Denspressure vs Reality

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #690 on: November 27, 2017, 04:35:23 AM »
Hey folks, I need to take a break. Family and life needs me. Also, Scepti’s astonishing ignorance gives me complete confidence that the public is not in any great danger of jumping into his rabbit hole. I’ll check back later. Cheers!

cheers! And yea, I wouldn't lose sleep over anyone following him.

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MicroBeta

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #691 on: November 27, 2017, 04:36:30 AM »
<snip>
Of course you can slow down but you can never decelerate.
<snip>
Isn’t slowing down literally the definition of decelerate.

Mike
Since it costs 2.72¢ to produce a penny, putting in your 2¢ if really worth 5.44¢.

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Nightsky

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #692 on: November 27, 2017, 04:38:23 AM »


That requires you to tell me something you are familiar with, so that we can apply physics to it.
How about ACCELERATION.

I'm on a train right now going 130 kph, how many seconds will it take to stop if it looses 1 kph per second? I know it's hard, but you can figure it out if you are an expert in acceleration.
It has nothing to do with acceleration.
But yes it does.... acceleration need not be +ve.

Go look it up, go do some research, it's called learning or are you adverse to that incase you discover things that turn your world, as you see it, inside out?
You can call me Gwyneth
I said that
Oh for the love of- Logical formulation:
FET is wrong, unsupported by evidence, and most models are refuted on multiple fronts; those that aren't tend not to make enough predictions to be realistically falsifiable
Jane said these

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Slemon

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #693 on: November 27, 2017, 04:45:21 AM »
1. I have launched model rockets and watched them continue to fly up after the engine burns out, so I know that Scepti is wrong from personal observations. (I’ve also tossed many balls into the air. Try it—it’s fun!)
Given everything he's said about acceleration I sincerely doubt that qualifies as an argument.

Quote
2. I have taken physics classes where we learned that f=ma is an algebraic formula and not just a general relationship. Each of the terms (force, mass, acceleration, velocity, momentum, speed...) have specific meanings and specific ways that they interact with each other that has been known and studied for hundreds of years. Now Scepti thinks he can just scrap all that? Our entire advanced technological society is built on Newton’s Three Laws. The entire aerospace industry has it wrong? Trains, planes, and automobiles work by some new set of rules that Scepti just popped out last month? Not a chance.
Is not an actual argument, at best a handwave

Quote
3. If Scepti doesn’t even know the meanings of the most basic scientific terms, can’t understand the easiest scientific equation around, and doesn’t seem to know that people can (or how they can) throw balls in the air, then how in the great, big, beautiful, round world is he going to come up with cutting-edge physics?!
Just a general mess.

There are arguments to be made but first you need to actually pay attention to what the other person is saying.



This is kind of related to the first question as far as trying to maintain a constant velocity goes. For a kind of illustration, if an object is travelling at some fast, constant velocity of 100m/s and then has its power cut off it would immediately drop to 0m/s. But then if there was a tiny boost in the engines for a split second and it travelled at 100m/s with an acceleration of 1m/s/s at the instant the engines were cut off, would it just decelerate to lose that 1m/s/s, or would it lose that and then decelerate through the 100m/s?

I am far too tired right now so there is a chance that made no sense at all. Apologies if so.
You seem to be suggesting a two stage rocket if I'm reading you correctly.

Let's assume you are.

Ok the rocket shuts down its first burn and jettisons its structural mass for that particular burn, it would cease to advance vertically up from that immediate burn out at constant velocity.
As it's shedding its mass it would immediately start to fall before any next burn can kick in, which would render the rocket a mess and basically an impossible happening.
However, I'm talking about the so called space rocket fantasy as we are shown it, so let's get back to what we do see.


What you really see in a two stage rocket (model) is a springboard acceleration to deceleration and then a separation and then a reburn.
If this happens fast then the rocket can still be decelerating (moving up) as the next stage kicks in and immediately kick in another springboard effect until it reaches constant velocity.

So what I'm basically saying is, you will never get a stage separation and reigniting booster on any rocket moving at constant velocity.

