Non-Euclidean Flat Earth

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Slemon

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Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« on: September 01, 2016, 01:50:14 PM »
Quick background theory:
One of the FE models out there posits the Earth is a non-Euclidean space. There is a lot to the background of this, but the simplest may be as follows: the distance from point A to point B will not be the straight-line distance.
Mathematically, Euclidean space is a set equipped with a metric: coordinates along with a calculation that tells you how far apart two coordinates are. In the Euclidean case, to get from (0,0) to (3,4) you can see it's just the hypotenuse of a right angled triangle with sides 3 and 4. You'd use Pythagoras' theorem.
In a non-Euclidean situation, this wouldn't be the function. In strictly abstract mathematics, d(a,b), the distance from a to b, could be defined as 0 if a=b, and 1 otherwise. That's called a totally disconnected space.
I got bored for a bit today, and figured out a typically workable metric for a flat Earth. It's possible there are calculation errors at some points, I quoted a number of results without proof so I may have overlooked some details, but the gist is unfortunately the following.
There might be ways to simplify, and unfortunately it's not too useful yet as we'd need a map of the Earth with coordinates marked, though I can tell you how to derive that map.

This is not a pitch for an FE model, it's no more than an illustration of how a non-Euclidean map might work.

First off:
The Earth is defined by the x and y axes, with the North Pole (for the sake of tradition) at 0, and the South at infinity. An infinite plane is used so that if you reach the South, you can come out the far side. Once the metric is used, the distance shouldn't actually be infinite. This is just our set.
Longitude is 0 along the line y=0, latitude is zero on the circle of radius 1 centred at the North pole.

Now then, our spectacularly awful looking metric. For points P1=(x1,y1), P2 = (x2,y2):

[jsTex]d(P_1,P_2) = \cos^{-1} \left( \sin \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_1^2 + y_1^2 -1}{2x_1} \right) \right) \sin \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_2^2 + y_2^2 -1}{2x_2} \right) \right) +\cos \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_1^2 + y_1^2 -1}{2x_1} \right) \right) \cos \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_2^2 + y_2^2 -1}{2x_2} \right) \right) \cos \left|\tan^{-1} \left( \frac{y_1}{x_1}  \right) - \tan^{-1} \left( \frac{y_2}{x_2} \right) \right| \right)[/jsTex]

The code, for those that might want to copy/paste it, is:
d(P_1,P_2) = \cos^{-1} \left( \sin \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_1^2 + y_1^2 -1}{2x_1} \right) \right) \sin \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_2^2 + y_2^2 -1}{2x_2} \right) \right) +\cos \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_1^2 + y_1^2 -1}{2x_1} \right) \right) \cos \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_2^2 + y_2^2 -1}{2x_2} \right) \right) \cos \left|\tan^{-1} \left( \frac{y_1}{x_1}  \right) - \tan^{-1} \left( \frac{y_2}{x_2} \right) \right| \right)

This is no more than an approximation. It simply comes from mapping the plane in question to a ball (using the stereographic projection), and finding the great circle distance between the resulting points. It's not perfect, as altitude isn't accounted for, and the Earth isn't a perfect sphere, but it's pretty close.
If you wanted to develop a map of the Earth, then you'd perform such a projection of the globe map, and calculate the distances between two points on its surface by means of the above rather than taking the straight-line distance. This seems reasonable, by Davis' model, as he has said the globe is a valid projection of the Earth's surface. This simply gives us a way to view it as a plane, as well as an idea of how distance might be calculated between two points, in this non-Euclidean space.
It's going to be difficult to work with points at and near the South pole, because the coordinates would be infinite and so would blur together, but equally not much information is lost because, viewed externally, the points nearby would seem absurdly stretched out.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 05:24:46 PM by Jane »
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Omega

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Re: Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2016, 01:51:04 PM »
Aka 'round earth'
Only thing round in FE is its circular logic.

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Crouton

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Re: Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2016, 01:55:36 PM »
You're the mathematician here so let me ask you this. Is calling the earth a non Euclidean surface the same thing as calling water dihydromonoxide?
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Slemon

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Re: Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2016, 02:15:50 PM »
Aka 'round earth'
You'd have to ask Davis for the details. From what I've gathered, his point of distinction is analogous to the heliocentric/geocentric distinction. if you really wanted you could happily construct a geocentric model, it's just a matter of reference frames, but you wouldn't be able to explain how or why things work.

You're the mathematician here so let me ask you this. Is calling the earth a non Euclidean surface the same thing as calling water dihydromonoxide?
Yes and no. under RET, yes, but under typical FET most models do say it's approximately Euclidean even on large scales.
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Omega

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Re: Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2016, 02:17:36 PM »
You're the mathematician here so let me ask you this. Is calling the earth a non Euclidean surface the same thing as calling water dihydromonoxide?

