Den Pressure - A Definable Hypothesis & Experiments (Scepti, iWitness)

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 08:01:53 AM

Quote from: Omega on August 29, 2016, 07:48:20 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 07:46:09 AM

Quote from: Omega on August 29, 2016, 07:37:06 AM

Let's take a step back and try to distill something out of this.

I'll do a Q&A with Scepti, and will answer for him. If he thinks I don't say what he means or if I am building a straw man, I'll no doubt hear that.

O: What is denpressure
S: Denpressure means that atmospheric pressure is the cause of gravity. The atmosphere pushing down on an object makes it fall.
O: But what if you remove the atmospheric pressure? Would there be gravity in a vacuum?
S: A vacuum does not exist, you can only lower the pressure but never remove the atmosphere from a container.
O: If the pressure is lowered in a chamber, will an object then become lighter?
S: No.
O: Why not?
S: Because there is atmospheric pressure built up in tiny pockets inside all matter
O: But if there is less pressure outside the object, why would the gravity on the object stay the same? Especially since any trapped atmosphere inside an object would extert a pressure outward (as evidenced by a balloon in a vacuum lower pressure environment?
S: <insert continuation of the discussion here>

I think this is the point where we are now. Care to answer/add to this?

You're  not even answering it correctly, so you're wasting your time.

I am trying to write this in good faith. If I was incorrect, please say so. I am witholding any and all debate from my side until I have a firm grasp of the discussion and it would help I think if we boil it down.

I did say so.

What did I get wrong?

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 28, 2016, 06:49:14 PM

If that slosh doesn't last very long, and I'm driving a car in a circle (let's say turning to the left), and as long as I do this, objects inside will tend to move toward the right side of the car, then how is that slosh lasting so long?

It's not a slosh effect when you're driving a car in a circle. It's a constant pressure effect upon your body.
The slosh effect will only kick in once you decelerate.

Quote from: Omega on August 29, 2016, 08:05:58 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 08:01:53 AM

Quote from: Omega on August 29, 2016, 07:48:20 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 07:46:09 AM

Quote from: Omega on August 29, 2016, 07:37:06 AM

Let's take a step back and try to distill something out of this.

I'll do a Q&A with Scepti, and will answer for him. If he thinks I don't say what he means or if I am building a straw man, I'll no doubt hear that.

O: What is denpressure
S: Denpressure means that atmospheric pressure is the cause of gravity. The atmosphere pushing down on an object makes it fall.
O: But what if you remove the atmospheric pressure? Would there be gravity in a vacuum?
S: A vacuum does not exist, you can only lower the pressure but never remove the atmosphere from a container.
O: If the pressure is lowered in a chamber, will an object then become lighter?
S: No.
O: Why not?
S: Because there is atmospheric pressure built up in tiny pockets inside all matter
O: But if there is less pressure outside the object, why would the gravity on the object stay the same? Especially since any trapped atmosphere inside an object would extert a pressure outward (as evidenced by a balloon in a vacuum lower pressure environment?
S: <insert continuation of the discussion here>

I think this is the point where we are now. Care to answer/add to this?

You're  not even answering it correctly, so you're wasting your time.

I am trying to write this in good faith. If I was incorrect, please say so. I am witholding any and all debate from my side until I have a firm grasp of the discussion and it would help I think if we boil it down.

I did say so.

What did I get wrong?

You don't even know what you're saying, so I won't bother telling you what you got wrong.

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 28, 2016, 11:48:45 PM

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 28, 2016, 06:49:14 PM

If that slosh doesn't last very long, and I'm driving a car in a circle (let's say turning to the left), and as long as I do this, objects inside will tend to move toward the right side of the car, then how is that slosh lasting so long?

It's not a slosh effect when you're driving a car in a circle. It's a constant pressure effect upon your body.
The slosh effect will only kick in once you decelerate.

Is there a pressure difference between the left side of the interior and the right side of the interior?  Why does the pressure not equalize?

