Watch as a FEer attempts to debunk a round earth...laughable to say the least

Quote from: 54N on December 07, 2017, 08:00:35 PM

Quote from: John Davis on December 07, 2017, 05:17:07 PM

GPS does not require a globe. Many of your other 'proofs' are just nouns.
How about you start with one, so we can discuss it.

Bold type above added by me....    I see this often in flat earth replies,  as  a distraction tactic.  Attacking or at least diffusing a coherent post by insisting it's broken down to its components.    Sneaky!

Its very difficult to have a conversation over a laundry list of topics; really for anything. By choosing a particular point to start, its possible to move through them one by one.

Quote from: 54N on December 07, 2017, 08:00:35 PM

Quote from: John Davis on December 07, 2017, 05:17:07 PM

GPS does not require a globe. Many of your other 'proofs' are just nouns.
How about you start with one, so we can discuss it.

Bold type above added by me....    I see this often in flat earth replies,  as  a distraction tactic.  Attacking or at least diffusing a coherent post by insisting it's broken down to its components.    Sneaky!

Its very difficult to have a conversation over a laundry list of topics; really for anything. By choosing a particular point to start, its possible to move through them one by one.

Maybe I should include distraction among the D's that flat earthers so commonly use.  Deflection (which I guess could be distraction), denial and delusion.

Using a persons YouTube to prove they are an idiot isn’t exactly a challenge. And why do you never see a FE believer using a telescope? The first guy in the video has a high quality telescope but the second guy just has a camera with a telephoto lens. Which do you think will capture a better image? What is it with this irrational fear of telescopes in FET?

Actually GPS does not require satellites, just accurate clocks. Nouns are not proofs, they are nouns.

• accurate clocks,
• sufficient GPS transmitters so that each location on earth can receive from at least 4, I can usually receive from about 20,
• the location of each transmitter known at any time to within a fraction of a metre.

Its not a lie. Satellites and ISS are completely consistent with my work. Of course, much of round earth theory wants us to believe instead that a magical force defies most of Newtons Laws - we instead realize our naive view of space.

Its very difficult to have a conversation over a laundry list of topics; really for anything. By choosing a particular point to start, its possible to move through them one by one.

The fact is I'm embarrassed with the riches of evidence that the Earth is not a Planet. This list is intended as an ongoing account of reasons and evidences I've read, heard, or otherwise have been related to me for belief in the Flat Earth.

THE MYTHICAL CURVE

• Find the curve! You can't. Every experience we have says it's flat - from the beach to Mount Everest to a plane.
• Lack of Curvature in Planes
• Curvature has not been seen at heights of 38,000 ft+
• The only evidence showing curvature is from Big Science.
• Weather balloons routinely show a  flat earth unless distorted by the lens - often we'll see this happen as it appears concave/convex/ and flat alternating.  There is no law of optics that would allow a body to appear flat if it was indeed round.
• You can see Rotspitze, Collalto, GroBglockner, Rote Spitze, Sass De Putia and Sass Rigais from the same spot with no curvature. Also Rauchkofel.
• Shots of Blue Origin from space and from earth show that curvature is seen at ground level the same as from low earth orbit. This proves curvature seen from space is determined by how it was filmed.
• We are too small to see curvature yet boats can be seen to dip below a hill of water?!

WATER IS LEVEL

• Water has been determined experimentally to be level. If the earth was round, and spun, water would not be level.
• The Bedford Level Experiment (Rowbotham, Shenton, Blount, et al)
• No distortion in reflections in ocean curvature.
• Lake Quinsigamond is level. "The writer, with a first-class mechanic and a well-known up-to-date photographer, made a trip to Lake Quinsigamond on the 2nd day of June, 1908, and tried the same experiment in practically the same way, and took a photograph of the scene, which proved beyond any doubt in the minds of those present, that the water in that lake was level on the surface, and so acknowledged by the photographer who still believes the Earth is a Globe."  Charles William Morse (author of Unpopular Truth...)

ARCHITECTURE AND RAILROADS

• No consideration is made in architecture of large constructions for curvature of earth.
• No consideration is made in the construction of the Suez Canal - it forms a straight and level surface of water (Carpenter)
• Danyang-Kunshan Grand Bridge, China. 102.4 Mile long bridge does not compensate properly for the curvature of the earth
• The walls of tall buildings can be found to be parallel.
• Lake Pontchartrain Causeway, Metairie, LA - 23.87 miles long with 380 Feet of missing curvature.
• The locks at Gatun lake would be impossible on a globe.
• Curvature not allowed for in construction of railways. The London and North Western Railway between London and Liverpool  forms a line of 180 miles. The highest point, midway, as at Birmingham station, which is 240 feet above the leve of the sea at london and Liverpool. On a globe the chord of the arc between London and Liverpool would be at Birmingham 5,400  feet above sealevel at london and Liverpool added to which the actual height of the station between of 240 feet and we have 5,640 ft. Not one inch was allowed for. (Terra Firma 126)
• . The Great Canal of China, 700 miles in length, was made without regard to any allowance for curvature as the Chinese rightfully believed the Earth to be flat and stationary.  (Carpenter)
• Likewise for the North Sea Canal.(TF 134)
• Likewise for the Manchester Ship Canal. (TF 134)

VIEWING IMPOSSIBLE DISTANCES

• We can see further than expected many places on earth. I get several messages a month from folks in distant areas showing me photographs of locations far beyond the curvature. I myself grew up on Lake Ontario and could see the CN tower far further away than I should have as well as the Toronto Skyline.
• Lighthouses can be seen further than one would expect. Cape Hatteras is seen at 40 miles, which should be 900 feet above the sea level to be visible. This is not the case (Carpenter)
• Balcony of the alps you can see for  190 miles - no curvature.
• The Erego Light in Norway is 154 feet above water and visible from 28 miles - it should be 230 feet below the horizon.
• You can restore the sunken hull of a ship using a telescope. Since telescopes don't peer through a hill of water, the earth must be flat. (Carpenter) This has been replicated by former forum user Tom Bishop.
• At Rock City you can pay to "See Seven States" an impossibility on a round earth.
• August 1890 C manoeuvre Fleet signalled with Search Light to colliers 70 miles away; "According to Astronomers these vessels should have been 3,200 feet below the horizon, allowing for a height of 40 feet on the signalling vessel, and 26 on the colliers!!!" Pearsons Weekly related through Terra Firma
• Daily Mail of 10th Nov 1899 relates Search-light at Kimberley visible at a distance of 115 miles. (Terra Firma)

