Logical Improbabilities of a god

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Ubuntu

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Logical Improbabilities of a god
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2006, 11:55:16 AM »
Quote from: "jaybird39"
It is greed of an eternal paradise, and fear of an eternal punishment that motivates Christians, Islam, and all other monotheistic religions to be good. This shows just how evil people are at heart.


I would argue that only the most fundamental are motivated purely by scripture, however, the more liberal believers (sometimes called "cherry pickers"), although are more ethically independent, have a warped sense of morality.

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jaybird39

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Logical Improbabilities of a god
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2006, 12:21:00 PM »
very good point

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James

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« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2006, 12:39:13 PM »
Two words regarding an omnibenevolent God: Euthyphro Dilemna. This trumps the whole "problem of suffering" argument. It's just the biggest logical God-debunker in the book, look it up.

Of course, the Bible never actually says or implies that Yahweh is omnibenevolent.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Oliwoli

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« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2006, 01:52:16 PM »
Global Warming as caused by pollution is a fairly disputed issue, it just isnt reported in newspapers for the same reason that "man donates money to charity" isnt.

And as for "it feels nice to do good things" that is an evolutionary characteristic, and so you are not truly questioning WHY it feels good, you are just accpeting it as a fact. And there are a lot of times that you would feel better having "sinned" than having done the right thing. With only personal satisfaction as a moral guideline, there will come a point that something is good enough for sinning top be a better option
ny Conspiricy without a secret society more than 1000 years old isn't worth thinking about

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Ubuntu

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Logical Improbabilities of a god
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2006, 02:10:04 PM »
Quote from: "Oliwoli"
Global Warming as caused by pollution is a fairly disputed issue, it just isnt reported in newspapers for the same reason that "man donates money to charity" isnt.

And as for "it feels nice to do good things" that is an evolutionary characteristic, and so you are not truly questioning WHY it feels good...



Actually, that's precisely what we're doing.

Quote from: "Oliwoli"
And there are a lot of times that you would feel better having "sinned" than having done the right thing. With only personal satisfaction as a moral guideline, there will come a point that something is good enough for sinning top be a better option.


Personal satisfaction isn't our moral guideline, what an obtuse claim to make. Rational thought is what most atheists use for ethics and morality, rather than scripture or primitive impulses.

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jaybird39

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Logical Improbabilities of a god
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2006, 02:33:48 PM »
Euthyphro, nice philosophy from plato. I like it.

It pretty much covers one aspect of my views that debunk the existence of god.

If god is good, then why is he good? Did he create it, if so he is niether good nor bad, if he did not then his omnipotence is in question as he has a higher moral standard to observe and adhere to.

So either the christian is full of shit, or we have a serious paradox to deal with. I choose the former.

side note:
Omnibenevolence, generally means the complete innate kindness. the statements that god is good in and of itself is a load of crap since he commits acts of hatred all over the scripture, and this is impossible for an all good god.

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James

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Logical Improbabilities of a god
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2006, 04:09:31 PM »
Quote from: "jaybird39"

side note:
Omnibenevolence, generally means the complete innate kindness. the statements that god is good in and of itself is a load of crap since he commits acts of hatred all over the scripture, and this is impossible for an all good god.


Though we can hardly claim to comprehensively define "good" in any meaningful sort of way in this context. How do we know that by killing sinners God wouldn't be acting in the most loving possible way? Who says what is absolute moral good?
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Ubuntu

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Logical Improbabilities of a god
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2006, 05:00:11 PM »
Quote from: "Dogplatter"
Two words regarding an omnibenevolent God: Euthyphro Dilemna. This trumps the whole "problem of suffering" argument. It's just the biggest logical God-debunker in the book, look it up.

Of course, the Bible never actually says or implies that Yahweh is omnibenevolent.


As a matter of coincidence, I just read that dialog a few days ago (I'm reading Phaedo presently). At the time I did not equate piety with goodness...  I still don't, but now I see how the discussion (which ended without a conclusion) pertains to the existence of God.