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 08:18:37 AM

Quote from: Omega on August 29, 2016, 08:05:58 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 08:01:53 AM

Quote from: Omega on August 29, 2016, 07:48:20 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 07:46:09 AM

Quote from: Omega on August 29, 2016, 07:37:06 AM

Let's take a step back and try to distill something out of this.

I'll do a Q&A with Scepti, and will answer for him. If he thinks I don't say what he means or if I am building a straw man, I'll no doubt hear that.

O: What is denpressure
S: Denpressure means that atmospheric pressure is the cause of gravity. The atmosphere pushing down on an object makes it fall.
O: But what if you remove the atmospheric pressure? Would there be gravity in a vacuum?
S: A vacuum does not exist, you can only lower the pressure but never remove the atmosphere from a container.
O: If the pressure is lowered in a chamber, will an object then become lighter?
S: No.
O: Why not?
S: Because there is atmospheric pressure built up in tiny pockets inside all matter
O: But if there is less pressure outside the object, why would the gravity on the object stay the same? Especially since any trapped atmosphere inside an object would extert a pressure outward (as evidenced by a balloon in a vacuum lower pressure environment?
S: <insert continuation of the discussion here>

I think this is the point where we are now. Care to answer/add to this?

You're  not even answering it correctly, so you're wasting your time.

I am trying to write this in good faith. If I was incorrect, please say so. I am witholding any and all debate from my side until I have a firm grasp of the discussion and it would help I think if we boil it down.

I did say so.

What did I get wrong?

You don't even know what you're saying, so I won't bother telling you what you got wrong.

I am beginning to suspect I did get it right, but now you see it summed up like this, it doesn't make sense to you either.

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 29, 2016, 08:20:13 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 28, 2016, 11:48:45 PM

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 28, 2016, 06:49:14 PM

If that slosh doesn't last very long, and I'm driving a car in a circle (let's say turning to the left), and as long as I do this, objects inside will tend to move toward the right side of the car, then how is that slosh lasting so long?

It's not a slosh effect when you're driving a car in a circle. It's a constant pressure effect upon your body.
The slosh effect will only kick in once you decelerate.

Is there a pressure difference between the left side of the interior and the right side of the interior?  Why does the pressure not equalize?

Because it's angled.

I said you could name them so you know what you're dealing with. By doing this it means you  have a better chance to grasp it all and fit it together.

But okay. So, the next question: what are solids, what are liquids, what are gases, and what is plasma? As in, how does the matter behaves in a solid, how does it behave in a liquid, etc.?

If someone can actually give me proof that inertia actually does something to real effect, then I'll accept that as well.

What I won't accept, is people saying inertia just is. I won't accept people saying inertia is an objects resistance to movement and then an object staying in motion.

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 28, 2016, 12:04:32 PM

Because the balloon was NOT drawn to the pump. The balloon expanded against the molecules still left inside the chamber externally to the balloon and it is now acting  as a pressure plug for the hole.
It shows that a push on push is in effect.

I don't see the balloon covering the hole. All I see is the remaining air inside the balloon expanding under the decreased pressure inside the chamber. I see no proof of denpressure in this video.

Further regarding evacuation chambers, I still don't understand why objects weigh the same in low pressure systems.

The last time I asked, you gave me a one-word answer.

"Expansion"

Do you think air is trapped inside the scale, giving a false measurement?

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 08:27:08 AM

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 29, 2016, 08:20:13 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 28, 2016, 11:48:45 PM

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 28, 2016, 06:49:14 PM

If that slosh doesn't last very long, and I'm driving a car in a circle (let's say turning to the left), and as long as I do this, objects inside will tend to move toward the right side of the car, then how is that slosh lasting so long?

It's not a slosh effect when you're driving a car in a circle. It's a constant pressure effect upon your body.
The slosh effect will only kick in once you decelerate.