ROTATION AND MOVEMENT

• Everything we know and feel says it doesn't spin.
• We'd feel the rotational acceleration.
• Air does not feel this acceleration. Winds aren't rushing by us in one direction as gravity would dictate. (Ptolemy)
• So would projectiles - we've talked to experts and they say the don't account for that. Snipers and Ballistics experts we have interviewed do not account for coriolis effects (Mark Sargent)
• No difference in the distance bullets travel against or with the supposed rotation (Carpenter)
• Train tracks degrade eveny on both sides - if the earth rotated they would be more worn on one side.  Railroads have even wear in spite of Coriolis effects.
• A gun shot upwards, rather than with or against the curvature, falls near the gun - not a ridiculous distance away due to the movement of the planet. (Carpenter)
• Foucault Pendulums must be controlled magnetically to achieve real results as they are in most museums
• As often as not the Foucault pendulum travels the incorrect direction!
• Long range ballistics don't take into account the shape of the earth or its rotation
• If earth were rotating at 1,000 MPH while revolving at 66,600 MPH around the sun as the sun is traveling at 450,00 MPH gyroscopes would be going nuts.
• Rotation would be noticed in rabbit eye photographs like those studied by Ter Braak.
• Rotation would be noticed when moving latitudes, as per the Mulder Law.
• A helicopter cannot hover in still motion and expect the earth to rotate below him. S. Shenton, Henriet
• "They say the earth is round, both land and water, and that they are always moving around the sun. But if you ask them how the water keeps in its bed while the earth is turning, they will tell you to take a pail of water and swing it fast and see, for the water will not come out until the pail is slowed down.Who has seen the earth turn around in the way that a person turns a pail? No one. And as long as no one has ever seen or felt the earth turn, you need not believe it so."  Enlightenment of the World
• Tycho Brahe argued against the rotating earth as if the earth revolved around the sun, the relative position of the stars would change a lot - they measured at intervals of six months and found that they were in exactly the same position as they had been. (Winship)
• "If the Earth did move at a tremendous speed, how could we keep a grip on it with our feet? ... should find it slipping rapidly under our footsteps. ... Then, which way is it turning? If we walked in the direction of its tremendous speed, it would push us on terribly rapidly." Missen in The Sun Goes Round the Earth
• Airplanes would stand still when flying at the rate of spin of the Earth in the same direction of spin. Henriet, Heaven and Earth

LUNAR

• How are the moon phases are lit in seemingly impossible ways when both the sun and moon are in sky?
• Daytime lunar eclipses as noted by Kepler.  Over 50 Lunar Eclipses have been reported while the Sun is in the sky. How can a lunar eclipse happen when the three bodies are not in a straight line? We are given the answer that its because of refraction. Charles Fort would call this attempted positivism and I happen to agree. The necessity to conform all damned facts to orthodoxy is strong within the indoctrinated. Luckily Samuel Rowbotham gives us a simple experiment to debunk this in ENaG.
• The lunar eclipse is red. If this was caused by refraction and rayleigh scattering, we'd see a red tint to the everything during the lunar eclipse. Instead, only the moon is red.
• The moon is semi-transparent. Many reports historically and in moderns times have been given where one can see stars through the moon.
• The moon's light is of a different nature than the sun - it has its own set of dangerous properties.
• "We have seen that during a Lunar Eclipse the Moon's self-luminous surface is covered by a semi-transparent 'something'; and this 'something' is a definite mass, because it has a distinct and circular outline, as seen during its first and last contact with the Moon. As a Solar Eclipse occurs from the Moon passing before the Sun, so, from the evidence above collected, it is evidence that a Lunar Eclipse arises from a similar cause. A body, semi-transparent and well defined, passing before the Moon; or between the Moon's surface and the observe on the surface of the Earth. " Zetetic Astronomy

TRAVEL DISTANCES AND GEOGRAPHY

• Navigation at sea is done through "Plane Sailing"
• The surveyor's plans for the first Atlantic Telegraph cable show that in 1665 miles - from Valentia Ireland to St. John's Newfoundland - the surface of the Atlantic ocean is a level surface. (Carpenter)
• The Nile flows 1000 miles with a drop of only 1 foot , Terra Firma
• Lake Baikal, Siberia - 400 Miles long. One of the flattest places on earth.
• Impossibility of South based Circumnavigation.
• Commercial air travel routes for the Southern hemisphere are wrong (Sargent)
• As circumnavigation is often evidenced for the round earth, the fact that all possible circumnavigations are possible on a flat earth must also be evidence for the flat earth.
• All flight paths in Northern Hemisphere work. Southern GPS has issues (Sargent)
• The distance in the Southern Hemisphere is twice that of the Northern (Terra Firma)

SOLAR

• Antarctic extended daylight times did not match up for me with expected values from almanacs and on board navigation experts
• Shadows of sticks in various locations show a flat earth with a sun rotating above it (Rowbotham)
• Shadows of sticks in various locations show a flat earth by Taoist scholars
• Rays of light are not parallel when passing through clouds from sun.
• Reflections of the sun on the earths surface

THE HEAVENS AND SPACE

• The vacuum of space would rip the gas off our planet
• No vacuum has ever been created, yet we are to believe space is a vacuum
• The changing heavens and the appearance and disappearance of stars is often cited as evidence for the round earth. It is also evidence towards the idea that "The stars are set in a hemispherical dome so close to the earth that all cannot be seen at the same time" - Voliva.
• The North Star has been seen below the equator more than 20 degrees south. (Carpenter) This is only possible on a flat earth.

FLIGHT AND SEA TRAVEL

• No pilot, ever, has adjusted for the Coriolis effect in any stage of flight. The Earth spins at 1040 miles per hour.

Quote from: John Davis on December 07, 2017, 08:02:07 PM

Quote from: 54N on December 07, 2017, 08:00:35 PM

Quote from: John Davis on December 07, 2017, 05:17:07 PM

GPS does not require a globe. Many of your other 'proofs' are just nouns.
How about you start with one, so we can discuss it.

Bold type above added by me....    I see this often in flat earth replies,  as  a distraction tactic.  Attacking or at least diffusing a coherent post by insisting it's broken down to its components.    Sneaky!

Its very difficult to have a conversation over a laundry list of topics; really for anything. By choosing a particular point to start, its possible to move through them one by one.

So how about this.  GPS we know is used on airplanes, everyone knows that.  How is it possible to use GPS on long distance flights over large expanses of water if there is not satellites? 

Quote from: John Davis on December 07, 2017, 05:31:52 PM

Actually GPS does not require satellites, just accurate clocks. Nouns are not proofs, they are nouns.

Actually GPS does not require satellites, just

• accurate clocks,
• sufficient GPS transmitters so that each location on earth can receive from at least 4, I can usually receive from about 20,
• the location of each transmitter known at any time to within a fraction of a metre.

How can sufficient transmitters be provided if GPS does not use use satellites.
Of course the GPS simply stands for Global Positioning System,
but the generic name for the system is GNSS, standing for Global Navigation Satellite System.

Hence either GNSS uses satellites or all nations implementing it (USA, Russia, China and the EU) are lying to the rest of the world.
I suggest that that you need some very good evidence before making accusations like that!

But, I fail to see why you seem to be claiming that the GNSS does not use satellites.
After all you stated that, "Satellites and ISS are completely consistent with my work.". See:

Quote from: John Davis on November 26, 2015, 12:56:37 PM

Its not a lie. Satellites and ISS are completely consistent with my work. Of course, much of round earth theory wants us to believe instead that a magical force defies most of Newtons Laws - we instead realize our naive view of space.

Mind you, I'd like to know what this, "magical force (that) defies most of Newtons Laws" really is?

Quote from: John Davis on December 07, 2017, 08:02:07 PM

Its very difficult to have a conversation over a laundry list of topics; really for anything. By choosing a particular point to start, its possible to move through them one by one.