I'm not entirely sure if I've answered your query but if not feel free to try and get me to clarify.
I'm not too focused on applying it yet, I'm intentionally trying to keep out of the rocket side of things until I understand the underlying principles of what you're saying. I'm just trying to gauge how significant this 'dead stop' effect would be in other situations.
Like, if we go back to the platform on a rope attached to a lift, if the lift goes up at a constant velocity (say, 10m/s, let's make it absurdly fast) and cuts the rope, the platform comes to a dead stop. If the lift is accelerating up, then the platform would decelerate.
But what if we try to take the middle ground between those two situations? The lift travels at a constant speed, then accelerates say 1cm/s for a second as the rope's cut, or for half a second as the rope's cut.
Or for that matter, if the lift decelerates by 1cm/s as the rope's being cut, thus still meaning the platform does not have a constant speed (slack in the rope aside. Worst case replace that with a rigid iron pole that gets unscrewed and let go).

How much/how long for would the platform decelerate normally in those cases?
The options I can see would be the object decelerating to 0m/s but much faster than if it had been accelerating for longer, the object decelerating normally to 0m/s with no difference to regular behaviour, or the object decelerating to its constat velocity and then reaching a dead stop (though that seems odd with the potential deceleration to prevent constant velocity case).

I don't quite understand the physics at play in your rocket illustration so I can't completely read it. I think you're saying the middle case, the problem is just with the practicalities of creating such a system with respect to a rocket, but i'm not sure.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #694 on: November 27, 2017, 04:45:57 AM »
<snip>
Of course you can slow down but you can never decelerate.
<snip>
Isn’t slowing down literally the definition of decelerate.

Mike

Slowing down naturally from the end point of acceleration before constant speed kicks in is natural deceleration.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #695 on: November 27, 2017, 05:08:49 AM »
I'm not too focused on applying it yet, I'm intentionally trying to keep out of the rocket side of things until I understand the underlying principles of what you're saying. I'm just trying to gauge how significant this 'dead stop' effect would be in other situations.
Like, if we go back to the platform on a rope attached to a lift, if the lift goes up at a constant velocity (say, 10m/s, let's make it absurdly fast) and cuts the rope, the platform comes to a dead stop. If the lift is accelerating up, then the platform would decelerate.
But what if we try to take the middle ground between those two situations? The lift travels at a constant speed, then accelerates say 1cm/s for a second as the rope's cut, or for half a second as the rope's cut.
Ok, then we're back to the springboard effect or if you like, the yank effect.
I think what you're trying to say is, if the motor and pulley pull on the rope at a constant speed and then somehow has a power surge for half a second just as that rope is cut.

If that happens then we have the springboard effect. The rope would yank and the lift would accelerate on that immediate yank only before the rope snaps but then decelerate for a small portion of that half second before simply stopping dead and accelerating back down.

 
Or for that matter, if the lift decelerates by 1cm/s as the rope's being cut, thus still meaning the platform does not have a constant speed (slack in the rope aside. Worst case replace that with a rigid iron pole that gets unscrewed and let go).

How much/how long for would the platform decelerate normally in those cases?
The options I can see would be the object decelerating to 0m/s but much faster than if it had been accelerating for longer, the object decelerating normally to 0m/s with no difference to regular behaviour, or the object decelerating to its constat velocity and then reaching a dead stop (though that seems odd with the potential deceleration to prevent constant velocity case).
I'm not certain on what you're getting at here. Sorry about that.
Maybe try another approach.
I might be getting mixed up between what I think you mean so i don't want to go into anything on it until I'm sure.


I don't quite understand the physics at play in your rocket illustration so I can't completely read it. I think you're saying the middle case, the problem is just with the practicalities of creating such a system with respect to a rocket, but i'm not sure.
We can leave the rocket out, no problem. If you want to come back at it then also no problem.

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #696 on: November 27, 2017, 05:10:48 AM »


That requires you to tell me something you are familiar with, so that we can apply physics to it.
How about ACCELERATION.

I'm on a train right now going 130 kph, how many seconds will it take to stop if it looses 1 kph per second? I know it's hard, but you can figure it out if you are an expert in acceleration.
It has nothing to do with acceleration.

It has everything to do with acceleration, and we all see it but you.
Nope, you're talking about a constant speed.