Is there a pressure difference between the left side of the interior and the right side of the interior?  Why does the pressure not equalize?

Because it's angled.

What is angled?

Quote from: Omega on August 29, 2016, 08:22:55 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 08:18:37 AM

Quote from: Omega on August 29, 2016, 08:05:58 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 08:01:53 AM

Quote from: Omega on August 29, 2016, 07:48:20 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 07:46:09 AM

Quote from: Omega on August 29, 2016, 07:37:06 AM

Let's take a step back and try to distill something out of this.

I'll do a Q&A with Scepti, and will answer for him. If he thinks I don't say what he means or if I am building a straw man, I'll no doubt hear that.

O: What is denpressure
S: Denpressure means that atmospheric pressure is the cause of gravity. The atmosphere pushing down on an object makes it fall.
O: But what if you remove the atmospheric pressure? Would there be gravity in a vacuum?
S: A vacuum does not exist, you can only lower the pressure but never remove the atmosphere from a container.
O: If the pressure is lowered in a chamber, will an object then become lighter?
S: No.
O: Why not?
S: Because there is atmospheric pressure built up in tiny pockets inside all matter
O: But if there is less pressure outside the object, why would the gravity on the object stay the same? Especially since any trapped atmosphere inside an object would extert a pressure outward (as evidenced by a balloon in a vacuum lower pressure environment?
S: <insert continuation of the discussion here>

I think this is the point where we are now. Care to answer/add to this?

You're  not even answering it correctly, so you're wasting your time.

I am trying to write this in good faith. If I was incorrect, please say so. I am witholding any and all debate from my side until I have a firm grasp of the discussion and it would help I think if we boil it down.

I did say so.

What did I get wrong?

You don't even know what you're saying, so I won't bother telling you what you got wrong.

I am beginning to suspect I did get it right, but now you see it summed up like this, it doesn't make sense to you either.

I'm not going to spend too much time playing tit for tat with you. All I will tell you is - I've spent a lot of time explaining it. You've spent a lot of time reading it all and yet you still haven't understood any of it.

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 08:01:14 AM

I said you could name them so you know what you're dealing with. By doing this it means you  have a better chance to grasp it all and fit it together.

Ok then. So, for the bits of matter I'll call them micateria (after the latin words for bit and matter, mica and materia) and the jawbreakers will be called strateria (after the latin words for layer and matter, stratum and materia). Why Latin? Why not. And yes, done in google translate.

So, back to the question:

Quote

But okay. So, the next question: what are solids, what are liquids, what are gases, and what is plasma? As in, how does the matter behaves in a solid, how does it behave in a liquid, etc.?

If air pressure causes gravity, why wouldn't an object weigh less when the pressure is lowered?

If someone can actually give me proof that inertia actually does something to real effect, then I'll accept that as well.

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 07:16:16 AM

If someone can actually give me proof that inertia actually does something to real effect, then I'll accept that as well.

What I won't accept, is people saying inertia just is. I won't accept people saying inertia is an objects resistance to movement and then an object staying in motion.

Inertia is what it does.  Inertia is why objects at rest stay at rest and why objects in motion stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force.  Please note that I'm referring to the objects as a whole, not the individual molecules that make up the objects.

Here is a video with seven demonstrations of inertia.

Quote from: Omega on August 29, 2016, 10:44:41 AM

If air pressure causes gravity, why wouldn't an object weigh less when the pressure is lowered?

If I recall correctly, it's because the scales by which you're measuring the weight of an object are affected by the lowered pressure. I might be wrong, but I'm fairly sure I do remember that discussion.

Quote from: TheRealBillNye on August 28, 2016, 06:02:10 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 28, 2016, 12:04:32 PM

Because the balloon was NOT drawn to the pump. The balloon expanded against the molecules still left inside the chamber externally to the balloon and it is now acting  as a pressure plug for the hole.
It shows that a push on push is in effect.