Yes it is isn't it!
Most of your individual bits of supposed evidence are either totally meaningless or trivially easy to debunk, but 142 of them???

Quote from: John Davis on September 03, 2016, 10:09:00 PM

The fact is I'm embarrassed with the riches of evidence that the Earth is not a Planet. This list is intended as an ongoing account of reasons and evidences I've read, heard, or otherwise have been related to me for belief in the Flat Earth.

THE MYTHICAL CURVE

• Find the curve! You can't. Every experience we have says it's flat - from the beach to Mount Everest to a plane.
• Lack of Curvature in Planes
• Curvature has not been seen at heights of 38,000 ft+
• The only evidence showing curvature is from Big Science.
• Weather balloons routinely show a  flat earth unless distorted by the lens - often we'll see this happen as it appears concave/convex/ and flat alternating.  There is no law of optics that would allow a body to appear flat if it was indeed round.
• You can see Rotspitze, Collalto, GroBglockner, Rote Spitze, Sass De Putia and Sass Rigais from the same spot with no curvature. Also Rauchkofel.
• Shots of Blue Origin from space and from earth show that curvature is seen at ground level the same as from low earth orbit. This proves curvature seen from space is determined by how it was filmed.
• We are too small to see curvature yet boats can be seen to dip below a hill of water?!

WATER IS LEVEL

• Water has been determined experimentally to be level. If the earth was round, and spun, water would not be level.
• The Bedford Level Experiment (Rowbotham, Shenton, Blount, et al)
• No distortion in reflections in ocean curvature.
• Lake Quinsigamond is level. "The writer, with a first-class mechanic and a well-known up-to-date photographer, made a trip to Lake Quinsigamond on the 2nd day of June, 1908, and tried the same experiment in practically the same way, and took a photograph of the scene, which proved beyond any doubt in the minds of those present, that the water in that lake was level on the surface, and so acknowledged by the photographer who still believes the Earth is a Globe."  Charles William Morse (author of Unpopular Truth...)

ARCHITECTURE AND RAILROADS

• No consideration is made in architecture of large constructions for curvature of earth.
• No consideration is made in the construction of the Suez Canal - it forms a straight and level surface of water (Carpenter)
• Danyang-Kunshan Grand Bridge, China. 102.4 Mile long bridge does not compensate properly for the curvature of the earth
• The walls of tall buildings can be found to be parallel.
• Lake Pontchartrain Causeway, Metairie, LA - 23.87 miles long with 380 Feet of missing curvature.
• The locks at Gatun lake would be impossible on a globe.
• Curvature not allowed for in construction of railways. The London and North Western Railway between London and Liverpool  forms a line of 180 miles. The highest point, midway, as at Birmingham station, which is 240 feet above the leve of the sea at london and Liverpool. On a globe the chord of the arc between London and Liverpool would be at Birmingham 5,400  feet above sealevel at london and Liverpool added to which the actual height of the station between of 240 feet and we have 5,640 ft. Not one inch was allowed for. (Terra Firma 126)
• . The Great Canal of China, 700 miles in length, was made without regard to any allowance for curvature as the Chinese rightfully believed the Earth to be flat and stationary.  (Carpenter)
• Likewise for the North Sea Canal.(TF 134)
• Likewise for the Manchester Ship Canal. (TF 134)

VIEWING IMPOSSIBLE DISTANCES

• We can see further than expected many places on earth. I get several messages a month from folks in distant areas showing me photographs of locations far beyond the curvature. I myself grew up on Lake Ontario and could see the CN tower far further away than I should have as well as the Toronto Skyline.
• Lighthouses can be seen further than one would expect. Cape Hatteras is seen at 40 miles, which should be 900 feet above the sea level to be visible. This is not the case (Carpenter)
• Balcony of the alps you can see for  190 miles - no curvature.
• The Erego Light in Norway is 154 feet above water and visible from 28 miles - it should be 230 feet below the horizon.
• You can restore the sunken hull of a ship using a telescope. Since telescopes don't peer through a hill of water, the earth must be flat. (Carpenter) This has been replicated by former forum user Tom Bishop.
• At Rock City you can pay to "See Seven States" an impossibility on a round earth.
• August 1890 C manoeuvre Fleet signalled with Search Light to colliers 70 miles away; "According to Astronomers these vessels should have been 3,200 feet below the horizon, allowing for a height of 40 feet on the signalling vessel, and 26 on the colliers!!!" Pearsons Weekly related through Terra Firma
• Daily Mail of 10th Nov 1899 relates Search-light at Kimberley visible at a distance of 115 miles. (Terra Firma)

ROTATION AND MOVEMENT

• Everything we know and feel says it doesn't spin.
• We'd feel the rotational acceleration.
• Air does not feel this acceleration. Winds aren't rushing by us in one direction as gravity would dictate. (Ptolemy)
• So would projectiles - we've talked to experts and they say the don't account for that. Snipers and Ballistics experts we have interviewed do not account for coriolis effects (Mark Sargent)
• No difference in the distance bullets travel against or with the supposed rotation (Carpenter)
• Train tracks degrade eveny on both sides - if the earth rotated they would be more worn on one side.  Railroads have even wear in spite of Coriolis effects.
• A gun shot upwards, rather than with or against the curvature, falls near the gun - not a ridiculous distance away due to the movement of the planet. (Carpenter)
• Foucault Pendulums must be controlled magnetically to achieve real results as they are in most museums
• As often as not the Foucault pendulum travels the incorrect direction!
• Long range ballistics don't take into account the shape of the earth or its rotation
• If earth were rotating at 1,000 MPH while revolving at 66,600 MPH around the sun as the sun is traveling at 450,00 MPH gyroscopes would be going nuts.
• Rotation would be noticed in rabbit eye photographs like those studied by Ter Braak.
• Rotation would be noticed when moving latitudes, as per the Mulder Law.
• A helicopter cannot hover in still motion and expect the earth to rotate below him. S. Shenton, Henriet
• "They say the earth is round, both land and water, and that they are always moving around the sun. But if you ask them how the water keeps in its bed while the earth is turning, they will tell you to take a pail of water and swing it fast and see, for the water will not come out until the pail is slowed down.Who has seen the earth turn around in the way that a person turns a pail? No one. And as long as no one has ever seen or felt the earth turn, you need not believe it so."  Enlightenment of the World
• Tycho Brahe argued against the rotating earth as if the earth revolved around the sun, the relative position of the stars would change a lot - they measured at intervals of six months and found that they were in exactly the same position as they had been. (Winship)
• "If the Earth did move at a tremendous speed, how could we keep a grip on it with our feet? ... should find it slipping rapidly under our footsteps. ... Then, which way is it turning? If we walked in the direction of its tremendous speed, it would push us on terribly rapidly." Missen in The Sun Goes Round the Earth
• Airplanes would stand still when flying at the rate of spin of the Earth in the same direction of spin. Henriet, Heaven and Earth