You only use that name if Water is in trouble...
Only thing round in FE is its circular logic.

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Omega

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Re: Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2016, 02:19:00 PM »
Aka 'round earth'
You'd have to ask Davis for the details. From what I've gathered, his point of distinction is analogous to the heliocentric/geocentric distinction. if you really wanted you could happily construct a geocentric model, it's just a matter of reference frames, but you wouldn't be able to explain how or why things work.

You're the mathematician here so let me ask you this. Is calling the earth a non Euclidean surface the same thing as calling water dihydromonoxide?
Yes and no. under RET, yes, but under typical FET most models do say it's approximately Euclidean even on large scales.

A geocentric model supposes a fixed point in space. An absolute frame of reference. While I am not a mathematician, what I have read of this 'non euclidan' stuff suggests relativity is still in play.
Only thing round in FE is its circular logic.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2016, 02:25:11 PM »
Aka 'round earth'
You'd have to ask Davis for the details. From what I've gathered, his point of distinction is analogous to the heliocentric/geocentric distinction. if you really wanted you could happily construct a geocentric model, it's just a matter of reference frames, but you wouldn't be able to explain how or why things work.

You're the mathematician here so let me ask you this. Is calling the earth a non Euclidean surface the same thing as calling water dihydromonoxide?
Yes and no. under RET, yes, but under typical FET most models do say it's approximately Euclidean even on large scales.

A geocentric model supposes a fixed point in space. An absolute frame of reference. While I am not a mathematician, what I have read of this 'non euclidan' stuff suggests relativity is still in play.

No, I think the word is inertial.  That sounds good. 

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Slemon

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Re: Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2016, 02:29:07 PM »
A geocentric model supposes a fixed point in space. An absolute frame of reference. While I am not a mathematician, what I have read of this 'non euclidan' stuff suggests relativity is still in play.
It doesn't inherently, any more than heliocentric supposes a fixed point in space. You could model the Earth as rotating around the Sun, or vice versa, just depending on reference frame.
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sokarul

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Re: Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2016, 06:14:03 PM »
Despite what john says, the earth's shape can be plotted in an xyz coordinate system.
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Omega

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Re: Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2016, 12:15:32 AM »
A geocentric model supposes a fixed point in space. An absolute frame of reference. While I am not a mathematician, what I have read of this 'non euclidan' stuff suggests relativity is still in play.
It doesn't inherently, any more than heliocentric supposes a fixed point in space. You could model the Earth as rotating around the Sun, or vice versa, just depending on reference frame.

Erm, what else does the word 'centric' means than 'in the middle'? The middle of what? The word 'centric' only makes sense if there is a fixed point of reference. In this case, the center. Which is where the Earth is placed in a Geocentric model.
Only thing round in FE is its circular logic.

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zork

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Re: Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2016, 12:34:20 AM »
 I see that there is a function but I don't have some math program in hand. With what I can plot something out from this function?
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

Re: Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2016, 01:08:21 AM »
Aka 'round earth'

Im with you on that. Listening to John Davis' craziness leads you to believe that he wants both a flat earth and a round earth so he wraps his flat earth around a sphere and calls it flat.

It is just plain stupid.

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Slemon

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Re: Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2016, 02:11:11 AM »
Despite what john says, the earth's shape can be plotted in an xyz coordinate system.
It just makes the metric much trickier to derive.

Erm, what else does the word 'centric' means than 'in the middle'? The middle of what? The word 'centric' only makes sense if there is a fixed point of reference. In this case, the center. Which is where the Earth is placed in a Geocentric model.
And where the Sun is in the heliocentric. Again, it all comes down to frame of reference, you could model either as true, but only heliocentric makes sense because we observe the consequences of rotation. Why does geocentric deserve this special treatment?

I see that there is a function but I don't have some math program in hand. With what I can plot something out from this function?
Use the link in the OP. As I said:
"To view the formula, written here in Latex, copy and paste the below into something like:
https://www.latex4technics.com/"
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Omega

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Re: Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2016, 02:18:20 AM »
Erm, what else does the word 'centric' means than 'in the middle'? The middle of what? The word 'centric' only makes sense if there is a fixed point of reference. In this case, the center. Which is where the Earth is placed in a Geocentric model.
And where the Sun is in the heliocentric. Again, it all comes down to frame of reference, you could model either as true, but only heliocentric makes sense because we observe the consequences of rotation. Why does geocentric deserve this special treatment?


But heliocentric is also inaccurate. Since it also implies a center of the universe, but in this case the Sun is placed in the center.

I don't know if we are talking about the same thing here.

I was talking about the literal meaning of the words geocentric and heliocentric, which describe a fixed universe with an absolute frame of reference.