I don't see the balloon covering the hole. All I see is the remaining air inside the balloon expanding under the decreased pressure inside the chamber. I see no proof of denpressure in this video.

Further regarding evacuation chambers, I still don't understand why objects weigh the same in low pressure systems.

The last time I asked, you gave me a one-word answer.

"Expansion"

Do you think air is trapped inside the scale, giving a false measurement?

Do you agree that scales are manufactured and set under atmospheric conditions and not extreme low pressure conditions?

Quote from: markjo on August 29, 2016, 09:59:07 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 07:16:16 AM

If someone can actually give me proof that inertia actually does something to real effect, then I'll accept that as well.

What I won't accept, is people saying inertia just is. I won't accept people saying inertia is an objects resistance to movement and then an object staying in motion.

Inertia is what it does.  Inertia is why objects at rest stay at rest and why objects in motion stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force.  Please note that I'm referring to the objects as a whole, not the individual molecules that make up the objects.

Here is a video with seven demonstrations of inertia.

It literally makes no sense as a word.

Solids are densely packed strateria. Liquids are densley packed micateria peeled from the layers of the densley packed strateria under ultra frequent vibration.
Gases are expanded micateria derived from  densley packed micateria that were under ultra frequent vibration.
Plasma is a variation of them all.

Bullshit.  You know the steel wheel is harder to turn than the identical looking aluminium wheel.

And you know that inertia does not do anything at all .  It is a word. 

You know the word describes something useful to humans

Strateria? Micateria?

Please define these words, they aren't in my dictionary.

When the solid particles 'peel' off, where do the peels go?

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 10:58:53 AM

Solids are densely packed strateria. Liquids are densley packed micateria peeled from the layers of the densley packed strateria under ultra frequent vibration.
Gases are expanded micateria derived from  densley packed micateria that were under ultra frequent vibration.
Plasma is a variation of them all.

Strateria? Micateria?

Please define these words, they aren't in my dictionary.

When the solid particles 'peel' off, where do the peels go?

Quote from: Jane on August 29, 2016, 10:59:57 AM

Quote from: Omega on August 29, 2016, 10:44:41 AM

If air pressure causes gravity, why wouldn't an object weigh less when the pressure is lowered?

If I recall correctly, it's because the scales by which you're measuring the weight of an object are affected by the lowered pressure. I might be wrong, but I'm fairly sure I do remember that discussion.

How would the springs be affected again?

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 29, 2016, 09:26:35 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 08:27:08 AM

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 29, 2016, 08:20:13 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 28, 2016, 11:48:45 PM

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 28, 2016, 06:49:14 PM

If that slosh doesn't last very long, and I'm driving a car in a circle (let's say turning to the left), and as long as I do this, objects inside will tend to move toward the right side of the car, then how is that slosh lasting so long?

It's not a slosh effect when you're driving a car in a circle. It's a constant pressure effect upon your body.
The slosh effect will only kick in once you decelerate.

Is there a pressure difference between the left side of the interior and the right side of the interior?  Why does the pressure not equalize?

Because it's angled.

What is angled?

The car is angled as it continually circles.

Quote from: Master_Evar on August 29, 2016, 09:28:21 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 08:01:14 AM

I said you could name them so you know what you're dealing with. By doing this it means you  have a better chance to grasp it all and fit it together.

Ok then. So, for the bits of matter I'll call them micateria (after the latin words for bit and matter, mica and materia) and the jawbreakers will be called strateria (after the latin words for layer and matter, stratum and materia). Why Latin? Why not. And yes, done in google translate.

So, back to the question:

Quote

But okay. So, the next question: what are solids, what are liquids, what are gases, and what is plasma? As in, how does the matter behaves in a solid, how does it behave in a liquid, etc.?

Solids are densely packed strateria. Liquids are densley packed micateria peeled from the layers of the densley packed strateria under ultra frequent vibration.
Gases are expanded micateria derived from  densley packed micateria that were under ultra frequent vibration.
Plasma is a variation of them all.

