying to inflate propertyvalues as that only holds the economy back.


Not THE government(federal) but local and state governments certainly make new housing more expensive.
A friend of mine just paid over $50,000 in permits, sewer connection fees, etc for a new home construction.   This varies by location of course as these are local fees, but that's more than I paid for my first house 30 years ago!


I don't know if you're right or wrong, you might be right, I'm just putting that here because I don't really trust that you know what inflation is based on your other posts.
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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2018, 06:54:25 AM »
Quote from: NAZA on May 17, 2018, 05:31:11 AM
Quote from: Master_Evar on May 17, 2018, 03:11:37 AM
What kind of "screwing with propertyvalues and values key to a person's/couple's well being" are you talking about? I don't live in the US, but I doubt that your government has been trying to inflate propertyvalues as that only holds the economy back.


Not THE government(federal) but local and state governments certainly make new housing more expensive.
A friend of mine just paid over $50,000 in permits, sewer connection fees, etc for a new home construction.   This varies by location of course as these are local fees, but that's more than I paid for my first house 30 years ago!
It says here that building permits are typically about 1.2% of building costs.

http://eyeonhousing.org/2015/11/cost-of-constructing-a-single-family-home-in-2015-2/

Not sure how this equates into the gubberment "screwing with property values", so that women won't stay at home and wash dirty underwear for BHS.
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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2018, 08:53:07 AM »
Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on May 17, 2018, 06:54:25 AM
Quote from: NAZA on May 17, 2018, 05:31:11 AM
Quote from: Master_Evar on May 17, 2018, 03:11:37 AM
What kind of "screwing with propertyvalues and values key to a person's/couple's well being" are you talking about? I don't live in the US, but I doubt that your government has been trying to inflate propertyvalues as that only holds the economy back.


Not THE government(federal) but local and state governments certainly make new housing more expensive.
A friend of mine just paid over $50,000 in permits, sewer connection fees, etc for a new home construction.   This varies by location of course as these are local fees, but that's more than I paid for my first house 30 years ago!
It says here that building permits are typically about 1.2% of building costs.

http://eyeonhousing.org/2015/11/cost-of-constructing-a-single-family-home-in-2015-2/

Not sure how this equates into the gubberment "screwing with property values", so that women won't stay at home and wash dirty underwear for BHS.

Lol.

In the last 30 years I've seen it anywhere from 0 to 10%.  Had my friend built in a different county he would have had needed no permit. 

My first house cost me about $45,000 to build and the permit was a set fee of $150. 
Today that fee would be thousands while the cost to build it would be around $150,000.
Fees are big business these days.  New roofs, fences, driveways all have fees and many cities use satellite images to enforce them  The fines are very high.

Most high end housing in my area is being built out of the city limits in part because of fees and also land prices and taxes.
My house has been reassessed by the county 3 times in the last 20 years.  Each time means more taxes AND higher prices.

Business have it worse.
A recent firsthand example:
A customer of mine was required by new municipal codes to upgrade a sprinkler system.
This required an upgrade to a larger water line to the municipal system.  The fee alone was $5000.
To add an additional line for future use while pipes were dug up was an additional  $10,000 fee.

And don't get me started on post Katrina FEMA codes!!!

That said the federal government has recently helped by raising mortgage deductions so I've seen a increase in the number of new houses, again mostly away from high taxes and fees of the city


My parents did it on one income.  We had a hard time doing on two.  It's really hard today to get that ideal starter home in the city.
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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2018, 09:04:01 AM »
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on May 17, 2018, 05:42:39 AM
Quote from: NAZA on May 17, 2018, 05:31:11 AM
Quote from: Master_Evar on May 17, 2018, 03:11:37 AM
What kind of "screwing with propertyvalues and values key to a person's/couple's well being" are you talking about? I don't live in the US, but I doubt that your government has been trying to inflate propertyvalues as that only holds the economy back.


Not THE government(federal) but local and state governments certainly make new housing more expensive.
A friend of mine just paid over $50,000 in permits, sewer connection fees, etc for a new home construction.   This varies by location of course as these are local fees, but that's more than I paid for my first house 30 years ago!


I don't know if you're right or wrong, you might be right, I'm just putting that here because I don't really trust that you know what inflation is based on your other posts.
Y Axis of the graph is wrong. It's not showing the purchasing power - it's obviously showing the average american IQ (relative to the european IQ).
It's well observable that it was around the same back in the days, but then steadily dropped, until now reaching nearly 0 (possibly even below) with trump getting elected.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 09:06:10 AM by User324 »
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Crouton

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2018, 09:14:36 AM »
Quote from: NAZA on May 17, 2018, 08:53:07 AM
Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on May 17, 2018, 06:54:25 AM
Quote from: NAZA on May 17, 2018, 05:31:11 AM
Quote from: Master_Evar on May 17, 2018, 03:11:37 AM
What kind of "screwing with propertyvalues and values key to a person's/couple's well being" are you talking about? I don't live in the US, but I doubt that your government has been trying to inflate propertyvalues as that only holds the economy back.