LUNAR

• How are the moon phases are lit in seemingly impossible ways when both the sun and moon are in sky?
• Daytime lunar eclipses as noted by Kepler.  Over 50 Lunar Eclipses have been reported while the Sun is in the sky. How can a lunar eclipse happen when the three bodies are not in a straight line? We are given the answer that its because of refraction. Charles Fort would call this attempted positivism and I happen to agree. The necessity to conform all damned facts to orthodoxy is strong within the indoctrinated. Luckily Samuel Rowbotham gives us a simple experiment to debunk this in ENaG.
• The lunar eclipse is red. If this was caused by refraction and rayleigh scattering, we'd see a red tint to the everything during the lunar eclipse. Instead, only the moon is red.
• The moon is semi-transparent. Many reports historically and in moderns times have been given where one can see stars through the moon.
• The moon's light is of a different nature than the sun - it has its own set of dangerous properties.
• "We have seen that during a Lunar Eclipse the Moon's self-luminous surface is covered by a semi-transparent 'something'; and this 'something' is a definite mass, because it has a distinct and circular outline, as seen during its first and last contact with the Moon. As a Solar Eclipse occurs from the Moon passing before the Sun, so, from the evidence above collected, it is evidence that a Lunar Eclipse arises from a similar cause. A body, semi-transparent and well defined, passing before the Moon; or between the Moon's surface and the observe on the surface of the Earth. " Zetetic Astronomy

TRAVEL DISTANCES AND GEOGRAPHY

• Navigation at sea is done through "Plane Sailing"
• The surveyor's plans for the first Atlantic Telegraph cable show that in 1665 miles - from Valentia Ireland to St. John's Newfoundland - the surface of the Atlantic ocean is a level surface. (Carpenter)
• The Nile flows 1000 miles with a drop of only 1 foot , Terra Firma
• Lake Baikal, Siberia - 400 Miles long. One of the flattest places on earth.
• Impossibility of South based Circumnavigation.
• Commercial air travel routes for the Southern hemisphere are wrong (Sargent)
• As circumnavigation is often evidenced for the round earth, the fact that all possible circumnavigations are possible on a flat earth must also be evidence for the flat earth.
• All flight paths in Northern Hemisphere work. Southern GPS has issues (Sargent)
• The distance in the Southern Hemisphere is twice that of the Northern (Terra Firma)

SOLAR

• Antarctic extended daylight times did not match up for me with expected values from almanacs and on board navigation experts
• Shadows of sticks in various locations show a flat earth with a sun rotating above it (Rowbotham)
• Shadows of sticks in various locations show a flat earth by Taoist scholars
• Rays of light are not parallel when passing through clouds from sun.
• Reflections of the sun on the earths surface

THE HEAVENS AND SPACE

• The vacuum of space would rip the gas off our planet
• No vacuum has ever been created, yet we are to believe space is a vacuum
• The changing heavens and the appearance and disappearance of stars is often cited as evidence for the round earth. It is also evidence towards the idea that "The stars are set in a hemispherical dome so close to the earth that all cannot be seen at the same time" - Voliva.
• The North Star has been seen below the equator more than 20 degrees south. (Carpenter) This is only possible on a flat earth.

FLIGHT AND SEA TRAVEL

• No pilot, ever, has adjusted for the Coriolis effect in any stage of flight. The Earth spins at 1040 miles per hour.

Quote from: firejimmy on December 07, 2017, 08:08:30 PM

Quote from: John Davis on December 07, 2017, 08:02:07 PM

Quote from: 54N on December 07, 2017, 08:00:35 PM

Quote from: John Davis on December 07, 2017, 05:17:07 PM

GPS does not require a globe. Many of your other 'proofs' are just nouns.
How about you start with one, so we can discuss it.

Bold type above added by me....    I see this often in flat earth replies,  as  a distraction tactic.  Attacking or at least diffusing a coherent post by insisting it's broken down to its components.    Sneaky!

Its very difficult to have a conversation over a laundry list of topics; really for anything. By choosing a particular point to start, its possible to move through them one by one.

So how about this.  GPS we know is used on airplanes, everyone knows that.  How is it possible to use GPS on long distance flights over large expanses of water if there is not satellites? 

Quote from: rabinoz on December 08, 2017, 12:24:52 AM

Quote from: John Davis on December 07, 2017, 05:31:52 PM

Actually GPS does not require satellites, just accurate clocks. Nouns are not proofs, they are nouns.

Actually GPS does not require satellites, just

• accurate clocks,
• sufficient GPS transmitters so that each location on earth can receive from at least 4, I can usually receive from about 20,
• the location of each transmitter known at any time to within a fraction of a metre.

How can sufficient transmitters be provided if GPS does not use use satellites.
Of course the GPS simply stands for Global Positioning System,
but the generic name for the system is GNSS, standing for Global Navigation Satellite System.

Hence either GNSS uses satellites or all nations implementing it (USA, Russia, China and the EU) are lying to the rest of the world.
I suggest that that you need some very good evidence before making accusations like that!

But, I fail to see why you seem to be claiming that the GNSS does not use satellites.
After all you stated that, "Satellites and ISS are completely consistent with my work.". See:

Quote from: John Davis on November 26, 2015, 12:56:37 PM

Its not a lie. Satellites and ISS are completely consistent with my work. Of course, much of round earth theory wants us to believe instead that a magical force defies most of Newtons Laws - we instead realize our naive view of space.

Mind you, I'd like to know what this, "magical force (that) defies most of Newtons Laws" really is?

I'm glad you agree that GPS does not require the use of satellites.

You ask: How can sufficient transmitters be provided if GPS does not use use satellites.? I don't know. I could read the my previous post where I point folks to the documentation on pseudolites which can be found in the IEEE XPLOR database. But then you'd have to actually read the argument at hand before you jump in. This is also the answer to 'firejimmy' above.

Quote from: John Davis on December 07, 2017, 08:02:07 PM

Its very difficult to have a conversation over a laundry list of topics; really for anything. By choosing a particular point to start, its possible to move through them one by one.

Yes it is isn't it!
Most of your individual bits of supposed evidence are either totally meaningless or trivially easy to debunk, but 142 of them???

Quote from: John Davis on September 03, 2016, 10:09:00 PM

The fact is I'm embarrassed with the riches of evidence that the Earth is not a Planet. This list is intended as an ongoing account of reasons and evidences I've read, heard, or otherwise have been related to me for belief in the Flat Earth.

THE MYTHICAL CURVE

• Find the curve! You can't. Every experience we have says it's flat - from the beach to Mount Everest to a plane.
• Lack of Curvature in Planes
• Curvature has not been seen at heights of 38,000 ft+
• The only evidence showing curvature is from Big Science.
• Weather balloons routinely show a  flat earth unless distorted by the lens - often we'll see this happen as it appears concave/convex/ and flat alternating.  There is no law of optics that would allow a body to appear flat if it was indeed round.
• You can see Rotspitze, Collalto, GroBglockner, Rote Spitze, Sass De Putia and Sass Rigais from the same spot with no curvature. Also Rauchkofel.
• Shots of Blue Origin from space and from earth show that curvature is seen at ground level the same as from low earth orbit. This proves curvature seen from space is determined by how it was filmed.
• We are too small to see curvature yet boats can be seen to dip below a hill of water?!