It's very simple. The train in my comment loses speed at a rate of 1 kph per second. That is constant deceleration by definition.

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MicroBeta

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #697 on: November 27, 2017, 05:16:29 AM »
<snip>
Of course you can slow down but you can never decelerate.
<snip>
Isn’t slowing down literally the definition of decelerate.

Mike

Slowing down naturally from the end point of acceleration before constant speed kicks in is natural deceleration.
Didn't you just say "you can never decelerate"?  Now you say there is natural deceleration?  I'm confused.  Which is it?  Can you or can't you decelerate?  How do you go from a given speed to zero without deceleration? 

Mike
Since it costs 2.72¢ to produce a penny, putting in your 2¢ if really worth 5.44¢.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #698 on: November 27, 2017, 05:28:51 AM »


That requires you to tell me something you are familiar with, so that we can apply physics to it.
How about ACCELERATION.

I'm on a train right now going 130 kph, how many seconds will it take to stop if it looses 1 kph per second? I know it's hard, but you can figure it out if you are an expert in acceleration.
It has nothing to do with acceleration.

It has everything to do with acceleration, and we all see it but you.
Nope, you're talking about a constant speed.

It's very simple. The train in my comment loses speed at a rate of 1 kph per second. That is constant deceleration by definition.
Nope, it's not a constant deceleration at all.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #699 on: November 27, 2017, 05:31:06 AM »
<snip>
Of course you can slow down but you can never decelerate.
<snip>
Isn’t slowing down literally the definition of decelerate.

Mike

Slowing down naturally from the end point of acceleration before constant speed kicks in is natural deceleration.
Didn't you just say "you can never decelerate"?  Now you say there is natural deceleration?  I'm confused.  Which is it?  Can you or can't you decelerate?  How do you go from a given speed to zero without deceleration? 

Mike
You only decelerate after going neutral at the very end of your acceleration, before it becomes a constant velocity/speed/mph.

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JimmyTheCrab

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #700 on: November 27, 2017, 05:48:15 AM »
This is one hot mess.
Quote from: mikeman7918
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if Donald Trump stuck his penis in me after trying on clothes I would have that date and time burned in my head.

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MicroBeta

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #701 on: November 27, 2017, 05:57:02 AM »
<snip>
Of course you can slow down but you can never decelerate.
<snip>
Isn’t slowing down literally the definition of decelerate.

Mike

Slowing down naturally from the end point of acceleration before constant speed kicks in is natural deceleration.
Didn't you just say "you can never decelerate"?  Now you say there is natural deceleration?  I'm confused.  Which is it?  Can you or can't you decelerate?  How do you go from a given speed to zero without deceleration? 

Mike
You only decelerate after going neutral at the very end of your acceleration, before it becomes a constant velocity/speed/mph.
I'm still wondering how you go from a given speed to zero without decelerating.  There has to be an applied force to cause the change in speed.

Mike
Since it costs 2.72¢ to produce a penny, putting in your 2¢ if really worth 5.44¢.

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NAZA

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #702 on: November 27, 2017, 06:01:56 AM »
This is one hot mess.

A 24 page proof that you can't fix stupid.

I applaud the effort but scepti is obviously divorced from reality.
A four year old has a better grasp of motion than he does. 
Just when you think that nobody can be this dumb he proves us wrong again.  Amazing to watch.

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #703 on: November 27, 2017, 06:03:59 AM »


That requires you to tell me something you are familiar with, so that we can apply physics to it.
How about ACCELERATION.

I'm on a train right now going 130 kph, how many seconds will it take to stop if it looses 1 kph per second? I know it's hard, but you can figure it out if you are an expert in acceleration.
It has nothing to do with acceleration.

It has everything to do with acceleration, and we all see it but you.
Nope, you're talking about a constant speed.

It's very simple. The train in my comment loses speed at a rate of 1 kph per second. That is constant deceleration by definition.
Nope, it's not a constant deceleration at all.

That's literally the definition of constant deceleration. The speed changes by the same amount in each unit of time.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #704 on: November 27, 2017, 06:04:34 AM »
<snip>
Of course you can slow down but you can never decelerate.
<snip>
Isn’t slowing down literally the definition of decelerate.