Not THE government(federal) but local and state governments certainly make new housing more expensive.
A friend of mine just paid over $50,000 in permits, sewer connection fees, etc for a new home construction.   This varies by location of course as these are local fees, but that's more than I paid for my first house 30 years ago!
It says here that building permits are typically about 1.2% of building costs.

http://eyeonhousing.org/2015/11/cost-of-constructing-a-single-family-home-in-2015-2/

Not sure how this equates into the gubberment "screwing with property values", so that women won't stay at home and wash dirty underwear for BHS.

Lol.

In the last 30 years I've seen it anywhere from 0 to 10%.  Had my friend built in a different county he would have had needed no permit. 

My first house cost me about $45,000 to build and the permit was a set fee of $150. 
Today that fee would be thousands while the cost to build it would be around $150,000.
Fees are big business these days.  New roofs, fences, driveways all have fees and many cities use satellite images to enforce them  The fines are very high.

Most high end housing in my area is being built out of the city limits in part because of fees and also land prices and taxes.
My house has been reassessed by the county 3 times in the last 20 years.  Each time means more taxes AND higher prices.

Business have it worse.
A recent firsthand example:
A customer of mine was required by new municipal codes to upgrade a sprinkler system.
This required an upgrade to a larger water line to the municipal system.  The fee alone was $5000.
To add an additional line for future use while pipes were dug up was an additional  $10,000 fee.

And don't get me started on post Katrina FEMA codes!!!

That said the federal government has recently helped by raising mortgage deductions so I've seen a increase in the number of new houses, again mostly away from high taxes and fees of the city


My parents did it on one income.  We had a hard time doing on two.  It's really hard today to get that ideal starter home in the city.

The increase in the cost of housing is due largely to several fairly recent policies intended to open up home ownership to the lower middle class.  Fanny Mae, Freddy Mac etc.  Put that together with ridiculously low interest rates and the fact that interest is deductible even with investment properties and you've got a perfect storm for the 2006 housing crisis.

If they wanted to bring down housing prices they'd make interest outside of a primary residence not deductible.  But the rich don't like that so it's here to stay.

I don't know where you're at.  In Utah though I've built several of these additions you're referencing and the fees are either non existent or minuscule.  So your claims of crushing regulations seems dubious.
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NotSoSkeptical

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2018, 09:20:59 AM »
Quote from: crutonius on May 17, 2018, 09:14:36 AM
Quote from: NAZA on May 17, 2018, 08:53:07 AM
Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on May 17, 2018, 06:54:25 AM
Quote from: NAZA on May 17, 2018, 05:31:11 AM
Quote from: Master_Evar on May 17, 2018, 03:11:37 AM
What kind of "screwing with propertyvalues and values key to a person's/couple's well being" are you talking about? I don't live in the US, but I doubt that your government has been trying to inflate propertyvalues as that only holds the economy back.


Not THE government(federal) but local and state governments certainly make new housing more expensive.
A friend of mine just paid over $50,000 in permits, sewer connection fees, etc for a new home construction.   This varies by location of course as these are local fees, but that's more than I paid for my first house 30 years ago!
It says here that building permits are typically about 1.2% of building costs.

http://eyeonhousing.org/2015/11/cost-of-constructing-a-single-family-home-in-2015-2/

Not sure how this equates into the gubberment "screwing with property values", so that women won't stay at home and wash dirty underwear for BHS.

Lol.

In the last 30 years I've seen it anywhere from 0 to 10%.  Had my friend built in a different county he would have had needed no permit. 

My first house cost me about $45,000 to build and the permit was a set fee of $150. 
Today that fee would be thousands while the cost to build it would be around $150,000.
Fees are big business these days.  New roofs, fences, driveways all have fees and many cities use satellite images to enforce them  The fines are very high.

Most high end housing in my area is being built out of the city limits in part because of fees and also land prices and taxes.
My house has been reassessed by the county 3 times in the last 20 years.  Each time means more taxes AND higher prices.

Business have it worse.
A recent firsthand example:
A customer of mine was required by new municipal codes to upgrade a sprinkler system.
This required an upgrade to a larger water line to the municipal system.  The fee alone was $5000.
To add an additional line for future use while pipes were dug up was an additional  $10,000 fee.

And don't get me started on post Katrina FEMA codes!!!

That said the federal government has recently helped by raising mortgage deductions so I've seen a increase in the number of new houses, again mostly away from high taxes and fees of the city


My parents did it on one income.  We had a hard time doing on two.  It's really hard today to get that ideal starter home in the city.

The increase in the cost of housing is due largely to several fairly recent policies intended to open up home ownership to the lower middle class.  Fanny Mae, Freddy Mac etc.  Put that together with ridiculously low interest rates and the fact that interest is deductible even with investment properties and you've got a perfect storm for the 2006 housing crisis.