WATER IS LEVEL

• Water has been determined experimentally to be level. If the earth was round, and spun, water would not be level.
• The Bedford Level Experiment (Rowbotham, Shenton, Blount, et al)
• No distortion in reflections in ocean curvature.
• Lake Quinsigamond is level. "The writer, with a first-class mechanic and a well-known up-to-date photographer, made a trip to Lake Quinsigamond on the 2nd day of June, 1908, and tried the same experiment in practically the same way, and took a photograph of the scene, which proved beyond any doubt in the minds of those present, that the water in that lake was level on the surface, and so acknowledged by the photographer who still believes the Earth is a Globe."  Charles William Morse (author of Unpopular Truth...)

ARCHITECTURE AND RAILROADS

• No consideration is made in architecture of large constructions for curvature of earth.
• No consideration is made in the construction of the Suez Canal - it forms a straight and level surface of water (Carpenter)
• Danyang-Kunshan Grand Bridge, China. 102.4 Mile long bridge does not compensate properly for the curvature of the earth
• The walls of tall buildings can be found to be parallel.
• Lake Pontchartrain Causeway, Metairie, LA - 23.87 miles long with 380 Feet of missing curvature.
• The locks at Gatun lake would be impossible on a globe.
• Curvature not allowed for in construction of railways. The London and North Western Railway between London and Liverpool  forms a line of 180 miles. The highest point, midway, as at Birmingham station, which is 240 feet above the leve of the sea at london and Liverpool. On a globe the chord of the arc between London and Liverpool would be at Birmingham 5,400  feet above sealevel at london and Liverpool added to which the actual height of the station between of 240 feet and we have 5,640 ft. Not one inch was allowed for. (Terra Firma 126)
• . The Great Canal of China, 700 miles in length, was made without regard to any allowance for curvature as the Chinese rightfully believed the Earth to be flat and stationary.  (Carpenter)
• Likewise for the North Sea Canal.(TF 134)
• Likewise for the Manchester Ship Canal. (TF 134)

VIEWING IMPOSSIBLE DISTANCES

• We can see further than expected many places on earth. I get several messages a month from folks in distant areas showing me photographs of locations far beyond the curvature. I myself grew up on Lake Ontario and could see the CN tower far further away than I should have as well as the Toronto Skyline.
• Lighthouses can be seen further than one would expect. Cape Hatteras is seen at 40 miles, which should be 900 feet above the sea level to be visible. This is not the case (Carpenter)
• Balcony of the alps you can see for  190 miles - no curvature.
• The Erego Light in Norway is 154 feet above water and visible from 28 miles - it should be 230 feet below the horizon.
• You can restore the sunken hull of a ship using a telescope. Since telescopes don't peer through a hill of water, the earth must be flat. (Carpenter) This has been replicated by former forum user Tom Bishop.
• At Rock City you can pay to "See Seven States" an impossibility on a round earth.
• August 1890 C manoeuvre Fleet signalled with Search Light to colliers 70 miles away; "According to Astronomers these vessels should have been 3,200 feet below the horizon, allowing for a height of 40 feet on the signalling vessel, and 26 on the colliers!!!" Pearsons Weekly related through Terra Firma
• Daily Mail of 10th Nov 1899 relates Search-light at Kimberley visible at a distance of 115 miles. (Terra Firma)

ROTATION AND MOVEMENT

• Everything we know and feel says it doesn't spin.
• We'd feel the rotational acceleration.
• Air does not feel this acceleration. Winds aren't rushing by us in one direction as gravity would dictate. (Ptolemy)
• So would projectiles - we've talked to experts and they say the don't account for that. Snipers and Ballistics experts we have interviewed do not account for coriolis effects (Mark Sargent)
• No difference in the distance bullets travel against or with the supposed rotation (Carpenter)
• Train tracks degrade eveny on both sides - if the earth rotated they would be more worn on one side.  Railroads have even wear in spite of Coriolis effects.
• A gun shot upwards, rather than with or against the curvature, falls near the gun - not a ridiculous distance away due to the movement of the planet. (Carpenter)
• Foucault Pendulums must be controlled magnetically to achieve real results as they are in most museums
• As often as not the Foucault pendulum travels the incorrect direction!
• Long range ballistics don't take into account the shape of the earth or its rotation
• If earth were rotating at 1,000 MPH while revolving at 66,600 MPH around the sun as the sun is traveling at 450,00 MPH gyroscopes would be going nuts.
• Rotation would be noticed in rabbit eye photographs like those studied by Ter Braak.
• Rotation would be noticed when moving latitudes, as per the Mulder Law.
• A helicopter cannot hover in still motion and expect the earth to rotate below him. S. Shenton, Henriet
• "They say the earth is round, both land and water, and that they are always moving around the sun. But if you ask them how the water keeps in its bed while the earth is turning, they will tell you to take a pail of water and swing it fast and see, for the water will not come out until the pail is slowed down.Who has seen the earth turn around in the way that a person turns a pail? No one. And as long as no one has ever seen or felt the earth turn, you need not believe it so."  Enlightenment of the World
• Tycho Brahe argued against the rotating earth as if the earth revolved around the sun, the relative position of the stars would change a lot - they measured at intervals of six months and found that they were in exactly the same position as they had been. (Winship)
• "If the Earth did move at a tremendous speed, how could we keep a grip on it with our feet? ... should find it slipping rapidly under our footsteps. ... Then, which way is it turning? If we walked in the direction of its tremendous speed, it would push us on terribly rapidly." Missen in The Sun Goes Round the Earth
• Airplanes would stand still when flying at the rate of spin of the Earth in the same direction of spin. Henriet, Heaven and Earth

LUNAR

• How are the moon phases are lit in seemingly impossible ways when both the sun and moon are in sky?
• Daytime lunar eclipses as noted by Kepler.  Over 50 Lunar Eclipses have been reported while the Sun is in the sky. How can a lunar eclipse happen when the three bodies are not in a straight line? We are given the answer that its because of refraction. Charles Fort would call this attempted positivism and I happen to agree. The necessity to conform all damned facts to orthodoxy is strong within the indoctrinated. Luckily Samuel Rowbotham gives us a simple experiment to debunk this in ENaG.
• The lunar eclipse is red. If this was caused by refraction and rayleigh scattering, we'd see a red tint to the everything during the lunar eclipse. Instead, only the moon is red.
• The moon is semi-transparent. Many reports historically and in moderns times have been given where one can see stars through the moon.
• The moon's light is of a different nature than the sun - it has its own set of dangerous properties.
• "We have seen that during a Lunar Eclipse the Moon's self-luminous surface is covered by a semi-transparent 'something'; and this 'something' is a definite mass, because it has a distinct and circular outline, as seen during its first and last contact with the Moon. As a Solar Eclipse occurs from the Moon passing before the Sun, so, from the evidence above collected, it is evidence that a Lunar Eclipse arises from a similar cause. A body, semi-transparent and well defined, passing before the Moon; or between the Moon's surface and the observe on the surface of the Earth. " Zetetic Astronomy

TRAVEL DISTANCES AND GEOGRAPHY

• Navigation at sea is done through "Plane Sailing"
• The surveyor's plans for the first Atlantic Telegraph cable show that in 1665 miles - from Valentia Ireland to St. John's Newfoundland - the surface of the Atlantic ocean is a level surface. (Carpenter)
• The Nile flows 1000 miles with a drop of only 1 foot , Terra Firma
• Lake Baikal, Siberia - 400 Miles long. One of the flattest places on earth.
• Impossibility of South based Circumnavigation.
• Commercial air travel routes for the Southern hemisphere are wrong (Sargent)
• As circumnavigation is often evidenced for the round earth, the fact that all possible circumnavigations are possible on a flat earth must also be evidence for the flat earth.
• All flight paths in Northern Hemisphere work. Southern GPS has issues (Sargent)
• The distance in the Southern Hemisphere is twice that of the Northern (Terra Firma)