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 10:49:52 AM

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 29, 2016, 09:26:35 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 08:27:08 AM

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 29, 2016, 08:20:13 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 28, 2016, 11:48:45 PM

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 28, 2016, 06:49:14 PM

If that slosh doesn't last very long, and I'm driving a car in a circle (let's say turning to the left), and as long as I do this, objects inside will tend to move toward the right side of the car, then how is that slosh lasting so long?

It's not a slosh effect when you're driving a car in a circle. It's a constant pressure effect upon your body.
The slosh effect will only kick in once you decelerate.

Is there a pressure difference between the left side of the interior and the right side of the interior?  Why does the pressure not equalize?

Because it's angled.

What is angled?

The car is angled as it continually circles.

Nope, that's not it.  I can get the same result placing objects inside a level box mounted on the end of a beam attached to a swivel at the other end and turning it.

Are you sure about this pressure difference?  Turning left, which side would have the higher pressure?

Quote from: markjo on August 29, 2016, 09:59:07 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 07:16:16 AM

If someone can actually give me proof that inertia actually does something to real effect, then I'll accept that as well.

What I won't accept, is people saying inertia just is. I won't accept people saying inertia is an objects resistance to movement and then an object staying in motion.

Inertia is what it does.  Inertia is why objects at rest stay at rest and why objects in motion stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force.  Please note that I'm referring to the objects as a whole, not the individual molecules that make up the objects.

Here is a video with seven demonstrations of inertia.

It literally makes no sense as a word.

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 10:58:53 AM

Quote from: Master_Evar on August 29, 2016, 09:28:21 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 08:01:14 AM

I said you could name them so you know what you're dealing with. By doing this it means you  have a better chance to grasp it all and fit it together.

Ok then. So, for the bits of matter I'll call them micateria (after the latin words for bit and matter, mica and materia) and the jawbreakers will be called strateria (after the latin words for layer and matter, stratum and materia). Why Latin? Why not. And yes, done in google translate.

So, back to the question:

Quote

But okay. So, the next question: what are solids, what are liquids, what are gases, and what is plasma? As in, how does the matter behaves in a solid, how does it behave in a liquid, etc.?

Solids are densely packed strateria. Liquids are densley packed micateria peeled from the layers of the densley packed strateria under ultra frequent vibration.
Gases are expanded micateria derived from  densley packed micateria that were under ultra frequent vibration.
Plasma is a variation of them all.

So in your model, as in my model, heat energy is stored as vibrations. If something is hot enough, it vibrates so much that it releases itself from the solid (or liquid) and moves freely. So, I also assume that when a strateria is connected to another strateria, they cannot move freely but are bound in place unless you rip them apart or heat them up, but free micateria (that is not part of a strateria) can float around and glide between other micateria and strateria (it is not bound in place)?

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 29, 2016, 11:26:13 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 10:49:52 AM

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 29, 2016, 09:26:35 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 29, 2016, 08:27:08 AM

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 29, 2016, 08:20:13 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 28, 2016, 11:48:45 PM

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 28, 2016, 06:49:14 PM

If that slosh doesn't last very long, and I'm driving a car in a circle (let's say turning to the left), and as long as I do this, objects inside will tend to move toward the right side of the car, then how is that slosh lasting so long?

It's not a slosh effect when you're driving a car in a circle. It's a constant pressure effect upon your body.
The slosh effect will only kick in once you decelerate.

Is there a pressure difference between the left side of the interior and the right side of the interior?  Why does the pressure not equalize?

Because it's angled.

What is angled?

The car is angled as it continually circles.

Nope, that's not it.  I can get the same result placing objects inside a level box mounted on the end of a beam attached to a swivel at the other end and turning it.

Are you sure about this pressure difference?  Turning left, which side would have the higher pressure?

We are talking about the car. Do you now want to talk about a box on a beam?