If they wanted to bring down housing prices they'd make interest outside of a primary residence not deductible.  But the rich don't like that so it's here to stay.

I don't know where you're at.  In Utah though I've built several of these additions you're referencing and the fees are either non existent or minuscule.  So your claims of crushing regulations seems dubious.

Yes, increases in property values skyrocketed once the government got involved.  Same thing occurred with tuition when government backed loans were introduced.
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Pezevenk

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2018, 09:30:01 AM »
Quote from: NAZA on May 17, 2018, 08:53:07 AM
Had my friend built in a different county he would have had needed no permit. 
Which country would that be?
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Crouton

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #55 on: May 17, 2018, 09:31:36 AM »
Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on May 17, 2018, 09:20:59 AM
Quote from: crutonius on May 17, 2018, 09:14:36 AM
Quote from: NAZA on May 17, 2018, 08:53:07 AM
Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on May 17, 2018, 06:54:25 AM
Quote from: NAZA on May 17, 2018, 05:31:11 AM
Quote from: Master_Evar on May 17, 2018, 03:11:37 AM
What kind of "screwing with propertyvalues and values key to a person's/couple's well being" are you talking about? I don't live in the US, but I doubt that your government has been trying to inflate propertyvalues as that only holds the economy back.


Not THE government(federal) but local and state governments certainly make new housing more expensive.
A friend of mine just paid over $50,000 in permits, sewer connection fees, etc for a new home construction.   This varies by location of course as these are local fees, but that's more than I paid for my first house 30 years ago!
It says here that building permits are typically about 1.2% of building costs.

http://eyeonhousing.org/2015/11/cost-of-constructing-a-single-family-home-in-2015-2/

Not sure how this equates into the gubberment "screwing with property values", so that women won't stay at home and wash dirty underwear for BHS.

Lol.

In the last 30 years I've seen it anywhere from 0 to 10%.  Had my friend built in a different county he would have had needed no permit. 

My first house cost me about $45,000 to build and the permit was a set fee of $150. 
Today that fee would be thousands while the cost to build it would be around $150,000.
Fees are big business these days.  New roofs, fences, driveways all have fees and many cities use satellite images to enforce them  The fines are very high.

Most high end housing in my area is being built out of the city limits in part because of fees and also land prices and taxes.
My house has been reassessed by the county 3 times in the last 20 years.  Each time means more taxes AND higher prices.

Business have it worse.
A recent firsthand example:
A customer of mine was required by new municipal codes to upgrade a sprinkler system.
This required an upgrade to a larger water line to the municipal system.  The fee alone was $5000.
To add an additional line for future use while pipes were dug up was an additional  $10,000 fee.

And don't get me started on post Katrina FEMA codes!!!

That said the federal government has recently helped by raising mortgage deductions so I've seen a increase in the number of new houses, again mostly away from high taxes and fees of the city


My parents did it on one income.  We had a hard time doing on two.  It's really hard today to get that ideal starter home in the city.

The increase in the cost of housing is due largely to several fairly recent policies intended to open up home ownership to the lower middle class.  Fanny Mae, Freddy Mac etc.  Put that together with ridiculously low interest rates and the fact that interest is deductible even with investment properties and you've got a perfect storm for the 2006 housing crisis.

If they wanted to bring down housing prices they'd make interest outside of a primary residence not deductible.  But the rich don't like that so it's here to stay.

I don't know where you're at.  In Utah though I've built several of these additions you're referencing and the fees are either non existent or minuscule.  So your claims of crushing regulations seems dubious.

Yes, increases in property values skyrocketed once the government got involved.  Same thing occurred with tuition when government backed loans were introduced.

Sure.  If you want to reduce it down to that.  It's more interesting to discuss if it was worth it or how they could have done it better.

For me, I got my first house through a Fannie Mae program.  If I had to go the route of a tradition mortgage I would have had to have wasted years throwing away money on rent.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #56 on: May 17, 2018, 09:32:18 AM »
County, he's talking about the difference between counties.

You gotta have a permit for all kinds of shit in Florida because we have no state income taxes and they have to get the money from somewhere.
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Crouton

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #57 on: May 17, 2018, 09:35:18 AM »
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on May 17, 2018, 09:30:01 AM
Quote from: NAZA on May 17, 2018, 08:53:07 AM
Had my friend built in a different county he would have had needed no permit. 
Which country would that be?

Somalia of course!  A paradise for those who don't want to be burdened with stifling regulations and high taxes.  All of the billionaires funding Fox News should move there today!
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Bullwinkle

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #58 on: May 17, 2018, 10:54:20 AM »
I think the Boy Scouts should stop meddling with the housing market.
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Crouton

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Re: RIP Boy Scouts
« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2018, 10:58:35 AM »
But then they couldn't get their investment property merit badge.
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