Mike

Slowing down naturally from the end point of acceleration before constant speed kicks in is natural deceleration.
Didn't you just say "you can never decelerate"?  Now you say there is natural deceleration?  I'm confused.  Which is it?  Can you or can't you decelerate?  How do you go from a given speed to zero without deceleration? 

Mike
You only decelerate after going neutral at the very end of your acceleration, before it becomes a constant velocity/speed/mph.
I'm still wondering how you go from a given speed to zero without decelerating.  There has to be an applied force to cause the change in speed.

Mike
On a horizontal you reduce speed.
The applied force to cause a change in speed is atmospheric resistance and friction of surface against the mass that is on it. In terms of a vehicle touching the surface.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #705 on: November 27, 2017, 06:05:52 AM »


That's literally the definition of constant deceleration. The speed changes by the same amount in each unit of time.
There's no change in constant. Constant is without change.

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #706 on: November 27, 2017, 06:12:48 AM »


That's literally the definition of constant deceleration. The speed changes by the same amount in each unit of time.
There's no change in constant. Constant is without change.

Ok, You don't understand that something can change at a constant rate? That's progress to know that.

If you fill up a bowl of water at a constant rate, it's getting fuller but the fill rate is constant. Is this what you're missing?

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SpaceCadet

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #707 on: November 27, 2017, 06:17:25 AM »
Scepti can't process the terms "change" and "constant" in the same sentence.

And he wants to develop a valid theory of how the physical world works?

Please.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 06:19:38 AM by SpaceCadet »

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #708 on: November 27, 2017, 06:18:00 AM »


That's literally the definition of constant deceleration. The speed changes by the same amount in each unit of time.
There's no change in constant. Constant is without change.

Ok, You don't understand that something can change at a constant rate? That's progress to know that.

If you fill up a bowl of water at a constant rate, it's getting fuller but the fill rate is constant. Is this what you're missing?
What am I supposed to be missing with this?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #709 on: November 27, 2017, 06:18:46 AM »
Scepti can't process the terms "change" and "constant" in the same sentence.
Because a constant is not a change, that's why.

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #710 on: November 27, 2017, 06:23:15 AM »


That's literally the definition of constant deceleration. The speed changes by the same amount in each unit of time.
There's no change in constant. Constant is without change.

Ok, You don't understand that something can change at a constant rate? That's progress to know that.

If you fill up a bowl of water at a constant rate, it's getting fuller but the fill rate is constant. Is this what you're missing?
What am I supposed to be missing with this?

Nothing. You should miss absolutely nothing about my statement; but alas, you do.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #711 on: November 27, 2017, 06:27:43 AM »


That's literally the definition of constant deceleration. The speed changes by the same amount in each unit of time.
There's no change in constant. Constant is without change.

Ok, You don't understand that something can change at a constant rate? That's progress to know that.

If you fill up a bowl of water at a constant rate, it's getting fuller but the fill rate is constant. Is this what you're missing?
What am I supposed to be missing with this?

Nothing. You should miss absolutely nothing about my statement; but alas, you do.
I seriously do not know what the hell you're trying to put across that somehow goes against what I'm saying.

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #712 on: November 27, 2017, 06:30:03 AM »


That's literally the definition of constant deceleration. The speed changes by the same amount in each unit of time.
There's no change in constant. Constant is without change.

Ok, You don't understand that something can change at a constant rate? That's progress to know that.

If you fill up a bowl of water at a constant rate, it's getting fuller but the fill rate is constant. Is this what you're missing?
What am I supposed to be missing with this?

Nothing. You should miss absolutely nothing about my statement; but alas, you do.
I seriously do not know what the hell you're trying to put across that somehow goes against what I'm saying.

Exactly. My work here is done.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #713 on: November 27, 2017, 06:32:29 AM »


That's literally the definition of constant deceleration. The speed changes by the same amount in each unit of time.
There's no change in constant. Constant is without change.

Ok, You don't understand that something can change at a constant rate? That's progress to know that.

If you fill up a bowl of water at a constant rate, it's getting fuller but the fill rate is constant. Is this what you're missing?
What am I supposed to be missing with this?