SOLAR

• Antarctic extended daylight times did not match up for me with expected values from almanacs and on board navigation experts
• Shadows of sticks in various locations show a flat earth with a sun rotating above it (Rowbotham)
• Shadows of sticks in various locations show a flat earth by Taoist scholars
• Rays of light are not parallel when passing through clouds from sun.
• Reflections of the sun on the earths surface

THE HEAVENS AND SPACE

• The vacuum of space would rip the gas off our planet
• No vacuum has ever been created, yet we are to believe space is a vacuum
• The changing heavens and the appearance and disappearance of stars is often cited as evidence for the round earth. It is also evidence towards the idea that "The stars are set in a hemispherical dome so close to the earth that all cannot be seen at the same time" - Voliva.
• The North Star has been seen below the equator more than 20 degrees south. (Carpenter) This is only possible on a flat earth.

FLIGHT AND SEA TRAVEL

• No pilot, ever, has adjusted for the Coriolis effect in any stage of flight. The Earth spins at 1040 miles per hour.

Quote from: John Davis on December 08, 2017, 10:15:33 AM

Quote from: firejimmy on December 07, 2017, 08:08:30 PM

Quote from: John Davis on December 07, 2017, 08:02:07 PM

Quote from: 54N on December 07, 2017, 08:00:35 PM

Quote from: John Davis on December 07, 2017, 05:17:07 PM

GPS does not require a globe. Many of your other 'proofs' are just nouns.
How about you start with one, so we can discuss it.

Bold type above added by me....    I see this often in flat earth replies,  as  a distraction tactic.  Attacking or at least diffusing a coherent post by insisting it's broken down to its components.    Sneaky!

Its very difficult to have a conversation over a laundry list of topics; really for anything. By choosing a particular point to start, its possible to move through them one by one.

So how about this.  GPS we know is used on airplanes, everyone knows that.  How is it possible to use GPS on long distance flights over large expanses of water if there is not satellites? 

Quote from: rabinoz on December 08, 2017, 12:24:52 AM

Quote from: John Davis on December 07, 2017, 05:31:52 PM

Actually GPS does not require satellites, just accurate clocks. Nouns are not proofs, they are nouns.

Actually GPS does not require satellites, just

• accurate clocks,
• sufficient GPS transmitters so that each location on earth can receive from at least 4, I can usually receive from about 20,
• the location of each transmitter known at any time to within a fraction of a metre.

How can sufficient transmitters be provided if GPS does not use use satellites.
Of course the GPS simply stands for Global Positioning System,
but the generic name for the system is GNSS, standing for Global Navigation Satellite System.

Hence either GNSS uses satellites or all nations implementing it (USA, Russia, China and the EU) are lying to the rest of the world.
I suggest that that you need some very good evidence before making accusations like that!

But, I fail to see why you seem to be claiming that the GNSS does not use satellites.
After all you stated that, "Satellites and ISS are completely consistent with my work.". See:

Quote from: John Davis on November 26, 2015, 12:56:37 PM

Its not a lie. Satellites and ISS are completely consistent with my work. Of course, much of round earth theory wants us to believe instead that a magical force defies most of Newtons Laws - we instead realize our naive view of space.

Mind you, I'd like to know what this, "magical force (that) defies most of Newtons Laws" really is?

I'm glad you agree that GPS does not require the use of satellites.

You ask: How can sufficient transmitters be provided if GPS does not use use satellites.? I don't know. I could read the my previous post where I point folks to the documentation on pseudolites which can be found in the IEEE XPLOR database. But then you'd have to actually read the argument at hand before you jump in. This is also the answer to 'firejimmy' above.

Yes there are some "GPS" units that do not require a satellite such as the one of your phone.  Those still do require a paid for service of some sort. 

A true GPS handheld unit such as those used on back country hiking or those used in cars do require a satellite since there is no additional service paid for.  How do those work of not getting data from a satellite.  Also, the GPS units used in aviation at high altitudes and over large expanses of water hundreds, sometimes thousands of miles from any land mass, how do those work if not off of a satellite? 

Quote from: rabinoz on December 08, 2017, 12:35:51 AM

Quote from: John Davis on December 07, 2017, 08:02:07 PM

Its very difficult to have a conversation over a laundry list of topics; really for anything. By choosing a particular point to start, its possible to move through them one by one.

Yes it is isn't it!
Most of your individual bits of supposed evidence are either totally meaningless or trivially easy to debunk, but 142 of them???

Quote from: John Davis on September 03, 2016, 10:09:00 PM

The fact is I'm embarrassed with the riches of evidence that the Earth is not a Planet. This list is intended as an ongoing account of reasons and evidences I've read, heard, or otherwise have been related to me for belief in the Flat Earth.

THE MYTHICAL CURVE

• Find the curve! You can't. Every experience we have says it's flat - from the beach to Mount Everest to a plane.
• Lack of Curvature in Planes
• Curvature has not been seen at heights of 38,000 ft+
• The only evidence showing curvature is from Big Science.
• Weather balloons routinely show a  flat earth unless distorted by the lens - often we'll see this happen as it appears concave/convex/ and flat alternating.  There is no law of optics that would allow a body to appear flat if it was indeed round.
• You can see Rotspitze, Collalto, GroBglockner, Rote Spitze, Sass De Putia and Sass Rigais from the same spot with no curvature. Also Rauchkofel.
• Shots of Blue Origin from space and from earth show that curvature is seen at ground level the same as from low earth orbit. This proves curvature seen from space is determined by how it was filmed.
• We are too small to see curvature yet boats can be seen to dip below a hill of water?!

WATER IS LEVEL

• Water has been determined experimentally to be level. If the earth was round, and spun, water would not be level.
• The Bedford Level Experiment (Rowbotham, Shenton, Blount, et al)
• No distortion in reflections in ocean curvature.
• Lake Quinsigamond is level. "The writer, with a first-class mechanic and a well-known up-to-date photographer, made a trip to Lake Quinsigamond on the 2nd day of June, 1908, and tried the same experiment in practically the same way, and took a photograph of the scene, which proved beyond any doubt in the minds of those present, that the water in that lake was level on the surface, and so acknowledged by the photographer who still believes the Earth is a Globe."  Charles William Morse (author of Unpopular Truth...)