Side note: a lot of theists today are neo-taoists.

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beast

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« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2006, 05:17:32 PM »
Quote from: "Oliwoli"
The problem with Atheism is that it has no inherent reason for morality, other thanh evasion of punishment. While for example Christianity preaches eternal hell fire for sinners, which is perhaps as reprehensable. It is still important for there to be an "incentive" for morality.


This is completely false.  Harvard biologist Marc Hauser in his book Moral Minds: How Nature Designed our Universal Sense of Right and Wrong clearly demonstrates that people have the same set of universal morals regardless of culture or religious belief.  He goes on to demonstrate that religious beliefs actually cloud those natural morals (they don't make them go away, they just confuse them).  I suggest you read this book because it's a clear contradiction of your view.  I'd be very interested to actually see some evidence that supports your view, because I very much doubt that there is any.

I love this quote from Albert Einstein (another Atheist):

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Quote

And on the subject of fundamentalism, you are using different meaning of the word. Fundamentalism as oposed to evidence is different to Fundamentalism as oposed to Liberalism.

I myself am a Liberal Christian, and i take philosophy and actively question my religion. Religion in itself is not wrong, i feel. It is only certain fundamental (as oposed to liberal) groups that give it a bad name.


You've completely misunderstood what I was saying.  I think it was actually pretty clear.  

Quote from: "I"
It is clear that the religious problems in the world are not created by "fundamentalists" but by religion in general.


I fail to see how you could misunderstand my point when it's that clear.  After that statement, I went on to redefine "fundamentalism" to a degree that is relevant to what I'm arguing.  I knew that it wasn't the typical definition and I didn't claim that it was.  In fact I assumed that people knew what the typical definition of "fundamentalist" was, otherwise that paragraph didn't make sense.

Quote

With the belief that existance ends after death, a person might as well be as bad as he likes, since it wont effect him.

Global Warming (if it does actually exist) is not a true atheists problem. An atheist wont be around when the world freezes, and wont be punished for being irresponsible.


Again false.  If you're going to make these accusations about my religious belief (or lack of) then why don't you back it up with some evidence.  There is no doubt that most negative actions in our life lead to negative consequences - that's why they're deemed negative.  Just because we understand what our emotions are, it doesn't make them any less real.  We understand that our tvs work by firing electrons at a screen (or however plasma and lcd screens work) but it doesn't stop us from enjoying the image.  Our natural sense of morality actually helps our lives.  When we do good deeds we naturally feel good about ourselves and when we do bad deeds we naturally feel bad.  It doesn't matter where we're going when we die.  I think, in fact, that atheists have a much stronger respect for human rights and our environment because we understand our amazing it is and our precious life really is.

Quote from: "Emily Dickson"
That it will never come again
Is what makes life so sweet.


Finally on the question of global warming.  I work for the largest environmental charity in Australia.  Of the people I work with, only one has  religious beliefs and the vast majority are also atheists.  I would be amazed to see any evidence that actually backs up your claims that atheists are less likely to care about the environment than religious people.  Let me put it like this;  Which country produces the most amount of green house gas emissions?  

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/env_co2_emi-environment-co2-emissions

Per Captia
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/env_co2_emi_percap-environment-co2-emissions-per-capita

The US is, of course, on top.  Now is the US a religious country, or a non religious country?  According to this statistic, 90% of American's are religious.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_rel-religion-religions

Are you saying that the 10% of atheists are responsible for America's greenhouse gas emissions?  Can you back that up with any evidence?

If we return to the per capita greenhouse gas emissions for a moment, we'll notice that the US is only 5th, but more importantly, we should notice the top 5 and how they relate to this argument.

1. Qatar
2. United Arab Emirates
3. Kuwait
4. Bahrain
5  USA

All strongly religious countries.  Not that I'm necessarily saying that there is a relationship between religious beliefs and harm to the environment, there could be a relationship, and from my personal experience I would believe atheists are more likely to care about the environment, but what is clear is that your statement that atheists don't care about global warming (to infer that religious people do) is completely false.  I've put forward some strong evidence to show that this is the case, now lets see you counter that - and counter it with evidence, not opinion.