Nothing. You should miss absolutely nothing about my statement; but alas, you do.
I seriously do not know what the hell you're trying to put across that somehow goes against what I'm saying.

Exactly. My work here is done.
You haven't done any work.
Bye anyway.

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MicroBeta

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #714 on: November 27, 2017, 07:00:44 AM »
<snip>
Of course you can slow down but you can never decelerate.
<snip>
Isn’t slowing down literally the definition of decelerate.

Mike

Slowing down naturally from the end point of acceleration before constant speed kicks in is natural deceleration.
Didn't you just say "you can never decelerate"?  Now you say there is natural deceleration?  I'm confused.  Which is it?  Can you or can't you decelerate?  How do you go from a given speed to zero without deceleration? 

Mike
You only decelerate after going neutral at the very end of your acceleration, before it becomes a constant velocity/speed/mph.
I'm still wondering how you go from a given speed to zero without decelerating.  There has to be an applied force to cause the change in speed.

Mike
On a horizontal you reduce speed.
The applied force to cause a change in speed is atmospheric resistance and friction of surface against the mass that is on it. In terms of a vehicle touching the surface.
So, you have an applied force without an acceleration?
Since it costs 2.72¢ to produce a penny, putting in your 2¢ if really worth 5.44¢.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #715 on: November 27, 2017, 07:17:21 AM »
<snip>
Of course you can slow down but you can never decelerate.
<snip>
Isn’t slowing down literally the definition of decelerate.

Mike

Slowing down naturally from the end point of acceleration before constant speed kicks in is natural deceleration.
Didn't you just say "you can never decelerate"?  Now you say there is natural deceleration?  I'm confused.  Which is it?  Can you or can't you decelerate?  How do you go from a given speed to zero without deceleration? 

Mike
You only decelerate after going neutral at the very end of your acceleration, before it becomes a constant velocity/speed/mph.
I'm still wondering how you go from a given speed to zero without decelerating.  There has to be an applied force to cause the change in speed.

Mike
On a horizontal you reduce speed.
The applied force to cause a change in speed is atmospheric resistance and friction of surface against the mass that is on it. In terms of a vehicle touching the surface.
So, you have an applied force without an acceleration?
In terms of slowing down the applied force is the mass of the vehicle. There is no acceleration.

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MicroBeta

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #716 on: November 27, 2017, 07:58:52 AM »
<snip>
Of course you can slow down but you can never decelerate.
<snip>
Isn’t slowing down literally the definition of decelerate.

Mike

Slowing down naturally from the end point of acceleration before constant speed kicks in is natural deceleration.
Didn't you just say "you can never decelerate"?  Now you say there is natural deceleration?  I'm confused.  Which is it?  Can you or can't you decelerate?  How do you go from a given speed to zero without deceleration? 

Mike
You only decelerate after going neutral at the very end of your acceleration, before it becomes a constant velocity/speed/mph.
I'm still wondering how you go from a given speed to zero without decelerating.  There has to be an applied force to cause the change in speed.

Mike
On a horizontal you reduce speed.
The applied force to cause a change in speed is atmospheric resistance and friction of surface against the mass that is on it. In terms of a vehicle touching the surface.
So, you have an applied force without an acceleration?
In terms of slowing down the applied force is the mass of the vehicle. There is no acceleration.
I'm trying to understand.  You're saying we have an applied force without an acceleration and that force is the mass of the object?  In denpressure F=m?
Since it costs 2.72¢ to produce a penny, putting in your 2¢ if really worth 5.44¢.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #717 on: November 27, 2017, 08:17:38 AM »

I'm trying to understand.  You're saying we have an applied force without an acceleration and that force is the mass of the object?  In denpressure F=m?
No I'm not.
You cannot get to a constant speed without acceleration.


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Badxtoss

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #718 on: November 27, 2017, 09:39:08 AM »


That's literally the definition of constant deceleration. The speed changes by the same amount in each unit of time.
There's no change in constant. Constant is without change.
Can I not be constantly in motion?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #719 on: November 27, 2017, 09:46:36 AM »


That's literally the definition of constant deceleration. The speed changes by the same amount in each unit of time.
There's no change in constant. Constant is without change.
Can I not be constantly in motion?
Yep.