ARCHITECTURE AND RAILROADS

• No consideration is made in architecture of large constructions for curvature of earth.
• No consideration is made in the construction of the Suez Canal - it forms a straight and level surface of water (Carpenter)
• Danyang-Kunshan Grand Bridge, China. 102.4 Mile long bridge does not compensate properly for the curvature of the earth
• The walls of tall buildings can be found to be parallel.
• Lake Pontchartrain Causeway, Metairie, LA - 23.87 miles long with 380 Feet of missing curvature.
• The locks at Gatun lake would be impossible on a globe.
• Curvature not allowed for in construction of railways. The London and North Western Railway between London and Liverpool  forms a line of 180 miles. The highest point, midway, as at Birmingham station, which is 240 feet above the leve of the sea at london and Liverpool. On a globe the chord of the arc between London and Liverpool would be at Birmingham 5,400  feet above sealevel at london and Liverpool added to which the actual height of the station between of 240 feet and we have 5,640 ft. Not one inch was allowed for. (Terra Firma 126)
• . The Great Canal of China, 700 miles in length, was made without regard to any allowance for curvature as the Chinese rightfully believed the Earth to be flat and stationary.  (Carpenter)
• Likewise for the North Sea Canal.(TF 134)
• Likewise for the Manchester Ship Canal. (TF 134)

VIEWING IMPOSSIBLE DISTANCES

• We can see further than expected many places on earth. I get several messages a month from folks in distant areas showing me photographs of locations far beyond the curvature. I myself grew up on Lake Ontario and could see the CN tower far further away than I should have as well as the Toronto Skyline.
• Lighthouses can be seen further than one would expect. Cape Hatteras is seen at 40 miles, which should be 900 feet above the sea level to be visible. This is not the case (Carpenter)
• Balcony of the alps you can see for  190 miles - no curvature.
• The Erego Light in Norway is 154 feet above water and visible from 28 miles - it should be 230 feet below the horizon.
• You can restore the sunken hull of a ship using a telescope. Since telescopes don't peer through a hill of water, the earth must be flat. (Carpenter) This has been replicated by former forum user Tom Bishop.
• At Rock City you can pay to "See Seven States" an impossibility on a round earth.
• August 1890 C manoeuvre Fleet signalled with Search Light to colliers 70 miles away; "According to Astronomers these vessels should have been 3,200 feet below the horizon, allowing for a height of 40 feet on the signalling vessel, and 26 on the colliers!!!" Pearsons Weekly related through Terra Firma
• Daily Mail of 10th Nov 1899 relates Search-light at Kimberley visible at a distance of 115 miles. (Terra Firma)

ROTATION AND MOVEMENT

• Everything we know and feel says it doesn't spin.
• We'd feel the rotational acceleration.
• Air does not feel this acceleration. Winds aren't rushing by us in one direction as gravity would dictate. (Ptolemy)
• So would projectiles - we've talked to experts and they say the don't account for that. Snipers and Ballistics experts we have interviewed do not account for coriolis effects (Mark Sargent)
• No difference in the distance bullets travel against or with the supposed rotation (Carpenter)
• Train tracks degrade eveny on both sides - if the earth rotated they would be more worn on one side.  Railroads have even wear in spite of Coriolis effects.
• A gun shot upwards, rather than with or against the curvature, falls near the gun - not a ridiculous distance away due to the movement of the planet. (Carpenter)
• Foucault Pendulums must be controlled magnetically to achieve real results as they are in most museums
• As often as not the Foucault pendulum travels the incorrect direction!
• Long range ballistics don't take into account the shape of the earth or its rotation
• If earth were rotating at 1,000 MPH while revolving at 66,600 MPH around the sun as the sun is traveling at 450,00 MPH gyroscopes would be going nuts.
• Rotation would be noticed in rabbit eye photographs like those studied by Ter Braak.
• Rotation would be noticed when moving latitudes, as per the Mulder Law.
• A helicopter cannot hover in still motion and expect the earth to rotate below him. S. Shenton, Henriet
• "They say the earth is round, both land and water, and that they are always moving around the sun. But if you ask them how the water keeps in its bed while the earth is turning, they will tell you to take a pail of water and swing it fast and see, for the water will not come out until the pail is slowed down.Who has seen the earth turn around in the way that a person turns a pail? No one. And as long as no one has ever seen or felt the earth turn, you need not believe it so."  Enlightenment of the World
• Tycho Brahe argued against the rotating earth as if the earth revolved around the sun, the relative position of the stars would change a lot - they measured at intervals of six months and found that they were in exactly the same position as they had been. (Winship)
• "If the Earth did move at a tremendous speed, how could we keep a grip on it with our feet? ... should find it slipping rapidly under our footsteps. ... Then, which way is it turning? If we walked in the direction of its tremendous speed, it would push us on terribly rapidly." Missen in The Sun Goes Round the Earth
• Airplanes would stand still when flying at the rate of spin of the Earth in the same direction of spin. Henriet, Heaven and Earth

LUNAR

• How are the moon phases are lit in seemingly impossible ways when both the sun and moon are in sky?
• Daytime lunar eclipses as noted by Kepler.  Over 50 Lunar Eclipses have been reported while the Sun is in the sky. How can a lunar eclipse happen when the three bodies are not in a straight line? We are given the answer that its because of refraction. Charles Fort would call this attempted positivism and I happen to agree. The necessity to conform all damned facts to orthodoxy is strong within the indoctrinated. Luckily Samuel Rowbotham gives us a simple experiment to debunk this in ENaG.
• The lunar eclipse is red. If this was caused by refraction and rayleigh scattering, we'd see a red tint to the everything during the lunar eclipse. Instead, only the moon is red.
• The moon is semi-transparent. Many reports historically and in moderns times have been given where one can see stars through the moon.
• The moon's light is of a different nature than the sun - it has its own set of dangerous properties.
• "We have seen that during a Lunar Eclipse the Moon's self-luminous surface is covered by a semi-transparent 'something'; and this 'something' is a definite mass, because it has a distinct and circular outline, as seen during its first and last contact with the Moon. As a Solar Eclipse occurs from the Moon passing before the Sun, so, from the evidence above collected, it is evidence that a Lunar Eclipse arises from a similar cause. A body, semi-transparent and well defined, passing before the Moon; or between the Moon's surface and the observe on the surface of the Earth. " Zetetic Astronomy

TRAVEL DISTANCES AND GEOGRAPHY

• Navigation at sea is done through "Plane Sailing"
• The surveyor's plans for the first Atlantic Telegraph cable show that in 1665 miles - from Valentia Ireland to St. John's Newfoundland - the surface of the Atlantic ocean is a level surface. (Carpenter)
• The Nile flows 1000 miles with a drop of only 1 foot , Terra Firma
• Lake Baikal, Siberia - 400 Miles long. One of the flattest places on earth.
• Impossibility of South based Circumnavigation.
• Commercial air travel routes for the Southern hemisphere are wrong (Sargent)
• As circumnavigation is often evidenced for the round earth, the fact that all possible circumnavigations are possible on a flat earth must also be evidence for the flat earth.
• All flight paths in Northern Hemisphere work. Southern GPS has issues (Sargent)
• The distance in the Southern Hemisphere is twice that of the Northern (Terra Firma)

SOLAR

• Antarctic extended daylight times did not match up for me with expected values from almanacs and on board navigation experts
• Shadows of sticks in various locations show a flat earth with a sun rotating above it (Rowbotham)
• Shadows of sticks in various locations show a flat earth by Taoist scholars
• Rays of light are not parallel when passing through clouds from sun.
• Reflections of the sun on the earths surface

THE HEAVENS AND SPACE

• The vacuum of space would rip the gas off our planet
• No vacuum has ever been created, yet we are to believe space is a vacuum
• The changing heavens and the appearance and disappearance of stars is often cited as evidence for the round earth. It is also evidence towards the idea that "The stars are set in a hemispherical dome so close to the earth that all cannot be seen at the same time" - Voliva.
• The North Star has been seen below the equator more than 20 degrees south. (Carpenter) This is only possible on a flat earth.