This does not exist. There is no absolute center of the universe.

Every point in the universe is the center of the universe, as seen from that point.
Only thing round in FE is its circular logic.

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zork

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Re: Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2016, 02:20:22 AM »
I see that there is a function but I don't have some math program in hand. With what I can plot something out from this function?
Use the link in the OP. As I said:
"To view the formula, written here in Latex, copy and paste the below into something like:
https://www.latex4technics.com/"
  I can view formula but I am ignorant in ways how to make latex4technics to draw something using this formula. As I don't have any math program in my PC then I thought that I ask if someone can suggest some which can take this formula and I can play with it and see visualization.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
-
http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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Slemon

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Re: Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2016, 02:27:25 AM »
But heliocentric is also inaccurate. Since it also implies a center of the universe, but in this case the Sun is placed in the center.

I don't know if we are talking about the same thing here.

I was talking about the literal meaning of the words geocentric and heliocentric, which describe a fixed universe with an absolute frame of reference.

This does not exist. There is no absolute center of the universe.

Every point in the universe is the center of the universe, as seen from that point.
Fine, but people still describe the Earth as going around the Sun, when it's always possible to take a reference frame where that isn't the case. Semantics aside, the words are typically used more as an illustration of why some things happen. You can take a stationary Earth, but it doesn't explain retrograde motion: you can take a stationary Sun, and it does (though it makes other observations more questionable).
Regardless, I'm not too sure why this came up.

  I can view formula but I am ignorant in ways how to make latex4technics to draw something using this formula. As I don't have any math program in my PC then I thought that I ask if someone can suggest some which can take this formula and I can play with it and see visualization.
It's a metric, not a function to plot. There are four independent variables, I'm not sure how you could, beyond marking distances from an arbitrary point. There are plenty of graph plotters online, though.
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SpJunk

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Re: Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2016, 07:27:28 AM »
I see that there is a function but I don't have some math program in hand. With what I can plot something out from this function?
Use the link in the OP. As I said:
"To view the formula, written here in Latex, copy and paste the below into something like:
https://www.latex4technics.com/"
  I can view formula but I am ignorant in ways how to make latex4technics to draw something using this formula. As I don't have any math program in my PC then I thought that I ask if someone can suggest some which can take this formula and I can play with it and see visualization.

Let me try to simplify.

Flat plane is curved within plane, not in third dimension.
It means that on scaled map drawing one inch here and one inch there won't represent the same distance.

Even simpler thing can be shown how line is curved within line.
On ruler you have measures in inches (or centimeters).
It says 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, ...
Form 0 to 3 is 3 inches.
On line "curved within line" it is not.

From 0 to 1 is 1 inch,
from 0 to 2 is 2 inch,
from 0 to 3 is 4 inch,
from 0 to 4 is 8 inch,
from 0 to 5 is 16 inch,
from 0 to 6 is 32 inch,
...

So, from 3 to 4 is not 1 inch, it is 4,
and from 4 to 5 is not even 4 inch, it is 8.

(Instead of binary multiplication, we can use any other distribution for our line.)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 07:29:37 AM by SpJunk »
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein

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Re: Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2016, 02:24:12 PM »
[jsTex]d(P_1,P_2) = \cos^{-1} \left( \sin \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_1^2 + y_1^2 -1}{2x_1} \right) \right) \sin \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_2^2 + y_2^2 -1}{2x_2} \right) \right) +\cos \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_1^2 + y_1^2 -1}{2x_1} \right) \right) \cos \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_2^2 + y_2^2 -1}{2x_2} \right) \right) \cos \left|\tan^{-1} \left( \frac{y_1}{x_1}  \right) - \tan^{-1} \left( \frac{y_2}{x_2} \right) \right| \right)[/jsTex]

Use the jsTex bbcode!
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Re: Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2016, 02:28:06 PM »
Also very cool. I'm going to look at this a bit and see if I can find with it in my stuff.
So long and thanks for all the fish

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Slemon

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Re: Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2016, 05:23:55 PM »
[jsTex]d(P_1,P_2) = \cos^{-1} \left( \sin \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_1^2 + y_1^2 -1}{2x_1} \right) \right) \sin \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_2^2 + y_2^2 -1}{2x_2} \right) \right) +\cos \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_1^2 + y_1^2 -1}{2x_1} \right) \right) \cos \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_2^2 + y_2^2 -1}{2x_2} \right) \right) \cos \left|\tan^{-1} \left( \frac{y_1}{x_1}  \right) - \tan^{-1} \left( \frac{y_2}{x_2} \right) \right| \right)[/jsTex]

Use the jsTex bbcode!
Thanks!
I'll edit in a sec. I did try to see if the forum had anything like that, but I could only find an old thread, and the code from that seemed to have been removed judging by the preview.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!