What about things that disappear over the horizon?

I know this may have been said before, but I find the way in which things go out of view as they become far away to be at odds with a flat earth. The most notable objects which display this behavior are the sun and the moon, obviously, but it can also be observed in boats as they go out to sea.

First off, I have no doubt in my mind that the earth is round, but here is where I agree with the flat earthers, They say that they don't dissapear, that it's a matter of perspective. I strongly agree with this, because in my opinion the earth is too large to appear round to such relative short distances. Also, if ships truly vanish in such a short distance, IMO the opposite direction must appear to be on higher ground.

First off, I have no doubt in my mind that the earth is round, but here is where I agree with the flat earthers, They say that they don't dissapear, that it's a matter of perspective. I strongly agree with this, because in my opinion the earth is too large to appear round to such relative short distances. Also, if ships truly vanish in such a short distance, IMO the opposite direction must appear to be on higher ground.

As someone who's been on open water more time than I can remember and for longer than care to admit, I can assure you that flatters have it WRONG.
Take a look at this image...



Perspective does not make the much larger hull shrink to an invisible size while the much smaller masts remain visible.  And yes it does work both ways.  Someone on deck can't see you but someone in a crows nests could.

And the curve is visible over such "short" distances.

First off, I have no doubt in my mind that the earth is round, but here is where I agree with the flat earthers, They say that they don't dissapear, that it's a matter of perspective. I strongly agree with this, because in my opinion the earth is too large to appear round to such relative short distances. Also, if ships truly vanish in such a short distance, IMO the opposite direction must appear to be on higher ground.

There are 3 ways in which a ship can disappear, one is if it is small ship. In this case it gets far enough away that perspective makes it too small to resolve. But this allows you to bring it back into view with a telescope or a lens. This also has the small features disappear first.
This is not what was being discussed.
The second way you can have in dense fog. This is where the object, while still being resolvable, blurs into the fog, so it just fades out. You can't do anything to bring it back into view except get closer.
This is now what was being discussed.

The third way only works on a round Earth. You have the object move far enough away that it is more distant than the horizon (a phenomenon which does not exist on a flat surface, as the horizon would only ever be the edge of that surface or the vanishing point which is infinitely far away).
In this case the curvature of Earth now gets in the way and the object disappears from the bottom up, with more disappearing the further away the object is.
But if you get higher, the horizon moves further away, allowing you to bring the object back into view.

This is what we are discussing. Perspective has nothing to do with it as you cannot use any lenses or telescopes or the like to bring the object back into view, but moving higher means it can be brought back into view. It disappears while being clearly resolvable.

The Flat Earthers are wrong on this, just like so many points.

It isn't Earth appearing round. It is the curvature of Earth getting in the way. If your eyes where at sea level, as soon as an object moved away from you, Earth would get in the way.
The horizon is a result of this curvature. The distance to the horizon is based upon this curvature.
The horizon isn't a few m away. It is typically several km away.
While the curvature over that distance is quite insignificant in terms of the portion of Earth, it is quite significant relative to the size of you and the boat.

Mr. Crowely, what went wrong in your head?

Mr. Crowely, what went wrong in your head?

And how do you explain the sun and moon disappearing behind the horizon?
You'll probably come up with something meaningless like being unable to see an infinite through the atmoplane. 

If the obsevation is done at Lake, that's valid.

At sea...it's invalid. Coz there are waves of probably tens feet tall - depending on the locations.

The waves absolutely BLOCK the sight to the object being observed.

If the obsevation is done at Lake, that's valid.

At sea...it's invalid. Coz there are waves of probably tens feet tall - depending on the locations.

The waves absolutely BLOCK the sight to the object being observed.

Look at that picture. Either those waves were tiny or the picture was taken from a high location; maybe both.

Quote from: jroa on January 19, 2018, 12:50:12 AM

Mr. Crowely, what went wrong in your head?

And how do you explain the sun and moon disappearing behind the horizon?
You'll probably come up with something meaningless like being unable to see an infinite through the atmoplane. 

You are more dense than ussuall, are you not?

If the obsevation is done at Lake, that's valid.

At sea...it's invalid. Coz there are waves of probably tens feet tall - depending on the locations.