FLIGHT AND SEA TRAVEL

• No pilot, ever, has adjusted for the Coriolis effect in any stage of flight. The Earth spins at 1040 miles per hour.

More than once I have seen John reference this type of list but with the caveat that he doesn't accept all of these as evidence.  That way, no matter what you point out he can say, yeah, not that one.
He also likes to point out how, in a very limited case something being theoretically possible is evidence for the whole.

Quote from: John Davis on December 07, 2017, 05:17:07 PM

GPS does not require a globe. Many of your other 'proofs' are just nouns.

How about you start with one, so we can discuss it.

GPS does require a globe, and requires satellites.  What do you think the G stands for?  Oh and my "nouns" are proofs.  Sunrise/sunset is proof the earth is round, seasons prove the earth is round, time zones as we know them, prove the earth is round.  Yes they are nouns but proof non the less.

A true GPS handheld unit such as those used on back country hiking or those used in cars do require a satellite since there is no additional service paid for.  How do those work of not getting data from a satellite.  Also, the GPS units used in aviation at high altitudes and over large expanses of water hundreds, sometimes thousands of miles from any land mass, how do those work if not off of a satellite? 

Again, this list is meant as a reference. Not sure how I could have made that clearer in the thread.

ARCHITECTURE AND RAILROADS

• No consideration is made in architecture of large constructions for curvature of earth.
• No consideration is made in the construction of the Suez Canal - it forms a straight and level surface of water (Carpenter)
• Danyang-Kunshan Grand Bridge, China. 102.4 Mile long bridge does not compensate properly for the curvature of the earth
• The walls of tall buildings can be found to be parallel.
• Lake Pontchartrain Causeway, Metairie, LA - 23.87 miles long with 380 Feet of missing curvature.
• The locks at Gatun lake would be impossible on a globe.
• Curvature not allowed for in construction of railways. The London and North Western Railway between London and Liverpool  forms a line of 180 miles. The highest point, midway, as at Birmingham station, which is 240 feet above the leve of the sea at london and Liverpool. On a globe the chord of the arc between London and Liverpool would be at Birmingham 5,400  feet above sealevel at london and Liverpool added to which the actual height of the station between of 240 feet and we have 5,640 ft. Not one inch was allowed for. (Terra Firma 126)
• . The Great Canal of China, 700 miles in length, was made without regard to any allowance for curvature as the Chinese rightfully believed the Earth to be flat and stationary.  (Carpenter)
• Likewise for the North Sea Canal.(TF 134)
• Likewise for the Manchester Ship Canal. (TF 134)

Sure feels like its your problem, for some reason. But hey,  can't let us believe what we'd like to right?

There was much disagreement to the shape and nature of the earth - and reality - 'even back in Roman times.' We can walk that road, but I feel like I'm just going to cite references from the period supporting my points, only to have them ignored due to the weight of most hardback covers.

Of course you would need to know whether or not water is level to create an aquaduct, just as you would need to know if a slope is level to create a hill. Or a pitcher to pour some "Kool-aide." Nobody is arguing that you can't pour liquids.

Sure feels like its your problem, for some reason. But hey,  can't let us believe what we'd like to right?

There was much disagreement to the shape and nature of the earth - and reality - 'even back in Roman times.' We can walk that road, but I feel like I'm just going to cite references from the period supporting my points, only to have them ignored due to the weight of most hardback covers.

Of course you would need to know whether or not water is level to create an aquaduct, just as you would need to know if a slope is level to create a hill. Or a pitcher to pour some "Kool-aide." Nobody is arguing that you can't pour liquids.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
In the early days (even back in Roman times) a "water level" was often used in the design of aqueducts, etc. This automatically followed the curvature of the earth, which people of those days certainly believed, following the Greco-Roman cosmology of Ptolemy.

In more modern times a geodetic survey is done first and then plane surveyors make plans with elevations relative to the local MSL or other local datum. The curvature of the Globe over even a few kilometres very slight.

It's only you neo-Flatism Believers that get all screwed over these things!

Still, live your life in ignorance if you wish, it's not my problem.

by Surveyors Historical Society

GPS does not require a globe. Many of your other 'proofs' are just nouns.

How about you start with one, so we can discuss it.

The first guy in the video has a ... telescope but the second guy ... has a ...  telephoto lens.

No - it's just a name. If you're arguing this, you probably believe politicians add "Freedom" to the names of their bills because they add freedom.

What is GNSS?

The term ‘global navigation satellite system’ (GNSS) refers to a constellation of satellites providing signals from space transmitting positioning and timing data. By definition, a GNSS provides global coverage.

GNSS receivers determine location by using the timing and positioning data encoded in the signals from space. The USA’s NAVSTAR  Global Positioning System (GPS) and Russia’s Global'naya Navigatsionnaya Sputnikovaya Sistema (GLONASS) are examples of GNSS.

Europe is in the process of launching its own independent GNSS, Galileo. Since 2011, four Galileo satellites have been launched and used as part of the In-Orbit Validation phase, allowing the first autonomous position fix to be calculated based on Galileo-only signals in March 2013. The Commission aims to have the full constellation of 30 Galileo satellites (which includes six in-orbit active spares) in operation before the end of this decade." Galileo will be interoperable with GPS and GLONASS. This interoperability will allow manufacturers to develop terminals that work with Galileo, GPS and GLONASS.

From: European Geostationary Navigation Overlay Service, EGNOS

If I knew why, I wouldn't believe as I do. I wouldn't spend all my free time on forums like these, or doing interviews, or fighting the good fight. I'd be content to be right with the popular opinion.

I choose the non-euclidean map then, if it doesn't matter which flat earth map I use. Wilmore's map isn't a bad second choice. Other choices include the south centric flat earth map, the collapsing flat earth map, and the Greenville map.

I would put them with the receivers and transmitters. If I had an unlimited budget, I'd likely use pseudolites (you can find detailed engineering descriptions to these in the IEEE XPLOR database) to increase coverage. I'd probably use these in a caching sort of way, and be certain of the time it takes for them to talk to the system of record.

I choose the non-euclidean map then, if it doesn't matter which flat earth map I use. Wilmore's map isn't a bad second choice. Other choices include the south centric flat earth map, the collapsing flat earth map, and the Greenville map.

. . . if the earth were indeed flat, how could you explain that the further you get from the “center” it doesn’t feel steeper because of the centripedal force and the gravity pulling you towards both directions.

If you don’t believe that the earth spins then, how do you explain the orbits of the planets, the moon, . . .

. . . how do we orbit the sun, etc.

Also, what is the thickness of the earth? Where does lava come from? How does the pressure in magma create?

If there is an “ice wall” around earth’s “limits” how do you explain that it doesn’t get hotter the closer you get to the middle?

By the way, do you know what topography is? Because it looks like you don’t.

Infinite, below, heat, it does, yes, whatever.

So Mr Bullwinkle, are you John Davis's "alt" or his aide?