Finally (and I mean it this time), on the question of if global warming actually exists.  It is a very easy experiement to show that higher carbon levels in the atmosphere create higher temperatures.  There is overwhelming evidence that shows this is the case.  In fact you can probably prove it yourself if you fill a bottle with CO2 and another with normal air and have a thermometer in both and leave them in the sun - see which gets warmer.  There is also overwhelming evidence that the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere are increasing.  While this is harder for an individual to test, it's easy for scientists to test, and I would love to see somebody claiming that this isn't actually the case.  With that in mind, the evidence for global warming is so strong, it is surely scientific fact.

Here is a graph of the measured carbon levels in the atmosphere and the measured average temperature change for the last 1000 years:



The source for that image:

http://www.pacifichydro.com.au/Classroom/ClimateChange/tabid/95/Default.aspx

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Ubuntu

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Logical Improbabilities of a god
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2006, 05:30:53 PM »
Beast, you have the patience and ambition of a saint. I admire you thoroughly.

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jaybird39

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« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2006, 05:35:47 PM »
yeah what beast said:

Ditto:
ditto:
ditto:

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jaybird39

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Logical Improbabilities of a god
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2006, 05:48:06 PM »
Quote from: "Dogplatter"
Quote from: "jaybird39"

side note:
Omnibenevolence, generally means the complete innate kindness. the statements that god is good in and of itself is a load of crap since he commits acts of hatred all over the scripture, and this is impossible for an all good god.


Though we can hardly claim to comprehensively define "good" in any meaningful sort of way in this context. How do we know that by killing sinners God wouldn't be acting in the most loving possible way? Who says what is absolute moral good?


Welll, it seems that if I were to do the same thing, I would feel bad about doing it, and I would feel that I was a worthless piece of doggie doo.

This is coming from a veteran that takes the job of killing men very seriously, and only when necessary. I do not see killing a child whom has yet to develop a conscience mind (under 3) as having absolutely any morally proper motivation. The only reason a child like that should ever be killed is if his adult captors strap a boobie trap that will kill him anyway on him, and he is running towards you.

Still then, I would have nightmares for years.

Seems to me that god did not tell me anything that I did not already know.

Good is a pretty straightforward concept.Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out

Logical Improbabilities of a god
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2006, 11:23:27 AM »
Quote from: "beast"
I don't really accept Buddhism as a religion, or at least, I'm talking about theistic religions. Albert Einstein called himself religious and if people are to hold those "religious" beliefs then I'm happy to tolerate them, in fact I feel the same way about the world. I'm sorry that wasn't clear to you. If you want to argue that "religions" where you don't believe in anything supernatural in some way validate supernatural views then put that argument forward, but otherwise I think your point is completely irrelevant.


Ok, now we're getting somewhere.  So what you meant by religion is a theistic belief.  We're now at "theistic beliefs require unquestioning faith" which is entirely much less presumptuous than saying "religion requires unquestioning faith".

Unquestioning faith is also very broad.  In theistic religions, you obviously have to believe that the gods and principles that are present in the doctrine and ideal set are true.  Being atheistic, you obviously assume that there is no such thing, much like theistic believers assume the contrary.

Surely an atheist has an "unquestioning faith" in the belief that there is no God or supernatural beings which play a part in human life in the same vein as a theist has an "unquestioning faith" that there is such beings.  Since it is impossible to know one way or another, it is, infact, established as a belief in both ways.  Within this way, a theist's "unquestioning faith" is more or less the same as an atheist's "unquestioning faith".

If both unquestioning faiths are equivalent, then by your logic in your first reply, both atheism and theism are inherently flawed, which is not a very pleasant conclusion.

Now, we need to re-establish what is meant by unquestioning faith.  Something more specific.
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"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Logical Improbabilities of a god
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2006, 11:41:21 AM »
Quote from: "skeptical scientist"
WTF


Something that cannot be said without Dubya.