The waves absolutely BLOCK the sight to the object being observed.

Waves CAN BLOCK an object but not those waves.  The conditions in the image are what is called a "chop" be it a mild, medium, or heavy chop, NOT waves "tens of feet" but just a few feet.
Great for sailing, but sucks for surfing as there are no swells or breakers.
These conditions happen in lakes, bays, and offshore.  Most common in shallower waters but changing tides cause it offshore in deep water.  It really sucks when in smaller boats because  the waves beat you to death.  Larger waves further apart is much more comfortable ride.

Here is the video that the image comes from.



No waves tens of feet, just a light to medium chop.

Another thing to consder is the distance to the horizon.
If you were in a rowboat (or a lifeboat, as in the case of the Titanic survivors) the horizon would only appear to be about 2  or 3  miles from you.
If you were in the crow's  nest on a ship (as in case of Titanic or Carpathia) the horizon would appear to be about 10 or 12 miles from you.
That would affect how long it would take for the ship to come over from or pass over beyond  the horizon.
 

If the obsevation is done at Lake, that's valid.

At sea...it's invalid. Coz there are waves of probably tens feet tall - depending on the locations.

The waves absolutely BLOCK the sight to the object being observed.

No.
At sea, the waves are typically quite small, with the waves getting largest near the shore.
The waves are not what is blocking the sight to the object.
The curvature of Earth is.

Quote from: Danang on January 19, 2018, 05:39:59 AM

If the obsevation is done at Lake, that's valid.

At sea...it's invalid. Coz there are waves of probably tens feet tall - depending on the locations.

The waves absolutely BLOCK the sight to the object being observed.

Waves CAN BLOCK an object but not those waves.  The conditions in the image are what is called a "chop" be it a mild, medium, or heavy chop, NOT waves "tens of feet" but just a few feet.
Great for sailing, but sucks for surfing as there are no swells or breakers.
These conditions happen in lakes, bays, and offshore.  Most common in shallower waters but changing tides cause it offshore in deep water.  It really sucks when in smaller boats because  the waves beat you to death.  Larger waves further apart is much more comfortable ride.

Here is the video that the image comes from.



No waves tens of feet, just a light to medium chop.

Chop in caused by wind.
There are no waves in open ocean. There is swell.
There can be chop on swells.
A wave is when a swell hits shallow water, slows down, and tips over.

Not arguing with you, just clarifying some terms.


And glass flat is best for all boating.   

Quote from: rabinoz on January 19, 2018, 01:38:22 AM

Quote from: jroa on January 19, 2018, 12:50:12 AM

Mr. Crowely, what went wrong in your head?

And how do you explain the sun and moon disappearing behind the horizon?
You'll probably come up with something meaningless like being unable to see an infinite through the atmoplane. 

You are more dense than ussuall, are you not?

Yes, I realise that you have no reasonable explanation for sunrises and sunsets.
That was the death-knell of the old Chinese Taoists cosmology with an earthly plane and a celestial plane above,  like present neo-Flatularists believe.

But slow down and you mightn't s-st-tu-ut-te-er-r more than us-sual-l! Yup, blame that  danged spell checker again!

Quote from: Danang on January 19, 2018, 05:39:59 AM

If the obsevation is done at Lake, that's valid.

At sea...it's invalid. Coz there are waves of probably tens feet tall - depending on the locations.

The waves absolutely BLOCK the sight to the object being observed.

Waves CAN BLOCK an object but not those waves.  The conditions in the image are what is called a "chop" be it a mild, medium, or heavy chop, NOT waves "tens of feet" but just a few feet.
Great for sailing, but sucks for surfing as there are no swells or breakers.
These conditions happen in lakes, bays, and offshore.  Most common in shallower waters but changing tides cause it offshore in deep water.  It really sucks when in smaller boats because  the waves beat you to death.  Larger waves further apart is much more comfortable ride.

Here is the video that the image comes from.



No waves tens of feet, just a light to medium chop.

Hard to figure out how high the wave over there is. Sometimes the footages confirms RE, sometimes confirms FE. All are relative.
So as I said before: Lake is the best place to prove non curvature earth.

Quote from: Danang on January 19, 2018, 05:39:59 AM

If the obsevation is done at Lake, that's valid.

At sea...it's invalid. Coz there are waves of probably tens feet tall - depending on the locations.

The waves absolutely BLOCK the sight to the object being observed.

Look at that picture. Either those waves were tiny or the picture was taken from a high location; maybe both.

To avoid the word "maybe" from both RE & FE, observation at a Lake can convince everyone about the reality of a non curvature earth.

Another important thing to question:

WHY DOES THE OBJECT STAND VERTICALLY, NOT TILT? 

    

Jack won't be able to answer ~

Quote from: EvolvedMantisShrimp on January 19, 2018, 05:48:08 AM

Look at that picture. Either those waves were tiny or the picture was taken from a high location; maybe both.

To avoid the word "maybe" from both RE & FE, observation at a Lake can convince everyone about the reality of a non curvature earth.

Not true. Both "maybe's" in the post imply that the curvature of the earth is easily visible.

Look at the video again.

Here is the video that the image comes from.



No waves tens of feet, just a light to medium chop.

There are no big waves in that video.

Another important silly thing to question:

WHY DOES THE OBJECT STAND VERTICALLY, NOT TILT? 

The "object stands vertical" because it is almost vertical.

I don't know how far away that boat is, but certainly not more than 20 km away.
At 20 km the ship would "tilt back" by less than 0.2°. You could not see that or even measure it.

Why do flat earthers keep coming up with silly arguments like "but it should tilt back"?
Even a large building 50 km away only "tilts back" less than 0.5°! You wouldn't notice that even close up.

So I'm sure that JackBlack would have a ready answer and I'm sure it wouldn't be pleasant for you!

Hard to figure out how high the wave over there is.

No it isn't. It is quite easy to tell there are no significant waves.
If there was, the boat would move up and down significantly; you would have it appear completely (at least above the water line for the boat), and then drop below, with most hidden.
Instead the boat stays quite steady.

Sometimes the footages confirms RE, sometimes confirms FE. All are relative.

BS. I am yet to see a single piece of footage which confirms FE. The closest it ever gets is being unable to tell the difference between them.

It is only relative to how honest you are.

To avoid the word "maybe" from both RE & FE, observation at a Lake can convince everyone about the reality of a non curvature earth.

You mean the reality of a curved Earth, like the numerous pictures across calm lakes showing a large portion of the buildings missing?

Another important thing to question:

WHY DOES THE OBJECT STAND VERTICALLY, NOT TILT? 

No, another pathetic display of your ignorance.
The tilt is virtually nothing.
Remember that Earth's circumference is 40 000 km.

So even if an object is 100 km away, that is still only 0.0025 of the circumference, that corresponds to an angle of 0.9 degrees.
You aren't going to be able to tell if an object is tilting away ever so slightly.

And remember, typically objects are much closer than 100 km.

I know this may have been said before, but I find the way in which things go out of view as they become far away to be at odds with a flat earth. The most notable objects which display this behavior are the sun and the moon, obviously, but it can also be observed in boats as they go out to sea.

I like your avatar.

Quote from: EvolvedMantisShrimp on January 19, 2018, 05:48:08 AM

Quote from: Danang on January 19, 2018, 05:39:59 AM

If the obsevation is done at Lake, that's valid.

At sea...it's invalid. Coz there are waves of probably tens feet tall - depending on the locations.

The waves absolutely BLOCK the sight to the object being observed.

Look at that picture. Either those waves were tiny or the picture was taken from a high location; maybe both.

To avoid the word "maybe" from both RE & FE, observation at a Lake can convince everyone about the reality of a non curvature earth.

Observation on an Ocean can certainly convince everyone about the reality of the curvature of the earth.

Another important thing to question:

WHY DOES THE OBJECT STAND VERTICALLY, NOT TILT? 

    

They do tilt.
With eyes at 5.5 ft above water your horizon is 3 miles away.
At distance of 3 miles (around 2.5 nautical miles), objects tilt about 2.5 arcminutes.
To see them tilt for one degree, they have to be 60 nautical miles away (69 statute miles).