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jaybird39

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Logical Improbabilities of a god
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2006, 01:00:41 PM »
In reality the only true thought is to take an agnostic point of view. To not know, and to remain in an open to the possibility that there might just be a god.

However, all of the present tangible facts, and scientific testing points to the opposite, which leads many tot he conclusion that there is no deity.

The only danger in this position is to not accept it upon the actual discovery if we do actually discover god. I mean really discover him, like see, feel or touch.

To worship a god without actually knowing of his existance can be dangerous according tot he different religions. If you worship the wrong deity, or do it in an inappropriate way you are in mortal danger, but if you are ignorant (not meaning it in a bad way) you still have a chance.

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beast

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Logical Improbabilities of a god
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2006, 04:48:38 PM »
Yeah obviously we can't know for sure that God does not exist.  The Futurama episode comes to mind where Bender gets shot out into space after the battle with the space pirates and then becomes a god, and then meets God.  God says in that episode that when you do a good job nobody thinks you did anything at all.  The same philosophy is put forward in the Tao Te Ching where it says that a good ruler is one who makes the people under him think that the idea was theirs.  That's obviously a very hard view on God to counter and even Richard Dawkins calls himself technically an agnostic or a de facto atheist.  Because an atheists view is based on reason and looking at the evidence, we have to say that we accept there is a possibility that god exists to the same extent that we accept there is a possibility that the invisible spaghetti monster exists.  I don't think there are any atheists who actually would say that they know that God does not exist in a literal definition of the statement but I also think there are plenty, including myself, who see absolutely no reason to believe in God anymore than than we see a reason to believe in any other mythological being and we're happy to make the sure statement that God doesn't exist because we see the probabilities of God existing as so low that it shouldn't be accept by anybody rational.

You can call me an agnostic if you like, but keep in mind that I'm as agnostic about the possibilities that you're actually a trained bear that has been taught how to type as I am towards the existence of God.

Logical Improbabilities of a god
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2006, 04:52:44 PM »
Quote from: "mjk"
why dont you just marry dawkins beast?  :P


He can't.  Dawkins is straight.

Never mind, eh, Master Beast?

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Knight

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« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2006, 07:40:52 PM »
Quote from: "beast"
The Futurama episode comes to mind where Bender gets shot out into space after the battle with the space pirates and then becomes a god, and then meets God.


That episode owns.

But about the other stuff, I think that many people might actually have a good reason to believe that a god exists, so I think it's probably unwise to simply claim that anybody who isn't agnostic isn't rational.
ooyakasha!

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beast

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« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2006, 01:48:49 AM »
And what is that good reason?

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Knight

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« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2006, 06:42:18 AM »
I'd say anybody who has had a divine revelation, so to speak, has pretty good reason for believing in a god.
ooyakasha!

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beast

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« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2006, 06:47:15 AM »
Only if what they say has happened to them really has, and I will believe that when you present some evidence for that actually happening.

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Oliwoli

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« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2006, 03:14:47 PM »
Wow, that was quite a rant you had at me earlier.
I very probably am flawed in my earlier logic, and i dont realy have much evidence to back myself up.
I'll rephrase my point so its clearer. I understand that Atheists can feel good about themselves by doing good, and bad when they do bad.
However, there are bad actions you can do that make you feel good. The more good you feel from doing a bad action, the less you are inclined to care about morality. In (some) religion however, the threat of hell is as bad as it is possible to be, and so there is no enjoyable bad deed that can "cancel it out"
Does that make more sense, or am i just repeating myself and not realising it.
If I am, sorry
ny Conspiricy without a secret society more than 1000 years old isn't worth thinking about

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Knight

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Logical Improbabilities of a god
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2006, 03:59:14 PM »
Quote from: "beast"
Only if what they say has happened to them really has, and I will believe that when you present some evidence for that actually happening.


They don't need to present information for you.  They can just go along believing what they believe and letting you believe what you believe.  And they would not be irrational.  It's foolish to claim that they are irrational if they actually have a reason for their belief.
ooyakasha!